Evaluating Zac Rinaldo
I've made a lot of jokes at Zac Rinaldo's expense, and while they are not wholly unwarranted, I'd like to set the cheap shots aside for now and take a look at what he has actually contributed thus far.
After the jump, I'll look closely at his penalties taken, his penalties drawn, his fights, his hits, and who controls the play when he's on the ice.
Penalties taken
Rinaldo has taken an absurd number of penalties. He has been on the ice for 77 minutes and 55 seconds, 570th most in the NHL (Ed: all stats in this article are through 11/14). Yet his 58 PIMs rank second in the NHL.
Think about that for a minute. The average team has 19 skaters who have seen more ice time than him (remember, teams only dress 18 skaters each night), yet only one player in the league has accumulated more PIMs than he has.
It's not just because of fighting and misconducts, either -- he is second in the NHL in non-coincidental minor penalty rate, taking 4.7 of them per 60 minutes. That's more than any other team; Rinaldo skating by himself could have the Flyers leading the league in non-coincidental minors taken if they gave him more ice time.
I've heard the argument made that his penalties don't come at key times, but that doesn't hold up when you actually look at the history. Two-thirds of his penalties that put the team short-handed came when either the game was tied or the Flyers had a one-goal lead in the third period.
I've also heard the argument made that he doesn't deserve the calls he's getting, that he gets calls because of his reputation every time he hits someone. I'm skeptical of this claim (what small fraction of calls against the Flyers are considered "deserved" by Flyers fans?), but even if it's true, it's irrelevant. If referees call a penalty on him every time he blinks, then his being on the ice hurts the team until he can learn not to blink.
Penalties drawn
Let's turn to the positive: Rinaldo has also drawn a ton of penalties. He leads the league in drawing non-coincidental minors by a large margin, at 6.3 drawn per 60 minutes. It's a huge number, and more importantly, it's substantially more than he's taken. So while his penalty taking is a detriment, he's actually managed to more than balance it out.
The list of penalties suggests it's not all chance, either. He's put the Flyers on the power play by drawing penalties for roughing, unsportsmanlike conduct, cross-checking, instigator, slashing, hooking, tripping, and slashing. That sounds like an effective pest to me.
So while I enjoy making jokes about how many penalties he takes, the truth is that he's balanced that out so far.
Fights
Rinaldo is a fighter, and while different people value it differently, there is surely some value in having someone who can stand up for his teammates.
However, he's not off to a great start as a fighter. Hockeyfights.com has Rinaldo at 0-2-2 this year, with draws against Dustin Penner and Zenon Konopka and losses to previously-winless opponents Cody Bass and Matt Bradley. But more interesting to me is that none of those fights involved Rinaldo standing up for his teammates.
Two of Rinaldo's fights (Penner and Bradley) came when opponents stood up for their teammates after one of Rinaldo's hits. The other two both came when the Flyers had a 4-0 lead in the first period, a situation where the Flyers would probably prefer that Rinaldo decline the fight.
Not once this year has Rinaldo stood up for a teammate, fought to energize a team that's struggling, or even just won a fight. Adding toughness to the lineup might be good in the abstract, but he still needs to show that he knows when to fight.
Hits
Rinaldo has laid some big hits this year. NHL.com only picks a couple of hits per game to include in their online highlights, but Rinaldo has been featured four times already. It's safe to say he's probably the biggest hitter on the team right now, and that's a big part of why he's a favorite of many fans. Those hits have a lot of entertainment value, but we're here to talk about the effect he has on the game, not on the attendance count.
It's often argued that big hits can energize a team, so let's look for that. One of my favorite ways to assess who controlled the play is looking at shot attempts (including missed and blocked shots), because most shot attempts are the result of possession in the offensive zone and most good possessions in the offensive zone result in shot attempts.
Rinaldo has been credited with a hit 24 times this year. In the minute following one of his hits, the Flyers have been outshot 20-11. In the second minute after, the shots are even (17-17), and they go slightly against the Flyers (13-11) in the minute after that.
There is no evidence that Rinaldo's hits have given the team an energizing boost that would help them carry the play. If his hits have a positive impact, it's not a temporary momentum boost; it would have to be a longer-term impact of the fear of physical harm. So let's look at whether the team carries the play when Rinaldo is on the ice.
Actual hockey results
All of the above works in his favor, but none of these factors is a dramatic selling point.
