Brayden Schenn called up; Rinaldo, Zolnierczyk sent to Phantoms
by Travis Hughes on Oct 19, 2011 11:57 AM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers News
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Brayden Schenn had a lot of fun in the American Hockey League. Four goals, four assists in just four games. The Phantoms won three of those games, too, and now their leading scorer is headed for Philadelphia.
Schenn was called up today as the Flyers returned Harry Zolnierczyk, just called up yesterday, to Glens Falls. Also heading north will be Zac Rinaldo, despite receiving constant praise from Peter Laviolette over the last few weeks. If you're curious about the timing of these moves, don't be: Jody Shelley is now off suspension, as of the game last night.
And if you're wondering why both Rinaldo and Harry Z had to go down in order to call Schenn up, you can safely assume that the salary cap, as always, is the reason for that. There's now very little cushion to work with when it comes to that cap -- something like $11,000 to $12,000 -- but with 13 forwards and seven defensemen, that'll probably work itself out. With an overpaid scrub at each position, in fact, the solution is really staring the Flyers right in the face.
So what will the lineup now look like with Rinaldo out and both Schenn and Shelley in? Well, it looks as though one of Andreas Nodl or Shelley will be that 13th forward. If there's absolutely zero tinkering with the lines, Schenn would find himself in Rinaldo's spot on the fourth line, but that's a complete waste of his talent.
The fact is that there's really nowhere for Schenn to go without displacing somebody else onto the fourth line. I suppose this is a good problem to have, but unless Scott Hartnell is the one that gets bumped down to the fourth unit, you're probably putting an extremely raw rookie there, thus hurting that whole player development thing. And if you have Hartnell on the fourth line... well, damn, that's an expensive fourth line.
It'll be interesting to see how Peter Laviolette makes this all work.
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There’s another possibility on the line combos.
Shelley and Nodl could both play, and one of the top-10 could play the post-Versteeg Zherdev role.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Perhaps Hartnell? He has a NMC or a NTC, I forget which? But really – of the usual top-9 forwards, he looks more and more like odd-man-out.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Keeping Shelley and Walker while demoting Zolny and Rinaldo makes no sense to me at all, but doesn’t surprise me in the least, either.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Keeping Shelley and Walker and/or Rinaldo while demoting Zolny makes no sense
Fixed.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Replace Shelley with Rinaldo, Sestito or Zolnierczyk. Then swap Walker with Gus. Betts surely gets waived again when he comes off LTIR. The other moves should get us out of the Lappy LTIR exemption, I’m pretty sure. Then start banking space to trade at the deadline.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 19, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I only want Gus up if he’s playing.
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by Travis Hughes on Oct 19, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t looked at the stats, but Lilja has met expectations, I think
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but he doesn’t fit into the whole youth movement thing we have going on. As Travis said, Gus is better off playing than sitting in the box like Bartulis did all of last year. So Gus plays NHL minutes and let Lilja be the insurance policy, while getting rid of Walker’s salary. Lilja’s been around long enough to not suffer too much from being the healthy scratch.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 19, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I would just play lilja until he gets hurt or his play declines. Then sit him for a bunch of games
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Anything to keep him from turning into SOD part 2 by the end of the year.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 19, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
93.902439024390243902439024390244%
Otherwise known as 77/82.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 19, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I give this a hearty “meh”.
He has a stupid contract and lost his first couple fights with the Flyers and everyone wrote him off as a bad fighter.
By Hockeyfights’ standings, he was 6-3-3 last year, and his three losses were to Engelland, Boogaard and Kassian, which is hardly embarrassing. He’s never had a season where he was more than a game below .500, IIRC (I dunno why, but I can’t find where I looked at this before).
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Fair enough. Just a pet peeve of mine — I desperately wish the team would cut Shelley loose, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a good fighter.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
That is what is going to happen question is 4th line minutes in the NHL better for development than 1st line minutes in Major Junior hockey. Given all the PK time Cooter is getting I think it is.
Its just the best 3rd and 4th line I could come up with if we both want Cooter and Schenn on the team.
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If Couturier can’t make it on one of the top 3 lines, he’d be better off in juniors. Couturier and Schenn are guaranteed top 9 spots, I think.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
really Juniors is better than 4th line minutes and 1st like PK role. I don’t think he needs another minute in Juniors that is going to be a major Sbisa like set back.
If you just want to develop his defensive play, then stick him on the checking line. If you want him to develop his overall game, assign him someplace where he can play a lot of minutes in all game situations. The best option for him, AHL, isn’t an option because of his age.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Too much is made out of line numbers… Lavi finally has a forward-corps that runs 12-deep at his disposal, and if the refs would let them play at ES, we could see a team that rolls 4 lines and attacks in relentless waves. Not to mention Schenn and Cooter are going to see a lot of special teams minutes.
We had a 4 line deep roster last year aswell. We just shipped the core of the away the offseason
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Because of Shelley.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with what you are saying but now we need Lavy to actually implement that idea. The Red Wings have used this for years and for some reason it hasn’t really caught on around the rest of the league yet.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
The Red Wings have used the 4 line strategy for years? I don’t know one way or another, but I do know they rely heavily, heavily on Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom. I’ve never been impressed with the rest of their roster. There are some good players there, to be sure, but they seem pretty “meh” for their spot on the depth chart to me.
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by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think any fan would be happy if their 4th liners all chipped in 15-25 pts a season. I am not arguing that the 4th line carried the team, come on now. Also yes, please look back at the past couple seasons and look at the meh players and the numbers that they put up playing on the 4th line compared to players like Carcillo and Shelley.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
FOURTH LINE
—LW Tomas Holmstrom, C Cory Emmerton, RW Patrick Eaves
So let’s see. LW has 507 points in 955 games, but is aging a bit so he only scored 18 goals last season. Center is a 23 year old former 2nd round pick who has 2 points in 4 games so far this season. RW is a former 1st round pick who has 132 points in 372 NHL contests, with only 141 PIMs to go with it.
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by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking at last year's roster
Johan Franzen – 55 points
Dan Cleary and Todd Bertuzzi ~ 46 points
Filppula and Holmstrom ~ 38 points
Those are five of eight players that scored over 15 goals last season (guess the other three). Sure you have Zetterberg putting up 80 points and Pavel playing around with 59 in 56 games, but there is solid depth. I think it is safe to say every team around the league would love to have these guys on their roster aside from Bertuzzi (although he has improved his reputation). Four out of five of those guys are what I think to be very solid 2-way hockey players. You can never have enough of those on your team.
My point is that a lot of the scoring can happen because DZL take a ton of the pressure off the other players. Imagine what would happen if Cleary-Filppula-Holmstrom had to take toughs while Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Franzen took easy minutes. Much different story.
Let’s say “meh” = average or slightly below average for the spot on the depth chart. So for a first line LW/RW/C, you need to find ~15 guys you’d take ahead of said player on Detroit. There are definitely 15 RWs I’d take over Holmstrom, and probably many more (just looking at scoring leaders from last season, 45 is easy), even over Holmstrom at his best. He’s not a bad player, he fulfills a specific role, but he’s not a driving force—he’s not the type of guy you can build any sort of line around. It’s not like Detroit is icing all-stars or players elite at what they do on their third line (save Holmstrom at his best). They just have three of the best players at their position in the game, great coaching, and passable depth, for the time being at least.
For second line, it’s ~45.
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by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That is, I’m not awestruck. They’re not like the Flyers who last season could roll out 3 lines that would be the top line on several teams and 2 pairs that would be top pair many other places. They’re good, but I’m not terrified after DZ. It’s a manageable roster after the top, it’s just that you likely get killed by the top.
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by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Anthony just said on twitter that it was Scooter centering that line
by my pal mal 16 on Oct 19, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
So my line projection is right so far?
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
and Cooter is a center, so that makes it so much easier :)
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
And frankly, belongs on the wing. He makes a decent substitute center, and can hop in to take draws once Cooter gets tossed, but his strength comes from being free to agitate and make hits – which gets restricted when he’s the center because of his different responsibilities.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s probably the safer bet to believe. I’m not there, just getting text updates from somebody who is there. For all I know, he could be drunk texting me.
