Tuesday Morning Fly By: If Only Buffalo Had Jody Shelley
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 6:00 AM EST
in Morning Fly By
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- Cap again (Recaps): [BSH] [CSNPhilly] [delcotimes] [Daily News] [Inquirer] [Philly Sports Daily] [Bill Meltzer] [Flyers Faithful] [The Checking Line]
- Mark Howe was officially inducted into the Hall of Fame yesterday: [CSNPhilly] [Flyers Faithful] [Daily News] [Inquirer]
- Maxime Talbot has been better than expected this year. Maybe his 31.6 shooting percentage is tangentially related, somehow: [NHL Hot Stove]
- Zac Rinaldo gets called for a lot of penalties. Not surprisingly, some of these are due to his (well deserved) reputation. Not sure how you remove the bad reputation by simply perfecting your game, but why not try? [Orange and Black Pack]
- Peter Laviolette isn't happy with the number of penalties the Flyers are taking: [delcotimes]
- Future Flyers Weekly Report starring Marcel Noebels: [Flyers Faithful]
- A good look back at hockey's dark history with sex abuse in light of the Penn State scandal: [Daily News]
- The Ducks claimed Niklas Hagman on re-entry waivers. This is a great move: [Puck Daddy]
- Milan Lucic avoided a suspension: [SBNation.com] [Puck Daddy] [NHL.com]
- Great response by Cam Charron, explaining how the NHL is inciting violence and injury by refusing to act (my words, in case that's unclear): [Cam Charron]
- And wouldn't ya know, Erik Cole ran into Jhonas Enroth - who was standing in the crease - last night: [Puck Daddy]
- How many points will the Wild finish the season with? [Arctic Ice Hockey]
- Great look at score effects as well as an introduction to GVT later down the post: [Backhand Shelf]
- What happens when you win two faceoffs on the PK, and is Todd McLellan right? [Arctic Ice Hockey]
- The tragic story of a teenager who died after being hit in the back of the net with a puck: [Vancouver Sun]
- This was actually the most awesomest thing that happened with a goalie and an opposing forward in Boston recently. Cracks [Ben] up every time. [YouTube]
- Speaking of Lys Assia, she's entered her 87-year-old self in the Swiss selection process for Eurovision 2012, Die grosse Entscheidungs Show. I hope that she doesn't think that just because she's an octogenarian she can get away with having absolutely no choreography. Switzerland makes their decision December 10. This is her song. [YouTube]
- This overheard at the Hockey Hall of Fame Induction: [Down Goes Brown]
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Congrats to Mark Howe, like Gordie said, What took so long!
I know the headline is dripping with sarcasm and the belief that the presence of a fighter doesn’t deter stupidity against your better players, but to a man buffalo feels shame that no one did anything. Ubi can better testify to the chemistry of that team but perception is reality. If that group had a heavyweight who went out and punched someone out and sparked some self confidence for other guys to punch someone out the team may feel less pussified. No it wouldn’t bring miller back no it won’t win the game but it might have helped morale and givin the group a feeling of that someone has your back when the shit hits the fan.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Why make yourself feel less pussified when you can have someone else do it for you?!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 8:48 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Say that all you want, but Roy, Erbe, and the rest of the undersized Sabres are crazy to take on most of the Bruins who are a big, nasty physical team.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
A list of Sabres who are 6 feet, 200 lbs:
Luke Adam
Brad Boyes
Matt Ellis
Gaustad (6’5", 212)
Kaleta
McCormick (6’3", 221)
Stafford
Vanek
Ehroff
Gragnani
Leopold
Myers (6’8", 227)
Regehr (6’3", 225)
Sekera
Weber
They may be a small team, but they have a lot of guys who can stand up for themselves. Especially when you consider the players on the ice when it happened (Myers, Sekera, Vanek, Gaustad, Pominville) were the two biggest players on their roster (Gaustad and Myers) and their Captain (Pominville) and Assistant Captain (Vanek).
