Ville Leino isn't exactly working out so far with the Buffalo Sabres
by Travis Hughes on Nov 2, 2011 1:35 PM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Commentary
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Here's what we had to say back on July 1, when Terry Pegula and his shiny new toy, the Buffalo Sabres, threw all kinds of excited money at former Philadelphia Flyers forward Ville Leino:
The Buffalo Sabres signed him to an unbelievably obscene six year, $27 million contract today. The deal was announced by the team and the details were reported by TSN. It's overpayment in every sense of the word, and it's $1.5 million more per year than the Flyers were willing to dish out. Can't blame him for going after the money at all... but holy crap, Ville Leino is not worth that much money.
We loved the guy during his time here and it was fun while it lasted. Not upset about losing him when all is said and done, though. Everybody is overpaying this year, but think of it this way: Jaromir Jagr for one year at $3.3 million, or Ville Leino at $4.5 million for the next six?
Our major concern: Leino was expecting a major pay day based on what, exactly? An awesome 2010 playoff run, which totaled just 19 games? A relatively mediocre single full season with the Flyers, in which he only put up a pedestrian 53 points in 81 games?
Yeah, not worth the money or the risk.
We're only a month into the season, and sure, maybe Ville could break out and turn this season into a 60, 70 or even 80 point campaign by years end. But that would be an unbelievable, incredible turnaround this year. The only way the Sabres are going to be able to justify throwing so much money at the guy is if he's able to complete that turnaround while also sustaining a very high level of play for the next five years. He's never proven the capability to do that over the course of more than 19 games at a time in his NHL career to date.
They're trying to help him out. Lindy Ruff has pushed Leino up on to the top line with Jason Pominville and Thomas Vanek, and maybe that'll kick start him a bit. After all, while he has just two points on the season so far, and while he's not worth the money Buffalo gave him, he's also not as bad as the 16 or 17 point pace he's on, either.
No matter what, it's going to take a lot for this experiment to work out for the Sabres, and it doesn't seem like it's happening just now. Can you imagine how we'd feel if the Flyers gave him a six year, $27 million contract based on a single 53 point season, only to have him lead off that new contract with two points in 10 games?
Thank God (or Paul Holmgren, whatever) they didn't. Instead, we get to pity Sabres fans, who are already making comments like these:
Ladies and gentleman, our newest Tim Connolly. With only six years left to gripe about.
He looks lost bringing the puck into the zone, and seems to commit at least two face-palming turnovers a game. Maybe Lindy Ruff needs to give Leino a bit of a push by moving him up the depth chart a bit, like he did with Brad Boyes on the power play. We'll find out when Leino gets his shot tomorrow, teaming up with Vanek and Pominville on the Sabres' explosive first line. But if that doesn't work, once Jochen Hecht and Tyler Ennis are ready to come back, could Leino find himself as the odd man out? Something that seemed so unlikely just a week ago actually may be closer to reality than we think.
That two-face-palming-turnovers-a-game thing sounds pretty damned familiar, doesn't it?
His high price tag may provide easy fodder for critics looking to label him a "bust" if he struggles early on. The fact of the matter is, you need to overpay to bring in the hot names, and Leino was one of them this offseason. Darcy Regier decided to take a risk and pay the man. Time will tell if it was a savvy move, catching a player on the rise, or a case of panic and overpaying for a perceived roster need. Luckily, with the deep pockets of Terry Pegula, this team can now afford mistakes like that.
Yeah, we're not exactly calling him a bust, but we all could've seen this coming back in June and July. Leino was indeed a hot item on the UFA market this past summer, but as we said: why exactly was he a hot item? The league was so enamored with his postseason play in 2010 that they basically overlooked his the entire rest of his NHL career to that point -- the barely making it to the league thing, the mediocre season with the Flyers.
He might be able to turn this thing around, but no matter what, I still think we can safely say that Leino will never live up to a $4.5 million a year price tag. Luckily, the Flyers were smart enough to hold back the temptation.
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The question before us is....
Who was the league’s last most undeserving overrated player before Ville Leino?
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by jello44 on Nov 2, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wonder what sucks more for Ville, that he is having a dreadful season so far or that for the majority of the year he has to live in Buffalo?
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
What’s funny is with the Bills leaving Buffalo for Toronto, you’d think the Sabres would be as well… except Toronto obviously has a team haha. It’s also interesting that Toronto would allow a rival team so close to the Maple Leafs considering their refusal to let a team move to the Canadian territory near them.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Why would the Bills moving to Toronto mean the Sabres would also move to Toronto? And what do you mean about Toronto “allowing a rival team so close to the Maple Leafs”?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
You know, just like Philly not allowing Delaware to have their own team. Right? Or New Jersey. (Although I heard a rumor one of the NY teams practiced there …)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew it was always Philadelphia keeping us Delawareans down…
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Is Delaware big enough to have its own team?
