New +/- System
Over the past few days I decided to take a look at the best variables from plus/minus and corsi to create my own “plus-minus” system. Only scoring plays will be looked at (I just don’t have the resources to do it for every chance/shot etc.) but I attempt to eliminate the variables. For instance, Claude Giroux blocks a shot at the point, chases it down, buries the break-away attempt. Why should anyone else get credited with a “plus-1” when Claude was accountable for 100% of that goal? On the defensive side, if Chris Pronger’s pass gets intercepted when he’s going point-to-point, why should any forwards get a “minus-1” for that play? The answer to both above questions is “they shouldn’t.” Statistics are very quantitative and the reason that my system is different is because it takes general hockey strategy and variability into account. Let’s look at an example from the first even strength goal of the season scored in Boston on October 6th by Jake Voracek. Take a look at the goal.
Traditional hockey stats would award a goal to Voracek, a primary assist to Meszaros, and a secondary assist to Simmonds with all five players (Carle and Briere included) getting “plus-1.” Here’s how I broke it down:
· Voracek was responsible for 50% of that goal with his being in good position for the rebound and driving it home.
· Wayne Simmonds drive to the net and pass to Meszaros is good for 20%.
· Meszaros’ drive from the point gets 20%.
· Briere drawing Chara gets 5% and Matt Carle gets 5% for the (not seen in the video)original drive into the zone.
There was a lot going on during that play, lots of players were involved and they all deserve some form of credit. Now lets take a look at a different kind of example, the first goal from that game (on the power play, but that doesn’t matter because I break the stats up into 5-on-5, 5-on-4, and 4-on-5).
· Outlet by Pronger to Jagr gets Pronger 10%.
· Jagr’s sweet pass to Giroux: 20%
· Giroux handling the pass, turning Chara inside out and finishing: 70%
This play shows why this rating system can be implemented and effective because it shows who really did the scoring and who really messed up the defensive assignments. Here's a defensive example: (go to 1:38)
· Giroux: He gets 10% for his weak attempt to clear the puck by batting it with his stick. Probably should have gone for the body in an attempt to tie up the puck in the slot.
· Jagr: Mishandles Coburn’s outlet leading to the turnover. When Coburn over pursues to the opposite side of the net, Jagr is not able to cover quick enough, leaving the scorer with the easy put back. 45%
· Coburn: 50%. Handcuffs Jagr on the outlet. Over pursues leaving Sedin all alone with no one to cover for him.
· Timonen: He was there, good effort on the block, but defenders should get some responsibility when there is a goal in front: 5%.
· vanReimsdyk: 0%
This is the textbook example defensivly because there were people at fault (Coby/Jagr) and people not at fault (JVR). Now that you understand the system, here’s the data for the past four games in all three situations:
| Player | Date | Opponent | H/A | Period | Score | % For | %Against | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Voracek | 6-Oct | Boston | A | 1 | 0 | 0.5 | Play in, positioning, goal | |
| Simmonds | 6-Oct | Boston | A | 1 | 0 | 0.2 | Drive to net and play to Mez | |
| Meszaros | 6-Oct | Boston | A | 1 | 0 | 0.2 | Point Blast/Primary Assist | |
| Briere | 6-Oct | Boston | A | 1 | 0 | 0.05 | Drawing Chara | |
| Carle | 6-Oct | Boston | A | 1 | 0 | 0.05 | Original play in | |
| Giroux | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 1 | 0 | 0.4 | Find hole and snipe | |
| vanReimsdyk | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 1 | 0 | 0.4 | Strong on puck and no look dish | |
| Lilja | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 1 | 0 | 0 | ||
| Jagr | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 1 | 0 | 0.05 | Draws attention to clear G | |
