Why Sean Couturier Should Be Returned to Juniors
I just posted this on SB Nation Philly, but you all will probably find it more interesting. And it's a lot easier to comment here than there.
7 months ago
Geoff Detweiler
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Goddammit.
Well, Ive always been on the fence. I like Couturier on the Flyers, he’s been great. He’s really exceeded my expectations, and is living up to the “HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRST BUT WE GOT HIM YEAAAHHH” hype.
But, as its been said, I agree that we should put him down for a year atleast. Between Jagr being a UFA next year, and a few other contracts starting to get tight/ending soon, there’ll eventually be a perfect spot for Sean to fit into this line up, instead of, as we’ve said, working with Shelley and Talbot or something.
I DONT WANT TO SAY GOODBYE TO SCOOTER AND HIS WONDERFUL MISSING FRONT TEETH…but its for the best. And if we trade anyone, instead of getting a player, we could trade for draft picks for once, replace that traded player with Scooter, and then go into a draft with a chance at Seandon Readerczyk 2.0, or something.
Mr. Corsi Fenwick, you confuse the hell outta me.
Agree that it makes no sense to burn an ELC year for him to play on the 4th line. High production from guys on an ELC is gold in this NHL. You’ve simply got to have some of it happening. Couturier just won’t get enough minutes on the 4th line to make an impact, so why burn a year?
Another thing: his play has been good, but the dropoff is almost inevitable. Whether it comes in 2 days, 2 weeks or 2 months, he’s going to struggle eventually. All rookies do. If he’s a bit bigger and stronger on his first ELC year, though, that probably gets pushed back a little.
Either he or Schenn probably can’t stay with the big club.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
I disagree but see the point. If we let him slide this year that means he’s under contract for the 14-15 season. If we don’t let him slide then he’s not under contract and is an RFA. I’m okay with that because we only have five other guys under contract that far in advance: Pronger (3), Briere (1), Talbot (3), JVR (4). I think he’s actually above Nodl in my book right now. According to IP+/- (the new kinda sorta stat I invented) he’s the best ES player to the team in direct relation to his % of goals for less his % of goals against.
It’s not just about that though. It’s about Couturier being a 4th line center right now. It’s about Couturier being 18 years old. It’s about the depth the Flyers have. It’s about maximizing value of ELCs.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
But at what point does it come down to statistics? How about evaluating his play? When does the value of the player (eg. Hall, RNH, Seguin, Landeskog, Larsson, Skinner) overpower the value of the 4th year of the ELC (3+slide)?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
That depends on the team and its roster and makeup.
Skinner provided something (scoring) that CAR just didn’t have elsewhere. Seguin played C on a BOS team that had lost Bergeron and needed someone to fill those minutes.
Hall and Eberle are playing for a bad team that has nothing to lose by letting them develop at the NHL level.
The point is that Couturier doesn’t provide any productivity – at least it’s very probable he doesn’t – that the Flyers could get from someone else who is cheaper. And at the same time, he’s probably more productive over the course of his ELC if he gets another year to grow and get stronger.
The factor that Geoff does not address is this: if Couturier does go down and come back stronger, presumably he puts up better stats over the three years of his ELC, which will lead to a larger payout in his RFA years.
But I still think the right thing to do is send him down.
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The point is that Couturier doesn’t provide any productivity – at least it’s very probable he doesn’t – that the Flyers could get from someone else who is cheaper.
4 points in 6 games is productivity, including one on his “fourth line” with Talbot and Nodl. We all know Nodl can play vs. top competition and Talbot has experience with elite teammates (played with Crosby). If this line gels, even if it doesn’t play strictly vs. top competition, it can be a very effective line to use vs. 3rd and 4th lines ESPECIALLY if we don’t need to shelter Briere by giving him responsible wingers to cover for his line.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Everything you’re saying Blair Betts can do. How is this a good use of an 18 year old #8 overall pick?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
what a joke
betts is a joke .. hes done .. he will never play again .. coutier isnt going anywhere .. what if we send him down and he slacks off or is unmotivated becuase he knows he belonged in the nhl .. hes staying .. and he should stay .. theres no excuse to move him down now .. hes proved he can play .. one injury and hes a top 9 player .. or a hartnell trade .. carter did fine playing on the 4th line his rookie year
Considering Yakupov put up numbers comparable to the top 2011 picks (Nugent-Hopkins, Strome, Couturier) at a draft year younger, and Couturier didn’t even begin to touch guys like Hall, Tavares, Stamkos, and Kane, he definitely has some work to do.
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by red army line on Oct 23, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Other than be used differently, what does (or did he have to do) Cooter have to justify having him here? Through six games his numbers are astronomically higher than anyone thought they would be.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
To me, he can do nothing to justify it. Teams who want to be Stanley Cup contenders but do not have a 12-15 minutes per game, top-9 role for an 18 year old should not keep the player up. He doesn’t help them if he isn’t Jordan Staal.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Gms want to find the next staal
Low risk high reward. If holmgren does not get us to the cup in the next 2 years he is probably gone (with prongs and timonen?) anyway. So why wouldn’t he want to give lavi the best 12 guys he can to run his scheme night in and night out. U don’t stay gm without taking risks. I guess 9 years for a goalie counts, but this would be another feather in his cap if coots is fo real for 82+ games
tyler sequin
sequin was kept all year by boston and than paid dividends in the end and playoffs ..