Jody Shelley wouldn’t have protected Miller, nor can the Sabres hide behind how small they are. They wilted, period, with their leaders and biggest players on the ice. Stop making excuses.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe Lucic knew the Sabres wouldn’t answer for the hit, which just made him more committed to doing what he did? Maybe he wouldn’t have done that against a tougher team that would’ve surely retaliated?
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Maybe. But how does Lucic know what the Sabres will do? And how can any NHL player assume that he can run a goalie without consequences – at least before someone else does, i.e. Cole last night?
It’s fun to try and fit what happened into a narrative, but that’s all that’s happening here. Rather than look at what happened and point out that Tyler freakin’ Myers was on the ice, as well as the Sabres’ Captain, people think Jody Shelley would somehow have made that situation better.
It’s not that the Sabres are too small (they had two guys 6’5" or taller on the ice) or that Lucic knew the Sabres wouldn’t retaliate (when you have to guys with letters sewn on their chests on the ice, how can he assume he’s going against gutless people?).
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
The whole Shelley narrative falls apart if Shelley’s not in the lineup. The Flyers aren’t even playing Shelley right now, so his “presence” on the team is negligible. For a goon to be useful, he has to play and he has to find somebody willing to fight him.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
For a goon to be useful, he has to play and he has to find somebody willing to fight him.
Completely agreed, especially the last part.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Of those listed, are any of them fighters? (Honest question. I don’t know anything about Buffalo)
If so: Why didn’t they fight?
If not: Their size doesn’t make a difference. You either know how to fight or you don’t.
Do you really need to know how to fight after somebody runs your goalie? In either event, the argument wasn’t that there were no fighters on the ice – why would Ruff put a fighter out against Lucic in the first period anyway? – it was that Buffalo was too small.
But for the sake of argument, Paul Gaustad has had 5, 6, 4, and 5 fights in the NHL each of the last four years. He knows how to fight.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
There was no argument. I just asked a question. Like I said, I don’t know anything about Buffalo. I’ve been working to much to have time to follow any team other than the Flyers.
And yes, you do need to know how to fight after somebody runs your goalie. If you don’t know how to fight, you will just get the shit kicked out of you & possibly injured.
I’m pretty sure a lot of people would want one of Matt Read, Jake Voracek, Eric Wellwood, Matt Carle, and Erik Gustafsson to fight Lucic if he did that to Bryzgalov, regardless of whether they can fight or not.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
I’d probably go with Simmonds
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
The whole point is that the Sabres do have someone who is their fighter – Kaleta. They also have a big guy who fights – Gaustad – who was on the ice when it happened. Not to mention their Captain being on the ice.
Saying the Sabres need a fighter or someone big, is ignoring both the reality of what happened and their lineup. Did Gaustad and Kaleta – among others – let their team down? Absolutely. But it’s not proof that they need a goon or to beef up, as some want it to be.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. Gerbe could’ve gone out there to prove a point. It’s not necessarily going out there to avenge a transgression by winning, but simply by the act of challenging someone and fighting them
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree it is team toughness mentality the narrative should be toughness and not size. But I still think the instigator penalty holds people back in these situations. If the tough guy (Kaleta) is not on the ice when this happens how do you get back at Lucic later in the game without costing your team the game with a potential 9 minute Dan Carcillo Matt Bradley penalty.
Talbot 5 Nodl 0 11/7/2011
Because retaliating can’t be done without a 9 minute power play? Come on Chris, an instigator penalty is only two. A goalie interference is only two. The same as Lucic’s penalty.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
True but they could always not call fighting on the other player and give you 5 min major and 2 for instigating so a 7 min PP. And the biggest factor is and the end of the game is when this type of enforcing has historically taken place the Flyers Ottawa rule (unless you are Malkin) automatic suspension, fine and even coach suspension and fin for an instigator in the last 5 minutes is a huge deterrent. There is where you put Shelly out against Lucic on the face-off and have him just jump him.
Talbot 5 Nodl 0 11/7/2011
Minor correction
9 minutes, every Sabre on the ice was wearing a visor so its a double minor for instigating.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Set free once again!
