Wednesday Morning Fly By: Hopefully Nobody Tries Any Mass Murder Tonight
Today's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers-related news and notes...
- Winter Classic commercials! [Puck Daddy]
- Brayden Schenn, Andrej Meszaros, and Danny Briere returned to practice: [Philly Sports Daily]
- The Flyers were asked about the NHL's realignment and gave the company line about rivalries: [CSNPhilly] [Philly Sports Daily]
- Claude Giroux leads the NHL in GVT: [Hockey Prospectus]
- Wondering how Peter Laviolette's tenure will end while recapping how it's gone: [Flyers Faithful]
- Max Talbot remembers his first NHL goal. You probably remember it too. [delcotimes.com]
- More on Johan Backlund playing in Trenton: [trentonian.com]
- Looking back at some of the strangest divisions in NHL history: [Arctic Ice Hockey]
- The Predators lead the league in local TV ratings growth while the Flyers are 5th, and the highest non-Southern team: [On the Forecheck]
- Jordin Tootoo was suspended two games for his hit on Ryan Miller: [On the Forecheck] [SBNation.com] [Puck Daddy]
- Differentiating between Tootoo's hit and Milan Lucic's: [Orange & Black Pack]
- Looking at NHL Equivalencies for 2010 forwards shows Brendan Ranford in the top-50 but Michael Parks and Tye McGinn in the bottom-10: [The Copper & Blue]
- Could Jared Ross have the opportunity to watch his alma mater play in Division I again? Alabama-Huntsville is thinking of restarting their recently killed program: [al.com]
- Should your team fire the coach? Take the quiz: [Down Goes Brown]
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Did the Philly tv market expand? A 60% jump seems like a lot for a team as established as the Flyers. The only thing I could think of is expanded media coverage in new areas.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Or it could be that with the NBA locked out, more of the games are on CSN — the story is sort of unclear on whether “regional networks growing” means that CSN’s ratings are up 60% or the Flyers’ ratings (regardless of channel) are up 60%.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
But really, how many games have been moved back to CSN this year, 2 or 3, maybe?
My guess would be that CSN is now available in a new part of the market or something. As much as I love the Flyers, they already had one of the largest viewerships in the US NHL, and I think they are pretty high even compared to baseball and basketball teams; a 60% Increase would be something like 50,000 new households per game, which would be an almost inconceivable jump.
On the other hand, maybe Neilsen recruited new households. They do refresh them every couple years, and there are only 25,000 Neilsen households nationwide. This means their are fewer than 500 in the Philadelphia region, so a new group coming in could wildly swing the numbers. this is one of the biggest criticisms of the Neilsen system. It really hurts some small market teams, for example the Florida Panthers tv ratings basically mean that only 1 or 2 Neilsen households are tuning in.
Flyers, Phillies, Union, Eagles, Phantoms, Wings.
I’m personally appalled that we still have to use Neilson ratings. At the very least everyone with digital cable should be able to be easily counted individually.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Transferred to IR Jail.
Also, the Neilsen system is still as highly regarded by the media owners, even though many people are watching online and those numbers can be counted as well.
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
well that’s more understandable as the media and cable people seem to believe that internet tv is the devil.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Transferred to IR Jail.
Haha, sad but true. Comcast especially hates it because it eats into their power from both ends. They lose subscribers to their cable branch and their internet service gets jammed up by users hogging bandwidth.
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Corporate media cartels love Neilsen because they paint a nice rosy picture and provide detail about the demographics of viewers.
Media Cartels don’t care about the content, they care about who’s watching the ads. A raw count from cable boxes won’t tell them how many wealthy housewives are watching shampoo ads.
Flyers, Phillies, Union, Eagles, Phantoms, Wings.
Lavy
Is it just me or is that one article very pessimistic? I for one, didn’t like how he handled his goalies last season. I just don’t see a team that has quit for his coach. The teams he had coached here have always seemed to have consistency issuses, and this year that should be expected.