Pretty early for a drunk text, no?
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 19, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Why waste the 1st year of a prospect’s ELC by playing him on a checking line? The Flyers have a wealth of checking line forwards in the system right now who will cost them a lot less in cap space.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
They “wasted” Carter on the 4th-line his rookie season… that sure killed his development, didn’t it? Oh wait…
How many goals has Carter scored this year? How many minutes did he play last night?
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
He is on IR, thats like complaining the Crosby isnt helping the Pens atm
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Carter has more broken bones than goals so far this year.
(Totally stole that joke from the Coburn kids/points that somebody else made)
by EC.Comedy on Oct 19, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think there’s a huge difference in development between getting 9 minutes a night and 12.
But it’s the waste of a year of his ELC that was TNBrando’s point. It makes it one year sooner that he’ll be eligible for RFA and get a deal in the $3-4M range, and one year sooner that he’ll be eligible for UFA and get a deal in the $5-7M range.
Those numbers assume he develops like we hope — if not, the numbers go down, but the point still stands: having a player under team control means he is underpaid and helps them fit more good players under the salary cap. That’s very important, and shouldn’t be wasted if all it does is let them fit him into a checking role that another player could do.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
If the Carter comparison stays I don’t think there is another player who can get 40 points in that role like Cooter can.
That just prove why ELC is stupid. You should no be forced to stash a player in AHL if to have him under control longer, if he is the better player.
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
You’d have to stash him in juniors to slide his contract for another year. The most unfortunate rule is that Couturier’s not eligible for AHL yet. That would be a better option than juniors for him.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Sorry meant juniors. If he was eligible for the AHL, it would lessen the stupidity because there he could develop on the 1st line.
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s amazing how many people are selfish.
How would the CHL exist if teams were allowed to play 18 year olds in the AHL? The CHL wouldn’t exist if 18 and 19 year olds could play in the AHL.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You dont find it stupid a talent like Couterier is “forced” to either play on the 3rd/4th line in the NHL and hurt is offense (more so if he ends on the 4th line) or play at the junior level and plain out dominate but not really develop for a year?
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t find it stupid, no. How many 18 or 19 year olds are too good for Juniors but not good enough for the NHL each year? 5? 10? Out of 59 teams, you’re worried about a really, really small group of players.
Second, 18 or 19 year old players aren’t “forced” to play on the 3rd or 4th line. Just because this is how the Flyers would use Couturier doesn’t mean this is the only option caused by the transfer agreement.
Third, you have set up a false dichotomy here. You’re saying the only way Couturier gets better is by going to the AHL. But the reason you want him in the AHL – to face tougher competition – is even stronger in the NHL. After all, you don’t get tougher competition.
What, exactly, can Couturier learn in the AHL to prepare himself for the NHL that he can’t learn in Juniors or in the NHL? Because until you point out what it is he will learn in the AHL that he won’t anywhere else, all you’re doing is complaining because the NHL and CHL’s rules are hurting you for the first time in 5+ years.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I admit it’s selfish, but Couturier’s too good to be in juniors/too young to be in the AHL/doesn’t have any room to fit in on the top 3 lines unless somebody there gets demoted or traded.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
First, why does the Flyers inability/refusal to use him in the top-9 factor into the NHL’s transfer agreement with the NHL?
How often is a top-10 pick (or, really, any 18 year old from Juniors) who forces their way onto an NHL roster playing for a team that is so strong, they are unable to find a top-9 role? It very rarely happens. So why is this a problem with the NHL/CHL agreement?
Second, why does Couturier have to fit in the top-9?
Third, this notion that Couturier is too good to be in juniors, but not good enough to be in the top-9 on a team that has two rookies in the top-9, is a bit silly. Even sillier is the notion that Couturier needs to be in the AHL as it is the only place he will get better.
Does he need to work on his training regimen? Does he need to focus on defense? The only thing he can do in the AHL that he can’t do in Juniors is face players over the age of 21.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Is he really under our control longer if he isn’t playing for the Flyers for a full year?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
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If we only play 9 games for us this year, it wont count against his ELC’s and therefor they will have extra years use of him
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, “extra year’s control” is a bit misleading, I suppose — it’s that instead of controlling him from age 18 to 24, they’ll control him from age 19 to 25. And since he’ll be a lot better at 25 than at 18, this is often considered advantageous, and particularly so if at age 18 the only spot open for him is on the fourth line.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
The question is, who in the AHL can play well on the 4th line and kill penalties? I hope Betts is healthy before Couterier plays nine games as it would make the decision easier.
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Holmstrom did both last year, without any obvious problems.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Yeah, I bet there are plenty of players like that. Talent on offense is harder to find than talent on defense.
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by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
This again???
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I know Hershey is stacked compared to other AHL teams…it’s not as if the Capitals’ first call up at forward was always Perreault: Beagle, A. Gordon, Mink, Giroux, Aucoin…Beagle hardly put up any offense down there.
I’m not saying there is a plethora of Joel Ward-types in the minors, but Holmstrom, Beagle, etc, every team has a few.
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by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
If there was another NHL-ready 6’4 pivot in the system that has the defensive polish and 3-zone acumen that Cooter has displayed, I’d might agree with your last statement.
If he’s going to be the third line center, I want him in the NHL, because he’s valuable in that role and I don’t know that they have a good replacement.
If he’s going to be the fourth line center, he’s not adding nearly as much value, and there are plenty of adequate replacements.
“3-zone acumen” doesn’t do all that much good when you have Jody Shelley on your wing. A line of Holmstrom-Talbot-Shelley or Talbot-Betts-Shelley won’t be as good as Talbot-Couturier-Shelley, but the difference won’t be all that large either.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
i mean i’m also kind of assuming the lines will be different by the end of the season, specifically briere to the wing with schenn centering two and cooter centering three…hartnell’s probs gone by then and drop Voracek to cooters left wing.
by my pal mal 16 on Oct 19, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s about three too many assumptions for my tastes.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is Shelly he isn’t going to play a line of Talbot-Cooter-Nodl is good enough to be a 3rd line and will get close to 10 minutes ES TOI per game and will 3-4 minutes on the PK all those guys should get about 13-15 minutes per game of TOI.
Talbot-Betts-Shelly will be like last years 4th line and never get a regular shift only 5 minutes ES TOI per game. Plus sending Cooter down means he is gone for the season he won’t have the opportunity to move up and play a bigger role if and when someone gets banged up.
Got distracted and couldn’t hit post, touche work, touche. Yea I agree 100% with you
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed – if the intent is to shelter the 4th line less, you have to sit Shelley or otherwise remove him from the lineup. SO, if you want to increase 4th line minutes to get Cooter time (as they should), Shelley is the 13th forward (or applying for jobs with the UFC, I don’t care which). If, however, you still intend to shelter your 4th line so you can carry one-dimensional players on it, then Cooter (and the team) will be best served if he is returned to juniors.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a lot of time being taken away from the top 9.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
It’s not like we’re going to be taking 6-8 shifts away from the Legion of Doom and spreading them to a bunch of scrubs. This team is built on depth and balance… as good as Giroux/JVR/Jagr have been, the team isn’t built in a way that relies exclusively on top scoring lines.
But you are talking about taking away anywhere from 1.5 to 3.25 minutes in Chris’s suggestion (fractions not seconds) from top 9 players at even strength, which has 80% of the goals at ES thus far this season, and 82% of the points. I like a 4th line of Nodl-Coots-Talbot, but I’m not giving them minutes over Giroux or Briere’s line, especially in the offensive zone. Balance is good, but top talent, top producers, should get top minutes.
I’m not arguing over the 4th line makeup, I’m arguing that they shouldn’t be getting an extra 1.5 to 3 minutes of ES time a game that you are taking away from the top 9.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
In fact, let me correct something, I’m not even arguing.