Paid dividends in one game in the playoffs.
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by red army line on Oct 23, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
How long was Bobby Clarke GM without a Cup?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 23, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That is a good point about getting more as an RFA than he would if he played 18-20 instead of 19-21. I don’t address that, because I have no idea how to even speculate how much of an increase that is.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I also don’t think the recent second Ks give much support for the idea that burning the ELC year early actually holds the second contract price down (see JVR). I think agents are good enough that they can minimize that 18 year old year and get the focus to be on the last year of the deal and, more importantly, the expected production in the years going forward.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I agree with all of this.
I was willing to accept Couturier being on the team if he was getting top 9 minutes, plus him being a part of the PK unit, but now, with him possibly being on the 4th line, then I would much rather see him back in Juniors. Why waste a year of his ECL to play on the 4th line? Makes no sense ot me.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Basically how I see it. It’s not about what Couturier has or hasn’t done, and I know that’s harsh, but I look at it from a business perspective.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
What qualifies as top-9 minutes? 19.5, 16.5, 14, 10?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see him being particularly valuable on a line with Talbot and Nodl, or at least demonstrably better than Homlstrom or Betts would be there, especially when you consider the 10 minutes a Talbot-Couturier-Nodl line might get at 5 on 5 would be reduced to 7 minutes, and the 3 extra minutes would be split up between your top 6.
I’m not saying it couldn’t work, I’m just saying he is more valuable on this ELC at 21 than at 18 playing with Talbot and Nodl, even if they got 20 minutes a game.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I wouldn’t base much on the stat for a few reasons. 1) it’s been 6 games, 2) you are only using game highlights to score, and you are limiting your view, 3) I’ve already found enough, what I believe to be, errors in your examples to call in to question the reliability of the data.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
ESTOI/60 Flyer Forward average: 9.8. Standard deviation: 2.1. Couturier: 8.82- average (9.856)= -1.036/ sdev (2.1955)= .47. He’s right around the average TOI, within a half standard deviation. He’s getting solid time, its not like were completely sheltering him. His 1.36 G/60 is second on the team to Voracek’s 2.26 (one of six players with even strength goals, and he has two). His 1.36 A1/60 is second behind Nodl’s 1.8 (only six guys with an A1 on the year) and his A1+G/60 is a team leading 2.72.
His OZone start is 31%. That is Betts like. And lowest on the team (Talbot is 36%, Harts and Nodl are 42%).
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
This is all an incredibly small sample size. There’s a very, very small chance Couturier continues to get 4:28 SHTOI/G, mostly because the Flyers won’t be short-handed as often. He also won’t get getting 31% OZ starts over 82 games.
But even if he does, why would you put him in those situations when you have Betts and Holmstrom and Talbot and Nodl who can do that for cheaper, without burning a year of ELC, and without worrying about their offense?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
And if history, logic, and physiology mean anything, then sometime around January he’s going to start to wear down and won’t be playing quite as well. Gotta think he’s riding a lot of adrenaline right now.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
He’s not JVR out of Hockey East’s 35 game schedules. He played 70 games a year for the past 3 years plus playoffs. Canadien rookies are much more NHL ready than NHl rookies.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn’t change the rookie wall. It’s not an “NCAA wall” it’s a “rookie wall.” SEL guys, CHL guys, it’s pretty ubiquitous.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I was under the assumption that the wall was for the NCAA guys who came out after only playing 35 games and now have to play 82. Its a lot different for Cooter who played 58+ for the last three years. Last year he missed the beginning fo the season with Mono, played 58, + 10 playoff games, +6 WJC games. He’s had a lot more hockey under his belt than someone like JVR
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
the NHL regular season is a much tougher grind then the Juniors, so even if they play as many games/minutes in juniors, they are not used to the physicality and pace of the NHL yet.
Not if he’s on the PP and playing with JVR and Simmonds. :-)
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Proving something does not exist
Is hard to do. Prove big foot doesn’t exist, for example
Obv the sample size is too small, but its the only thing to go off of.
There’s a very, very small chance Couturier continues to get 4:28 SHTOI/G, mostly because the Flyers won’t be short-handed as often.
Wouldn’t you expect his ESTOI/60 to go up because of that?
He also won’t get getting 31% OZ starts over 82 games.
Wont that only improve his offensive?
But even if he does, why would you put him in those situations when you have Betts and Holmstrom and Talbot and Nodl who can do that for cheaper, without burning a year of ELC, and without worrying about their offense?
I’m assuming that because we chose Cooter to play Betts role (4C/1PK) I’m assuming that the coaching staff just picked Cooter as the better player. Also, with the Phantoms naming Holmstrom their captain, he’s not going to be a Flyer this year—-unless we have a long term injury and Holmstrum is tearing up the AHL. Talbot and Nodl are on the line.
The big thing is the overall difference in mine and your philosophies with the ELC and the slide. I say the margin of benefit for him over a replacement for this year is greater than the margin of benefit of him earning a few million more for only one year out of a potential 4+ years on the Flyers. I’m not trying to dispute your logic, just a general disagreement of opinions and philosophies.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Obv the sample size is too small, but its the only thing to go off of.