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Sure, as long as they can put the arena parking lot in Maryland.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
LULZ. Make it one big parking lot.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Maryland? Sometimes I think it already is one.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Naah. There’s all the chicken farms factories in the Eastern Shore.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ooh – I didn’t know. Sorry.
:)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
VILLE STYLE
Has a new meaning.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
Trade proposal!
Ilya for Ville, straight up! Then I’d buy Ville out at the end of the year. Saves $24 million!
/mostly not serious, but that’s the only deal I’d do
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009
by Bud in TN on Nov 2, 2011 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think hartnell and briere kinda made leino what he was here. He was great on the puck and hard to knock off of it but as soon as we signed jagr I knew we took about 10 steps up from where we were and we saved 1.5 million in the process. Say what you want but I definitely believe in Paul holmgren
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
Sweet – maybe the Sabres will take those two awful contracts and add them to Leino’s. I’d take Jordan Leopold off their hands, plus some more contracts. :)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
.....
I hate when ppl say that briere’s contract is awful….For me he has more then lived up to it… and has been one of our best players every year….now hartnell I can agree with
You can like a player and still hate the contract. The contract was big and has a NMC, which hamstrings a team should he decline—HOWEVER, the Flyers were coming off a terrible season and signed the best available FA at the time because they had to (in their minds). I prefer him over Gomez or Drury, who were the other 2 available at the time and this was before the market went completely in the toilet. Hindsight 20/20 and all that bness.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
I’ll be the first to admit – I didn’t want Briere, I didn’t want Drury, and Gomez I could take or leave. I thought there were some better options out there (Camalleri, Brisebois, Penner, etc.) that fit the team mold better than a shrimpy Frenchy.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought there were some better options out there (Camalleri, Brisebois, Penner, etc.) that fit the team mold better than a shrimpy Frenchy.
Tracking the Flyers scoring chances at Broad Street Hockey
I thought he was Italian with that name. :)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
OOOH – now I remember. Comrie!!! :)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
$6.5 million a season for another four (4!) years – and for that you get less than a point per game, and nearly a penalty minute per game. I don’t know that I call that real value for the dollar spent; one penalty minute per point is more like what I expect from Nodl. Or Milan Lucic.
It is, admittedly, close to market value if you say that Semin and Backstrom and Iginla are the market … and that Briere belongs in that group.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
More than lived up to it?
’07-08: 31-41-72 = T28th
’08-09: 11-14-25 (29 GP)
’09-10: 26-27-53 = T75th
’10-11: 34-34-68 = 26th
He’s never been better than 26th in scoring and he’s an absolute defensive liability. How is that more than living up to a top-20 cap hit?
Yeah, he’s been good in the playoffs, and that counts for something. But on the flip side, don’t forget to factor in that he’s only halfway through his eight-year deal.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
You aren’t looking at playoffs-only scoring.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Looking at playoffs-only scoring is how some in Buffalo are defending the Leino signing.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
That’s like saying, “Yeah, she’s so pretty I don’t care that she’s a man!”
Not that there’s anything wrong with saying that. ;-p
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The good news for Leino supporters: Buffalo is shooting just 3.85% when he’s on the ice at even strength. That’s ridiculously unsustainable, and his assist rate will go up when his teammates start shooting.
The bad news for Leino supporters: he has just 5 SOG through 10 games, so few that even his 20% shooting percentage has him on an 8-goal pace. Yeah, there’s obviously variance at this point, but that’s not an encouraging sign.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
In terms of point production...
I don’t think it’s quite fair to call Leino’s 10/11 mediocre or pedestrian. He was 5th in 5-on-5 ice time amongst Flyers forwards (not including Versteeg), putting him somewhere between a 1st and 2nd line winger in terms of usage.
According to this piece from Pension Plan Puppets (http://sbn.to/qapt4G), that would make him either around an “average” 1st line winger or a “good” 2nd line winger.
Now, if you want to argue that his production was mediocre because he faced off against very easy competition with sheltered zone starts yet didn’t push the play forward, well then you have a point. And he certainly didn’t deserve that monstrosity of a contract. But in terms of pure point production, Leino was pretty solid last year.
Exactly,
53 points is hardly “pedestrian”, but in the relative sense of what he’s was making/is now making, then yeah, a career best 53 point season is not nearly enough to warrant the money or contract length offered to Leino.
I knew he was going to command more money based on his play, but what he wanted was sheer lunacy. Yet, there’s a lunatic out there to give it to him, so good for Ville…
After 10 years, I still can't figure out how Jiri Dopita had a 4 goal game and disappeared.
In comparison to expectations (fair or not), I think he was just very average.
