Wednesday Morning Fly By: A Good Night Off
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 6:01 AM EST
in Morning Fly By
Email
Print
Today's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- The Eastern Conference's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th overall teams lost last night. Awesome. (s/t Ben Rothenberg)
- Recapping the 2006 Draft for the Flyers: [Hockey's Future]
- Continuing on the 4th line theme from yesterday, the Flyers have been getting great work from their PK lately: [Philly Sports Daily]
- And Jody Shelley is handling being a healthy scratch like a pro. From him: "You realize that there’s more to your role than whatever you do on the ice. There’s a role as a player, as a personality and in locker room. You try to at least bring a positive attitude every day. It’s part of being a team, though." [Philly Sports Daily]
- Ville Leino is confident that he'll sign a contract soon: [The700Level.com]
- Andrei Popov was named 2nd star of the month for his team: [euroflyers]
- With a prolonged layoff, Anthony SanFilippo looks at odd stats from the Flyers so far: [In The Room]
- File under "Teemu needs to explain": Jakub Kovar signed an extension with his Czech team, for an unknown length: [euroflyers]
- NHL Power Rankings for Week 19: [SBNation.com]
- The League of Extraordinary Statisticians look at The Awards: [Behind The Net]
- An inside look at how the Lightning were re-branded: [icethetics]
- The Islanders saw their 4th goalie since Dwayne Roloson play last night due to injuries. Yes, they have goaltending issues: [Puck Daddy]
- Matt Cooke laid another dirty hit. Shocking, I know: [Puck Daddy]
- Inside Gary Bettman's Super Bowl party: [Down Goes Brown]
- Lastly, the BSH Open Ice game has finalized details. Check them out: [BSH]
590 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
So…you know how the season tickets Meet the Players thing was a few days ago? Did anyone get to meet Carcillo? If so, please enlighten me
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
I wasn’t there but I here he showed up naked and was offering to take young, but legal, impressionable women out on dates. Oh well!
Just Call Me "M"!
Pronger’s guacamole…another DGB masterpiece.
Training for the Phillies 5K Run on March 26th. Hoping I don't embarrass myself :-)
by LeepinLizardz on Feb 9, 2011 8:22 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I might be an asshole for saying this, but I wish someone would put Cooke on a stretcher in the near future. He is going to end up killing someone one day.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
That Cooke hit was horrible…. he didn’t even try and stop… he’s ruined Savard’s season (and possibly career) and just keeps getting away with these dirty hits. Sadly, it might take a serious injury to a player for him to realize how dirty his hits actually are. Or he can be seriously injured by a dirty hit and his career be ruined (and I’m normally not a mean person/wishing ill-will on anyone except he’s a repeat offender).
I don’t think he’d “get it” even if he was on the receiving end of a hit like he regularly dishes out and had to be taken off on a stretcher. He’d bitch about the dirty hit and then go after the guy that hit him for revenge the second he got a chance. The league won’t come down hard on him, and Bylsma defends him after every one of these hits, so I honestly don’t see him ever “getting it.” The system continues to let him live in a little dream world where this type of shit is acceptable.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
He got knocked out and taken off on a stretcher by Evander Kane last year, it doesn’t seem like that slowed him down.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
I think he has been better than he was in Vancouver, but he is still a dirty player. When something has been part of your game for so long, I’d imagine it’s tough to change. That said, I can’t stand him. It’s a shame too, because I really think he has become a valuable player, and not just as a pest. He doesn’t really need that dirty part of his game any more.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Penguins coach Dan Bylsma said that Tyutin looked Cooke “right in the eyes” and knew the hit was coming.
What is Bylsma trying to imply. I really like Bylsma, but I don’t like this at all. Anyone have the direct quote from him? I don’t like coaches justifying dirty hits in anyway. Just say I haven’t had a chance to watch it yet, or something if you don’t want to call out your player.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I watched the hit in the Puck Daddy article, it didn’t look like Tyutin looked behind him at Cooke, just a hard check into the boards by Cooke. However, I haven’t watched the clip again, so I might have missed Tyutin looking behind him.