He's drawing more penalties than he's taking, but doing a lot of both is risky. He's a tough guy, but he hasn't yet shown that he really understands who or when to fight. He lays big intimidating hits, but there's no sign of a positive impact on momentum.
In the end, his grade will be driven much more by his actual hockey results than by the penalties and fights and hits that dominate the conversation about him. So how does he look in that regard?
First, let's check what kind of situations he's seeing. The Flyers are still spreading their tough shifts around. Rinaldo is getting more than his share of defensive zone draws (4/14 among forwards with 5+ games), but against weak competition (13/14 in Corsi Rel QoC). Those seem like roughly neutral assignments.
When Rinaldo is on the ice, the opposition is carrying play. He has the lowest Corsi (shot differential) on the team, meaning the opponents have the puck in the Flyers end and are getting shots at the Flyers' net. If you're skeptical of Corsi, take a look at Todd's scoring chance summary -- Rinaldo has been on the ice for only three chances for and nine against, the worst ratio on the team and the only player worse than -2. On a team that is outscoring their opponents at even strength 46-34, he's been on the ice for more goals against than for.
Whether you prefer to focus on Corsi, scoring chances, or goals, the team has just been worse when he's on the ice. That is why he's only getting a couple of minutes of ice time per game.
And yet there are still people who point to the team's excellent 9-1-3 record with him in the lineup as proof of his importance. They imagine that a player who is on the ice for only a couple of minutes per game and makes the team worse during those few minutes could somehow be the driving force behind an excellent record. It just doesn't pass the logical reasoning test; it's only slightly more likely that Rinaldo drove those results than that Chuck Gormley was the reason the Caps were 9-0 in games he covered and 0-3 in games he didn't.
Rinaldo isn't giving the team some special spark. The goalies have just happened to play terribly when he wasn't in the lineup (0.850 save percentage, 4.00 GAA) and well when he was (the one regulation loss was the Winnipeg game, and the goalies have a 0.926 save percentage and 2.08 GAA in his other 12). Unless you think that seeing Rinaldo on the bench for 55 minutes has a special calming influence for Bryzgalov, you probably shouldn't read much into this.
Rinaldo does have more skill than someone like Jody Shelley, and a nice play here and there have caught people's attention. In all fairness, it's not like we expect the 12th forward to consistently win the play, either. With the intangibles all working in his favor so far, he's perfectly adequate as a 12th forward -- nothing more, nothing less.
The potential is there. If he can cut down on the minors he takes, if he can fight to stand up for teammates and change momentum, if he can lay big hits without charging, he can become a productive pest. Until then, he's just another guy, and when their other forwards get healthy, the Flyers should return Rinaldo to the AHL to work on discipline.
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I cannot rec this enough.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:10 PM EST reply actions
Whether you prefer to focus on Corsi, scoring chances, or goals, the team has just been worse when he’s on the ice. That is why he’s only getting a couple of minutes of ice time per game.
Just thought I’d pull that out in case people wanted to call you a hater.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:14 PM EST reply actions
Question generally about stats. There’s a qualcomp thing right which measures the quality of the people that Rinaldo plays against? Just wondering where he’s at on that metric.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Only Shelley has faced weaker competition for the Flyers this year.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Cool. Thanks.
How is that measured? *(You don’t need to explain it right here if you don’t want, you can just get me a link)
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Of the two biggest, they either go on plus/minus adjusted for ice time or Corsi.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
There are a few different competition metrics, but they’re all calculated by averaging [some score] for all of the opponents he faced, weighted by how much ice time he had against them.
[some score] can be an adjusted plus/minus, it can be Corsi, or it can be Corsi Rel — which is the one I use. He ranks 11/14 among forwards in the plus/minus based one and 13/14 in the Corsi-based one.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I see. Thanks.
Something I’ve been wondering for a bit now. is there a metric that can boil down how good a game someone had? I mean like take Corsi or Fenwick and do something ((You can tell but I’m not a math guy…well that is to say I’ve forgotten all the math I once new and was pretty decent at, including a 4 in AP STATS)) with qualcomp and adjusted +/- to come up with some number to tell you how effective that player was during a specific game?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
You might be able to tell but I’ve been toying with going to the darkside…I hear you have cookies.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I do, but I don’t share.