If that’s what both of you would prefer, that’s fine. I was just trying to point out that those extra ES minutes for the 4th line have to come from somewhere. It’s not something I’d prefer or like, unless maybe the plan was to take ES minutes away from Jagr to spell him a bit for the long season, but if you two do, that’s your opinion.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
How much does it really hurt the top three lines if you ‘take’ one or two shifts from each (assuming a shift is about 30 seconds) and give that time to the 4th line? Especially if that 4th line is pretty good in and of itself? If G gets 17 minutes of ES a night, and averages a half-goal per game at that TOI, removing one minute means 0.03 less goals per game for him, or 3 goals over a full season. If you have confidence that your fourth line can make up that slack, or if you believe that resting your top guys an extra few seconds while the 4th line isn’t hurting you is good …
I dunno. Not sure either way. Your point about top players getting top minutes is valid – but I think the top players can pad overall ice time with PP and PK minutes.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, they already are getting padded big time. Giroux is getting roughly 18.5 minutes a game right now, ~12.3 of which come at ES and ~4.6 on the PP. When a team’s 3rd line is getting 10+minutes of ES a game, that limits what you have left to give the 4th. (break down now is 12 and change, 11 and change, 10 and change, and 7). Look at Detroit from last year, most of their ES minutes went to the top 6, then a big dip to the 3rd line, and another dip to the 4th after that. The Flyers are already spreading ES minutes thin to incorporate a well balanced 3rd line, which I like, but after that I’m not a huge fan. I haven’t done the math yet, but I can tomorrow if you’d like, but you’d have to look at the difference between all 3 players on that line, not just one, so it be goals per 60, or game if you’d like per line versus the 4th line.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
So … the real answer is to cut down on the special teams ice time so that each line gets more ES time! Just as Lavvy is demanding – less penalties! :)
I see your point, and honestly I don’t know what the answer is. I would think that it may vary depending on the team you play against? So that if your team has more balance, you can run all 4 lines against them – but if their team has more balance, you try to top-load your lines and your minutes to overload their more balanced lines. No? (This also leads into the home-ice-line-change issue … which as we all know leads to even stronger drugs. JUST SAY NO.)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think having a more balanced line up is needed when you have Lavi behind the bench; he seems to struggle matching up. I wish I had the average amount of penalties a game handy, I can’t find the file I made last year when we had arguments over ice time. End of the day, there is only so much to go around, and I only brought it up because people through out numbers like, give the 4th liners 10 minutes a game of ES, but don’t mention the ripple effects. If people can justify to themselves it’s a good idea to give the 4th line 10 minutes of ES time a night, more power to them, I don’t agree, but it’s just my opinion, I’m not fighting this one that hard.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Yep. I don’t actually think I know enough about this topic to HAVE an opinion that’s worthwhile. Bu there is definitely a finite amount of ice time (even assuming no special teams play) and it has to be divided in terms of effective minutes (Foppa needed more rest than Gretzky, it seemed to me). Kind of a delicate balance that you coudl write a maximization equation for; one that carried the permutations through the lineup and automatically reduced the ES time by two minutes once you inserted Rinaldo in the lineup … :)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
At any rate, here is an interesting question:
Is giving a hypothetical 4th line of Nodl-Talbot-Coots an extra 2 to 3 minutes a night of ES time (let’s say 2 and just focus on top 6) worth the loss in production from not having the top 6 out there. If people want the best chance to win now, wouldn’t they value more production from better players over getting Coots more ice time in a 4th line role to aid in development? And if not, we are back at Eric’s point.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Depends. If your expected per-game points differential is high enough, you may have the latitude to do just that with no change in per-game outcome. So – simply accept Bryz as your personal savior, and all will be well with the world.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Problem is, to do the analysis, I’m going to have to use last years numbers, and make some assumptions on production since, well, these are different guys and lines.
But even without the analysis, an extra 2 minutes a game of Giroux or Briere’s line doesn’t induce any feelings of more confidence in production than that hypothetical 4th line. Whether it’s true or not, I guess I’ll see, but I have a hard time accepting that people would truly believe that it doesn’t.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I would have to look over G/60 from last year I think. Since the hypothetical here has Cooter which is an unknown, Talbots, who’s is likely very bad, and Nodl who I believe had a very high G/60 if I remember correctly.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
so he laughs at the one where I was being semi-serious… man…
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
No, I’m laughing at the idea of something Nodl doing well would somehow diminish a point I’m trying to make. It was good, just not good enough, or so it looks like knowing on what I plan to do tomorrow with this stuff.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
It is a really interesting issue. I still like the TOI break down of the SCF year as the model. 4 Centers Briere played wing this season for the most part.
ES TOI Breakdown
Richards 15
Carter 14:25
Giroux 13:00
Betts 9:22
Also under Lavy’s aggressive 2 man forecheck and high energy puck pursuit system spreading the TOI seems to be ideal to keep the fresh legs rolling on the forecheck pinning teams in the defensive zone.
So this year that would be
Giroux 15
Briere 14
Schenn 13
Cooter 9
Adding in PP/PK time
Giroux 19 – 21 TOI per game (3-4 PP +1-2 SH)
Briere 17 – 19 (3-4 PP minutes)
Schenn 15 – 17 (1-2 PP +1-2 SH)
Cooter 12- 13 (3-4 SH)
That isn’t a horrendous breakdown for the top 6.
Last year Briere was around 18 minutes per game total and Giroux was around 19 or so. I am interesting is seeing your breakdown tomorrow.
15+14+13+9=51, so that means there was only 9 minutes of time spent not at even strength, or, those players got double shifted on each other’s lines at times. Also, I don’t think 9 minutes of non ES time per game works out to league averages, but I have to find it. I’m not doing anything on time dispersion, more so if you take X minutes from Line A and Line B to give to Line D, what is the expected loss in production over the course of a season.
I think 8 minutes is a fair amount at ES for a 4th line, 10 is pushing it IMO.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
So I got lazy because I don’t have a lot of free time to do more than pop in and comment today. I didn’t take in to consideration quality of competition or linemates, which I believe is the big difference maker here in favor of keeping the minutes in the top 6. I also assumed a 4th line of Talbot-Nodl-Coots. For Coots I took an average of the rookie season of the last 4 #1 picks and decremented by 10%. I decremented Nodl’s and Briere’s last season by 10% and Jagr’s last season in the NHL by 20%. So basically, almost everything is giving an advantage to rolling 4 lines, and the goal difference from taking 1 minute away from the top line and 1 minute away from the 2nd line at ES, and giving them to the 4th line is roughly 2.5 goals. So not much. But again, I think that calculation is roughly meaningless since I didn’t adjust for changes in quality of linemates because I just don’t have the time.
Sorry
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Understood good points I guess this is a really fine line. I am sure we agree we don’t want to go back to the Stevens play Richards or in this case Giroux 22 minutes per game with on both the top PK and PP unit.
But I have the 4th line right in the middle of 8 and 10 at 9 as hopefully the happy median.
Yeah I’d really like to do a nice analysis, but I’m on telecons all day today and tomorrow now too. In fact I’m on one now, answering questions. Ah half paying attention, good times. So this was quick and dirty and trying to live up to a promise haha.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I got you I am got tons of shit to due and threw out those numbers off the top of my head never checking if it even adds up to a complete game. I guess we will just wait a see. Also game situations matter if we are behind I am sure Giroux will get more TOI but if we keep jumping all over teams which should be the plan rolling 4 lines is ideal.
That’s why I (nearly everyone) think the bigger problem here is Shelley not Couturier. IF we had a third line of Hartnell-Schenn-Read and a fourth of Nodl-Couturier-Talbot we could essentially combine the third&fourth line minutes and play those two lines with an even split.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re assuming they’re going to be dressing Shelley as a regular, that Betts hasn’t played his last game as a Flyer, and that Holmstrom would be an adequate defensive replacement for Cooter.