One thing I don’t understand about the instigator penalty argument is that we often see players take two minutes for far less retributive/deterrent value. Just last night Voracek wiped out a minor on Skinner by harassing him after the whistle. There was no value to that – he didn’t bloody him or knock him out. The only message he might have sent was – “Hey #93 is easily annoyed. Let’s use that later.”
Given countless situations like this, it doesn’t make sense that a two-minute minor would stop players from going after a player who definitely “deserved” it using hockey’s code of conduct, especially in a case where you’re only wiping out a power play, not putting your team shorthanded.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 15, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
If they want to call up a goon they can just call up Zach Kassian, he’s ended the careers of more players than the entire Bruins roster combined.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Set free once again!
good name for it too. Visigoth porn star name.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 15, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, but that has nothing to do with what I asked. I make my own opinions. I don’t care what a lot of people would want.
Paul Gaustad has had 5, 6, 4, and 5 fights in the NHL each of the last four years. He knows how to fight.
This was all I needed. Thanks.
Save the argument for people who are actually arguing with you.
Sorry, I’m just so used to you trolling me that I expect you to keep doing it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Just because I don’t agree with a lot of what you say doesn’t mean I’m trolling you. (or anyone else for that matter) It just means our opinions differ.
Our opinions on Hartnell are usually the same, so we’re not always on opposite sides of the fence. If I were trolling you I’d never agree with you.
Lighten up, Frances.
That Pol Pot guy did a lot of things that were wrong, and the nazis weren’t very nice people either. I just usually wait until somebody says otherwise before bringing it up. Because they’re in the past, ya know?
For the most part, they are stat nerds who refuse to acknowledge intangibles. They’re like the hipsters of the the sports fan world. (which is sad on many levels) Pretentious and generally unlikable. I’m fairly certain that I wouldn’t be able to sit in a room with Geoff for more than 5 minutes before I started daydreaming about watching him explode in slow motion to the soundtrack of O Fortuna.
Because crunching numbers in mom’s basement so you can shake your finger in other people’s face (even though those people don’t know you exist) is the only way some people can feel better about their sad, meaningless life.
Yes, I’m intentionally being a prick.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
But is it still trolling if it makes me laugh?
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
Certainly. Those are the best trolls.
Here’s an example of a troll who made me laugh, who I miss dearly. Same with this guy.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, this led me to:
http://philly.sbnation.com/2010/8/9/1610408/the-downside-of-the-bullies,
Simply put, when you trade away as many draft picks as the Flyers do, you can’t afford to waste them on players who can’t score. Finally, they seem to understand that.
Not quite, Mr. Detweiler. Further evidence lies in Mathers over Hyka.
/partlytrolled
You’re just making me sad then.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Trail of Tears sad?
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
Much worse:
Admitting I was wrong sad.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 2:07 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I didn’t realize you were so sensitive. They’re called jokes, Geoff. Daydreaming about watching somebody explode in slow motion to the soundtrack of O Fortuna? If I were deranged enough to be serious there, I’d be in a padded cell locked away from the world with no internet access. Seriously, lighten up before you end up dead of a heart attack at an early age.
Honestly, I think you just enjoy arguing with people. Why else would you have gone out of your way to dig up things I’ve said in the past – despite the fact that earlier I said I’m not arguing with you – unless you just wanted to argue and prove you were right?
Allodoxaphilia
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 15, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
also, depending on proficiency you can dig up past posts and the like with very little effort. I just assume that was probably 5 minutes work for him.
I’ve put way more effort than 5 minutes on much more trivial things. Just last night I found out a book called The Hunger Games exists and spent at least an hour finding reasons to tear it apart.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
Just last night I found out a book called The Hunger Games exists and spent at least an hour finding reasons to tear it apart.