-bob
by Rrainone on Dec 7, 2011 8:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I asked my self the same question and gave myself the same answer.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
But… But.. He wants to score goals now!!!
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Hartnell. But mostly because he will be parked in front of the net and inexplicably fall backwards into Miller with no one around.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
I’m just glad you didn’t say
#HartnellgoesdownonMiller
Because that would have led to entire day of antics.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Dec 7, 2011 11:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s dangerously close as is.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Dangerously close. Intentionally. Was hoping for precisely that reaction. Antics are fun :-)
by Georgia_Flyer on Dec 7, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Hintzy beat me to it, but yes…. this is too close for comfort
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
For Miller’s comfort or Hartnell’s?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I don’t think anyone is interested in this Fly-By.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Dec 7, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Just counting down the minutes until 7:30 tonight.
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Finally finished Part 3 of the Boogaard piece; it was really good if you are looking for something to help pass the time.
I have work to do. I just come here looking for minor distractions to help pass that tedium.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Dec 7, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Just finished it myself. There were a few parts that gave me chills, I probably won’t be able to watch a fight the same way again.
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
It’s a very good example of advocacy journalism. NYT has long had very little space for hockey, even though it used to devote three beat writers to the local teams. Olympic coverage always included columns favorably comparing that style of play versus the “fight-filled” NHL game, arguing that if the NHL cleaned up its act it could join the real sports leagues at the table and expect the same level of interest that Olympic hockey had, failing to take into consideration the structural differences between a two-week All-world tournament and a 30-team 82-game season.
The internet freed the paper from print space restrictions and it has used the Slap Shot blog to continue the effort to remove fighting from the game (as well as offer some insightful coverage of the game, especially from Stu Hackel). Even before the deaths this summer the paper was trying to use the concussion issue as a way to take on fighting. Coverage of Probert’s death accelerated this and they’ve also started assigning Alan Schwartz, the guy who took on the NFL about post-retirement concussion-related trauma.
The paper wants a ban on head shots and a ban on fighting. Its reporting starts from the position that this is the only appropriately modern and humane viewpoint and subtly casts the opposition as retro and thuggish. There was an article this week related to the winter meetings asking Bettman about fighting, in which he is quoted extensively. The league clearly wants to keep fighting in the game and is relying on the relative newness and incompleteness of the medical research to be able to say that they’re monitoring the situation and it’s too early to draw conclusions. Bettman’s quotes are going to sound like Neanderthal avoidance to the non-hockey world.
It will be interesting to see if the paper is able to use its influence on a game that has largely existed outside of its reach and interest. I haven’t been keeping up with the Toronto Globe & Mail on the concussion issue or the enforcer deaths this summer to gauge its opinion.
I love the Times and wouldn’t mind if the enforcer role goes away, but I worry that a ban on fighting would have unintended consequences which would change the game in ways that would diminish it. Furthermore, one of the things I’ve always liked about hockey is that it does exist outside the mainstream: awkward with today’s marketing/PR driven sports-as-entertainment world; athletes who seem to be more down-to-earth and embarrass us less often with their behavior away from the job; and a game that I think has the most interesting and longest learning curve, plus all the magic of taking place on ice. I hate the idea of a media bully like the NYT stepping into a space it hasn’t given a shit about for decades and telling people what they’re supposed to do. I understand that if I was in favor of corrupt politicians or criminal business interests I could be making a similar argument and that it is their job to try to address problems in all aspects of society. But I hope if the NHL does change it does so from its own collective conscience and not because of outside pressure.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Dec 7, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, you’re definitely right about their motives. I’m still undecided about where I see the role of fighting going as the game moves forward. I think if too much of the intensity in the game is taken out, it will still have negative side effects.
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
My main qualm with fighting in hockey is that there’s no sport to it. You have highly skilled game dissolve into a brawl which is entertaining in a coliseum bloodlust kinda of way but not in a combat sport kinda way – it’s just ugly, bad fighting and the novelty wears off fast.