As it stands, outside of Shelley, they have 12 forwards that can skate anywhere in the lineup, and that’s pretty hard to match up with. Cooter could continue to handle PK and defensive duties, while gaining offensive confidence by feasting on a steady diet of 4th-line/bottom-pairing competition. Is that so bad?
You’re assuming they’re going to be dressing Shelley as a regular,
Yup.
that Betts hasn’t played his last game as a Flyer,
Nope. Read again, there’s an “or” in there, with a Betts-free option.
and that Holmstrom would be an adequate defensive replacement for Cooter.
Yup. Do you really think Talbot and Holmstrom is such a huge downgrade from Betts and Powe, who were fine in that role last year?
There’s a big assumption that Shelley will be dressing regularly, I admit that. I’d much prefer that he wasn’t, but I haven’t seen anything that makes me think the Flyers feel that way. Last year they had forwards who were much more talented than Holmstrom or Betts bumped to the press box to keep Shelley in the lineup.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Cater spent 4 seasons in the OHL, through age 20, with 2 years of AHL playoffs thrown in. He entered the NHL at age 20. Not exactly the same scenario since the Flyers could no longer slide carter anyway and add an extra year to his ELC.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I get it wasting a ELC year isn’t the best I would prefer Cooter in the AHL but back to Juniors isn’t what is best for his development. You tell him you have a chance to earn a spot give him the playing time in hard situations. Then he over exceeds expectations when is is basically set up for failure and you still send him packing all the way back to Juniors. That is not they way you handle players.
You just have to eat the year of ELC but if it makes him a better player down the road I think it is worth it. Someone will probably get hurt and he will have time to move up at times as well and play top 9 role just ATM he is the 4th line center.
I’m not arguing it, I’m just saying Carter was a bad comparison.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I don’t want to have this conversation with you.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Screw you Chuck Norris, this move gets a Thumbs Up
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
His Name is Mudd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-WjUjzV_Q
@boknows71
I'm pretty sure the lines will look like this...
Top 2 lines the same, then
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Talbot-Couterier-Shelly
if you really wanted to keep Read and Cooter together, you could put them on the 4th line and move Talbot up to the 3rd line, but 2 rookies with Shelly kinda scares me.
by TheRealBoyer on Oct 19, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Anybody with Shelley scares me.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 19, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, I hate how he always escapes the waiver. It is really the only thing he can beat these days.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Shelley kind of scares me.
"Simba needs to sharpen his claws" - Ilya Bryzgalov, on Scott Hartnell
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Z was in the press box last year because he was in Lavi’s dog house. (for what ever reason) I can’t see them sitting Nodl in favor of Shelley. If I had to guess, Shelley would be the one getting the lion’s share of the PB minutes (press box minutes sounds like he still has a role on the team, eh?) and throw him in when they have games against tough teams or if somebody gets hurt.
I hope this is the case but sadly, I’m not entirely sure this is how it will be played out. The coaching staff seems to have a slight obsession with having Shelley in there. We hear how much the players like him in “the room,” and how he is good “protection” for the star players.
I think Nodl is too important on the PK to sit.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 19, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t he go from the press box to the locker room between periods?
Like I said, I would expect them to dress him for games when they think their star players need protection. I’m one of the few people left that still thinks you should have a cement head on your team. These guys aren’t mindless idiots, they just don’t have any skill. BSC said it best the other night when he said he didn’t fight a guy because he was a little too big for him. Having a heavy weight makes guys like BSC think twice about taking runs at your star players. He hit their $51M D-man with a clean check, and from that point on, he knew he was a marked man.
What I don’t agree with is having your cement head dressed for every game. They should sit in the press box until you have a game that you think you’ll need them for. A guy like Nodl should never watch Shelley play while he’s healthy.
Somebody above said that the 4th line is talbot-couterier-Nodl
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Talbot-Schenn-Nodl
Hartnell-Couterier-Read
two third lines?
by KornontheKobb on Oct 19, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
So Harry Z has a good game
Against a bad team, but a good game. SO YOU REMOVE HIM FOR JODY SHELLEY? You know Shelley will have a bad game. He has bad games. Why keep pushing him out?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I feel like it would be better to just send Scooter back if he’s gonna play on the 4th line. I don’t think playing on a line with Shelley will help anyone develop their game. In fact he may regress haha.
And with that arrangement it allows for Harry Z to come and see what he’s made of. Of course my most favorite arrangement is to just cut ties with Shelley because he has the value equivalent of a stack of bricks on the ice.
I think I’d prefer Rinaldo over Shelley.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
To his credit, refrigerator boxes are tough to compete with. They’re a lot of fun. I’ve made many fine living room forts out of them.
Stack them to make castles
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
Giving up isn't an option
by Cillo stache on Oct 19, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
And with enough tinfoil cheesesteak wrappers on the ‘roof’ they apparently make decent alternate housing.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
How many fridges did you have during your childhood/adolescence/adulthood?
Jason Peters: Heart of a Lion, Face of a Chipmunk.
Eli Manning has the personality of a baked potato.
Not that anyone is aware of. Maybe he knows about some hedious crime that Snider is guilty of.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
We all know that crime. It’s his contract.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
BECAUSE IF WE WAIVE HIM THAN ANOTHER TEAM CAN CLAIM HIM—-GOD FORBID!
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
What I’d do:
Trade Hartnell to wherever he wants to be so he’ll waive his NTC or NMC. Yes, you might just end up getting a pick, but whatever
Find Bill Guerin, wherever he might be hiding. Sign him to veteran minimum. Put him on 4th line
Release Jody Shelley, hope for Betts to get better
Your fourth line is now Bill Guerin, Blair Betts and Max Talbot. And you save money, and potentially acquire a pick.
You’re welcome
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 1:21 PM EDT reply actions
Guerin retired. I’d be willing to bet he’s fat and relaxing by a lake with a beer and a fishing pole.
Retiring is the new off-season
and I’d bet he’s still in relatively decent game shape
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Last year the Flyers cut Guerin because Nodl was better than him (and Betts). This year the Flyers cut Betts because Cooter is better than him. So now we want to get the retired player—-worst of them all? And lose Hartnell for a 4th rounder? No thanks.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
that retired player you speak of is precisely the player you want on the 4th line. It’s not as if he needs more playing experience. he has a limited role, and is a great locker-room presence.
Hartnell is what we call a toxic asset. His NMC/NTC, declining play, and large salary make him difficult to move. So, you end up losing Hartnell’s value. perhaps he’d be worth a 2nd if he didn’t have the baggage, but because he does, you are looking at, at best, a late 3rd or early 4th round pick. Analyze the situation before you say no thanks
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn’t describe Hartnell as declining. He’s not old or injury prone. I agree that you won’t get much for him at the moment, (maybe later in the season as injuries pile up) but that has more to do with his cap hit. Not because of declining play. The guy has been a 20-25 goal scorer almost every year.
Then take declining play out of the equation: you have a player that seemingly doesn’t fit in anywhere, youth that is pushing him out of the top 3 lines and an abject contract
He’s losing value by being on your team, which directly affects his perceived value across the league
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
that retired player you speak of is precisely the player you want on the 4th line.
Dude got cut at 40 and you think he can make the squad at 41 after the only hockey he played was the Winter Classic Alum game? Cooter skates circles over grandpa.
a great locker-room presence
1. Pronger
2. Timo
3. Briere
4. Jagr
5. Bryz
6. Lilja
7. Hartnell
8. Talbot
Spot reserved for first guy who brings nothing to the table but “character”:
Jody Shelley
Second spot reserved for guy who brings nothing but "grit""
Matt Walker
We don’t need more character guys.
Hartnell is what we call a toxic asset
Long-term? Maybe. Short term, you couldn’t be more wrong. Say what you want about him but there aren’t many guys in the NHL who can protect two elite prospects (Schenn/Read), while banging the boards and bodies, chip in a few goals, and is that “character guy” you speak of. He’s got this year and next year left on his deal, but he is a top 7-9 forward in this organization. Who would you rather have in his role? Sestito (maybe if those PP goals continue and he gets .5 Points/Game in the A this year), Testwuide, Cooter? No.