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by Travis Hughes on Nov 2, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong
I think a majority of the points he scored weren’t so much opportunities created by him as they were his linemates. Leino isn’t a guy that’s going to carry the play by himself, or even be a go-to guy on whatever line he’s on, but he fits in nicely as an “option” on the wing. I guess if you consider the depth the Flyguys were rocking last year, and my aforementioned opinion of Leino, then I could resign to saying he’s average, or slightly above average.
After 10 years, I still can't figure out how Jiri Dopita had a 4 goal game and disappeared.
I think that when he was providing the team his best value it was in generating plays. He showed the ability to hold onto the puck longer than most players, while creating disruptive movement in the offensive zone, thereby freeing space for his linemates. This was sometimes true even when he was being bodied (contrary to his reputation). He did it enough to make me happy he was on the team, and it was worth the turnovers.
But he was too expensive to keep and as others have said it wasn’t as though he’d been doing this year after year.
by flyersfaninchicago on Nov 2, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
If you start with point production that’s average for a first liner or good for a second liner, then discount the point production for the fact that he saw the most sheltered minutes on the team by far, and add in the fact that he doesn’t play any defense, and it starts to sound like an adequate one-way forward for the second line.
“Pedestrian” seems like a good word for it to me.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
The problem, I think, comes in how the word was used, not that it was used at all.
Travis didn’t say “He had a pedestrian season”, he said
“A relatively mediocre single full season with the Flyers, in which he only put up a pedestrian 53 points in 81 games?
Nobody is saying his season wasn’t “relatively mediocre”, it’s an objection to 53 points being “pedestrian”.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 2, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
Leino’s 10/11 was one of those classic seasons that looked much worse when you really studied the underlying numbers/situations.
Just took issue with the idea that 53 points for a second liner is mediocre production. That kind of mentality leads to unrealistic expectations for other second liners.
I have to agree with you there, especially the last paragraph where you clarify.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 2, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought the more money you gave a player, the better they did.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Ville Leino isn't exactly working out so far with the Buffalo Sabres
NO WAY GUYZ, I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING
Hey holmgren resign jagr now because his price is going up with every game he plays with giroux
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 2:36 PM EDT reply actions
Not sure if you are serious...
There is no way to afford Jagr for next season unless you completely give up on one of Carle or Coburn and maybe Voracek too. Well there are lots of ways to do it, but it would involve a bunch of moves. Like a Jagr pay cut, trading a top 9 forward, etc.
by hebrew hammer on Nov 2, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
If we can afford him now, then we can afford him in the future. Only guy who will get a substantial raise is probably Voracek, and thats still up in the air now. I also don’t think we will keep both Carle and Coburn. I’d like to, but I don’t think they can keep investing so much into defenseman. I think we should draft a Defender in the 1st this year just for the sake of building the prospects up(or pry Kessel shines)
Only guy who will get a substantial raise is probably Voracek
JvR will make $2.5M more next year. Carle and Coburn both hit UFA and likely get raises of around $1-1.5M.
The new CBA is a huge wildcard; we have no idea what next year’s cap will be. But I think it’s pretty simplistic to say that if the Flyers can afford Jagr now, they can afford him in the future.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Ahh right, I forgot about JVR. Maybe Jagr can sign a 2 year deal, spend next year in Glenn Falls, and come back when we lose Harts and Kimmo haha.
We need every dollar possible available for Crosby's UFA
by hebrew hammer on Nov 2, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think any team should dedicate that large of a hit to one player, but I would love to see the reaction of the fans who booed Crosby for years suddenly embrace him, while everyone in Pittsburgh cries.
by hebrew hammer on Nov 2, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be hilarious. I for one respect Crosby as a player and my only complaints about him are the fact he plays for Pitt and he constantly lights up the lamp on us.
If he was on the Flyers, we’d be in cap hell and have to trade about 4 forwards to fit him, but I would spend about a week basking in the despair of Pittsburgh.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
What about Stamkos!
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
We can get him when Danny B’s contract runs out. Just ditch JVR at the same time. 41 year old Pronger, 37 year old Breezy, and Stamkos and Crosby. That team wins the cup for sure!
by hebrew hammer on Nov 2, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
/nod
Before resigning/replacing Jagr, Voracek, Carle, or Coburn, the Flyers have 53.8M committed (plus potential bonuses) for next year. Since they’re desperately thin on top-4-caliber defensive prospects and struggling to find top-9 time for all of their top-9-caliber forwards, letting Jagr go seems like the natural solution.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
TRADE HARTNELL.
Wait, he’s doing really well lately.
LET VORACEK WALK!
