Grading the 2010 Flyers: Kimmo Timonen
by Travis Hughes on Aug 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT
in Grading the Flyers
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Diving back into our Grading the Flyers series, today we take a look at Kimmo Timonen. And really, what negative things can we say about Kimmo? He's a workhorse. One of the most underrated players on the Flyers and probably in the entire NHL. Without him, the Flyers defense goes from top 5 in the league to just plain mediocre.
I'd argue that Timonen meant more to the 2010 Flyers than just about any other player on the roster.
I'm not going to try to make the argument that Kimmo is more important to the Flyers than Chris Pronger or any of the other Flyers defenseman, because obviously, with a defensive unit, every player has their role and every player is important.
I think the reason I respect Timonen so much is that he performs his role quietly, almost behind the scenes. He goes completely unnoticed, while guys like Pronger are similarly dominant while also being the center of attention. Timonen doesn't hold the spotlight, and as a solid defensive defenseman, that's a compliment. You aren't supposed to notice him and you don't.
He just puts in 20-plus minutes consistently every night. He doesn't do anything else. He just plays hockey very, very well. There's not much to say about Timonen other than that. He gets an A.
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Oh that picture, that picture. Kimmo bullied by 20 Cent and B-B-B… seriously, what’s that guy’s name? I forgot it cause I haven’t used it in ages.
I’m giving an A, btw.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
I love Kimmo, and I have to give him an A. He’s so solid, he’s subtle but yet so effective. And I still maintain that his empty net goal against Boston in December a couple of game before the Winter Classic is one of the prettiest empty netters I’ve ever seen.
Just in case somebody needs to refresh their memory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbenVNMDn08
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He should have showed up to the field goal contest the Caps and Pens were having at Heinz field and just owned everyone.
Is this the right room for an argument?
the fact that he finished ’09 as a 2 shows how misleading the +/ stat really is.
A+. Hope he retires here.
Fighter of the Nightman.
Champion of the Sun.
wow, post fail.
In summary:
(finished 2) stat is useless)
(+/
Fighter of the Nightman.
Champion of the Sun.
I suck.
Fighter of the Nightman.
Champion of the Sun.
Don’t feel bad, I don’t think there’s an easy way around the formatting shortcuts… So if you have 2 -‘s in your post you’re stuck with the strikeouts in between them
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
At least you’re the fighter of the nightman, champion of the sun, and a master of karate and friendship for everyone
by tmurder on Aug 3, 2010 2:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Calling him a solid defensive defenseman sounds like you too are underrating him, haha. He’s a great all-around defenseman.
by tmurder on Aug 3, 2010 2:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I actually voted B. Don’t get me wrong I think Kimmo had a very good season, but not sure it was a season worth $7 million.
That’s the going rate for a excellent defenseman these days. You want to good stuff? Gotta pay.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
He is right though, Timonen didn’t have a $6.3 cap hit type of season numbers wise. So, depending how you want to grade, a B is valid.
His advanced stats are actually a little weaker than Coburn’s. And Coburn was stuck playing with one of Krajicek/Bartulis/Parent/OKT/Syvret 35% of the time at even strength while Timonen only spent about 10% of his time with Krajicek(9%)/Bartulis/Parent and never had to suffer through any OKT time. I am by no means saying that Coburn is better than Timonen, far from it, just kind of bringing this up as something to consider if you so choose to.
Timonen’s value is in the fact that he does everything well, plays every situation effectively, will put up points fairly consistently, can shut down players, and do very well in the giveaway/takeaway category. A lot of his value is also in things that aren’t always measurable (we all remember how he made Ovie disappear, but I can’t just pull up a nice summary statistic that will show that). The guy is a gamer, and can shut down the best in the league, but moving forward he is going to have an increasingly hard time living up to that cap hit as his body puts on more miles (and remember, Timonen is by far my favorite Flyer, he has been one of my favorite players in the league even before he joined the team, I’m just trying to take my bias out of it…which maybe is making me move too far in the other direction).
Hopefully I don’t get shelled too hard for this, b/c I am just trying to bring up both sides of the argument, and not bring down Kimmo in any way. Basically, Kimmo is awesome, but his cap hit is tough to live up to.