Only if you ignore historical data.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
But this kind of thing has no precident. There is no data. No 18 year olds have had 30% zone starts? We’ve mentioned before ont his site that the only fair equivilant is Jordan Stall because no other 18’s were in the NHL not in a “scorer” role.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And if Cooter can be like Stall—-I’m fine with that
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If Cooter is like Staal I’m also fine with that. I’d actually love that.
So the links that Geoff has in the post, and the general on-going discussions on this site, are meaningless? We should all just draw conclusions based on 6 games?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
No, that was teh previous comparison. It’s not fair to say “no 18-year-old can do it because no one has done it.” Stall did it. And don’t look now but Cooter is doing it. Yeah 6 isn’t a sample, but add on all of the training camps (rookie + veteran), and the pre-season games, and you have a much bigger sample.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So Staal is the exception to the rule and you are expecting that Couturier will hold it up. Don’t look now but Staal had a career year in goal scoring and a ton of puck luck as a rookie. Don’t look now but Staal has never scored 50 points.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
So Staal is the exception to the rule
No I’m saying that it’s a different rule all together. In recent history 18 year olds have been used to score. Some have had sucsess and some haven’t, its just the way it goes. Also in recent history, one 18 year old has had the job of centering a bottom-2 line: Jordan Stall. He sucseeded. After 6 games has Cooter given you doubt that he cant sucseed given his role—- NOT ASKING IF HE SHOULD HAVE THE ROLE OR NOT - but just asking if he’s shown promise?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he is referring to how 18 YO’s do in the NHl historically, Geoff links it in his article that is linked here to which you are responding.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
So do you think he’ll be like the last 4 #1 overal picks in the NHL with his G/60 and A1/60, Kane, Stankos, Tavares, and Hall? Hall 0.8 G/60, 0.43 A1/60 for 1.23/60. Tavares 0.71 G/60, 0.60A1/60 for 1.31/60. Stamkos 0.86 G/60, 0.53 A1/60 for 1.39/60. And Kane 0.70 G/60, 1.08 A1/60 for 1.78/60. So are you really expecting him to out perform all those guys for an entire season? Seriously? He is going to come back down on those rates, same with zone starts etc. It’s far too early in the year to be using those stats as expectation, the sample size just isn’t meaningful enough yet, Nodl’s A1 rate should scream that at you if nothing else.
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but it should be tempered with a sense of realism.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
And making him a number 1 pick is pretty generous as well…
What are RNH’s rate states right now?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I was just thinking of top 5-10 guys who played at 18. Cooter was consensus #1 before he had mono last year and was considered a steal on draft day. AND if CBJ knows that Cooter falls to 8, the entire madness of the Richei/Carter trade day probably doesn’t happen. At least not Cooter and Voracek for Carter.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Cooter wasn’t really a consensus number 1. There were always other players in the discussion (RNH, Larsson, specifically) and talking 9 months before the draft is pretty meaningless anyway.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
But it was always the three of them (and Landeskog I guess) . No one else really got into that mix until Huberdeau had a great memorial Cup.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No, he wasn’t. Consensus means what it means. There were always people that would have taken Larsson or RNH, even before mono. The closest I remember any of them getting to “consensus” status was Larsson sometime around the 2010 draft, which is a meaningless time to be ranked.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Okay, you can nit pick all you want but the point is we got a steal at number 8. Big enough of a steal that if CBJ knew he would be there at 8, I highly doubt there would have been a trade in the first place. 6-4 NHL ready 2-way player who lead the Q in scoring two years in a row—-falling to 8OA beacuse of a combonation of an early season sickness and some late season hype for some not nearly as polished players.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Well you keep comparing Cooter to Staal. Carter is better than Staal. So how does that math work out for CBJ… I think they still make the deal. Obviously you have to factor Voracek, but he isn’t exactly a world-beater at this point.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Well you keep comparing Cooter to Staal.
Well you everyone keep[s] comparing Cooter to Staal.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And if he turns out to be Staal I don’t think the trade looks nearly as good from the PHI perspective.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
If he has to be better than Staal for the trade to be a plus, then it was a bad trade. How many #8ish picks turn out better than Staal?
Yes, Carter is better than Staal, but he’s also more expensive than Couturier. You can’t expect equal talent when trading a $5M contract for a $1M contract and a $2M contract.
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But it’s not just the absolute dollar value. Carter is $5 million, but if this foot injury doesn’t derail his career then he’s great value on the $5 million. Voracek and Cooter won’t be cheap forever so just looking at their value today is extremely short-sighted.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Sure, no doubt. But there’s no question that the team was trying to shed cap space in the short term, and I think they have to expect to get less talent in return as part of that deal.
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Couturier was topping the scouting lists until late February or so, when RNH went on a mad hot streak for a couple of weeks. Before then I’d only seen Couturier or Larsson on top of mock drafts.
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by red army line on Oct 21, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I had already seen RNH on the top of lists by the WJC. I had also seen Larsson on top of plenty of lists before the season even started. My quibble is with “consensus number 1.” Consensus is like when Stamkos got drafted number 1. Couturier was obviously a highly touted prospect, but I don’t recall a single point where every scout said “that’s THE guy.”