When did it start to wear off? And calling it a novelty disrepects the guys who engage in it a sign of honor and duty. Just say your not a fan.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
That would have been funny, though. Admit it.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Also on my macho resume, I would like too include the many years spent remodeling houses, welding and working in cabinetry shops.
Cabinetry doesn’t count as macho – stick to calling it carpentry (this coming from someone who was a cabinetmaker for 5 years).
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
i carry something around that i shoplifted from a hardware store a few years ago. it’s metal and has threaded ends and a little curve and i have no idea what it’s for, probably some plumbing connector, but when I have unmanly thoughts (rom/com favorites, silly love songs, the 1-3-1 defense) I take it out of my pocket and hold it and it makes me feel more like a real guy. I recommend such a totem for all urban post-feminist males.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Dec 7, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
it’s a great stocking stuffer.
damn, let me go get the totem.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Dec 7, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
What’s a rom/com, some kinda techie gizmo?
/insert manly growling here
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
nice try. pretend you don’t know what a romantic comedy is. go find your totem.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Dec 7, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I’m married – I don’t need to pretend. I don;t get a choice.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
For the team, the coaches, the organization and the city. This is the code. It may be stupid, childish or ridiculous to you but for the most part these guys believe in it and take it seriously. In Canada it is understood and valued as part of the sport. Have you read the Boogard pieces yet. He would feel guilty if he lost fights or was turned down to fight because he felt he let everyone down. Not even a fighter, Gaustad felt shame for weeks after not fighting anyone wearing a Bruins jersey. Why is it so hard for people to see the nature of fighting in hockey and it’s place in the game and it’s history. It’s not a fad.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
IDK, I kind of like fighting in hockey, so long as it’s within the context of the play and not one of those random “this game is lifeless, wanna go?” type of agreed upon fights.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
that’s my dividing line as well. When Tootoo plowed into Miller and three guys jumped on top of him, I’m all for that. The fight 4 seconds into the Rangers game I wouldn’t miss so much. And without the arranged fights the enforcer role is probably not worth keeping, so if there are guys whose physical and mental health is at risk because they are primarily fighters then the problem is mostly sloved.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Dec 7, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, the Talbot/Carcillo fight was not my type of fight, either. It did not win them the game, as Pens fans seem to think, but was stupid at the time.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
HH there is no way to actually quantify the influence a fight has on a group of men that feel they are in battle as a group while playing a violent sport. So no I can’t say it definitely has an effect but no one can say it does not have an effect.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Whatever, it was stupid.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Well Stated!:-)
Finally got to the new chickie’s. Yum local crabfries!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Yeah, and only 1-1/2 hour wait, too!
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
We went on monday night. All crabfries no waiting. Weekend nights I’m sure are different. There isnt a lot of places to eat around there, even the longhorn is an hour on sat night
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
there is no way to actually quantify the influence a fight has
A decisive fight win is worth 0.08 goals.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
The irony of coaching short tenures is the advanced metrics many may shun is something that may improve their job security by demonstrating just how much of the game ups and downs are due to due randomness . Then again you can’t fire the players when GM’s are looking for ACCOUNTABILITY.
Although my issues with Lavy have to due with fatigue management which is awfully hard to prove without inside information.
Running Ryan Miller
While I don’t want to see any goalie get run, especially ours, I wonder if Lucic would have tried that against the Flyers or even the Pengoons…
Especially with pronger on the ice. Pronger might have eaten Lucic.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
…after Hartnell went down on Miller.
#BSHBeforeDark
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
#BSHBeforeDark
Oh, it’s on now.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
And G had cocked his stick
/stole that from a Panotch tweet the other night, I’m not original today
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
He was ready to unload a shot?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
He was deep in the slot.
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
Oh, I don’t doubt that he scored.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
(…for a case of Tastykakes.)