I think Tyutin looks over his shoulder when he changed as he approached the goal line, and at that point, Matt Cooke was already making his approach. He wasn’t making strides to accelerate further, but he was closing so fast he didn’t need to. Then it looks to me like Cooke might have been in his peripheral vision as he was turned the corner. I don’t see anything in that video that looks like true eye contact, and I went through it as close to frame by frame as I could.
I don’t get what Bylsma is saying, he is trying to imply that because it wasn’t a blindside hit, it wasn’t a dirty hit? He got a 5 minute major for charging, so he shouldn’t be acting like it was a legal hit! Is it because Crosby is trying to shine more attention on head shots, that Bylsma is trying to make sure this one does not get included in that discussion?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
I think Bylsma is trying not to throw his own guy under the bus, but he just did it in a poorly worded way.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I agree with your conclusion in the first paragraph 100%.
Even if Tyutin did make solid eye contact with Cooke and turn towards the boards, so the eff what? Players do that all the time. It’s a way of protecting yourself or drawling a penalty. Cooke still needed to not throw that hit and no matter how a player is facing he needs to not leave his feet. I just don’t get that quote at all.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
I’m glad you understood that first paragraph, because I messed up so bad as edited it that I dropped entire words…. But as I rewatch it, Tyutin seems to try to play the puck in a hurry, just pushing it a little further up because he knew the check was coming. What was he supposed to do, just back off and leave the puck there untouched so he wouldn’t get hit, and let Cooke swoop in and try to steal it at the boards? Even if he did just leave the puck unplayed, Cooke still may have shifted direction slightly to make sure he still laid a hit on him.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
You can look a guy in the eye right before he is about to shoot you, doesn’t make it right. I agree, I am a fan of Bylsma but that comment is so off base that I am not sure even he believes it.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
That’s why I’d like to find the full quote.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
“The player looked him right in the eyes and knows he’s coming — he makes sure that he keeps his numbers towards him.”
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 9, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
It does not MATTER. He was hit from behind. Cooke left his feet before the hit.
If the league is going to take a stance on these types of hit, then they need to do it. Period. End of discussion. The fact that they screw around like they do means they are not serious. They have no real intention to carry out their rules in an impartial manner. In the video that came out last year before the playoffs this type of hit was clearly ruled as illegal and punishable by suspension. Time to do it right and by the book, or get rid of the instigator rule and let the players go back to governing themselves.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
Good call, Mike. I was thinking the same thing. If someone leaves their feet to hit someone up high, there’s an intent to injure…not just to knock the guy off the puck.
by IG on Feb 9, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure why this is in response to me since I’m looking for Bylsma’s quote…but I agree.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I agree. They need to have a zero tolerance enforcement policy. Illegal hit = supsension for x amount of games, regardless of past history or not. And add fines or whatever to each subsequent suspension or something to maybe deter more.
Or get rid of the instigator rule so the players can beat Cooke’s ass to a pulp every time he lays one of these hits.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
I think past history should matter, such that the length of suspension increases for repeat offenders, as a greater deterrent. What should not be factored in is whether the player on the receiving end was injured or not. Dangerous is dangerous, regardless of whether the guy was sent to the hospital or was lucky and got off with a few bruises.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Yeah I think I didn’t think thoroughly enough before I hit “post”. I was thinking about some players that have dirty hits and don’t get suspended or fight at the end of a playoff game and don’t get a suspension (cough cough Malkin’s ugly cough cough).
I think that the suspension for a dirty hit should be x amount of games initially, regardless if you have been a previous offender or not, and it should be larger if you have been suspended before. For example, it should be something like a 5 game suspension for a bad hit (and i agree with you injury or not it should be suspendable), and add say 2 games to the length for each previous offense you have had. That may deter players more.
We’re in agreement here. The hits need to be enforced better. Period.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
How did he look him “right in the eyes”? Is Tyutin secretly an owl? Cooke hit him square in the numbers, there’s no way Tyutin’s neck can turn that far to look him in the eye. I usually like Bylsma, but his defense of Cooke after this and the coughcough"skate clip"coughcough with Ovechkin are disgusting.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Well, all coaches have to defend their players. Even Stevens had to defend Downie and Whats his face that tried to behead Kessler.