Obviously, this is all speculation.
This might be a semantics issue. Many people mistakenly use the word “consensus” to mean “majority”, which is how I read the above.
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We coulda had Vokoun and Stamkos!!! We coulda had them I tell ya!!!
It's in his wheelhouse!!
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So are you really expecting him to out perform all those guys for an entire season?
Absolutely not. But he is leading the team or in second place for each of the three major (time-relative) scoring stats (P,A1,P+A1/60) while being a top-2 PK forward (Lavy also called him in the pre-season “our best defensive player”). What more could he do to warrent a callup, in your opinion?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing. To me he can’t do anything because he will be significantly more valuable to this team at 21 than at 18 IMO.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Yeah, I already understand that you do, it’s why I keep repeating that we are looking at this from two different perspectives. If the coaches decide to use him in a top 9 role, than yeah I start to shift philosophies slightly, but he can’t do that, the coaching staff has to.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Also, it’s easy for players to be the statistical leader on the team in categories over 6 game stretches. I’m sure I could find times last year where Powe or Nodl were statistical monsters over 6 games, but that doesn’t mean much. It’s been 6 games, I’m sorry, I don’t by in to those rated stats after 6 games as far as being indicative of much. I’m looking at it from a business perspective, I’m fine with you disagreeing with me, and I get why you are, because he doesn’t really deserve to be sent down, but I’m just looking at it differently.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
So Jason Chimera won’t end the season as the Caps leading goal scorer? Get out.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m hoping he is ;)
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
What about after 9 games? Because if 9 is too small you’re really saying he should have never gotten a look in the first place because even if he does well its due to a small sample and not skill so it’s a moot point?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the 9 games of NHL life serve him well, and it doesn’t effect his ELC. They’d be stupid to not get him that experience if he can hang. This isn’t all or nothing, hence the 9 game window.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
There’s a huge difference in saying “he should never have gotten a 9 game season” and “9 games is enough to prove he belongs in the NHL”.
If the NHL is giving 18 year olds a 9 game sting in the NHL without counting against their contract, you take it and run. That has nothing to do with whether it is predictive of whether he is ready for the NHL or not.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Touche, left out the valuable experience gained part in my logic. So in your opinion—-and if you were homer—- this is just a trial run for experience and not a try-out for a roster spot?
Last question, does sitting the bench and practicing every day with the big club (if the $$$ can fit caugh MATT WALKER caugh) until the WJC hold any water with you? Keep him on the bench once his 9 games are up, let him learn and then send him to the WJC. Let him do that, and then go to the Q for the stretch and the playoffs? You still get to keep your eye on him and have him learn from the guys who he’ll be with next year—-AND you get to slide him. AND if Betts can’t go (or we just need Cooter) we can have him just in case?
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Yes.
2) Before the season, I advocated for keeping Couturier on the NHL roster for weeks, maybe even months, so long as he only plays against teams like Ottawa, Columbus, Florida, etc. Once he hit 9 games, send him back.
So yes, I think keeping him up with the Flyers is hugely important. I simply don’t want him burning a year of his ELC. If he only plays 25 hockey games this year, and only 9 NHL games, but spends four months on an NHL roster, I’d be okay with that.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree there. I think in-game ice time is crucial at this point. I don’t think he can learn as much just practicing as he could playing, even against weaker competition.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I’m okay with that. We can disagree there :)
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
And just for the record, my “stat” right now has him on the ice for 6 ES goals. 5 for, one against. His one against I don’t have him taking any credit for (it was goal 1 vs. Washington last night where after Harts grabbed the puck, Couturier just got on the ice for a change and there was nothing he could do about it). In his 5 goals I have him getting credit for 4 of the 5 goals (Great pass to Voracek, his own goal, his second goal, and the outlet pass—-in which he received a shitty pass in his skates from Carle only to make a great play to gain full control and get on the tape to Read—- leading to a goal). Take that through four games what its worth. My %’s might be subjective but those are actual events.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, and I have a huge problem with your %‘s and how you have been placing blame more so than credit. But like I said, it’s just my opinion, but it’s also why i won’t by in to the analysis yet until the subjective lines up more with mine (it doesn’t have to at all, it’s your thing, it just means I won’t value it.) And further, and the real point, it’s 6 games. I think it’s cool you are doing it and all, I just have had issues, to each their own.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
But back to the Cooter issue, i know its only six games, that is the problem. How are you supposed to rely on objective data when the samples are far too small? You cant, so you must rely on subjectivity and opinion. Judging by the Flyers cutting our old “best one-way-defensive-forward” to make room for Cooter AND by observing Lavy’s confidence with putting Cooter out there in late game/one goal lead situations—-he has really impressed this coaching staff.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not discussing about what will happen, I’m discussing what i think should be done. It’s not about his play, it has nothing to do with his play. if his role is a 4th liner on this team this year, than he will be far more valuable at 21 than 18, so from a business perspective, send him down and save the year of ELC.
i totally get where you are coming from, i just see it from a different POV.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Let’s also remember the valuable experience Couturier will gain from leading Canada at the World Junior Hockey Championships.