So, you end up losing Hartnell’s value
Scott Hartnell’s value is not lost. He’s still playing—-producing aka earning his value.
perhaps he’d be worth a 2nd if he didn’t have the baggage, but because he does, you are looking at, at best, a late 3rd or early 4th round pick
If he didn’t make 4.2 and only made around 2.1 he’d be a very solid asset that no one would want to move. But because he makes 4.2 no one wants him! You name me one team that would take Harts FOR FREE? None. Too much $$$. We’d have to “Upshall” him aka: We traded Upshall AND A SECOND ROUND PICK for Carcillo. In order to move Harts we’d have to package him with picks and prospects to get picks/prospects or we’d have to bring back another overpriced player in return. We are 4-0-1. He plays on a line with 2 rookies and they are a combined +8. I analyzed the situation. You apparently have not.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually have
Dude got cut at 40 and you think he can make the squad at 41 after the only hockey he played was the Winter Classic Alum game? Cooter skates circles over grandpa.
I don’t see where I said one is better than the other. I don’t see where I said guerin would be taking Scooter’s spot. So what you said is completely irrelevant
Say what you want about him but there aren’t many guys in the NHL who can protect two elite prospects (Schenn/Read), while banging the boards and bodies, chip in a few goals, and is that "character guy" you speak of.
Joel Ward
Steve Ott
Chris Kunitz
Mike Knuble
James Neal
Michael Ryder
All do what hartnell does for cheaper. He’s replaceable.
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Joel Ward
Steve Ott
Chris Kunitz
Mike Knuble
James Neal
Michael Ryder
All do what hartnell does for cheaper. He’s replaceable.
If you could pull off a Hartnell for any of those guys trade, you could be my GM any time.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
yeah, you know why? because any GM knows that Scott Hartnell is not as nearly as good as any of those players, but is paid more than any of them
I was challenged to find guys who could so hartnell’s role for cheaper. I found 6 without looking too deeply
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Scott Hartnell is not as nearly as good as any of those players
Joel Ward and Steve Ott? Are you serious?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you figure. Hartnell had 49 points last year, Ward had 29 and Ott had 32. How is that “just as effectively”?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Hartnell went from the teams #1 scoring line to the #3. Ward and Ott have always played on the #3 lines(Ott may have played #2 before, but on a weaker offensive team).
Scott Hartnell has never had a Flyers season within ten points of Ward and Ott’s last year.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Ward and Ott are both great defensively. I mean, great.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Cap values irrelivant I’d rather have Harts on this team than Ward, Ott and Kunitz.
Knuble-Schenn-Read would be amazing, not gonna lie.
Neal is a stud… so obviously he’s in there.
Ryder would be nice as well, but again, nothing like Hartnell.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
cap values aren’t irrelevant. That’s like saying, well the salary cap aside, I’d like Crosby Ovechkin and Ryan on the wing. That’s my team
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Where should Hartnell’s money go? We obviously have a set roster that’s pretty good. You wanna change it—-to be cheaper? It makes no sense.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
who said there’s a correlation between being tight up against the cap, and being the best team. Come on now, you’re saying the Flyers should be up against the cap every year because you believe it makes them the best team. Do you know how stupid that sounds?
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Common sense? Top 5 capgeek teams: Vancouver, Pitt, Philly, Washington, Buffalo. 19-6-4 record this year including 3 first place teams, 1 second place team (Pit behind philly or vice versa) and Vancouver—-who’s been struggling (and is responsible for 3 of the 6 regulation losses).
Bottom 5:
PHX, Car, Col, Dal, NYI. You tell me if there’s a coorelation
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Care to give us a better analysis with last year’s teams, and only of the teams that were tight up against the ceiling, and the teams that still spent, but gave themselves wiggle room.
Not saying it would be different, but that would actually address CCB’s point correctly, what you did doesn’t really say much besides hey, 2 weeks in to this season teams that spent all the money they could have good records and the teams that could barely reach the floor don’t. CCB never mentioned anything about teams at the salary floor.
Just a suggestion though, didn’t mean to butt in.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
The analysis was a sarcastic remark showing that teams that are near the cap are usually better (I’m sure if I had the time I could give a big elaborate graph with a nice positive slope showing as salary goes up so does points) than teams who dont/cant spend money.
I’m making 2 main points:
1. If Hartnell didn’t make 4.2, and made 2.5ish, he’d be a very solid asset.
2. The money is spent and the roster is set. It looks sucsessful. Hartnell is producing—-its not like he’s playing horribly. Why dump salary just because. Have a plan—-this team does not need a 4th round pick and 4.2 more million to spend. We need a winger to play with two skilled rookies—-who can both distribute—- and bang bodies on the boards and camp out in front. Hart’s puts in 35 points this year without any PP time—-tough to do. With injuries and PP time, he’ll be atop 40 again—-which is right on par for a 2nd line winger according to last years totals.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
4.2 more million to spend.
I disagree. Wholeheartedly
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Where would you spend the money now that the roster is set. What move would you make. You never answered the question. If your Homer, what is your plan to move him?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly? I would’ve extended Carle while people were down on him during last year’s playoffs. I would’ve extended his contract.
Defense is this team’s biggest priority with Kimmo and Prongs aging.
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this. That 4.2 mil could be used a number of different ways. Carle would be probably my top priority.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
All this Carle appreciation makes me so happy. Ever since we traded for him I’ve been a fan, and when Timo leaves Carle is the man I see replacing his role.
Any reason why he’s been seen as trade bait throughout his tenure here by some?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
because we’re up against the cap every damned year. We have no options. Other people see that
We see that
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
To get off the cap, there’s better options than Carle.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Again, I’m agreeing with you lol
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is he trade bait?
My guess, he is young, affordable and good. None of our other defensemen fit into all of those categories. Most of them are not affordable, all of them are good, half of them are old.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Trade Bait is usually a player you don’t need though. I feel the Flyers can’t afford to lose Carle, or if he was traded he’d require a big deal in return.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I agree with you, but I think we can wait until the offseason to do that. Getting rid of a veteran wing right now isn’t what we need with such a young team.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
no, but the idea is that you cash in when his value is at his lowest. By letting him play another year, (and if you believe he will be successful), you are guaranteed to be paying more during this off-season
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
We can also extend Carle at any point this season and it will not effect our cap (see JVR) so trading Hartnell during the season and extending Carle aren’t directly related right now.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
He lead the league in ES points for defense men. How on earth is his value low?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Value is also based on perception. Right now I’m pretty sure the perception is that Pronger carries Carle.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
So you didn’t answer the question, still. Okay, you extend Carle for next year—-but you still have 4.2 sitting there for this year? Well 4.2+Walker’s 1.7+ Shelley’s 1.1. What’s your move?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Sit on it.
By sitting, you have options
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m on your side, but I’ll give the answer anyway.
Right now, they can’t afford to call anyone up. If they need an extra player for a couple of games, they’d have to do something like send Walker down and call up Gus + Rinaldo. And then fear of getting Walker claimed on re-entry waivers (and the 50% cap hit that would result) might mean Walker was stuck in the AHL for the rest of the year.
It’s not something they need to move $4.2M to accommodate, but clearing $1M or so would be nice.
This scenario might sound unlikely, since it requires two people to be out but not off the cap (i.e. not out for long enough to go on LTIR). But it’s not unheard of for two guys to both get the flu, or for one guy to get suspended and another one to get hurt, and a little cap space would come in handy.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
The analysis was a sarcastic remark showing that teams that are near the cap are usually better (I’m sure if I had the time I could give a big elaborate graph with a nice positive slope showing as salary goes up so does points) than teams who dont/cant spend money.
But that’s still missing CCB’s point. You can still spend enough for a more than competitive team without being tight up against the ceiling. If you want t ignore what he was getting at and make a joke out of it fine, but your sarcasm didn’t address what he was saying.