Wow … that’s uhhh … do you daydream about watching somebody explode in slow motion to the soundtrack of O Fortuna?
sounds like a combination of elements from Stephen King/Richard Bachmann’s Running Man and The Long Walk
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 15, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if anyone thinks I troll them…
aside from CCB, who I just give a hard time so he will try harder…. I mean 13th place? He can’t be trying.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
JLS89 isn’t trolling…
She’s on this page, so she counts.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
This whole conversation tells me you have no idea what trolling means.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 5:31 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
What’s with trolling today? I got called a troll in the Rinaldo/Sestito thread. Everyone seems on troll patrol today.
by lava96 on Nov 15, 2011 10:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know. Sunday night I thought Travis got trolled by Baicker – it was sarcasm? humor? – only to have Carchidi legitimately troll him.
It’s all the rage these days.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
I’m honestly not sure that Carchidi is smart enough to know that what he is doing is trolling.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
by EREX21 on Nov 16, 2011 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why punch the third-biggest goon on the bruins and take stupid penalties when you can have Kaleta “Accidentally” lose an edge on the rush and crash skates-up into Tim Thomas on three consecutive shifts (he did)
Basically every fighter on the Sabres has fought Lucic and lost pretty handily (Gaustad broke his hand in addition to losing)
They weren’t 4-1-1 against the bruins not because they beat them up, they let the Bruins take dumb penalties and Drew Stafford scored like seven power play goals against them.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Set free once again!
Well the bruins can win and have won games by fighting, so i guess they can.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Set free once again!
Maybe there is something to this fighting plan
Buffalo 22
Toronto 21
Montreal 17
Ottawa 17
Boston 16
Winnipeg 15
Well, they DO have one more point than the Jets, a clear playoff contender, so fighting is obviously the answer.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Set free once again!
I mentioned this in the game thread on Sunday, and CCB and I had the same thought and it’s kind of sad. But Rinaldo truly does get called for penalties simply because of his reputation and because of it, has no way to actually change the perception of him that he’s a cheap goon. With that, the only thing left to do is not play him. He does more damage being on the ice simply because of the penalties and phantom penalties he takes.
Secondly, Happy Birthday Todd.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
And in regards to Rinaldo it is a shame because I think the kid is really trying to work and help the team.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I agree. He has lessened his batshitedness™(yes I just made up a word) but something has to give and I doubt it will be the refs.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
simply put, he has to market himself in a different way.
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Hire a PR person?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
If i were him I’d actually have a conversation with the refs before the game
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
Now that might not be a great idea. The team needs to lobby for him behind closed doors, call the league, send in a tape when bad calls are made. I think this is how it gets done in the new NHL.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
there is one big thing working against him: his age. He’s looked at as a young kid who doesn’t understand the rules and how to play the game. If you make age not an issue he’s not called for penalties that don’t seem to be penalties
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
There are two big things working against him. His history of being bat shit crazy and wearing Orange & Black. His age isn’t a factor with bias. The team just needs to do a little league office lobbying. This is how after all his bullshit Cooke is still playing and contributing. Shero and Mario probably call the league every friggin week
to whine about their injustices.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Zac Rinaldo, bat shit crazy, damn glad to meet you.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
His Name is Mudd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-WjUjzV_Q
@boknows71
El Guano Loco!
I posted the art on facebook and twitter last night. Love my design but still don’t like the player at all.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 15, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Notice the Kevin Bacon, bottom right hand corner
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
That guy is everywhere!
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Go find him in the original Friday the 13th
it’s a fun exercise
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Not that it happened before the game, but the other night he got called (charging I believe) and simply asked why he got the call, nodded and went to the box. So it seems he’s even trying to do some of that as well.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
Embrace the Jagr.*
by JerseyDriver on Nov 15, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
His PTAKE/60 is 4.7 and his PDRAW/60 is 6.3. Yes he leads the team in takes, but he also leads it in draws, and is 4th on the team in differential (behind Harry Z, Couturier, and Read).
As long as he continues to draw penalties at a rate higher than he takes, there is no reason to stop playing him IMO.