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I think it comes down to that a “4th” line of Nodl, Couturier, and Talbot is just as good as the “3rd” line of Hartnell, Schenn, Read. This whole argument is based of the assumption that the 4th line players HAVE to have short minuets per game. Shelley can’t play to much, Betts, despite his great PK efforts, wasn’t anything special at 5v5 defense, and Carcillo just was used improperly. That line COULD only play 5ish minuets of even strength hockey, simply because that was a bad 4th line. Now that we have much better talent down there, we could see those minuets accumulate. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Couturier play 8-9 Mins of 5v5 + top PK time on the 4th line. It all comes down to what Lavi decides to do.
I should add that...
I agree with your argument. If they only use him sparingly, tat I would raher him be sent down. Im just making the claim that the Flyers could use the 4th line more then they have in recent years, thus keeping his play time up.
Notice point, that Talbot, Nodl, and Couturier had sustained offensive pressure for a whole shift against Ovi, Backstrom, and whoever else is on that 1st line. You never saw the 4th line the past 2 years do that. They would get circled on until either a clear or a goal against.
One shift in the 6th game of the season, and you’re saying they can do it for 82 games.
Despite two of those three not showing the ability to beat third line competition in the last three years.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you conclude that Cooter cant beat 3LC if this is his first shot? He’s got a +7.5 corsi rel vs. 4th line comp but his 30% evens up for the 4LC.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t conclude he can’t. I said he hasn’t. There’s a difference.
And you keep using stats despite nobody putting weight on six game samples.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a bit unfair. Of course he hasn’t shown the ability to beat third line competition in the last three years, this is his first year.
Still think he should be sent to juniors, but just pointing it out.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Oct 21, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, but that’s the lawyer in me. :) It’s true that he hasn’t shown the ability, and it just works better to lump the two in.
In either respect, the response to this is to look at Eric’s post again and see that 18 year olds don’t beat top competition.
So not only does Max Talbot have to do something he hasn’t done in at least 3 years, but Sean Couturier has to also be one of the very, very few to do it.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 23, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole argument is based of the assumption that the 4th line players HAVE to have short minuets per game
I agree whole heartedly with that statement. We were spoiled last year with lines like: Richards-Carter-Versteeg, Giroux-JVR-Zherdev, Briere-Hartnell-Zherdeg. There are 9 20-goal scorers! Those guys need 15+ minutes per game. This year our only guys who need to really eat up minutes offensivly are Giroux and JVR. Other than that, Briere and Jagr needs PP minutes more than ES minutes—-but they do need 12ish of ES, Read, Cooter, Schenn are rookies, Nodl and Talbot are your defensive guys, Simmonds and Voracek and Hartnell need time, but not massive amounts and I think I covered everyone. We have 12 players that alll need to carry a bigger share of the load—-not 3 stud lines and a “shut down” line. Look at Boston—-they had their top line and three lines that all could grind and score. That is the model were going after. Just because they’re the fourth line it doesn’t mean that #8 overall Sean Couturier, former second round pick and defensive stud with offensive upside Andreas Nodl, and the re-incarnation of Lappy: Maxime Talbot; cannot be an effective line…
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a legitimate point in arguing over line numbers. It’s absolutely about ice time and not roles, but the two are so closely related, they’re difficult to separate out.
With Schenn on the team, Couturier only got 5 minutes of ES time last night. It’s only one game, which is why we can’t say he only gets 5 minutes. But with Schenn, and barring a trade, he’s the 4th line center. Which implies less ice time than 9 other forwards.
Disagree with the phrasing, but Couturier will not get enough ice time to warrant paying him as an 18 year old instead of a 21 year old so long as the team’s forward corps is the way it is.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s definitely not making the decision easy, he’s gone beyond everyone’s expectations and has earned a chance to stay. But sending him down is the best thing for the team (for all the reasons Geoff outlined) and probably him too. Schenn probably could have played in LA last year but they sent him back to Juniors and it didn’t appear to hurt his development.
I thought we were done with this logjam at center!
Flyer's Too Many Centers
It’s what caused Clarke to trade Patrick Sharpe. Just a memory that I have trouble dealing with! (Especially since we needed a center later that year, ironically.)
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I haven’t seen any games and therefore haven’t seen his play, but I agree from a business and roster perspective Couturier needs to be sent back to the Juniors for this season.
Also, random question (which I am pretty sure the answer is “NO” but I want to ask anyways), if he’s sent back to the Juniors he can’t come back at all, correct?
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
After his JR year is over we can have him again—-not 100% sure if it will cost him a year of his ELC. If he goes to Phantoms and doesn’t suit up for Flyers it shouldn’t cost him. If we use him in playoffs it will.
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember Sbisa playing in his rookie playoffs. But I also remembering him play some wing—-so there probably was an emergency recall of some sort
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I lean towards keeping Couturier down in the abstract.
In practice, I came into this season concerned about whether this team had the centers to handle tough defensive minutes. Briere certainly can’t, and Talbot hasn’t really done it in the past, so getting some help from someone other than Giroux seems important.