Honestly, I don’t look at the single game stats very often, so I’m not sure what’s reliable. It would be pretty easy to calculate adjusted Corsi for each game, but I don’t know if it’d be meaningful.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all to learn that at the single game level, your eyes are better than any stat.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Semi-OT
Eric, for quite a while I’ve been thinking about the fact that you might be able to get some kind of consulting gig based on your efforts. I’m completely serious. Your work is top-notch and this stuff is in its infancy. This is exactly how Bill James got his start in the 1970s/1980s.
At the very least, you and colleagues ought to form an association like the Society for Baseball Research (yes, sabermetric is actually an acronym for those who did not know). Maybe OSHA (Organization for Statistical analysis in Hockey in the Americas)?.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Hockey Analysis and Value Evaluation Society (HAVES)
Bob.
by The Dark on Nov 17, 2011 12:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, I’ve thought about it too.
There are a couple of guys who work with teams on occasion — Hawerchuk talks about it a lot. I’m not sure how one would break into that circuit, but it’d definitely be fun.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
You’d have to break in with some of the smaller market teams, send in stuff and show how your work (that you’ve already done) predicted performance. Some team like Nashville would be ideal, except they already have a pretty tight system (uh, they did until the insane Rinne signing).
Wait, I bet Scott Howson might be open to new ideas right now!
/sadly, not entirely joking
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Don’t forget the CBA/Contract Department headed by DragonGirl. Seriously, as the musicians say, these people have chops.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 17, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Much Shorter Evaluation
The only evaluation necessary goes like this: The Flyers will always have an “Enforcer” on the team that plays a lot of the regular season, so anyone that takes issue with that needs to get over it.
Going from there, it’s Rinaldo or Shelley and I think everyone would take Rinaldo for the sheer fact that he can actually play a little bit.
“Rinaldo is better than Shelley.”
“Yeah, he sucks, but he doesn’t suck as much as this guy”.
I’ll take “Statements That Apply to 98% of Professional Hockey Players for $100, Alex”
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Geoff, not the point. We might like the Flyguys to simply avoid their felt need for an “enforcer” or “energy guy”. That’s just not going to happen. (I strongly doubt that Homer can even spell “Corsi”). Rinaldo is less wasted cap space than Shelley.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Anyone who can’t work their way into the regular lineup is wasted capspace, no matter what their cap hit is or their role.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Not arguing that point. I’m just saying management won’t buy into the premise.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
No, it’s not the point. But ending your analysis with “He’s better than Shelley” is also not analysis.
When you set such a terribly low bar, you aren’t saying much. There are good “enforcers” in this league. At least Zenon Konopka can take faceoffs. Brandon Prust can kill penalties. Derek Dorsett can kill penalties.
Just because Shelley is horrible doesn’t make Rinaldo good.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Just because Shelley is horrible doesn’t make Rinaldo good.
Sure.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Homer thinks ‘Corsi’ is one of those funny little furry short-legged dogs.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 17, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Is “enforcer” a fair label for a guy who hasn’t yet stood up for a teammate?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Just asking because I can’t remember too many cases so far but have we really needed someone to step up for a teammate this year?
by youtastelikeaburger on Nov 17, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Two come immediately to mind, maybe other people can come up with more.
Chara hit Giroux in the opener, with Rinaldo in the lineup. JvR and Coburn came to his immediate aid, but Rinaldo never fought.
Against Buffalo, Weber’s hit injured van Riemsdyk, with Rinaldo in the lineup. Again, Coburn was the one who ended up fighting him, during a scrum that saw Rinaldo and Roy take offsetting slashing penalties (with a misconduct for Rinaldo).
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I forgot about that Chara hit, not that Chara was going to fight Rinaldo but that would have been an interesting matchup.
by youtastelikeaburger on Nov 17, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Rinaldo’s fights are pointless, but thoroughly entertaining. He wears down opponents by constantly grating on them and then – with no warning or purpose – the guy has enough of him and drops his gloves to get relief from his tormentor. Again, totally defeats the purpose of playing to win the game, but it’s fun to watch the guy lose his mind and throw wild, desperate punches at Rinaldo, the guy’s personal demon.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
I like Wayne Simmonds as the enforcer
He can play, and he wins his fights.
Wayne Simmonds for Sheriff
It worked in Blazing Saddles.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
“What’s a dazzling urbanite like you doing in a…”
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 17, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
The Flyers will always have an "Enforcer" on the team that plays a lot of the regular season
I don’t think Eric’s analysis is trying to argue this. He’s just trying to evaluate Rinaldo’s performance, and how the team plays with him on the roster, since it has been the topic of so many debates around here. He’s not saying how the team is better or worse with “an enforcer” on the roster since, as you say, there always is somebody in that role. This isn’t about whether or not the Flyers should have an enforcer. It’s specifically about Rinaldo. (Who happens to be better than another candidate enforcer, Jody Shelley.)