Agreed.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
His Name is Mudd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-WjUjzV_Q
@boknows71
Is a penalty drawn in the first period the equivalent of a penalty taken in the last 10 minutes of the 3rd, up a goal?
That stat ignores circumstance
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Are you raising that because you think his penalties taken have been particularly costly, because you think his penalties drawn have been particularly helpful, or just as a concern in general?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
it’s actually not a criticism of him but where I see the particular stat as faulted; there’s no weight to it
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
does a five minute major = 2.5 minor penalties?
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
If you are measuring by time, yes. Not sure what you’re getting at, nor do I care because your heels are dug in and I’m still pissing from my car getting raped this weekend.
That sounds like a serious medical problem, man. You should probably go get that checked. :)
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 15, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
simply trying to say Don that 5 minutes where the other team can score as many times as they win is not equal to 2.5 minor penalties drawn
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
The PTaken only counts non-coincidental minors.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
okie dokie. thank you
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Rinaldo has 4 majors this year, 4 fights.
You want to bitch about guys likely to take costly penalties in key spots because they actually get ice time in those situations. Look at Hartnell who has 11 minors already.
this isn’t bitching asshole. this is tring to make a statistic more precise
but nevermind, i’ll leave my questions for someone else
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, when you bring up meaningless questions that barely hint at your actual point, I can’t help but dumb down what you are saying. I’ve addressed how I think would be a more appropriate way to add value to the stat below in response to you.
Also, fuck off with that asshole shit; coming from you that’s a god damn joke.
touche
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Question. Is goal scoring just too random in a game and/or does the nature of play prohibit finding sufficient game states such that establishing high and low leverage stituations relative to Win Expectancy is not possible? Or are things purely a function of how the game is scored as you mentioned – a goal is a goal is a goal…
Not sure if I’m wording this properly. My concept of “leverage” is from baseball metrics, how well this jives with the actual statistical definition of “leverage”, I dunno.
I think it’s possible you just need enough of a sample. Maybe PP success increases as time goes on in a game. My point is more so that I expect over a large enough sample that players penalties taken will be, for the most part, equally spread across all periods. I could be wrong, and I’m sure in some cases, like 4th liners, who don’t see a lot of minutes at the end of close games, but see a lot of minutes at the end of games with wider margins may take more time to even out. That’s just my guess.
Though if you are talking about goal scoring in general, my initial reaction is that goal scoring may be more rare late in games when one team is not trying to score and falls back in to more of a trapping style of play. So that could also make a PP in the 3rd more valuable. However, just doing one quick look in to last year’s numbers, there were 1,995 goals scored in the 1st, 2,302 in the 2nd, and 2,276 in the 3rd. This is in all situations, and I don’t have PP’s per period. But that is kind of opposite of my initial reaction. However, trapping team like the Bolts fall right in line with my gut (82, 87, 64) as far as getting a lead and sitting back. This really isn’t enough analysis, but from looking at last year’s data, 1st period goals were the most “rare” representing 30% of goals, making a 1st period PP more valuable. Again, I don’t think this quick dive is in anyway telling, just interesting that 1st period goals may be slightly more valuable (less common) than 3rd period goals because it goes against the whole crunch time, clutch idea. But really the break out from last year is 30%, 35%, and 35%, which is close enough for me to say a still think a goal is a goal is a goal.
But over a large enough sample it will even out. Also Rinaldo is given far less opportunity to commit a penalty in the last 10 minutes up 1 goal because he doesn’t see much ice in that time and situation.
Your example ignores the reality of the situation. And it also ignores that a PP goal in the 1st is the same as a PP goal in the 3rd, both count as 1.
It doesn’t necessarily even out. Because like you say, Rinaldo is a lot more likely to be on the ice — and looking to send a message — in the third period of a three-goal game than in the third period of a one-goal game.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Rinaldo’s penalties tend to come when the game is not in question and Briere’s tend to come when it is. But if that’s only because Rinaldo plays in blowouts and Briere plays in close games, then I’m not sure I’d use it to support Rinaldo, either.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Over a large enough sample I’d still expect his calls to even out by period roughly, doesn’t mean a season will be enough.