| Carle | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 1 | 0 | 0.15 | Great keep, play-in to secondary | |
| Hartnell | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 1 | 0.4 | Pick up loose puck and primary | |
| Read | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 1 | 0.4 | Find hole and score | |
| Couturier | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 1 | 0 | Good spacing to clear for Read | |
| Goalie | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 1 | 0.2 | Bad goal on Brodeur | |
| Coburn | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 1 | 0 | ||
| Timonen | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 1 | 0 | ||
| Simmonds | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 2 | 0.6 | Starts w/ pass to Prongs, finishes strong | |
| Giroux | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 2 | 0 | Stays on post, unchecked | |
| Pronger | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 2 | 0.2 | Draws attention and secondary | |
| Meszaros | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 2 | 0.2 | Blast/ primary | |
| Jagr | 8-Oct | New Jersey | A | 3 | 2 | 0 | ||
| Jagr | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 1 | 1 | 0.15 | Stick lift to set up primary | |
| Giroux | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 1 | 1 | 0.25 | Interception, center/primary | |
| vanReimsdyk | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 1 | 1 | 0.55 | deflection, rebound, roof | |
| Lilja | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 1 | 1 | 0 | ||
| Coburn | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 1 | 1 | 0 | ||
| Briere | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 1 | 1 | 0.05 | Dump and change | |
| Giroux | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0.1 | Whacks at puck instead of positioning | |
| vanReimsdyk | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0 | ||
| Jagr | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0.45 | Turnover/fail to cover Coburn | |
| Timonen | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0.05 | In scrum in front |
|
| Coburn | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0.4 | Handcuff's Jagr on TO/ over pursues leaving scorer | |
| Voracek | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 1 | 0.5 | Playin, find hole, snipe | |
| Couturier | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 1 | 0.375 | Strong on puck/primary | |
| Timonen | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 1 | 0.1 | secondary/holds guy on post, away from 14 | |
| Coburn | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 1 | 0 | ||
| Briere | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 1 | 0.025 | Holds guy on porch, in office | |
| Pronger | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0.5 | Miscommunication leaving scorer alone | |
| Nodl | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0 | ||
| Talbot | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0 | ||
| Rinaldo | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0 | ||
| Timonen | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 2 | 2 | 0.5 | Miscommunication leaving scorer alone | |
| Meszaros | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 3 | 0 | 0.45 | Finds hole and snipe | |
| Briere | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 3 | 0 | 0.45 | Great find | |
| Coburn | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 3 | 0 | 0.1 | Positioning/screen/rush | |
| vanReimsdyk | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 3 | 0 | 0 | Change-in | |
| Jagr | 12-Oct | Vancouver | H | 3 | 0 | 0 | Change-in | |
| Pronger | 15-Oct | Los Angelos | H | 3 | 0 | 0 | ||
| vanReimsdyk | 15-Oct | Los Angelos | H | 3 | 0 | 0 | ||
| Giroux | 15-Oct | Los Angelos | H | 3 | 0 | 0 | ||
| Jagr | 15-Oct | Los Angelos | H | 3 | 0 | 0.1 | In scrum infront | |