The only evaluation necessary goes like this:
so anyone that takes issue with that needs to get over it.
And way to be dismissive of Eric’s hard work in writing this, or of anybody else’s opinion who might disagree with you. I agree with your last sentence about Rinaldo over Shelley, but I almost don’t care because you’re being a jerk (IMO) with the my way or the highway crap. It’s fine to have an opinion and stick to it, but it’s hard to want to engage in useful conversation with you if that’s how you’re going to treat other folks’ opinions.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Though I dread that the organization will keep him with the big club for longer than they should, this article made me cautiously optimistic. I think there’s a lot of potential in him and he’s an absolute upgrade from Shelley. Also there’s this really cool t-shirt coming out with his nickname on it.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 12:20 PM EST reply actions
The fact you have wasted the awesomeness of a Luchadore design on Rinaldo makes me want to cry. I would totally buy this if it was anyone else.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
Who else fits that bill?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Nov 17, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Rinaldo has shown some flashes of promise so far with his tenacious play, grating demeanor and propensity to hit anybody on the ice. What will take him to the next level is if he develops a complementary skill to go with his current skillset, such as a decent scoring touch, dependable defensive play or better fighting ability. He’s young, so he’s got time to do that if he works hard enough.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Agreed, and I tried to say as much. I do see potential in him; I just don’t think he’s part of the Flyers’ best 12 or 13 right now.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
What will take him to the next level is if he develops a complementary skill to go with his current skillset
Maybe, But other than fighting, this seems doubtful to me (despite my post above). I think Zac’s ceiling is a slightly-higher-quality-than-Carcillo-level. Key will be if he continues to learn at the pace he’s been learning so far this year. Frankly, the fact that I’d rather keep him than Shelley actually represents his improvement from last year.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
My perception is clouded by the fact that if I had to make a guess before the season where Rinaldo would be at this stage of his career, I would’ve guessed “banned from professional hockey.”
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
I think the mere idea that Rinaldo might have a higher ceiling on playing actual hockey than Carcillo is pretty silly. I can’t remember the stats, but I’m pretty sure that its been pointed out he was never a player who could score in any league, even Major Juniors.
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
It’s the ceiling. That’s the top.
Maybe he doesn’t even reach the chandelier.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
At 17, Rinaldo was 7-7-14 in 63 games. Carcillo was 15-16-31 in 47 games.
At 18, Rinaldo was 10-20-30 in 56 games. Carcillo was 29-37-66 in 68 games.
At 19, Rinaldo was 10-15-25 in 60 games. Carcillo was 30-29-59 in 61 games.
There’s no question that Carcillo was a better offensive player in juniors, and Rinaldo’s pedestrian juniors numbers make me think it’s unlikely that he’ll do much at the NHL level, but his playing style does suggest potential.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I’m not sure there’s a way to track this, but Rinaldo’s got some foot speed and some intelligence. I don’t think his upside is offensive, but defensive.
Anyway, if there’s untapped potential, it certainly doesn’t seem to be a high offensive upside.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Agreed. He’s doing better than I initially expected, based on the stories out of the AHL last year, so we’ll just have to see where he goes from here. He can definitely be a pest to the other team, hopefully he can develop the other aspects of his game.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I’d like to point out that he’s got a low cap hit and has a goal and 2 assists this year. Scott Gomez on the Habs has a ridiculous 7something mil cap hit and hasn’t scored since last Feb.
Gomez also has a 20.1 CorsiRel against tougher opponents.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Good stuff. Actually read the whole thing.
by mantis toboggan on Nov 17, 2011 12:43 PM EST reply actions
Some guy on Twitter:
@BSH_EricT “columns” like this make me wonder if people actually watch the games
Too perfect.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Yeah, it only took 22 minutes, which means he clearly didn’t get past the 3rd paragraph.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
What’s really interesting is that this what they used to say about “instrument flight rules”. Pilots would say, why trust those machines when I can see stuff with my eyes!
There is no pilot in the world who would trust visual if it conflicted with with instrument. Eventually, this will also be true in hockey.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
Off topic, do you just fly General Aviation/Civilian?
by KornontheKobb on Nov 17, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
No, but I do know a bit about FAA rules.