But Rinaldo does see minutes early in games, and if he draws penalties then, then I would use it to support it. At any rate, I’m comfortable enough with him in the line up playing his 6 minutes a game as long as he continues to draw more than he takes, or even if they are equal. I’m assuming he won’t be used in close games at the end because even if he was a model citizen, I don’t trust his skills enough in those situations unless going against the other teams worst line.
Agreed. I still think they can do better, and I have more faith that his penalty-taking ability will persist than that his penalty-drawing ability will, but if he draws more penalties than he takes and is used selectively, it’s not a big issue.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Yeah. I should also add a caveat.
I’m probably trying pretty hard to give Rinaldo credit for seemingly “getting it” now and realizing what he needs to do to have a job in the NHL ever since witnessing how much Sestito doesn’t get it at all. I’ll take crazy over too dumb/stubborn (I’ll go with stubborn since I kind of trashed him on BSH radio) to realize he’s hurting his career and team.
Not that I disagree, but this team may better off spending all their time at ES than more time on the special teams with a slight PP advantage.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Wouldn’t a 5 min major wash out though? Unless you also take an instigator then the differential should be 0 due to fighting.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
unless it’s like boarding, etc
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
I think a penalty stat that would be more interesting would be if when Rinaldo was in the box did the opposition score. And when he drew a penalty did the Flyers Score. And I have to agree a little with CCB. This generalization of average doesn’t take into consideration circumstance. And if you don’t believe that a penalty kill at the end of a game isn’t a lot worse then a penalty kill in the 1st period you kidding me. But then again your the guy that finds every shift of every game on the same level of intensity and importance. So maybe you do believe there is no difference??? :-)
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I think a penalty stat that would be more interesting would be if when Rinaldo was in the box did the opposition score.
That’s kind of a silly thing to measure in theory. If anything, it should help him in comparison tot he rate that the opposition score when one of the Flyers PKer’s like Giroux or Talbot take a penalty.
And if you don’t believe that a penalty kill at the end of a game isn’t a lot worse then a penalty kill in the 1st period you kidding me
Obviously you are less fresh at this point, but a PP goal in the 3rd counts the same on the scoreboard as a PP goal in the first. And more over, those 1 goal situations late in the 34rd that CCB is talking about don’t exist, at least not more than rarely, because Rinaldo doesn’t get ice time then.
That’s kind of a silly thing to measure in theory.
More than in theory, it’s a terrible idea. It takes the very worst parts of plus-minus (results dependent on luck and teammate performance) and removes any individual control. For a guy like Rinaldo who gets no special teams play, you’re now judging him entirely by his teammates’ performance.
If a guy takes 800 penalties and his team kills them all, his teammates are heroes, but he still sucks.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Oh I agree, I was just trying to be polite. And I left out a lot of the details because I assumed M wouldn’t care about them.
Must…not….add..Rinaldo…comment…
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
by Cillo stache on Nov 15, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
JVR — What’s going on? His turnover created the first Canes’ goal and he nearly took out Bob. Interesting to see what develops when Schenn returns.
Voracek – Looking better and better as the season progresses. Not quite there yet, but making progress.
Read – Does this guy have a nose for the net or what? Plus, he kills penalties – nice.
Harry Z – Has he replaced Nodl now?
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
The Canes’ cast last night had him listed as a healthy scratch. Regardless, I’m not sure he gets his spot back in the lineup anytime soon.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
I don’t think Nodl & Harry Z are the same type of player. If I were a coach, I’d want Nodl on my 4th line as a shut down guy. He’s damn good at it. Harry Z is listed at 160lbs. Over an 82 games season, plus the playoffs, he’s going to take a hell of a beating in a checking role. I’d rather see him using his speed on a line that focuses more on scoring.
I would rather see Nodl out there, too, but it’s obvious that the coach is in no rush to get him back in the lineup.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
I’ve had very little sleep over the last few … months, so it’s entirely possible that I’m missing something here. I thought Nodl was injured?