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 2, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not enthralled with either – but I realize I am (as usual) in the minority. And as far as cost goes, Voracek comes in cheaper, for more potential.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m very much against getting rid of Carle or Coburn. We have forwards ready to make the top 6 jump but maybe no defensemen ready to make the top 4 jump.
by mantis toboggan on Nov 2, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Right now I don’t think jvr deserved that huge pay raise they gave him that raise based on his playoff performance last year and I hope he proves me wrong but he has been pretty much non existant this season so far even tho he did score twice in that horrible jets game but he has gotta get going here I really thought he would come out on fire this year but so far hasn’t I know the jagr giroux hartnell line has been amazing but I don’t get why lavy hasn’t tried a line of jagr brier hartnell it would be just like the leino briere hartnell line but with jagr who is a huge step up from ville and put jvr with giroux to get him going
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 3:02 PM EDT reply actions
I know lavy has been tinkering with the lines a little too much man we were unstoppable until they sent Rinaldo down and called up schenn we were fine before that and while were at it does anyone else agree with me on this that schenn looks very slow doesn’t skate very fast at all and I haven’t seen this great offense that everyone was talking about I was at the rookie game and I didn’t think schenn looked all that great that game either he just looks really slow although he did have some great checks in that rookie game right now I think couturier looks like he has more upside than schenn
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 3:11 PM EDT reply actions
I say after this year we cut Shelley, lappy comes off the cap as does betts let voracek walk resign Carle and jagr I have been calling coburn coburnt for the last 2 or 3 years
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 3:14 PM EDT reply actions
I say they cut Shelley tomorrow.
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by Travis Hughes on Nov 2, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't we just cut him right now?
I’ll break the news to him…from far away.
After 10 years, I still can't figure out how Jiri Dopita had a 4 goal game and disappeared.
If it would rid the team of him immediately I’d let him punch me once or twice.
by hebrew hammer on Nov 2, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
If they cut him right now I will Gladly drive to buffalo and pack his bags for him and personally drive him to adirondak and put his belongings into his new permanent locker there right next to Michael leighton Rinaldo deserves a chance up here that guy has speed and skill and he plowed doughty like the October snow we received last week compared to Shelley plowing that dude from Toronto into the glass when the guy was obviously in a vulnerable position like a moron then he proceeded to get his honey handed to him in a hand basket by rosehill all Shelley is, is a Bauer punching bag on skates pay me half of his salary and I will gladly get my face beat in on a daily basis I’d rather them start dressing the chief back up and let him handle the goon duties Shelley was the worst signing of holmgrens tenure why in the world would u give him 1.1 million over 3 years man such a waste of a roster spot, 1.1 million, and a pair of skates I actually thought for the longest time that I was in the minority of wanting him to skate down the tunnel and never been seen in orange and black ever again. I really can’t stand the people that buy jerseys with his name and number on the back when I see that I wanna pull that jersey over their heads and beat them into a bloody mess those people are the reasons we sign slow no skill having goons
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You were doing so well …
Rinaldo deserves a chance up here
… and then you blew it.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok put it this way if u need a goon type of guy u let Rinaldo do that if u don’t want a goon type let Harry z play and why holmstrom over wellwood I thought well wood looked good while he was up here last year has he been that horrible in the ahl
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Please, for at least my sake, consider the use of punctuation in your comments. It makes it far easier to discern your meaning.
2) If the team needs a ‘goon’ I’d rather it be a proper goon in the Cote/Fedoruk mold – cheap, decently responsible, cheap, and young. So that says “Sestito” to me.
3) I don’t believe the team needs a goon anyway, since most of the players aside from Briere can throw ‘em pretty well. So yeah – give Harry Z the minutes; I’m happy with that.
4) I’d actually be interested in seeing Testuide getting some call-up time as well, but I don’t have strong feelings on any of the three (Holmstrom, Testy, Wellwood). Wellwood is scoring the most in the AHL at the moment … I dunno.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Nov 2, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think we need a goon anymore either, those days are over. I wanna see the Stanley cup getting chauffeured down broad street one of these days, not a guy winning a fight or skating around with two black eyes.
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah man I agree Rinaldo hasn’t gotten stupid penalties he has actually drawn a few penalties against him and I think his speed fits well with the rest of the team if u give Shelley a spot on the bench Rinaldo deserves it more than him shelley hasn’t even won a fight and if someone goes after giroux he wouldn’t go after a smaller guy he would fight the other teams fighter that’s it I want a guy that if u hit giroux ur gonna get destroyed not ok ur guy hit giroux now tell ur goon I wanna fight him next shift I mean come on simmonds can throw if needed u don’t need a goon u have plenty of guys that can throw oh and they can skate Jody can’t I don’t care how many late night sessions he skates with jagr he will never be in the fastest skater challenge at all star weekend
by Ibleedorangeandblack on Nov 2, 2011 4:28 PM EDT reply actions
Glad to know the Flyers only took on one new shitty contract not two.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Nov 2, 2011 4:40 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
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