/too complex a story to explain
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's reported bloat-signing
haha, it’s probably not that bad…I’m in undergraduate pilot training for the Air Force currently. I was going to disagree with your statement because of semantics…substitute visual for your senses and I agree :)
by KornontheKobb on Nov 17, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Damn. I saw the headline and was hoping for a psych eval.
Very thorough. Thank you.
Guys like Rinaldo sure do get a lot of attention. I remember in Game 2 of the SCF against Chicago when NBC focused on Carcillo it made you think he was the most important guy on the team. The “entertainment” value of these guys is pretty high.
I’m going to try to adopt @Will21’s approach and deal with reality. I’m not going to expect the Flyers to use the roster spot for a different kind of player or expect Rinaldo to develop those kinds of skills. It’s like expecting your spouse to suddenly become thin, or punctual, or attentive. We’re married to the Flyers we have. My hope is that his ratio of minor for/against is good and that he becomes a better fighter.
Does anyone remember whether Laviolette’s use of these kind of players was similar in New York or Carolina? I’m curious about Laviolette’s thoughts vs. the GM or the organization. On one hand he often dresses that guy instead of someone like Nodl (or Zherdev). On the other he limits his ice time, beyond what is normal for a 4th-line player.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 17, 2011 12:44 PM EST reply actions
Know what else we expected to be forever true? That the Flyers would never have a goalie.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going to try to adopt @Will21’s approach and deal with reality. I’m not going to expect the Flyers to use the roster spot for a different kind of player or expect Rinaldo to develop those kinds of skills. It’s like expecting your spouse to suddenly become thin, or punctual, or attentive. We’re married to the Flyers we have. My hope is that his ratio of minor for/against is good and that he becomes a better fighter.
Why not have a guy like Simmonds do it? It’ll cost him some TOI, but how often do you actually need an enforcer?
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
I would be very happy indeed if the pest/energy/enforcer roles were secondary tasks for players with other skills. I hope and suspect that these single-purpose players are slowly moving into obsolescence. I’m just adjusting to the belief that the Flyers will be one of the last teams to jump in that pool.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 17, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
When Rinaldo is on the ice, the opposition is carrying play. He has the lowest Corsi (shot differential) on the team, meaning the opponents have the puck in the Flyers end and are getting shots at the Flyers’ net.
Would guys who tend to hold on to the puck but not shoot have a lower Corsi despite still keeping control of the puck? For example, when the HBL line was first put together and looked amazing in the playoffs, I remember Ville Leino having the puck almost glued to his stick.
To be clear, this is a legit question, and is in no way an attempt to start an argument or troll anyone. (apparently I need disclaimers around here)
You don’t need disclaimers, you need to know what trolling is.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 17, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Just for you, I looked it up.
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
I was hoping to avoid doing all of that, so I put in the disclaimer to make it clear that it wasn’t my intent. If you’re going to get sand in your vagina every time I post something, how about I just not reply to anything you say, and you extend me the same courtesy?
Pop quiz
Please locate the phrase in the preceding post with the intent of maximum dirsuption:
a. I was hoping to avoid doing all of that
b. extend me the same courtesy
c. if you’re going to get sand in your vagina
d. I put in the disclaimer
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 17, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I’ll take vagina for 500.
…If I hade a dime for every time I said that…
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
by iJewJitsu on Nov 17, 2011 2:25 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
i nominate this for the alternative Flyers logo
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 17, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
This is a question that gets asked pretty frequently, but I think the difference between players or teams in how willing they are to take a shot is much smaller than the differences in how often they possess the puck in the offensive zone.
At the team level, the correlation between puck possession and Corsi is 0.9. It might be lower at the individual level, but since the individual is just one of ten people who might have the ice at any given moment, I doubt any individual could cause a big discrepancy between puck possession and Corsi.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Up to 10%, which is EXACTLY the missing correlation!
Obviously, each team has one guy holding on to the puck waaaaay too much.
Bob.
by The Dark on Nov 17, 2011 2:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Rinaldo has been entertaining, no doubt about it, but he’s no enforcer. It’s fine to see Shelley as a healthy scratch recently, but in the end, Rinaldo doesn’t replace Shelley in function on the Flyers…
by alaskalovestheflyers on Nov 17, 2011 1:47 PM EST reply actions
I remember Rinaldo saying he’s not afraid to play the enforcer role if he has to. We can’t expect him to throw down with Chara, but I wouldn’t be shocked to see him do one of his 10 second fights against most “heavyweights”.