| Carle | 15-Oct | Los Angelos | H | 3 | 0 | 0.75 | Out of position to start and never recovered | |
| Offense | 15-Oct | Los Angelos | H | 3 | 0 | 0.15 | Dances around defender and burys rebound |
That's the ES raw data, here is the cleaned up version:
| Player | Plus/Minus | Time | per 60 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Voracek | 1 | 45.5 | 1.318681319 |
| vanReimsdyk | 0.95 | 47.75 | 1.193717277 |
| Simmonds | 0.8 | 44.5 | 1.078651685 |
| Giroux | 0.55 | 47 | 0.70212766 |
| Briere | 0.575 | 51.5 | 0.669902913 |
| Read | 0.4 | 38.83 | 0.61 |
| Couturiere | 0.375 | 39.5 | 0.569620253 |
| Hartnell | 0.4 | 42.75 | 0.561403509 |
| Meszaros | 0.4 | 51.5 | 0.466019417 |
| Lilja | 0 | 48 | 0 |
| Nodl | 0 | 27.66 | 0 |
| Rinaldo | 0 | 21.33 | 0 |
| Talbot | 0 | 35.25 | 0 |
| Coburn | -0.3 | 67 | -0.268656716 |
| Pronger | -0.3 | 52 | -0.346153846 |
| Jagr | -0.35 | 42.75 | -0.49122807 |
| Timonen | -0.45 | 50.75 | -0.532019704 |
| Carle | -0.55 | 61.5 | -0.536585366 |
| 3.5 | 815.07 | 0.00429411 |
Now the power play:
| pm | toi | Reflected | per 60 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Giroux | 1.675 | 18.67 | 0.089716122 | 5.382967327 |
| Jagr | 0.775 | 17.75 | 0.043661972 | 2.61971831 |
| Briere | 0.75 | 18 | 0.041666667 | 2.5 |
| Pronger | 0.85 | 18.5 | 0.045945946 | 2.756756757 |
| vanReimsdyk | 0.425 | 18 | 0.023611111 | 1.416666667 |
| Carle | 0.325 | 17 | 0.019117647 | 1.147058824 |
| Simmonds | 0.175 | 14.83 | 0.011800405 | 0.708024275 |
| Timonen | 0.1 | 16 | 0.00625 | 0.375 |
| Read | 0.05 | 9.75 | 0.005128205 | 0.307692308 |
| Voracek | 0.05 | 17.25 | 0.002898551 | 0.173913043 |
| Meszaros | 0 | 11.33 | 0 | 0 |
Here is the raw 5-on-4 data:
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And now the raw 4v5:
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And the clean 4v5:
| Ga | toi | reflected | per 60 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Talbot | 0 | 25.66 | 0 | 0 |
| Read | 0 | 13.5 | 0 | 0 |
| Nodl | 0 | 12.83 | 0 | 0 |
| Meszaros | 0 | 12.75 | 0 | 0 |
| Coburn | 0 | 12.16 | 0 | 0 |
| Giroux | 0 | 5.5 | 0 | 0 |
| Carle | 0 | 3.25 | 0 | 0 |
| Simmonds | 0 | 0.66 | 0 | 0 |
| Lilja | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 0 |
| Couturier | 0.2 | 19.33 | 0.010346611 | 0.620796689 |
| Pronger | 0.33 | 26 | 0.012692308 | 0.761538462 |
| Timonen | 0.73 | 26 | 0.028076923 | 1.684615385 |
| Giroux | 0.7 | 11.75 | 0.059574468 | 3.574468085 |
If anyone is good at pivot tables I think you can extract a lot more data out of my raw numbers. I can send this information to whoever would like it and I do plan on keeping these numbers for the foreseeable future to see if any patterns do develop. Other than that, tell me what you guys think?
UPDATED AFTER WASHINGTON GAME
Value= Raw +/-'s added up for net value
ESTOI/60= Assuming that is 5-5 so Claude's 4 on 4 goal last night would not count ***(how do you guys feel about adding 4 v 4 to the ES data)***
IPM/60= Individual Plus/Minus per 60. Making value relative to time on ice
| Player | Value | ESTOI/60 | IPM/60 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Couturier | 1.2 | 8.82 | 8.16 |
| Voracek | 0.9 | 10.62 | 5.08 |
| vanReimsdyk | 0.95 | 11.35 | 5.02 |
| Talbot | 0.65 | 7.85 | 4.97 |
| Simmonds | 0.8 | 11.82 | 4.06 |
| Briere | 0.575 | 13.27 | 2.60 |
| Nodl | 0.25 | 6.68 | 2.25 |
| Meszaros | 0 | 13.04 | 0.00 |
| Read | 0 | 10.76 | 0.00 |
| Carle | -0.025 | 15.41 | -0.10 |
| Giroux | -0.05 | 11.19 | -0.27 |
| Hartnell | -0.06 | 10.74 | -0.34 |
| Pronger | -0.25 | 12.44 | -1.21 |
| Rinaldo | -0.15 | 5.32 | -1.69 |
| Jagr | -0.35 | 10.29 | -2.04 |
| Lilja | -0.45 | 12.48 | -2.16 |
| Coburn | -0.6 | 15.63 | -2.30 |
| Schenn | -0.4 | 9.42 | -2.55 |
| Timonen | -0.85 | 11.03 |
-4.62 |
This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
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This is way too arbitrary, and that’s why +/- in general is not a very useful stat.