Samesis
I just wish they would stick to the I haven’t seen the replay yet BS.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
How did he look him "right in the eyes"?
Eyes in the back of his head…duh.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Yeah, a coworker and I were discussing that and he informed me of Tyutin’s off-season surgery to have those put in. My bad.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
That was clearly a dirty hit. That Dan Bylsma would defend it is abysmal. Moreover, why does the supplemental discipline have to wait unti Thursday? If he wore orange and black the hearing would be right now. If his name was Downie he’d be gone for 10 games.
Thats not being an Arsehole. Thats Karma. I tend to agree. You reap what you sow.
It is not a Coincidence that Scott Stevens ended his career with a concussion after a severe blow by someone else.
What goes around comes around.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
there was another situation,not as bad mind you, with cooke that occured in fridays game against buffalo. He was in a fight/scrum with a buffalo player, they both went down with a ref ontop of them. cooke proceeds to get out from under the ref, then jump on top of the ref throwing haymakers at the buffalo player (who is pinned ,i believe, face-down by the ref). it was the pitt broadcast so of course they saw nothing wrong with this. Just cooke being cooke.
Better than that, I’ve always said you injure a guy, you’re out as long as he is PLUS your suspension. For Cooke, after the last two games and two dirty hits, the league should have made an example of him and just threw him out for the remainder of the season. Until someone gets seriously suspended and has his lively hood taken away in a manner that will send a message to him and any other dirty players that it’s just not ok to do these types of things, this kind of crap will never end.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
THIS!
I never thought of that before, keeping the guy out for as long as the injured person is. If you land a dirty hit it’s totally fair. So if he hits someone and ends their career, he ends his. I wish he’d get suspended for the rest of the season but maybe there is some favoritism since he plays for the Penguins. How much do you want to bet if he was a Flyer he would have gotten a 20 or 25 game suspension by this point in the season.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Feb 10, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately I don’t think he got any consideration because he’s a Pen or anything; I just think the league has no clue what they are doing. Talking about taking head/injury causing hits out of the game, and when given the perfect opportunity with a player who clearly has no concern for others to send a clear message of “no more of this”, he gets four games. Ridiculous.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on Feb 10, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
Favoritism, blah, blah, blah. Getting so tired of hearing about that. We just sound like sore losers whenever that excuse is brought up, in any situation. Unless there are numbers to back it up, it just sounds like whining. And then, we’re no better than Penguins fans, and we don’t want that to happen. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Better than that, I’ve always said you injure a guy, you’re out as long as he is PLUS your suspension.
the league should have made an example of him and just threw him out for the remainder of the season.
Both of these claims are pretty ridiculous. The first is just an awful theory of justice, the second (from what we’re hearing about no super-suspensions) is not legal by the current CBA. Either way, the NHLPA will block either of these from ever becoming the case.
The second is legal, it just requires a formal hearing. There’s nothing in the CBA limiting the duration of a suspension, and it explicity allows for permanent suspension in the case of substance abuse. However, any suspension exceeding five games requires a formal hearing. It can be appealed to the Commissioner, but the player remains suspended until after the Commissioner’s decision.
And if the second weren’t legal, the Islanders couldn’t suspend Nabokov for the rest of the season, because that’s technically a team-imposed behavior suspension under the CBA, which follows most of the same rules as a league-imposed suspension.
Bob.
So you injure a guy badly, and he’s out for 20-30 games on an obvious boarding call that you could have easily avoided. You might get a 5 minute major in the game. Might. If the league actually does anything you get a few games of suspension. What is the reason you just don’t do it again? It hurts your opponents and you are back in a week. When you have a player who is clearly not concerned with anything other than himself, he is a detriment to his team and the league, why keep him around?
In the latest Cooke incident, as Travis (I think) pointed out, he doesn’t really apologize, just says he was glad no one was hurt, and that he has already adjusted his game over the new rules. In other words, what’s wrong with skating towards a guy for 20 feet looking at his numbers and checking him into the boards? It’s all about him. If he injures someone else to the point they lose their career, why is allow to continue playing? As I stated above, until someone is actually held accountable for their actions—and I’m talking egregious here, not some little hit—why will hockey get better? The level of respect is already going in the wrong direction, so where does it end?