Of course he’d do it if he had to. I’d guess that Jody Shelley/Derek Boogaard/George Parros all fight because filling the role of enforcer is what keeps them in the NHL.
As tough and batshit crazy as he may be, Zac Rinaldo is not in the same class as any of the above named fighters.
It’s certainly debatable as to whether the Flyers need a true enforcer like Shelley. But if they want that role filled, I don’t think a strong case can be made that Rinaldo can fill it.
Your continued civilized dialogue is most welcomed.
by alaskalovestheflyers on Nov 17, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I’d like to set the cheap shots aside
Hilarious. Rockin’. As usual, Eric, awesome stuff.
But I did need to point out that your stats provided do not support your hypothesis of:
Unless you think that seeing Rinaldo on the bench for 55 minutes has a special calming influence for Bryzgalov, you probably shouldn’t read much into this.
By the statistics, Rinaldo is this year’s good luck charm – just like Carbomb was once upon a time, and just like the shots-blocked rose dramatically when Leighton played. Seemingly unreasonable, but the statistics prove it to be so. (CAUSAL, perhaps not – but then that is the distinction so often missing in the ‘stats’ used around here. I note that I am not including the author in this mild indictment.)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 17, 2011 3:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is a seriously well-crafted evaluation. Well done, Eric. Early running for post of the year.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
I meant to post similar sentiments, but got caught up by the comments. It’s really a fascinating article. I mean, looking at shot differential in the minutes following a hit? I would have never thought of that. Brilliant. The whole thing is just so well thought-out. Great work.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
This is amazing. Great work Eric.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Nov 17, 2011 5:27 PM EST reply actions
if it helps sway any opinions, rinaldo is on my nhl 11 adirondack phantoms #1 pk line in my be a gm mode with 2 short handed goals on the season.
Hyka'n it up a notch.
weird, sarcasim font doesnt seem to work right for me. i’ll fix that when i get home tonight…
Hyka'n it up a notch.
It doesn’t do line breaks. So if you have a lot to say, break it into multiple lines and use the preview button. And leave a blank line between the lines, or the gray box from one line covers up the box on the other line.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Nov 17, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m no fan of Rinaldo, but I’m just going to play Devil’s Advocate for a second. If Rinaldo draws a lot of penalties and is not on the PP, his ice time would be low as a result. That could explain the team’s record while he’s not getting much ice time. Especially if the Penalty sends him to the box (with the other guy incurring more penalties.)
But, I’d rather not see him on the team.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
He’s ahead of only Shelley in even strength time though (and it’s not even close really), so it’s not only because he doesn’t play special teams.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I have mixed feelings about the article. I commend Eric for his conclusion of send down Zac…. When the others get healthy. Zac is competing with Nodl, Harry Z, and Shelley for the 12 th forward (19-28-68,21-48-93,10-24-17,14-27-X). When everyone is healthy I’d obviously go with Nodl because of his defensive ability but I disagree with most of the rest of the post and comments. I love Zac and thinks he has serious agitator ability.
Penalties: as of 11-17-11, he is +1.6 non coincidental minors per 60, good for second behind Scooters 2.0 and is one of only 7/17 Flyers who have played in more than ten games.
His fights have been great. He’s not one of the biggest guys at 5-11 185 but he’ll fight anyone. After killing Doughty with the hit of the year he was jumped - with no instigator - by 6-4 245 Dustin Penner. Hid he stand up for his teammates? No, but by not turtling and taking on someone with 6 inches and 50 pounds on him he gained respect. As for Coburn fighting Weber, not Rinaldo, Weber is at least 6-3 210+, it’s not a knock on Zac for not fighting, it’s a credit to Coby at 6-5 for standing up. As for the fights up 4-0, listen to what Simmonds said after he fought up 4-0. Something along the lines of ’they were running around, taking liberties, so I had to stand up n answer. Zac had to have had similar logic… Its not like he went out looking to scrap up 4-0.
As for hits, all I want to say is everyone knows when and where he is on the ice. That’s a plus—-dude flat out lays wood. I do want to say that the stat of corsi in the minute after a hit is pointless and flawed. What % of hits come in the offensive zone? 10? 20? 30 tops? Obviously the other team will shoot more because they get hit more with the puck in the scoring zone. The telling #s are the 17-17 and 13-11 in the minutes after. That means the puck was in the ozone, mow it is not. To say there is no evidence of energy boost is nuts! The Doughty hit took over the first period. His hits at home give the fans life—-argue that it may not translate to better play but when orange36 lays someone out, the WFC goes nuts.