At least keep it simple, and in my opinion, count all situations for the players. If you’re on a PP and you score +1, if you’re short handed and you’re scored upon -1. You’re supposed to score, and stop the other team from scoring when you’re on the ice, so count all situations. If this happened, you could at least see the overall impact of the player being on the ice, but then still realize that its just a flag, and you have to cross reference with PP time, SH TOI etc to see the true effectiveness of the players.
Your solution to plus/minus is to penalize those players who play on the penalty kill while crediting those who play on the power play?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 17, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
not at all...
My solution is to document properly what happens when Player A is on the ice. The player should be measured the same way, regardless of if there is a player in the penalty box or not.
to avoid this, you can introduce situational stats to publish +/- by ES, PP, SH if you wish, but at the end of the day, simpler is better.
But you aren’t addressing any of the flaws with +/-. It doesn’t take into account how a player is used, how lucky he was, what his role is, or how much ice time he got.
At least this method is attempting to place proper credit/blame on the responsible parties as opposed to giving everybody on the ice for unassisted goals the same credit/blame.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 17, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I know +/- is a flawed stat,and I’m not trying to validate the flaws, but I believe this would be removing some of the existing flaws. How does the above article make this less flawed? There is a lot of interpretation on whether or not an indirect play led to a goal, and to what degree. You cannot mathematically determine what impact a Body check in your zone has correlating to an offensive rush on a consistent basis. There are too many variables to consider that would ever allow this proposal to be considered valid by anyone reasonable. This proposal introduces several more flaws to the stat.
If +/- is to be used, it should be as a basic guide to see if the team scores more with the player on the ice, than not. and then look at PP, ES, SH situations as well to validate variations of the stat (positive and negative).
To your last point, if you’re on the ice and the other team scores, why shouldn’t you face part of the blame?
If I’m a forward screening the goalie and my defender turns the puck over going point-to-point for a breakaway goal, why should I be blamed for that?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 18, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe the play being run calls for you to be on the side boards. Who really knows? The stat is a GUIDE people, not an exact science. To try and turn it into an exact science is ridiculous.
Going from objective plus/minus to this new subjective metric is hardly trying to turn it into an exact science.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Frankly I don’t like this idea either. At this point you are almost turning +/- in to reviewing tape in a coaching session. At least with zone entries it’s simple and still a counting method. There is no assigned responsibility or credit other than did Player X carry it in, did he keep control, was there a shot when in the zone. This is more like a coaching session, it makes it too clouded IMO. It’s an interesting concept, but not something easily applied across the league IMO, which takes away it’s value.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Agreed, outside of the not liking it part.
As I said elsewhere, this is very similar to what Eric did for last year’s playoffs. The problem is associating it with +/- as opposed to calling it something like Goal Shares.
It’s not attempting to replace plus/minus – afterall, it’s only being done for one team – but rather to break down the Flyers’ plus/minus based on subjective visual evidence.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Let me be more specific, I don’t like it as an idea that the title of the fanpost suggests it should be. It’s of little use to the game as a whole or as an applied statistic. However, with that said, it is a fun exercise for the year (though it will be tough for one person to do all year, and allowing other people to will take out any hopes of consistency), despite disagreeing with some things in the breakdowns (a lot actually), I just don’t like it much outside of that. I think it’s easier to do for less time consuming time periods, such as the playoffs, but I digress.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
if you’re on the ice and the other team scores, why shouldn’t you face part of the blame?