So take that incident and put it in this light. Tyutin is injured, broke his collar bone. He’s out for 8 weeks. Now Matt Cooke can’t play for 8 weeks. Doesn’t get paid. Teammates are all pissed at him for such a stupid hit (which I hope they are anyway, but not holding my breath). Coach is annoyed. When he comes back, do you think he will go out and cheap shot someone? Cause I think he’d probably get the point after that.
And since it’s a “awful theory of justice”, what is a better one? Cause what the league does now is a joke. Make a BJ sign on the ice, get a game. Head hunt a guy get 4. Really? That’s the best we’ve got? If it is, nothing will ever change. Head shots will abound, and a$$h*les like Gillies will yell at guys they just threw a blindside elbow into the glass at like he should pop up and get back in the game. Completely weak.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on Feb 12, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Two things: 1) You get what happened in the Pens/Isles game afterwards. Do you think Max Talbot will run Blake Comeau again? Maybe, but he knows what’s coming.
2) Why would owners adopt a rule that takes their players off the ice? Everybody wants people punished for 20-30 games when Briere gets hurt, but if Briere hurts somebody, Ed Snider isn’t going to be calling for an example to be made out of him. All 30 NHL owners know this, so it will never happen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 12, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
To reply:
1. I don’t really think Talbot got anything that bad. Guy landed one punch maybe, and then he turtled. That’s not really what I’d consider payback, but maybe it’s the thought that counts. I think of payback as what MacT did to Bureau after he almost killed Svoboda. That guy got beat down.
2. And thus cheap shots/bad (but avoidable) hits in hockey will never end. No responsibility = no reason to stop. And I understand policing on the ice, and the code and all that; it’s sad to say but someone is going to get severely injured one of these days.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on Feb 13, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
And in your last sentence on #1 there, the “maybe” says it all.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on Feb 13, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Talbot may not have gotten anything bad, but he got in three fights. The sucker punch, the one after Tangradi got jumped, and then the one along the boards in front of the penalty box. The Isles kept going after him.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
Shelley is a real man. Like him or not, argue for or against his role on the team. He is well aware of how the game is played on and off the ice and you have to respect him for being a team guy. This is how a quality heavyweight operates.
Just Call Me "M"!
I threw it in there for you, M.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
The fact that Matt Cooke Left his feet in a leaping hit shows that he is overly aggressive and should be suspended. That was dirty. Now if he does like Pronger, Checks him and holds onto the guy as he rides him into the boards. That is the safer way to deliver a bone crunching check while protecting the player (and respecting the player and the game).
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
His attitude is probably going to get him one of the those players awards, Yanick Dupre or something selected by the Flyers players.
And having him on the roster this year will earn the Flyers Home ice advantage through the playoffs.
/I threw that in there for Geoff/
Just Call Me "M"!
Thems the facts.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
No, you have to get twitter followers to get those things.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
by hintzy64 on Feb 9, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shelley is overpaid - hence the comments below
Jody Shelley has accepted his new role
as a Multi Million Dollar Cheerleader and luggage bag boy. " Ready ? Ok ! Go Team Go ! Fight ! Don’t just sit there and be a blob ! Fight !"
Missing Teeth, cuts and scars with bruises on his face and head, Hairy Legs in a skirt and black and white shoes with bobby socks, Flyers Jersey and Orange and black pom poms with a helmet.
Thats what you pictured ?
Whenever Richards scores he yells "Ohhh Mikey your so fine ! your so fine ! you blow my mind ! Hey Mikey !"
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
“You realize that there’s more to your role than whatever you do on the ice. There’s a role as a player, as a personality and in locker room. You try to at least bring a positive attitude every day. It’s part of being a team, though.”
Off-ice qualities? What is Jody talking about? Somebody get me his Corsi, Fenwick, & Fetzer valve scores please.
The nerve of the guy…
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
So he can be more valuable not dressing, still have his presence there, and then dress a better player in Carcillo instead, right?
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Are Carcillo’s Fetzer scores higher than Shelley’s?