I understand your point, you don’t have to reiterate, I was just simply pointing out a poor response.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
1. With Walker’s 1.7 ready to come off whenever we want, are we really that tight up against the cap?
2. With no disrespect to CBB, he never had a point. He said he wants to trade Hartnell (impossible) for (he never gave us a return) so he could …sign Matt Carle (something we can already do right now). He is bashing Hartnell with no evidence to back it up and on top of it, naming random players who do not fit Hartnells role and have not had his production, ever, saying that we should get these guys? How? When? Why?
The whole point about being up against the cap is irrelevant because with 2 quick moves we have 2.8 in room (Walker/Shelley).
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Your reading comprehension must be shit
no disrespect
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not taking anyone’s side here on the rest of this, no need to sales pitch me; frankly, if you know me at all you can probably guess who’s side of this I am on as far as Hartnell, etc. I just pointed out a poor response to a simple point of spending to the point of handcuffing a team doesn’t ensure anything but having to get very creative throughout the year when variables are thrown in to the mix because to me that was the only interesting/funny thing I saw in this whole discussion.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
who said there’s a correlation between being tight up against the cap, and being the best team.
There are plenty of teams that spend near to the cap and don’t do much at all, but there isn’t a single team that’s really, really good without spending big bucks (Nashville is the best budget team, unless there’s another I’m not aware of).
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by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking at last year’s playoff teams by cap space, I’d rank Nashville third, behind Phoenix and Tampa. Below are all the playoff teams with at least $3m in cap space, per NHLNumbers. I’d rank Phoenix #1, Tampa #2, and Nashville #3.
Phoenix – 99 points, $9.186m cap space
Nashville – 99 points, $8.569m cap space
Tampa – 103 points, $7.874m cap space
Los Angeles – 98 points, $3.786m cap space
Pittsburgh – 106 points, $3.588m cap space
Buffalo – 96 points, $3.556m cap space
Anaheim – 99 points, $3.194m cap space
Bob.
Right, forgot about those two. Good call (I like Nashville over Phoenix, though).
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This year, I like Nashville more. Phoenix got the same number of points in what I consider a tougher division, while spending less, which was why I gave them a bit of a bump.
Bob.
by The Dark on Oct 20, 2011 11:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bill Guerin should not be mentioned on this site regarding this years roster. That is a joke. He’d be hard-pressed to get minutes on the Phantoms.
Joel Ward’s best year: 35 points with 1 career fight.
Steve Ott’s best year: 46 points, coming off a 32 point season.
Chris Kunitz is less than 200 pounds with no more than two fights in one year, ever. He does not “do what hartnell does”
Mike Knuble has 5 career fights. He’s 40.
James Neal: Career high of 55 points, 4 career fights.
Michael Ryder: No NHL fights.
You just named 6 good players, who are all cheaper than Harts, who are absolutly HORRIBLE comparisons to Scott Hartnell.
Since he’s been a Flyer:
43, 60, 44, 49 points.
6.5 fights per year.
You act like Scott is a bad player when in reality he has a bad contract. Two totally different things. If his hit wasn’t 3+, no one would be on him at all.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
correction: If he hadn’t been pushed into the bottom 6, no one would be on him at all. (point though, I disagree with CCB and have been suprised with how well Hartnell has been D-wise. I was sure he would pull the 3rd line down. Apparently HBL was all B and Ls fault on D.)
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
If he hadn’t been pushed into the bottom 6, no one would be on him at all
Not necessarily, he’d still be grossly overpaid. He was pushed out by the signings, not by the performance though. G, JVR, and Briere were already above him. Jagr was certainly brought in to be top-6 as was Voracek. Simmonds was supposed to be third line guy but like its been said above, we just roll lines like its our job, who cares if its number 1, 2, 3, or 4???
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I have been advocating Hartnell leaving town for … how many seasons has he been here now?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You just described Hartnell as a toxic asset that has value. Perhaps your vision is skewed today because Homer followed your advice and demoted Rinaldo. Guerin? Seriously?
“Toxic asset” is a popular term for certain financial assets whose value has fallen significantly and for which there is no longer a functioning market, so that such assets cannot be sold at a price satisfactory to the holder.
Is there a functioning market for him?
Can he be sold at a price satisfactory to the holder?
The answer, to both, I believe is no.
How is my vision skewed? You bring a guy in at the veteran minimum who plays the 4th line roll well and is reliable.
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
whose value has fallen significantly
He had 49 points last year, good for 90th in the league—- for those keeping track at home that’s below average first liner/ elite second liner.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
And now he’s on our 3rd line! Isn’t that a good thing!?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
no, it’s not. Because that’s million of dollars elsewhere that could be spent on a need. That’s what people don’t understand, depth is good, but overpaid depth is very bad
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
what’s 5/82?
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That is the percentage of certainty we have that Couturier stays w/ the Flyers for the rest of the season.
Right, so we established that it’s a small sample size. But in about 4 games, that doesn’t matter, because he’ll have a full contract. But you make a great point. What happens if something happens to Scooter? Flexibility is desired
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Guerin was just me nitpicking a guy I liked. Does it have to be Guerin? Nope. it can be anyone who is sufficient at the 4th line, works on the PK, takes faceoffs, or any one of these.
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
We havn’t lost in regulation. That doesn’t mean anything?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s 5 games. You can’t be serious
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Scott hartnell and his linemates are +8 combined. He’s got 2 points, Read has 4. Why woudl you want to split them up? There obviously is some chemistry. Harts had a great assist on the second goal of the NJ game to Read.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree it would be nice to have the cap space especially come this off season when we have to reup Coburn and hopefully even keep Carle. But where would we be spending this money at this year? We have a crowded roster as it is.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s about having flexibility. Maybe with that extra money you go out and find a defenseman better than Matt Walker. Maybe you pay for a center who can take faceoffs. Maybe you get a PK specialist
It’s about options. With hartnell, you have considerably less options
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe with that extra money you go out and find a defenseman better than Matt Walker
Matt Walker costs 1.7 million. He will be sent down soon. Then we have 1.7 million—-plenty to do whatever we need to do. And we have a better #7, his name is Gus, gaining experience in the AHL.
Who replaces the consistant 45 points from Hartnell when you trade him and a third for a fifth (thats all he’s gonna get you)?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think Hartnell will get 45 pts while on the 3rd line?
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Without PP time, he’ll be atop 35. With PP time he could hit 40. But the key is the PP time. His ESP/60 wont fall substantially, but it will fall a little bit.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
are there 6 better options than him on the PP?
Giroux
Jagr
JVR
Briere
Simmonds
Voracek
The answer is: yes
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I would also add Read and possibly Schenn to that list.
Hartnell has one job on a power play, to camp out in front of the net. And now Simmonds can do that. So Hartnell’s is a 4.2 mil redundancy.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Good call on Read n Schenn, I didn’t see your response.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think Hartnell will get 45 pts while on the 3rd line?
Without PP time, he’ll be atop 35
What part didn’t you understand? I acknowledged he’s not getting PP time, and that he’ll be from 35-40 this year. You can throw Read and Schenn on that list—-Hart’s is probably our 9th PP guy this year…
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
So now i only have to find a guy who will score in the neighborhood of 30-35 points, is within the organization, and I’d support them taking his job, at the fraction of the price?
You are now paying a 35 point guy 4.2 million dollars. You’ve made my point for me. Thank you
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding an extra center is the last thing we would want to do. The only way you get rid of Hartnell is if we can get a guy on the wing who scores more than 25 goals per year at less than 4.2 mil. Keeping Hartnell for the season will be beneficial if someone gets hurt or we need strong veteran play up front with all the young guys. Otherwise wait until this season plays out before we start casting more people away.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t we trade Powe for a third round pick? You can’t believe that even with the contract, he is worth the same amount as Powe
Powe didn’t have a NMC/NTC and a 4.2 million dollar salary.
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually Powe didn’t have a contract when we traded him. Homer didn’t tender an offer. I think that was a mistake, shoulda kept him for a cheaper price and shorter term than what we gave Max Tidbit.