He’s been a healthy scratch on occasion, even to the point of sitting in the press box on nights when Shelley would be out on the ice. That’s why I think the staff’s not sold on Nodl.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Observations from "the bleacher seats"
Congrats to Mark Howe!
Yes, there are no bleacher seats in hockey, but I was in the cheap seats!
1. It was awesome to see Orange and Black spread out throughout the crowd.
2. A few guys in the section next to me started a “LET’S GO FLY-ERS” chant.
3. I saw lots of old school sweaters/shirts… Clarke, Forsberg, Gagne, Lindros, Hextall, Richards and a Czech Jagr shirt.
4. Both teams looked tired in the 2nd… lots of penalties and stoppages. The refs started to bother me by the end of the game cause I felt like they weren’t letting them play.
5. It was weird to see Boosh and Bob on the ice at the same time. I miss Boosh.
6. I love hockey and now want to go to more games!!
7. I wanted to take pictures but I couldn’t bring my bag in. Do you need to walk through a metal detector at the WFC?!
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
We’ve never had a problem with bringing our camera into Wells Fargo, so it must be RBC-specific.
I lurk on Twitter as @LusipherPE
Well I tried to bring in a small backpack cause I don’t like carrying my camera bag around cause I feel like a tourist, but I was denied cause I “didn’t have a baby attached to it.” So yeah, I decided not to risk it and just left it in the car.
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
This was your first live game? That’s awesome!
Hockey live is better than any other sport live. It’s just a level of excitement that is unmatched. Truly an awesome thing.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 15, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Hockey on television, is by far better than any other sport on television
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Let's simplify
Hockey is by far better than any other sport.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
re: WFC, yes metal detector wand, but no problem with bags (that will be superficially searched) or cameras, unless you’re bringing in professional grade equipment. we’ve even been getting in modest amounts of outside food, a la Phils games.
Yeah, I was shocked that I couldn’t bring my small backpack in… cause I’ve brought it into Fenway a few times and they just search it. I told the lady what was in it, just my camera and a Phillies shirt that I take pictures with and she still didn’t let m through. It was like airport security without the conveyor belt. I just wanted to see what it’s like at the WFC cause my only frame of reference with this backpack is Fenway.
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
From the CSN Philly article in the side bar… I would post the link, but my internet is hating life, but I totally see this happening…
When asked how he was feeling, Talbot smiled as much as his swollen lip would permit and asked the only female reporter present – that would be yours truly – whether she liked it. That was all that mattered.
There’s also an awesome quote about Jagr saying that Chiardi’s mustache looks like porn stache.
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
JVR needs to do better. Much better.
He has been guilty of taking shifts off over the last few games and seemed to take the entire night off against the canes. He is simply not keeping his feet moving, resulting in always being beaten in puck battles. He turned the puck over, leading directly to scoring chances, multiple times last night. If he was putting in the effort and just not getting results, I could accept it. But watching him lazily glide around the ice and failing to put enough effort in is very disappointing.
JVR is the new Carter.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
He isn’t physical enough for his size!!!! He doesn’t give 100%, if he did he’d be (insert all time PF name here)!!!!
Bob is aware of JVR’s size after last night
RIP Joey F. You were always up for a game of NHL 2011, no matter how many times I embarrassed you with the one timer. Travel safely. Cheers to a tremendous adversary who was always up for a game of hockey
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Nov 15, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I have a sneaking suspicion he’s just fine. At ES, he’s getting average TOI, the hardest competition of any forward, easy zone starts, awful goaltending, and is putting up basically putting up the same goal rate as Giroux and an average assist rate.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
His usage and results are rather weird. Tough competition, easy starts. Lots of points, horrible Corsi.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 15, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I’m currently watching the replay of last night’s game. I have no idea if JvR is “not putting out effort”. In that context, Geoff could be right about him becoming the “new Carter” (let’s hope his shots don’t go wide right).