As for his actual hockey numbers, is 77 minutes, most of which start in biz own zone with Jody Shelley and a rookie center really enough time to evaluate him on a fair basis? I know the numbers aren’t great but what do you expect? I love the agitator and see 3rd line potential but not yet.
In conclusion, it comes down to Shelley v Rinaldo v Holmstrom v Wellwood v other Phantoms. The other phantoms need ice time to get better, Rinaldo needs experience and an opportunity to thwart his reputation—- which he is doing. I watched a segment on NHL on the fly about the refs giving Zac shut calls, and I guarantee that if he keeps playing clean n smart those calls will start to come. When were depleted by injury Zac is a sucessful 12th forward for the Flyers with bottom-6 potential.
by OrangeNblacK on Nov 17, 2011 6:22 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Correction: Zac is one of 7 flyers with their PIM/60 +\- above 0
by OrangeNblacK on Nov 17, 2011 6:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
His fights have been great.
You saw the part where he hasn’t won a fight yet, right?
As for Coburn fighting Weber, not Rinaldo, Weber is at least 6-3 210+, it’s not a knock on Zac for not fighting, it’s a credit to Coby at 6-5 for standing up.
First of all, let’s not describe this as if Coburn just got there first and Rinaldo let him handle it. Nobody fought Weber at the time it happened. Much later in the game, when Rinaldo and Weber were on the ice at the same time, Rinaldo wasn’t even thinking about payback — he was busy getting in his own little pissing match with Roy instead. A scrum broke out and Coburn ended up fighting Weber, with seeming reluctance.
I just don’t see how you can call Rinaldo an enforcer if his teammates are taking crippling injuries on questionable hits and he’s not standing up for them. And I don’t see what his size has to do with it — if he isn’t big enough to stand up for hits by guys like Weber and Chara, then…well, I doubt the team needs an enforcer whose job is to protect them from the little guys.
Something along the lines of ’they were running around, taking liberties, so I had to stand up n answer. Zac had to have had similar logic… Its not like he went out looking to scrap up 4-0.
Dorsett slashed JvR, and Simmonds went out and beat the snot out of him. Why exactly did Rinaldo need to go out there and have another fight 45 seconds later? How did getting beaten by Cody Bass (who previously was 0-3-1 and had not done much of anything that game) help deter the liberties?
Was Ottawa taking any liberties with the Flyers in the first period of their game? Did accepting Konopka’s request to fight right after a faceoff prevent them from taking more liberties?
What % of hits come in the offensive zone? 10? 20? 30 tops?
13 of Rinaldo’s hits came in the offensive zone. 5 came in the neutral zone. 6 came in the defensive zone.
So the rest of your hypothesis about the telling numbers about how two minutes later the puck was out of the defensive zone for a 50-50 split in shots seems like bunk.
His hits at home give the fans life—-argue that it may not translate to better play but when orange36 lays someone out, the WFC goes nuts.
Yes, this is precisely what I argued. I agree that the fans love it, but I don’t see any effect on the ice.
As for his actual hockey numbers, is 77 minutes, most of which start in biz own zone with Jody Shelley and a rookie center really enough time to evaluate him on a fair basis?
Probably not, but I don’t see any evidence that he’s been good.
And you overstate the challenges of his shifts. As I said above, he has faced incredibly weak competition. You referred to his primary linemate as “a rookie center” instead of by name because Couturier has been one of the Flyers’ best drivers of play. Rinaldo has not spent most of his time with Shelley; his second most common linemate is Talbot, followed by Zolnierczyk and Nodl.
In conclusion, it comes down to Shelley v Rinaldo v Holmstrom v Wellwood v other Phantoms.
I count those guys (and Zolnierczyk) as the contenders for 13th best forward. The top 12 are Giroux-Jagr-Hartnell-Voracek-Simmonds-Briere-JvR-Schenn-Read-Couturier-Talbot-Nodl.
When were depleted by injury Zac is a sucessful 12th forward for the Flyers with bottom-6 potential.