I completely agree with you. Not bringing back powe was a mistake. People saw value in an RFA with a low cap hit that could play tough minutes. What do you think hartnell would garner, all things considered
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 19, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t necessarily think it is the worst thing in the world to have coturier on the fourth line. Honestly, when you are undefeated in your first 5 games I wouldnt change anything, but that’s another story.
First, I don’t see how you can justify replacing zac with Shelley. Zac for the most part has made major strides to becoming a more disciplined player. It won’t happen overnight. Last night he fought konopka!! There are heavy weights out there that don’t want to fight him.
Second, the flyers are hoping that Coturier can turn into a prototypical third line center. A center who is strong in his own end, and is responsible for tough defensive minutes. If the flyers roll 4 lines, I don’t agree that it will hurt his development down there. Nothing is set in stone and we will see the lines change 1000 times this year, I wouldnt worry about it too much.
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by nastynas88 on Oct 19, 2011 1:35 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Zac for the most part has made major strides to becoming a more disciplined player
While this may be true, getting a mouse to stretch his nose doesn’t make him that much more an elephant. The kid’s a liability. Let him do his maturing in the AHL, not slaughtering the NHL squad with penalties.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Why can’t this happen:
Waive Shelley and Walker, Rinaldo to Phantoms, call up Zolniercyzk and Gustafsson
van Riemsdyk – Giroux – Jagr
Briere – Schenn – Simmonds
Hartnell – Couturier – Read
Zolniercyzk – Talbot – Nodl/Rinaldo
Pronger – Carle
Timonen – Coburn
Meszaros – Gustafsson/Lilja
Bryzgalov/Bobrovsky
Does that not look like the best/most logical team we could put on the ice? I’d like to see Hartnell traded but this is the best I think we could do with what we have
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Briere on the wing is not a good idea...
Am I wrong, or didn’t we already try this in most of ‘09-’10 before the H-B-L line got formed in the playoffs?? That year Briere only had 53 points in 75 games and was a -2. He’s much better as a center. I remember people talking about how he kept getting out of position defensively on the wing, and not that he is a good defensive center by any means, but at least he’s more comfortable in that role. I don’t think I wanna see him as a LW.
by FooFighter1124 on Oct 19, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Briere on the wing didn’t work out and he really isn’t suited for the position. Not to mention you are missing our 2nd line RW.
by youtastelikeaburger on Oct 19, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
But that’s just it, he isn’t a good defensive center. He’s been good on faceoffs, but he gets pushed around too much and ends up getting too many slashing and high sticking penalties because he’s trying to compensate, Schenn at least gives you a little more size and Briere can focus less on defensive responsibilities and more on offense. I think a player as good as Briere can adapt.
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Briere wouldn’t be on the ice for many defensive situations, that’s the point. And we saw last year that moving him back to center made him play his game better. This far into his career, he isn’t going to “adapt.” See Ryan Howard as a reference.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 19, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess the problem is that if Briere can’t move to the wing, and Couturier has to move to the 4th line C, then it’s a waste of Couturier’s talent unless the 4th line averages a few more minutes than they currently do, in addition to Couturier staying as the #1 PK C
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
a waste of Couturier’s talent
Its not a waste of his defensive talent—-that does take talent too.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Not according to Red Army Line … for whatever that’s worth.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you interpret
Talent on offense is harder to find than talent on defense.
to mean “defense doesn’t require talent”?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I meant his offensive talent, poor choice of words, sorry.
He’s shown some offensive potential when given offensive zone opportunities and I feel like he wouldn’t get many of those chances is he was on the 4th line.
At the same time he obviously has been good defensively and that role seems to fit him well so far so I can’t really bitch other than for the sake of bitching.
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Perhaps I am oevrstating slightly – but in my conversations with RAL, he places basically no emphasis on defensive abilities at all, at the complete expense of offense. So a player like Manny Malhotra or Blair Betts isn’t worth beans in his world.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Without seeing the conversations in question, I might be wrong, but just judging from what I know of RAL’s commentary in general, that would surprise me. My hunch is that something got mis-stated and/or mis-interpreted here.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Perhaps I came away from our last conversation with a rotten taste in my mouth. But in essence he (?) was saying that 4th liners were a dime-a-dozen, with no variance among them. So Zac Rinaldo and Blair Betts were roughly equivalent; either was just a roster filler with little value added.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it’s that you’ll have an easier time finding some guy from the AHL to plug into your 4th line and not look completely overwhelmed than some guy to plug into the 2nd line and not look completely overwhelmed. They may not be great, but fill in in a small role and not look out of place? Sure. The offensive guys end up taking most of the TOI anyway.
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps I am oevrstating slightly – but in my conversations with RAL, he places basically no emphasis on defensive abilities at all, at the complete expense of offense. So a player like Manny Malhotra or Blair Betts isn’t worth beans in his world.
I find myself often on the other side—you have no idea how many people need convincing that Joel Ward isn’t overpaid or that Tomas Fleischmann and Ilya Kovalchuk aren’t even close to as impactful as their raw offense suggests. If anything, I overvalue defense. That being said, there’s a reason most of the minutes go to guys who can score.
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I rescind my statements.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
If you were thinking about the Talbot importance thread, Talbot is a perfect example of what I’m trying to say. Those guys are floating around in UFA or in the minors or can be had for a low draft pick. Playing ten minutes a night, you could obviously do better than Talbot, but he’s not terrible. (regarding PK, my point was that he’s not needed as much if you just slot someone else in there instead for that small bit of TOI. Such is life of 4th liners. Not quite interchangeable, but very close)
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t you want Couturier to get more minutes than the 4th line is likely to get though? If he gets more than a few garbage minutes plus PK it wouldn’t be too bad I guess…
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Nope, everything I’ve heard of this kid is that he’s got a great head on his shoulders and he’s a student of the game. He has the physical skills and they will continue to develop—-he is only 18. It’s the mental side that he’ll lose out on. From an experience standpoint would you rather have him learning from a coach who he’s had for three years or from guys like Pronger, Timo, and Talbot (who he is out there for the start of every PK with)?
And oh by the way, Cooter will get some opportunites to play with top-9 guys. Hockey is a long season folks.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Very true, my problem with it is I just don’t want to see Couturier stuck on the 4th line until 2015 when Briere’s contract is up. Hope Lavy gets him some top 9 time because he’s shown some flashes of good vision and playmaking skills
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
He’ll be top-9 next year, 100% but for this year, I’m fine with him grinding all year long. 3 points in 5 games isn’t bad. If he gets 30+ I’ll be happy.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
How will Couturier be a top-9 guy next year though? Briere’s contract isn’t up until the end of the 2014-2015 season and Briere can’t move to the wing, which leaves our centers for the next 4 years (most likely) as Giroux, Briere, Schenn, and Couturier. If this stays the case, it seems like Couturier isn’t gonna get the chance to be a top 9 guy for 4 more years.
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
If Jagr goes:
JVR-G-Simmonds
Schenn-Briere-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Nodl
Shelley/Rinaldo/Sestito-Holmstrom-Wellwood?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If Schenn can play wing that’s awesome and I love the sound of this^, I was under the impression that he was going to stay at center though
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Carter-Richards-Briere-G
Cooter-Schenn-Briere-G
We’ll figure it out. Someone will take a wing whether its Schenn or Cooter.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
2015 ugh.
I’m starting to think the Flyers would be better off is they just found a way to unload Briere, which I know is impossible due to his cap hit and NTC, but it would clear out the log jam at center and open up a ton of cap space.
I kinda wish he didn’t produce so well in the playoffs or that he wasn’t a good guy so I could just wish him away.
But then where would Couturier live? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
The velociraptor was offended when you used the word "fossil" as a derogatory term to describe that older player. "A 'fossil'?! MY MOTHER IS A FOSSIL." You jerk.