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
You think Lucic is afraid of Jody Shelley? Or Zac Rinaldo?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Certainly. But he still asks the question before saying “especially with Pronger on the ice.”
I left out the “especially”, and went with why he’s asking the question. I know the answer to “Do you think Lucic is afraid of Chris Pronger?”
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Just like I did with Pardini, I responded to the first half of your comment, ignoring the second half.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
the better question is would Lucic do that with pronger on the ice..
Lucic is a very big boy. People are underestimating him
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that people are underestimating Lucic, but I think a lot of people are under the impression that everybody in the NHL is afraid of the Flyers and/or Chris Pronger, preventing them from doing things like that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t think there was much deterrence in the NHL to begin with, if at all
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you and I agree on that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I will say this – if ever there was a deterrant, it would be our boy, BSC. Not Girly-name, who only drops the gloves with other non-hockey-playing people heavyweights. But BSC, man, you’re not sure if he’ll take off his skates and cut you down or not.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, the retaliation is always the penalty that gets called. I’m with Geoff and CCB, there’s no deterrent.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
As I said to CCB, if Rinaldo doesn’t see penalties as a deterrent to his actions, that’s irrelevant. He scares the crap outta me, and I’m just watching on TV.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Huh? I thought we were talking about there being a deterrent to Lucic running the goalie against the Flyers.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Still are – my contention is that BSC is that looney. He intimidates me even though I’m obviously not within his sphere of entropy. I think Lucic might think twice about running Bryz or Bob when he considers that BSC may have boxcutters in his waistband.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
No one has reason to be afraid of BSC.
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
let me clarify: no one has reason to be afraid because he is being called for any sort of penalty. That isn’t fair at all, but if I were in someone else’s shoes whose below the radar, I’d mess with Rinaldo every chance i got
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
See, that would be true if it appeared HE CARED. It doesn’t – he leads the league and hasn’t done anything to stop the accumulation of more penalty minutes (although that may entail a lobotomy). If he’s thinking, “So what if I get two for unsportsmanlike conduct, five for spearing, five for slashing, ten for misconduct, and a personal greeting from the legend Brendan Shanahan?” then continuing to call penalties on him just for dressing doesn’t matter.
Frankly, I’d rather see Harry Z on the ice. It’s all semantic to me.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
He hasn’t done anything to stop the accumulation? He has four straight games without a minor penalty. Progress? I don’t know.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
i know what I’ll be looking at tonight
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
THAT my friend, is luck defined. No penalties in a whopping 26:47 of ice time? Give that kid the Selke.
Oh, and while he had no MINOR penalties, he did have that 5 minute major for fighting 4 seconds into the NYR game, so your statement (while true) is misleading. That’s still a PIM/60 of 11.54 in the last four games.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
So even when he goes four games without a minor, you continue to say he hasn’t done anything to stop the accumulation of more penalty minutes. How do you know he’s been lucky instead of avoiding taking runs that would result in penalties?
Further, you say it’s misleading, I say the fact that I went out of my way to specify “without a minor penalty” makes people wonder about the majors.
Lastly, all I care about with Rinaldo are his penalties that put the team a man down. If you want to use his fighting majors as a negative, go right ahead. But I fail to see how those five minutes hurt the team, thus how they are relevant.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
They aren’t relevant – which is the whole argument against fighting in hockey.
If your intention was to say ‘without a penalty’ you would have, eh? You sure you’re not running for office somewhere??? That kind of double-blind speak is what gets people to believe in WMDs in Iraq and Iranian terror plots. (“We have no proof they aren’t harboring terrorists, because we asked and they refused to answer!”)