Is this the right room for an argument?
Very well said.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 3, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks...
Except for me screwing up the pairing %’s, thanks for not embarrassing me on that one. That link you sent me is dangerous, and nice to have to play around with. It really helps tell a story beyond the advanced stats. Unfortunately I either suck at using it still, or the website is trying to make me look silly.
Is this the right room for an argument?
I always use Even-Strength. And it wants you to query playoff numbers, which I never want to.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 3, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m good at always clicking the even strength selection, but for some reason, even though I selected regular season, I seemed to have playoffs returned. Oh well, at least I caught it before Geoff Detweiler, Master of Hockey Statistics called me out on it.
Is this the right room for an argument?
haha, I guess I trusted you too much. That’ll learn me.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 3, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Error
So, I thought the pairing numbers looked weird. So I doubled checked them, and they were still the same, but then I tripled checked after closing my browser first before rerunning the pairing numbers. I was off on Timonen’s pairing. It was basically the same as Coburn’s during the regular season (I believe it kept pulling the playoffs for some reason, and would not change):
Here’s the fix:
And Coburn was stuck playing with one of Krajicek/Bartulis/Parent/OKT/Syvret 35% of the time at even strength,whilesimilarly Timonenonlyspent about 34% of his time withKrajicek(9%)/Bartulis/Parent and never had to suffer through any OKT time.Krajicek/Bartulis/Parent/OKT/Syvret, so it is not like Kimmo was stuck having to carry all the load of the weaker players, rather, Coburn shared that burden
Sorry for not being more thorough.
Is this the right room for an argument?
I would hope that taking into account zone start, toi, and qualcomp would make up for coburn having slighty better numbers. I’m just taking a stab as I’m not the best with the advanced stats.
by tmurder on Aug 3, 2010 3:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s not really, that was my point. The QualComp is slightly tougher for Kimmo, but the QualTeam is slightly worse for Coburn, so it’s almost a wash there…wait, I’ll just post all the numbers. The first number is Kimmo, the second is Coburn’s (everything is 5 on 5):
QualComp: 0.049; 0.028
QualTeam: -0.100; -0.119
GFON/60: 2.13; 2.33
GAON/60: 2.38; 2.56
+/-ON/60: -0.25; -0.23
GFOFF/60: 2.45; 2.35
GAOFF/60: 2.40; 2.33
+/-OFF/60: 0.05; 0.03
OZStart%: 52.8%; 51.0%
OZFinish%: 47.3%; 48.4%
Is this the right room for an argument?
Except that I believe what a team pays a player doesn’t affect his on-ice performance grade in my eyes. The Flyers have overpaid and will continue to overpay lots of players; I know the cap affects the entire team, but how many players could we get in FA for the same cap hit/salary as Kimmo who would he equal to him or better?
Obviously, this could all change in another year as he ages, but I’m just posing the counter argument here.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
That’s fine, I’m not trying to criticise your POV, just defend a differing view point. In no way was I trying to take away from how you choose to grade a player.
However, Kimmo was not a true FA, his rights were acquire via trade. As a point of comparison, Pronger’s current cap hit is now $4.9mil. Other names out there: Keith, his cap hit is $5.54mil, Lidstrom is at $6.2, to a lesser extent Weber and Suter are at $4.5 and $3.5 respectively. I’m just throwing some names out there. Obviously Chara makes $7.5 and would be on your side of the argument as would Bouwmeester, but I refuse to include a Sutter signing in any reasonable comparison hahaha. The point is, Kimmo wasn’t an FA signing, nor was he really a trade either, but rather something in between the two. But you can get guys that can perform like Kimmo for less money, it is possible, especially in this era. Kimmo was signed at a different time, before the cap went down, so his contract is not as friendly as some of the more recent signings.
Sorry for the tangent. Point is, I’m not disagreeing with, more so saying mb’s point was valid. Grading is all in the eye of the beholder.
Is this the right room for an argument?