BUT clearly, he isn’t executing as well as he can. We all have our “off” periods. This is his. Do I want Lavi to “scratch him”. No, no , no! Do I want Lavi to take him off the PP for awhile? Yes, probably. Do I want him off the point? Yes, yes, yes! In fact, if he is on the PP point next game, that’s on Lavi.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
DGB is really hung up on the Flyers-refuse-to-play-the-trap thing.
"Simba needs to sharpen his claws" - Ilya Bryzgalov, on Scott Hartnell
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
DGB is hung up on anything with comedic value. And that had a crapload of comedic value.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Yeah, I know…I just thought the “spoiled toddlers” bit was a bit harsh.
"Simba needs to sharpen his claws" - Ilya Bryzgalov, on Scott Hartnell
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on Nov 15, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Can definitely laugh at them, but I’m not feeling that great today (laying down in my room now instead of sitting at my Chem lecture), which puts me in a bad mood and ruins my sense of humor.
"Simba needs to sharpen his claws" - Ilya Bryzgalov, on Scott Hartnell
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on Nov 15, 2011 3:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
.
|————-—PAPGALOV—————-|
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
.
.
|——-—feel my hand———|—————————-|——-feel my arm——-|––————–———|————feel my fist———-|
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
.
.
|-–——–———|-–––fists of [brotherly] love–––-|——————-|
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
.
.
|——————-feel it——————-|
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
.
.
|————––feel it————-—|
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
.Taken from Big Black’s “Fists of Love”. Song provided in “Papgalov” link.
.Linked songs [SFW] in order of appearance:
.Big Black, “Fists of Love”. From the LP – Atomizer. Homestead Records, 1986.
.Rapeman, “Just Got Paid Today” (ZZ Top cover). From the LP – Two Nuns and A Pack Mule. Touch & Go Records, 1988.
.Shellac, “The Guy Who Invented Fire”. From the EP – The Rude Gesture: A Pictorial History. Touch & Go Records, 1993.
.Shellac, “Il Porno Star”. From the LP – Action Park. Touch & Go Records, 1994.
.With four years of this overpaid douchebag, snark is the only way I’ll survive .
and he can draw humor from this in all directions – Flyers, Lightning, and the league
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 15, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Thoughts on your girl Lys Assia?
SB Nation Tennis -- Fuzzy yellow balls.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Nov 15, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I love DGB and I can easily laugh at my team but that was really not that funny. Others were but that kinda missed that mark.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
His Name is Mudd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-WjUjzV_Q
@boknows71
Which is a fine criticism, but if your main complaint was that it’s a “bit harsh” is kind of acting like a spoiled toddler; don’t ya think?
Who said it was a “bit harsh”?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
His Name is Mudd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo-WjUjzV_Q
@boknows71
I agree. I know DGB is purely for comedy, but I think he could have put a better joke about the trap fiasco in there.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Photo Shoot today
Not sure if you guys can see it:
https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10150395555986811&set=a.106124246810.102883.87169796810&type=1&theater
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Scooter in the photo shoot. Is he going to get a big push from the PR dept?
Been thinking about this this for a bit…who’s the young gun you think is least safe? Obviously they’ll have to manage all these young talented kids within the cap which means, to me, that there’s got to be one odd man out, a guy they’re going to let go for far too little. Because he’s my favorite I get the dreaded feeling it’s going to be Matt Read. Thoughts?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 15, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Voracheck.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
I don’t know I would include him in who I meant. I’m talking out of the promising rookies. Schenn, Scooter, Read, Harry Z etc. I think Voarcheck is an experiment type a la Zherdev.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 15, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Voracheck.
This is either
(a) A check made by a former Columbus Blue Jacket (example usage: “Wow, did you see Clay Wilson voracheck on that play!”)
(b) A new type of account by Bank of America or Citibank (example usage: “Yeah, I really got shafted with boatloads of fees when I opened that Voracheck account.” )
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Just applied for an opening freelancing for the creative group that handles the Flyers and Phils. Cross your fingers, toes and everything else for me!!
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
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