And lastly, how do you know he HASN’T been lucky not to get a penalty? I seem to remember the (admittedly homer) announcers saying at one point in the last couple games that BSC ‘got away with one there’.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
This thread has been raised to threat level Red
…is what gets people to believe in WMDs in Iraq and Iranian terror plots

:-)
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Dec 7, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
You should modify that for the Rinaldo scale – ranging from ‘in fight on ice’ at the top to ‘in press box on suspension’ at the bottom.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
I’m sorry that I’m too clear and precise that you think I’m hiding something. I said four games without a minor penalty, and that’s somehow misleading because he has a major? And that’s somehow similar to double-blind speak? I said a 100% true statement, unlike your awful examples.
Lastly, this all started when I questioned your absolute statement that “hasn’t done anything to stop the accumulation” of penalty minutes. Since you’re the one who made the statement, and you’re the one who said the only reason he has stopped accumulating – in your words – relevant penalties is luck, it’s not on me to prove it’s falsehood. It’s on you to prove it’s truth.
Russell’s Teapot and whatnot.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 8, 2011 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
I counter your Russell’s Teapot with Schroedinger’s Cat.
As I said, you were correct that he went four games without a minor – but to a casual reader, that would imply four games without ANY penalty, which is patently not true. Yes, Mr. Dirty-nasty-lawyer, your statement was true. However, the implication was not.
And with last nights’ performance, his PIM/60 over the last five games is raised to 21.8 – not really progress over his to-date season average of 41.1 PIM/60. It’s just that he hasn’t been hit with a misconduct lately. There’s the proof.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 8, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, when someone says “four games without a minor penalty”, that implies to me that he probably had a major penalty, or the person would’ve just said “four games without a penalty.”
Consider:
“It’s been ten years since I had a car accident where I was at fault.”
“I haven’t slept in my own bed in two days.”
“We’ve gone two months without a major rainstorm.”
Don’t you assume from these statements that I had a car accident that wasn’t my fault, that I slept somewhere other than my bed, and that there has been some drizzle?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
No – but then I’m not a lawyer. The first, perhaps. The second, my immediate impression is that you haven’t slept – incorrect or not. The third, while you understand the fact that drizzle may or may not have happened, your immediate impression is that of drought. No? Am I not as much of a cynic as I thought?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 8, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Russell’s Teapot and whatnot.
I believe you mean “Crosby is a vampire and whatnot”, no?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
09:58
Rinaldo, 2 min, Holding the Stick
10:16
Power Play – Ville Leino (3), Snap Shot. Assist: Kassian, Adam
I rest my case. (And you jinxed him.)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 8, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
Blame Whyno
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 8, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
I blame Lavvy for giving him ice time.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 8, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Clarification:
Pronger is 6’6 220
Lucic is 6’4 223
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Reach? Very important stat when throwing around numbers.
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
If Pronger was in his Mid 20’s Late 20s again, sure
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, age is not of much importance. Accumulated damage over time, though, could be correlated to age, but there are plenty of older fighters who either more luck, more technique, or better management who have not accumulated much damage.
We know Pronger has accumulated lots of damage.
Reach is still important. Plus, anyone with power has, as they say, a puncher’s chance.
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
who had*
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
I think ‘have’ was correct there, since ‘older fighters’ is plural.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Could be either, really. I was thinking “who had” as in “fighters who had ‘x’ over the course of their careers,” whereas “fighters who have ‘x’ tend to…” is more of a general statement.
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
The cons heavily outweigh any sort of Pros there are to pronger fighting
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t arguing that.
Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.
- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)
I know. But arguing reach is important relative to the players. It wasn’t fight x and fighter y, but names to both players.
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Pronger isn’t afraid to throw and cheap shot. And is old school in the fact that he probably wouldn’t throw it at Lucic but could should target Bergeron or someone else smaller with a strong voice in the locker room.
That is how player policing is supposed to work. It is it not Pronger getting Lucic it is Pronger getting Bergeron and then Bergeron getting on Lucic for crossing the line causing him to become victim of a Pronger Booyah elbow.
That is how is supposed to work. The rules don’t allow it do anymore and as a result the play in the league is dirtier than ever.