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by LeepinLizardz on Oct 19, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It wasn’t a good contract, but the market was slightly different that offseason.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
They were also God awful and I doubt anyone expected them to be able to turn it around as quickly as they did. I always thought they threw that big contract at Briere so there would at least be an exciting player to watch while they waited for the rest of the team to come together. Kids maturing into their roles, etc. When everything happened ahead of schedule, it suddenly made Briere’s contract the elephant in the room.
by EC.Comedy on Oct 19, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, no one expected Richards and Carter to develop as quickly as they did—and when they finished dead last, you knew there would be a big splash in free agency.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
You completely cut a top 6 guy out of your lineup. Do we trade him for another roomate for Briere?
by TheRealBoyer on Oct 19, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i addressed this mistake in an earlier comment
SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY SORRY
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
The great thing about all these roster and line “issues” is that these are pretty awesome problems to have. When we are all worried about what line to put any of our young guys or rookies…thats a great problem to have. I love this team so far. The future looks mighty bright.
Let’s just hope that the future sticks around this time.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 19, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
This is great. For those freaking out about Shelley, he’s not going to play—-at least not when it counts. If the playoffs started tomorrow here are the lines:
JVR-G-Jagr
Voracek-Briere-Simmonds
Harts-Schenn-Read
Big Harts does the dirty work for the two rookies and Schenn is way more polished offensivly than Cooter with out a doubt—-and is by no means a “liability” defensivly as he’s probably better than Cooter in that regard too.
Talbot-Cooter-Nodl
This is an outstanding fourth line. Three guys who kill PKs and who are all gifted athletically. Shelley might get some spot starts and fill in for the injured guys, but you can rest assured that these three will be the fourth line come playoff time assuming no moves. Managment has no interest in having Shelley in the lineup over Nodl in a must win game. As for limiting Cooters development—-what is all of the fuss about? You are taking all of the pressure away from him by giving him this role. We don’t need Cooter to be a goal scorer this year—-we need defense. If he is our best option for the fourth center option—-let him play! So what if in three years yada yada yada. You play to win the game. In three years (or six for that matter) this team will be unrecognizable. For the near future you know who the top two centers will be: Giroux and Briere. That leaves two more center spots—-Schenner and Cooter. I’m fine with burning a year of his ELC because he is the best player for the role.
Cap hit aside, at least Jody Shelley has a few more brain cells than Rinaldo. So that’s a gain.
Ideally Hartnell would be placed on the 4th line, but I am not convinced that Lavi would do that.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Are we sure about this? I don’t think he’s any smarter, just a bit less batshit crazy.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
a bit less batshit crazy
Exactly. When I say a “few more brain cells,” I mean that literally.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Jody Shelley has a few more brain cells than Rinaldo
That’s like saying the mental jump between Forrest Gump and Lloyd Christmas is worth noting.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Not disagreeing.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
This team has a weird feel to it...
High end prospects and great goaltending…I’m so confused.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
by Pardini36 on Oct 19, 2011 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Schenn's Ability
IDK about you guys, but I watched Schenn throughout the preseason and he straight-up sucked. I know he’s pounding it out in the AHL, but how do you guys feel about what he’s brining?
He was hurt in the preseason and we already know that what you see then is in no way indicative of what we will see during the regular season. Jagr tore it up in the preseason but hasn’t scored yet. Voracek couldn’t buy a goal in preseason and now already has a few.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 19, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Schenn was injuried trough most of training camp.
by Anders Jensen on Oct 19, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
he straight-up sucked
8 points in 4 games
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 19, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Schenn had one point in 4 games in NHL preseason; the 8 in 4 is AHL. I don’t think that qualifies as ‘sucked’ but it is less convincing.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Oct 19, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention they were pretty exclusively putting him in Defensive roles this preseason, as well as almost all the PKs.
I really liked Schenn better than Cooter in the preseason overall hockey wise.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Schenn-Cooter-Read
I can’t decide if that sounds more like a law firm or a political scandal.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
That’s good news, because he was pushed off the puck like he was 5…. AND he looked scared out there. He reminded me of Kevin Kolb in the pocket.
HE WAS INJURED
The velociraptor was offended when you used the word "fossil" as a derogatory term to describe that older player. "A 'fossil'?! MY MOTHER IS A FOSSIL." You jerk.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Oct 19, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do we have so much talent and depth at center again? I thought we we're trying to get rid of that when we traded Richards and Carter
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Lines vs WSH
van Riemsdyk – Giroux – Jagr
Voracek – Briere – Schenn
Hartnell – Couturier – Simmonds
Shelley – Talbot – Read
Justification: Schenn gets to play top 6 minutes with Briere and Voracek. Couturier continues to play his 3rd line center position (remaining in the top 9) on a grinding line with Simmonds and Hartnell. Obviously wouldn’t mind seeing Nodl in Shelley’s spot on the 4th line if he is healthy.
Opposing Ilya Bryzgalov as Philadelphia Flyers' goalie since June 23, 2011.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
Carchidi said it looks like Flyers will have an all-rookie line vs the Caps, idk where you got these lines, but i’m gonna wait til they’re confirmed to worry anymore about them lol
Bullies, Phightins, and Vickerbockers
Assuming Carchidi isn’t talking out of his ass, I would assume that means:
JVR-G-Jagr
Voracek-Briere-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Schenn
Shelley/Nodl-Talbot-Hartnell
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
I like this line here too. Briere would have another nifty artist with him. Maybe swap Hartnell and Voracek on occasion to mix things up.
by TheRealBoyer on Oct 19, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Boy, I’m really glad I didn’t drop Schenn in fantasy yesterday. My “gut” told me not to listen to others’ advice. And holy crap, my gut was right! I would be a great real team manager! Too bad I’m a girl :(
The velociraptor was offended when you used the word "fossil" as a derogatory term to describe that older player. "A 'fossil'?! MY MOTHER IS A FOSSIL." You jerk.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
i'm sure this has been said a number of times... but
we roll 4 lines deep… constant pressure (lavi style).
couturier can center talbot and nodl.
schenn can center the 3rd line.
done and done.
even strength ice time
line 1 = 17min/60
line 2 = 17min/60
line 3 = 13min/60
line 4 = 13min/60
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
Discipline and/or OT every game?
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 19, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
ummm…. it’s divided per 60min of even strength time… soooooo yeah.
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 19, 2011 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
let me be more clear…
yes those would be the TOI if the game was penalty-less by either team…
but really i’m just presenting a percentage:
care for the math?
line 1 gets about 28% of total ES TOI
line 2 “…”
line 3 gets about 22% of total ES TOI
line 4 “…”
add indivdual PP and PK time and subtract any balancing and ES rest added for extensive PP or PK time and you’ll get the an actual average prediction.
for example: likely the 4th line would get less ES time than scheduled because they also get significant PK time… but semantics…
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 19, 2011 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
but that’s how this all works anyways… coaches schedule/plan individual TOI and carefully keep track of minutes in-game to match their game plan.
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 19, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Currently:
Briere 18.54
JVR 17.73
Simmonds 17.04
Giroux 16.71
Voracek 16.39
Hartnell 16.23
Jagr 15.67
Couturier 14.91
Read 14.62
Talbot 13.24
Nodl 10.67
Rinaldo 8.23
Let’s assume Shelley that will take Rinaldo’s minutes exactly and Nodl is in the press box. Schenn either takes Max’s minutes or takes Couturier’s, and everyone gets bumped down one. The numbers seem to work well enough.
Still, I’m not sure ES minutes matter so much as quality of teammate and competition. Either Schenn or Couturier is getting Talbot and Shelley, and that line is seeing a lot of their own zone.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
There’s a lot of talk about how bad the Senators are, but I am glad the Flyers beat them like they are a bad team. A lot of times they play teams like that poorly. So instead of seeing it as an easy win, I see it as a character building win.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I wouldn’t say a lot of the time. I would say they play roughly the same number of good and bad games against the weak competition as they do against strong, but that we definitely notice the losses to bad teams more.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
So I didn’t thoroughly read the thread, but just skimming it I got the impression the Flyers are trading Scott Hartnell for Steve Ott. Suh-WEET!
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
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