So what you're saying is
if Kimmo was a strain of weed he’d be that dank sh*t they sell in the suburbs?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
seriously considering getting his jersey as my new flyers jersey, i dont care if he wont be around in 5 years, he is an effing warrior, his comments after the cup were great, dude is the man. Much like my Recchi and Roenick jerseys, the Timmonen jersey will never go out of style.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Aug 3, 2010 2:39 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, I should have gone the Timmo rout with my recent jersey purchase, but I am just praying that we keep Giroux around. Got our home jersey with the Stanley Cup patch, so at least if he isn’t here after this year, I’ll still have it as a memory of this past post-season.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
i am torn btwn kimmo and Giroux and Richards, but i think im going kimmo.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Aug 4, 2010 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Each man has a roll to preform on the team
Some roles are more important than others but if a roll can’t be prefomed properly the entire team suffers.
Timonen assumed and executed his roll perfectly throughout the entire season
He wasn’t perfect every game, but his ability to keep up with his responsibilities throughout a season where a lot of other players stayed a bit, saved us.
He deserves all the praise he receives and then more
Each man has a roll to preform on the team
You mean like those Pillsbury dinner rolls you make out of the canned dough? I had no idea Kimmo’s role consisted of such baked, buttery goodness.
ha :)
His role it to poke the biscuit away
Progner just steals them
and Hartnell’s roll is more if a tumble onto the ice
I gave Kimmo a B I thought he had a better year last year as did pretty much every Flyer. He is still an excellent player but he set the bar high, much like Carter based on the 08 season and the expectations I had for Kimmo especially with Pronger coming in to take some of the load of him he could have been better. I am not sure how much blame I can put on Coburn for this drop off but Coburn was a disaster compared 08 and that probably hurt Kimmo’s production as well coupled with the fact we had some rough stints where we didn’t score any goals.
My explanation
It wasn’t Coburn. Coburn had a less than stellar season b/c he was expected to carry 3rd pairing and rookie level guys 35% of the time at even strength versus 08/09, when he only was only paired with that level of talent about 19% of the time.
Kimmo’s poor adv stats (though his production is about the same, 43 points the previous year, 39 points this season) I think has more to do with the entire team. His QualTeam in 08/09 was 0.172 versus -0.100 this year. So the team performed weaker around him (all 5 guys, not just D pairing). Last season he spent about 30% of his time carrying Parent, but 50% of his time with either Vaananen or Coburn. I don’t see that as a huge departure of what he had to deal with this year, so that again leads me to believe he is spending less time with quality forwards on the ice. I think Pronger actually stole them all since his QualTeam was 0.179 this year haha.
As far as production goes, I’m surprised his offensive numbers were close to last year. I thought with Pronger on board he would see less time on the PP, therefore hurting his point totals (he had 4:04min/game last season versus 3:37/game this year).
Is this the right room for an argument?
A+++++++++++++
Kimmo did what he always does, play solid defense, is quiet most of the time except when he makes a great pass or goal. I was so excited when we got him from Nashville and I am glad he is still a part of this team. Him and Pronger are I think arguably 2 of the top 10 defenders in the league.
I also love his leadership. I never really knew much of what he said until I started reading this site and saw quotes from him in places such as EuroFlyers and others, and I really like what he always has to say. He is a warrior and plays to win and I hope that before he retires we can get his name on the cup.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
Kimmo's a warrior.
I really love that picture, to be honest. Ohhhh, Twenty Cent and Dustin Bufldfkjnwai
WHO THE FUCK VOTED F FOR KIMMO?
"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State."
- Cris Carter, NFL Draft, 4/25/09
twitter: @princessblueezy
Or maybe Caps fans who are none to happy about Kimmo’s ability to shut Ovie down…
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Too true, you’ve always got your neighbor to blame it on.
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Not anymore. I moved away from that MFer. Thank God. I couldn’t stand him. My husband is still trying to be friends with him, but he’s not worth the effort. (and not just because he’s a Pen’s fan—I know others who aren’t as big of jerks as this guy—although they all portray the Pitt fan in a very negative light. It’s really ironic considering they all think Philly fans are the worst. Argument for another day.)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
If ever there was a reason for disowning my previous affiliation, that would be it. Kimmo is definitely a key part of the team, and easily one of the best defensemen in the league. Anyone voting “F” needs their heads examined, preferably by a half-wit using a sharpened spork.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
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