Talbot 5 Nodl 0 11/7/2011
So the way it’s supposed to work is peer pressure by star players telling bruisers to stop doing what keeps them employed in the NHL after star players get hurt?
Yeah, I’ll go with the system as it is and stay away from injured stars telling big guys to stop being mean.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Let me share with you a story from Bundy told on the radio
Now I forget some of the principle names but there was a kid on the Rangers who got called up to the NHL after the Rangers had already made the playoffs. He was taking runs at everyone on the Flyers roster during a game including and almost exclusively the star players on that team. Craig Berube skated over to the Rangers bench after one of the hits and told Brian Leech that if he didn’t settle the kid down, Berube was going to drag his ass to center ice and beat the shit out of him in front of 19,000+ people at MSG. The kid did not throw a check for the rest of the game.
I’m no arguing either of your points. I’m just saying that is how policing is supposed to work to me.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Dec 7, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
I’m glad you aren’t arguing either way, since the two are not mutually exclusive.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just saying I’m not getting in between you two I just thought that story was awesome.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Dec 8, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Really? I don’t think Pronger is nearly as tough as everyone says, and Lucic would wipe the floor with him.
I'm kind of a dick.
It’d be more even if Pronger was in his prime
I don't normally read stats, but when I do, the names Detweiller, Eric or Don are involved.
Stay educated, my friends
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 7, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
BERNIE!!!!!!!!
He’s playing in the alumni game! Thank jeebus!
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Dec 7, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Doubtful, certainly not reliable, this is the same source that discusses current Flyers' injuries.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
by Bud in TN on Dec 7, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Save % ?
They have save % for 1974? Or someone tried to figure it out from boxscores?
He led the Flyers to their first Stanley Cup in 1974, posting a record of 47-13-12 record, a 1.89 goals against average and .933 save percentage during the regular season.
by Georgia_Flyer on Dec 7, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Neither hockey-reference nor hockeydb have save percentages for Parent in 74. He also had a 0.918 in 75, according to hockeydb, both of which seem exceptionally high.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
I thought I remembered reading here (probably an Eric post) that Save % wasn’t kept in those days. Be pretty awesome to go back and see some old-timey values though, like Sawchuk or Plante or T. Esposito or Bernie or Dryden etc.
by Georgia_Flyer on Dec 7, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t think it was. This is all a surprise to me.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
HockeyDB
Has Sv% for some years for the players I noted above. For Sawchuk, they have Sv% for the 50’s through the 60’s. Then there are holes for the 70’s. Dryden has a few entries, for 74 to 75. Esposito has it listed for 71, 75 and 76, then early 80’s till he retired.
Looks like was probably submitted to them by folks who tried to be enterprising, given the spotty nature of the data. Maybe the site masters wanted supporting data and got it, or they wouldn’t put the numbers in? Who knows…
by Georgia_Flyer on Dec 7, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, probably.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
I believe those kind of stats were tracked, but not archived by the NHL, so people have to dig up old NHL stat sheets and stuff.
Mike Weber Pressbox Incarceration Status: Transferred to IR Jail.
This would not be hard to calculate. They did keep shots at the time (and have as far as I can remember).
However, the trick part would not be completing the shot percentage but believing that the shot totals were accurate.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
For Ben and those with Latvian Love
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=605237
My initial response was, "I hate you so much right now" but I changed it.
by DLJr on Oct 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT
Schenn is a bust comments to commence in 5…4…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Get rid of him and Dom Brown too while you are at it
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
In all honesty, am I the only one that thinks he could use some time to mature? His attempts to dominate play (that is, carry the puck into the zone all by his lonesome) seem to demonstrate a certain immaturity – he doesn’t recognize that his teammates are top performers as well, and he REALLY doesn’t recognize that the opponents are.
I did feel this way before the most recent developments, just to be clear. Every time he got the puck in the last game, he tried to skate it in himself. He was moderately successful, I give him credit – but imagine gaining the blue line and then PASSING to the wide open trailing forward …
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Eric, does this match the zone entry data?