If Couturier can do it and Schenn can’t, then I think that has enough of an impact on this year’s team that I want Couturier playing 3C in the NHL. But if Schenn can do it or if the team won’t put Couturier at 3C, then I’d rather have the benefit of the slide than the minor benefit of a handful of minutes at 4C and PK.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I suppose there’s also that factor of “the window” and how Pronger and Timonen will age. Like with the Capitals, there’s certainly a big incentive to ice as good a team as possible right now and not worry about 6 years from now until, well, 6 years from now.
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Oct 21, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. If I think he helps the team just a little, I’m more interested in the future year. But given the way the off-season went, I came into the season concerned about our forwards’ defense, and Couturier being JStaal would be enough of a benefit to make me spend that future consideration.
But his ability to contribute is tied to his usage. If he’s on a fourth line then it’s tough to contribute enough to be worth the ELC sacrifice, and moreover, presumably he’s there because Schenn is doing well as the 3C and handling some defensive minutes of his own.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Wrong frame of reference
Geoff’s piece is terrific from a normal-hockey point of reference.
However, recall that this is Homer and that Homer follows 2 principles: (1) He is a collector of talent (2) The cap is a hurdle to be overcome.
Yesterday, I posted that Hartnell was unlikely to be traded since he has some talent, and the cap has already been overcome. Using that same reference and logic, there is no way Scooter is sent back. Geoff’s logic, while impeccable, is irrelevant, since those are not the rules Homer follows. Scooter has enough talent to be a positive contributor. The cap is overcome for 11-12. Therefore, he will stay.
Astaire and Rogers, G and Jagr
Hunter Pence did not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither did Carlos Beltran.
Yeah, this is another aspect I didn’t want to touch.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone feel like this move has already been made due to the invite to live with Briere? Does an alternate captain (an extremely respected alternate captain to say the least) extend an invitation to an 18-year-old to live in his house if he thinks that he’ll get sent down again?
No, it could just as easily be read as inviting an 18 year old to live with him rent free so he doesn’t have to waste money on housing during his visit.
But I do think that they keep him up, just have a gut feeling that has nothing to do with his living situation.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
and to give him more of a sense that he belongs to the “Flyer family” even if they send him back down. there’s propaganda/indoctrination value in staying with Briere.
by flyersfaninchicago on Oct 21, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And he is French canadian
ANd can speak with brieres 3 sons. I agree the evil institution has an interest in him feeling at home, but these are humans. Briere did it cuz he is a nice guy
If Couturier was only up for 9 games, would the team tell him to buy a house? Pay for a hotel? Or say “Hey, go live with Danny Briere while you’re here”.
Can’t read anything into it.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop repeating ym answers, especially when he only gives you the touche’s. it’s hurting my feelings!!!
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
ha, I’ll save you a touche or two throughout the course of the season :) IGG it’s been fun chatting with you two
by OrangeNblacK on Oct 21, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t waste a prime steak when you have other equally fulfilling things on your plate. You eat the things that are about to expire, or the less expensive things, before you cook up the prime steak. You wait to eat this amazing steak until you are hungry, and there’s room on your plate for the steak
you’re all welcome
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 21, 2011 2:44 PM EDT reply actions
Are you treating me to a nice steak dinner or something? If not, there is no way I’m thanking you for butchering that analogy.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I don’t always butcher analogies, but when I do, I make sure they’re yours
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 21, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha! “butchering” the analogy about a steak. I like it. Was that an intentional meat joke? If so, awesome… If not, still awesome anyway.
by FooFighter1124 on Oct 21, 2011 9:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ha! “butchering” the analogy about a steak. I like it. Was that an intentional meat joke? If so, awesome… If not, still awesome anyway.
by FooFighter1124 on Oct 21, 2011 9:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m a vegetarian.
The velociraptor was offended when you used the word "fossil" as a derogatory term to describe that older player. "A 'fossil'?! MY MOTHER IS A FOSSIL." You jerk.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Oct 22, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Crazy Talk
Couturier should only be moved back to Junior if he proves he’s not ready for the NHL. So far, in every test hes been given, he passes. Sure I get he’d be better value in 3 years on his ELC then he is today, but how do you even know that rule will sill be in place in 3 years? CBA’s up after this year.
He’s better then Betts. He’s better then Holmstrom, thats why he’s on the team with a higher cap hit then they are.
Demoting him for a hopeful advantage is just dumb, and unless he falters, I hope he stays. If we get an injury in the top 9, he can slide up to fill in, and we don’t have to make a trade as well. If he continues to develop/maintain his offense, hen he’ll force the Flyers to make decisions with their current top 9. You have to believe that Hartnell may be shopped, and Voracek is laying for a contract. If he’s not panning out (again, no sign of that today) he could be shopped, then Sean can fill his spot.
if you’re concerned about cap space, Walker will be demoted if needed, or I’d hope Shelly is demoted before Sean too.
Keep the best players on the team for today and tomorrow. Now, everyone go ahead and hate on my logic. in three.. two.. one…
I’m definitely still torn on this subject, but the Kimmo/Pronger argument is one of the best I’ve heard in favor of keeping him up. I’d like to view him as a fixed commodity that will be more valuable for the same price at ages 19-21, than 18-20. The statistics seem to prove that he will be a better player/value if he’s one year older, but there are too many other variables that impact how the team performs during those years. Kimmo has this year and next year left on his deal, but if Carle and Coburn ask for raises in the offseason, there’s not much money there in the cap to throw them, besides Jagr’s, which will probably disappear quickly split between Coburn, Carle and Voracek.