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
Fletch reference…I watched it a few days ago
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
Well, as you are aware, it’s all ball-bearings nowadays.
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
More so the whole Shelley versus Carcillo thing. I thought you argued for Shelley because of his presence in the locker room. If you can still have that, and dress a better player, why wouldn’t you take it.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Carcillo on the ice and Shelley in the lockey room? Sure, why not. And if Laviolette wants to rotate those two players, that’s fine with me too.
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
What's a Fetzer-Valve?
Is that like a sphincter?
Sorry. My inner 7-yr old took over the keyboard for a sec. Greetings from Pittsburgh. Can we trade you guys Cooke for Carcillo? There are a few guys on our team who would beat the snot out of Cooke if he played for someone else in the division. I can’t believe nobody else has done it yet.
Cooke is a better player, and I can’t for the life of me understand why he continues to do this given how valuable he has become.
Cooke won’t fight unless he has an advantage or is taking a better or equal players off the ice with him.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Reposted
The fact that Matt Cooke Left his feet in a leaping hit shows that he is overly aggressive and should be suspended. That was dirty. Now if he does like Pronger, Checks him and holds onto the guy as he rides him into the boards. That is the safer way to deliver a bone crunching check while protecting the player (and respecting the player and the game).
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
What does this have to do with my comment?
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I think it’s a response to something I wrote below maybe, but even that, it’s just agreeing with what I said, so I’m still not sure where it belongs.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
sometimes you post something and it goes several layers below where you want it to be.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
The internet is a fickle mistress.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I view Cooke and Carcillo the exact same, but Cooke is a great penalty killer. So its still an upgrade. And besides, I highly doubt Carcillo wants to come back here anyway after how we treated him this year.
Samesis
My only problem is that Cooke is one of – if not – the dirtiest player in the league. Great PKer or not, I don’t want that guy on my team.
If he can stop being an ass, sure. He’s a better role player. But until he stops being dangerous, I’ll stay away.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yea, definitely don’t want Cooke. I kind of like him on the Pens because when their fans talk about how dirty the Flyers are I like to ask them about Malkin’s slew footing and Cooke in general. The Flyers really don’t even have any goons on the roster…Carcillo plays hard, and Shelley is a fighter, but when I think goon I think dirty player.
Though, we always have Briere and hartnell for stupid penalties.
Defending Carter until 2021...
Hahaha, like that time Hartnell got burned on a breakaway and threw his stick to knock the puck away as the guy blew past him? That was hilarious. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Id take Carbomb over Cook any day of the week!
Carbomb may lose himself in the emotion of the game and so something stupid from time to time
Cooke just becomes dirty in the intensity of a game.
The difference is that you are aware of what your doing when you do something dirty. You may not normally do that action i your normal day to day lives but in the heat of the moment you justify that it is ok to take that action. This is a deep seeded choice and rooted into the core of ones personality.
Doing something stupid is simply when in the heat of the moment you cant mentally keep up at times and you stop thinking at the extreme pace the situation demands, ad you do something dumb. Its fustrating and dangerous, but it is forgivable ad more importantly can be improved with work and proper guidance
Cooke might have better talent, but he has proven to me that in the moment in life that truly cout, he will consciously chose to act without integrity or honor
I know fighting doesn’t exactly show you how “honourable” a player is, but I’d consider it a way of at least being accountable for your actions.
Matt Cooke has been in the league 13 seasons and has 21 fights.
Sean Avery has been in the league 12 seasons and has 72 fights.
Those numbers really surprise me.
Mourning Gagne forever.
Cooke might have better talent, but he has proven to me that in the moment in life that truly cout, he will consciously chose to act without integrity or honor
So, you wouldn’t want him to come on a hiking expedition with you. But why wouldn’t you want him representing your hockey team? Habitually unethical is habitually unethical, whether caused by a hot head or a cold demeanor.
You can fix players from habitually making dumb plays as long as you dont have a dirty player on your team
Having cooke on a team would cause players like carbomb to regress
Well you would have Cooke instead of Carbomb. But regardless, what if the player has a problem, and the hot head is a permanent problem just like the cold demeanor…
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Depends if I am playing armchair coach or GM
A loud hot heat who flips over small things might seem like a problem for a group dynamic
However surface issues can be solved or accepted a lot more easily by the group.