Agreed, and I tried to say exactly that. He’s fine as a #12 forward while guys are hurt, but when they get better, I want him to go back to the AHL and refine his game.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
My only gripe with anything is the corsi after hits. In theory you can’t get a hit unless the opponent has the puck. Zac racks up hits on the forecheck- yes they are ‘offensive zone’ hits but he is making a defensive play. As for the fights up 4-0, I don’t remember particulars but he’s a young NHL fighter trying to rack up PIMs in a game that’s out of hand. I never once called him an enforcer because he’s not. He is an energy guy who lays the wood, that’s it right now.
by OrangeNblacK on Nov 18, 2011 12:29 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
In the minute following one of his hits, the Flyers have been outshot 20-11.
Perhaps because Rinaldo’s line is still on the ice for that minute?
Great stuff, Eric.
Please, call me F&B.
Or because hits occur in the defensive zone…
by OrangeNblacK on Nov 17, 2011 6:45 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
That’s something you’d have to support with some evidence, I think. It seems just as likely that hits would come in the offensive zone on the forecheck, no?
Please, call me F&B.
Not if you’re Tampa Bay.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Nov 17, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That’s something you’d have to support with some evidence, I think.
“I saw it with my eyes.”
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Overall totals for the Flyers this year, for what it’s worth:
Forwards have 97 OZ hits, 31 NZ hits, 45 DZ hits.
Defensemen have 8 OZ hits, 12 NZ hits, 49 DZ hits.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Nov 17, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What were Rinaldo’s?
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Nov 17, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
I just posted it a few comments up — 13 of Rinaldo’s hits came in the offensive zone. 5 came in the neutral zone. 6 came in the defensive zone.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Cool, are you able to divide the one minute shot attempts differential into whether the hit was made in the offensive zone or defensive zone? Probably too small a sample to draw conclusions from but would be interesting…
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Nov 17, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Not really, I’m afraid. I’d have to pull them out manually, which would be a pain, and as you say, the sample size gets pretty small when you start asking about shot totals over five or six one-minute spans.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Yeah in any case that would be something to evaluate later in the season perhaps (unless Rinaldo gets sent down, which is perhaps too much wishful thinking…).
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Nov 17, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
You could also argue that the Flyers’ league-leading proportion of time on special teams is particularly disadvantageous because the team has been better at ES, and therefore even if Rinaldo is drawing more than he’s taking, he’s might still be hurting the team despite the slight PP bump. But you’d probably run into PDO problems establishing their quality of play at ES and PP/PK.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Awesome article Eric, thanks for enlightening me a bit on the actually stats at hand such as Corsi and shots after hits. It takes what people may think about him (including myself) and either back them up or essentially falsify them. Great article and thanks for posting.
Awesome.
Tracking the Flyers scoring chances at Broad Street Hockey
by ToddtheFox on Nov 18, 2011 2:05 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
I’m not sure how much it’s worth, perhaps little, but looking at his TOI a factor in his penalty drawing/taking is that he doesn’t play special teams at all really. So if he gets into it with somebody and sometimes draws a penalty and sometimes takes one then that’s probably a good exchange for you even if it’s 50:50 since the other guy is more likely to be a PK contributor than him.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
and BTW nice work. I think you’ve made a strong case that if he’s considered valuable then he’s overrated – I’m not familiar with his rep in Philly. Just a thought I had when reading the penalty bit.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
Agreed.
But that’s a mitigating factor, not a driving one — if he’s really terrible, then having him go out and trade penalties is a big plus. If he’s average, then it’s a wash. If he’s great, then it’s a minus. So someone first has to concede that he’s not very good if they want to argue that his exchanges of penalties help the team.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Can you look at who he’s drawing penalties from? Whether they’re similar fourth line players to him, or if he’s taking top nine players off the ice?
Tracking the Flyers scoring chances at Broad Street Hockey
Sure.
D. Clarkson 2 min roughing
D. Clarkson 2 min unsportsmanlike conduct
A. Burrows 2 min cross checking
D. Penner 17 min instigator/fighting/misconduct
K. Westgarth 12 min unsportsmanlike conduct/misconduct
Z. Konopka 5 min fighting
J. Oduya 2 min slashing
T. Brent 2 min hooking
D. Roy 2 min slashing
C. Bass 5 min fighting
P. Kubina 2 min tripping
M. Bradley 5 min fighting
T. Ruutu 2 min slashing
K. Chipchura 5 min fighting
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
.
He’s put the Flyers on the power play by drawing penalties for roughing, unsportsmanlike conduct, cross-checking, instigator, slashing, hooking, tripping, and slashing.
“You said slashing twice.”
“I like slashing.”

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

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