I notice Voracek skating in by himself an awful lot, and not always successful. So I wonder if the difference is that Schenn is a rookie who hasn’t adjusted to where NHL defenses play him yet.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
He’s only brought the puck into the offensive zone 11 times. Probably not enough to say one way or the other, but since you asked…
Schenn has carried the puck in 6 times, passed it in once, dumped it in once, and deflected it in three times. That means 7 of his 11 entries were controlled entries (64%), which is above average for a forward but not extreme. The dump-in number is low, but easily within the noise on such a small sample.
His six carry-ins generated five unblocked shots, which is a very good ratio. Actually, five shots on seven controlled entries gives him the highest shots per controlled entry of any forward.
So my real answer is that I’m hesitant to say much about a sample size of 11, but the data doesn’t suggest he’s being unusually aggressive or unsuccessful with his entries.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Thanks.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps I was watching Schenn more closely than Voracek. It also felt to me (purely my gut reaction) that Voracek passed once he entered the zone, while (as the stats indicate) Schenn went to the net solo. I would argue that carrying the puck in and going directly to the net (without stopping, passing, or anything else) is great when you’re on the breakaway, but demonstrates a certain ‘ego’ in Schenn that doesn’t match his output from those shots. (And if someone wants to disprove me by looking at shot quality, please do.) Not looking for help is something that young players who have always outplayed their competition do – just look at Crybaby in his first NHL games – but needs to be broken out of them to make them really effective players. JVR is still learning this to some degree in fact – a lot of his memorable plays in the playoffs were solo efforts at driving the net. While that approach is not to be abandoned entirely, even the best players should remember that is they can deke the two defensemen on them, that probably means there’s an open forward somewhere with a great shot available.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
How in the world do you have this data?
by mantis toboggan on Dec 7, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Does more than one person do it, and then they compile it? I feel like it would take one person hours to do this each game.
by mantis toboggan on Dec 7, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yup.
I’m a bit behind.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
No way, Eric and Geoff never watch games!
by hebrew hammer on Dec 7, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the funny thing about “advanced stats” they all come from watching, recording, then doing simple math.
Well the only thing that’s simple mathematically is the computation, the underlying concepts of statistics are often counter-intuitive and difficult to grasp even for people whose field of study demand it. Medicine for example. Doctors are notorious for misunderstanding and misapplying medical statistics. I betcha 70% of the doctors who have a copy of JAMA in the waiting room, put it out there for show.
Well I’m not talking about statistical analysis, I’m talking about what are referred to as the advanced stats, or non-traditional stats, in hockey. Corsi, Fenwick, Corsi Rel QoC, etc. You can do advanced statistical analysis with goals, assists, +/- just as much as you could with the non-traditional stats. I was just calling them advanced stats here to further exaggerate the difference between perception and reality.
ah. no worries.
BTW, I have a solution for that problem for between perception and reality that has been plaguing mankind for…well..ever.

The tesla coil powered Statgazer.
I think the cherry console is a nice touch.
Fair enough – I’ll buy that conclusion.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/frequentflyers/JVR-back-Who-sits.html
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Dec 7, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
So, that BSH radio died, eh?
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Travis killed it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 7, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I am so sad.
See if I ever generate a list of questions for you guys again.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
two noncausal
—––caucasian
casualties———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
word—————
= 
¯¯¯¯¯¯
–—association——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Cracks in the damn….
Crosby will sit out two games because he felt funny after being hit.
Goddamnit this just pisses me off because of Primeau and Lindros.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
No Way!
Man if this turns into more then a bump in the road then susceptibility becomes more of a DNA thing then a contact thing.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Wow. 13-11-1 when they brought Lavy in. For some reason, I remember them being so much worse at that point.
Exactly! But even in winning the team seemed off, even disorganized.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

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