Because there are too many variables to consider whether you share equal blame for that goal being scored? If I’m the only defender back on a 3-on-1 against, I manage to block the pass by laying out, but the puck goes to the fourth man on the rush while my teammates all stopped skating, I shouldn’t face equal blame with the four guys who quit on the play, allowing the goal to be scored.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
To allude to your point, if there is a 3-on-1 coming someone made a bad turnover—-they should take the majority of the blame on that play.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the idea – it’s similar to what Eric started for last year’s playoffs – but wonder about the scale. I worry that Pronger got 10% for doing what any defenseman can do, and what contributed little to the goal. He didn’t set Jagr up nor did he distract the opposition.
I think it has potential, but I think you need to clean up the points awarded.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 17, 2011 4:07 PM EDT reply actions
Right, but anyone who knows anything about technical and fundamental hockey knows that the breakout needs to start with an on time and accurate outlet pass that hits it’s recipient in stride and that’s exactly what Pronger did. If he doesn’t put that pass on the money then the butterfly effect takes its course.
I know its very arbitrary and qualitative but I’m going to keep it up and maybe we’ll see a pattern through out the year. If I’m on game threads maybe we could all discuss the % distribution.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 17, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d love to see it keep going throughout the year, and you didn’t give Pronger a ton of credit, I just think 10% for a simple pass that every defenseman in the NHL can make is too much.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 17, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, this is very cool. My objection to eye tests really isn’t that they’re subjective, it’s that usually there’s no way to review the work and dispute it. It’s fine with me that Pronger’s 10% is disputable, as long as we all have the opportunity to look at it and dispute it if we choose.
One thing I’d raise: it doesn’t look like the goalies are being given any blame. I’d consider assigning less than 100% credit on soft goals for and less than 100% blame on soft goals against. Otherwise, you’ll have some plays where someone gets a +0.5 for great finish to an incredible play and other plays where someone gets a +0.8 because there isn’t really anyone else to give credit to on a lucky bounce.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I like this recommendation a lot.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
It is in there, although in my examples I didn’t really get into it. If you look at the raw data for Matt Read’s first goal:
Off of a loose puck,
Read: 40% good positioning, okay shot, finds the net
Hartnell: 40% Very good pass, on the tape, in stride, between two defenders
Goalie: 20% Weak goal
Here’s my breakdown for Read’s first goal last night—-the bad angle one:
Read: .6 great speed out of and into the zones, great accurate shots
Couturiere: .075 Great job of handling Carle’s pass that was off target (in his skates, not on tape) and getting it to Read in stride.
Carle: .025 Played puck to Read, but marginal pass
Pronger. 05 Great job of getting back, playing puck behind net to start rush (and did a great job of avoiding a Chris Neil hit as he was closing on the play)
Goalie: .25 Bad angle—-but very accurate
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
uhhh what?
what if player “x” during one of the goals never touched the puck for a second but had an opponent follow him around which opened room for someone else to score. i dont see what youre trying to get at with this logic here
First goal of the devils game Jagr streaks through the would be passing lane of JVR and G, the defender on G goes w Jags, G is now open. Why should Jags not get any credit?
How bout Prongs point blast. Simmonds didnt touch it but screened the goalie perfectly. Off puck play is just as important.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 17, 2011 8:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I love the idea, but I have a question to this sequence:
Pronger 12-Oct Vancouver H 2 2 0.5 Miscommunication leaving scorer alone
Nodl 12-Oct Vancouver H 2 2 0
Talbot 12-Oct Vancouver H 2 2 0
Rinaldo 12-Oct Vancouver H 2 2 0
Timonen 12-Oct Vancouver H 2 2 0.5 Miscommunication leaving scorer alone
Why is does Nodl not receive some of the blame for not clearing the puck when he had the chance?
That’s a great quesiton and in all honestly that is the main flaw with this stat. I don’t have wide angle game films where i can see everything happen. I use the NHL.com hilight videos which do a good job of picking up roughly 10-20 seconds before the goal, but if it happened before that then I cant really see it.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I just remember that goal, because we had several chances to clear the puck out of the zone, but instead of risking the icing and just clearing the puck, the players tried to skate it out.
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions

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