Question being: Do we sacrifice some of the value he potentially has coming in 2-4 years from now to ice the best team possible for this year? If swapping Couturier for Holmstrom/Zolnierczyk/(sigh)Shelley is a wash, then you would do it without hesitation and do what’s best for the Couturier’s development. Since it’s almost certainly not a wash, it becomes a question of best management of the asset, set against best management of the team on a year to year basis. If the team get significantly weaker next year because it loses Jagr and Carle as UFAs and Kimmo and Pronger become even less productive, then will Couturier being on the 1st year of his deal instead of the 2nd be worth it? Who knows what the rest of the team will look like in 2014-2015, there’s only 5 guys signed for that year, so far.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 21, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
but how do you even know that rule will sill be in place in 3 years?
He signed a deal under the current CBA that pays him at ELC rates for three years and doesn’t start until either next year or his tenth game this year.
The next CBA might not create the same possibililty for next year’s draft class, but I don’t see how they could (or why they would) go back and change his deal to a two-year deal, or order the Flyers to pay him $1.4M for services not rendered this year.
He’s better then Betts. He’s better then Holmstrom
Agreed. But if he only gets Betts/Holmstrom ice time, he’s not going to get a chance to contribute much more than them. If the new CBA still keeps him as a RFA when this contract expires, the difference will be $3M of cap hit when he is 21 (to use JvR’s numbers), and if it doesn’t, then the difference will be even larger. $3M is a lot.
To me, if he fills a key skills gap as the defensive third line center on a team that could be a contender this year, then that’s worth it. But the minutes and opportunities he’d get on the fourth line won’t be enough to be worth that sacrifice.
Demoting him for a hopeful advantage is just dumb
It’s no different from trading a pick for a player. You’re giving up a tangible future benefit for a tangible current benefit, and it’s not brilliant or dumb in the abstract; you have to weigh the cost and the benefit. Here we know roughly what the cost is: it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of $3M in cap space in his 21-year-old-season, and maybe a couple million more in whatever year he becomes a UFA under the new CBA. The benefit might outweigh that if he can make a big contribution, but not if he’ll be a bit part role player.
Keep the best players on the team for today and tomorrow. Now, everyone go ahead and hate on my logic.
You’re keeping the best players on the team for today and ignoring any question of whether it outweighs the cost for tomorrow. In fact, you’re calling it dumb to consider a hopeful future advantage. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say that you think the benefits outweigh the costs here, but your logic pretends there are no costs, which is decidedly wrong.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Oct 21, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I particularly liked this line:
Keep the best players on the team for today and tomorrow.just for what happened over this summer. It just made me laugh a little. But yeah, obviously agreed with everything here.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
your mom should be returned to juniors
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
Thanks for reading.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 21, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t believe you even responded to that.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Oct 21, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks replying. It wasn’t necessary, really, I appreciate it. I hope my banter brought a smile to someone’s day.
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 21, 2011 11:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s my standard troll reply.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 23, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Oct 21, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s been such a long time since I’ve seen a “your mama” reference. I was transported back to the 70’s for a moment there.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
your mama’s so fat her agent didn’t even bother getting an NMC
your mama’s so fat her team doesn’t need a backup goalie
your mama’s so fat she’s her own line change
your mama’s so fat they need two penalty boxes
your mama’s so fat her jersey has three numbers
your mama’s so fat she can never be offsides
by flyersfaninchicago on Oct 21, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your mama’s so fat she makes Martin Brodeur look slim.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Your mama’s so ugly she fuels Malkin’s nightmares.
The velociraptor was offended when you used the word "fossil" as a derogatory term to describe that older player. "A 'fossil'?! MY MOTHER IS A FOSSIL." You jerk.
"Follow me, as I ogle at some gigglesome prospect statistics." -bobbykelly, Silver Seven SB Nation Senators blog
by LeepinLizardz on Oct 22, 2011 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t been following Couturier much, but given that he seems more ideally suited to the third line role, I thought the Flyers might keep him in the top nine and put Schenn his wing (the Kings shifted him there before). I understand all the contract arguments (and they’re compelling ones), but is this what your management will do? Maybe they want to stack the forwards while you still have the Pronger window.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Only problem is that Hartnell, Read, Simmonds and Voracek don’t really belong on the 4th line, either, and one of them gets that spot if Couturier plays 3C, with Schenn on his wing.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 21, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
everyone is thinking inside the proverbial “fourth line” box… why can’t we roll 2 soft lines and 2 responsible lines all of which can bring the offense.
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 21, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
balancing minutes accordingly
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 21, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been wondering that myself, just not sure how the TOI breaks down. I think you would end up with a bit of flux in your lines because you wouldn’t want to give Nodl and Talbot 15 minutes a night. Maybe you leave Couturier as the 4C but then give him some shifts with Giroux and JVR while you give Jagr a breather? Then Giroux has to switch to the wing, it gets complicated fast and screws up chemistry.
by hebrew hammer on Oct 21, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
i suggested a Even Strength TOI / 60 picture of:
line 1 = 17min
line 2 = 17min
line 3 = 13min
line 4 = 13min
special teams would be the real fluctuation there in an actual game…
i.e. G would be closer to 18min if he played PP and PK time
Couturier might be 14-15 min with PK time and a double shift
etc.
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 21, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Question?
If he plays ten games and is on the ELC, can he go to the AHL?
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
no
-tim
Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. ~ Daniel H. Burnham
by edesjardins37 on Oct 21, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
In all honesty, I am okay with what they do either way. I think the big thing with those arguing he should stay up with the Flyers is the excitement over his potential. But, I believe you’d be overlooking the situation to get wrapped up in that. If he’s playing on the 4th line the job he is being asked to do could be adequately done by another member of the organization. Wasting a year of his ELC for him to play on the 4th line would be irresponsible, unless they think he will produce at any EXTREMELY higher rate than his replacement. This is unlikely, so the best move is to keep a Rinaldo, Shelley, etc. on the 4th line with Talbot and Nodl, and let Couturier progress in juniors, and hopefully come back next year ready to contribute on one of the top 3 lines.
"I make love to pressure." - Stephen Jackson
"My passion is more passionate than ever." - Greg Paulus
I’ve often wondered if Couturier got a JVR deal. I think JVR signed a rather inexpensive contract with the promise he’d play with the Flyers if he turned pro. Then JVR got more money than expected in his second deal. Couturier’s deal strikes me as the same deal – he’s probably underpaid for where he was drafted, got promised he’d stick with the team and never have to play in ADK and will get overpaid in his second contract.
Just a theory of mine.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
That’s a possibility. He signed a very bonus-empty cap-friendly contract.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Oct 21, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree that Couturier should be sent down for the benefit of his development and for what we get out of the ELC.
If he does stay up, I believe Schenn needs to play on wing. We’re going to have to deal with this eventually anyway. Next season Couturier and Schenn are going to both be on the NHL roster as will Giroux and Briere. Someone’s got to move eventually.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Oct 21, 2011 11:53 PM EDT reply actions
Also if Couturier’s sent down we can win the Calder two years in a row!!
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Oct 21, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the biggest issue facing this team, as it always has been. Do we have any details on Schenn’s ability on the wing? That’s the biggest issue facing Couturier’s necessity of being sent down, isn’t it? If Schenn can play the wing, Couturier can play in the top nine, and everything’s okay (except for fielding a team of so many new players, hahaha. But seriously I love Matt Read and Voracek.)
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
What I wonder is who will come out of this being labelled the ‘selfish’ one. It used to be Jeff Carter. But I’ve already read some absolutely inane comments about how it seems that Schenn is selfish and in it for the limelight so maybe he’ll be the one to get the bad rep.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Oct 22, 2011 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions
i confess. i’m the selfish one. all of these arguments about sending him down make sense and are a model of delayed gratification. i don’t care. i want to see all of them up here now because we traded away 18 and 17 and I want satisfaction. And we signed the star goalie who will only have 23 years left on his contract when Couturier is 21 and by then Pronger and Timonen will be older than Don Cherry. And because I want to see them play. Balance the TOI. Give the older guys a rest. Rotate a day off for the regulars. Figure it out, that’s what coaches do.
He’s not too young. Never mind that he just lost his baby front teeth.
by flyersfaninchicago on Oct 22, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t really add anything else or of interest to this debate, but i will say its a great problem to have don’t you think? So much young talent we can’t cram it all into one team…….oh and Jody Shelly.
#2 Flyers fan in England behind Orange and Black Forever (Damn him and his Americanness)
October 23rd Bucs vs Bears @ Wembley......I'm there!
Great article
I thought it was a great article, …the key phrase that stuck with me after reading it all was this:
“ASSET MANAGEMENT”
This is an area where I think the Flyers have been a little sloppy, but there’s no arguing that a 21 year old Couturier is a better deal for the team than an 18 year old Couturier.
The Flyers, with a roster containing young developing players like JVR, Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, and Read are obviously not in a position of “win or bust” this season. they’re building a longer term contender, and from that perspective, with players like Hartnell, Briere, and Jagr already holding down top nine slots, …and even younger players like Simmonds, JvR, Giroux, and Voracek already in top six or top nine slots, …the Flyers simply don’t have the icetime, or slot available to integrate three rookies into their top nine.
So between Schenn, Couturier, and Read one would have to be limited to a fourth line role.
I think the Flyers would be better served in the long run by giving Schenn the icetime this season and furthering his developement, letting Read continue to develop in that third or fourth line capacity, and letting Couturier play in Juniors this year, continue to work on his game, and come back better, and stronger next year when the Flyers will have a top nine slot open and waiting for him.
And I’ll go back to the Asset Management topic again and point out that doing it this way gives the players a talented young player a year further ahead in his developement for the same price, provides cap relief both now and three years from now, and allows the Flyers to replace Couturier’s contributions this season with a player who’s less expensive, and actually better at those particular skills (While Couturier has been impressive on the pk, those skills are NOT what makes him a top prospect, it’s the still underdeveloped offensive abilities, and two way game that will eventually reward the Flyers in the long run)
cheater
"All hail the Flyers" Jim Jackson.
by darkside3744 on Apr 13, 2012 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
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