Same is true for cold demetors.
Players dont have to be best friends, and can even fight in the lockeroom (depending on what the fight is about) … and then when the puck drops they can instantly be a band of brothers in the trenches for 60 minutes.
Afterwards surface personality can return and rub each other the wrong way
What I would not want is a subtle underlying personality trait of a player to negatively influence the growth of the group from the direction I wanted it to go towards.. I
He is dirty, but do you think that hypothetically Lavi could turn him around? I think he’d be the type of coach to bench him if he does some bad antics.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
If Lavy wasted extra valuable time with him and he had a live in Councilor/Therapist ????
….but even then, most of the work would have to be done on the off season
13 season in, he would resist the program
Id guess it would end in a complete and utter failed attempt
NO
I’m assuming you’re “Yep” is sarcastic?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
No, I think Cooke is a superior player. I still don’t understand why he continues to throw the hits he does, but I think he is a fairly valuable hockey player.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Hmm. I would have thought his dirtiness and total lack of respect for other players would have negated his positives.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
Well lets just take the Shaun Kreider factor into account. You hate Cooke, thus, he must be a good player.
/jk
Samesis
I hate many people for many different reasons. I hated Fedotenko for awhile because he destroyed us but I would have wanted him back on the team.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
I liked Fedotenko because, among other things, he allowed me to see the value in players whose last names end in “enko” after the disaster that was Five Minutes of Andrei Kovalenko.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I liked Rusty too but I’m saying I hated him against us, proving that my hatred doesn’t preclude me from wanting that player on my team.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
It does, but it’s not like I’m replacing a clean player like Betts, Id be replacing Carcillo.
Cooke’s history of hits is honestly disgusting. He has turned himself in to a valuable player on the ice, and I would assume the dirty hits would stop. They seem to be less frequent though, just a couple clustered together recently. But again, my decision is, if I’m going to have a less than respectable player on the team, I think Cooke is better.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I see your point. I still don’t like him and I don’t want him. However, who knows if Jody Shelley would beat the piss out of him in practice and change his ways.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
You’re joking right?
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
He might be right, Danny would take his stick to Shelley’s head before he had his gloves off.
/joking, somewhat
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I think slashing and crosschecking are more his style.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Oh! Point taken. Yowza.
In fairness, I didn’t follow Briere when he played for Buffalo.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Well that’s just ridiculous.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe not, but it doesn’t matter what Shelley would do. If he didn’t change his ways, Lavy would never let him see the ice. Lavy doesn’t pull punches, Cooke’s behind would be in the press box until he stopped this ridiculous behavior.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
That’s true too. It might actually be good for Cooke if he was on our team. Haha.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
I see where you’re coming from, but would you really want to deal if the image problems? With our history?
I said this below, which should clarify (referring to Carcillo and Cooke):
Choice given to me, neither would be a Flyer.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Yeah, I’m going linearly through the comments.
I guess my only question: is there a cheap vs. skill breakage point? Given that most every player in the league has some trick or another, where would the line be drawn for you? Let’s say the progression is Pronger-Briere-Downie-Cooke-Carcillo.
Personally, I’d be okay with having Downie on the team, and admitting he’s dirty, as we do with Briere. Anything after that is past the breaking point.
I’d rather not have Downie, but that’s because i have what he did in Juniors stuck in my head still. But I’d tend to agree with you general thought on that one. It’s tough, because what I want is unrealistic, and I recognize that, so to draw a line is hypocritical in a sense, but it’s the only way to be realistic at the same time.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Don if have a boderline dislike for Danny B. because of his antics how you can ever defend Cooke is beyond me. The guy makes Downie look like a Lady Byng Candidate.
Read everything I say
Cooke’s history of hits is honestly disgusting. He has turned himself in to a valuable player on the ice, and I would assume the dirty hits would stop. They seem to be less frequent though, just a couple clustered together recently. But again, my decision is, if I’m going to have a less than respectable player on the team, I think Cooke is better.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
So many words! It’s easier just to flame you for saying “Cooke is better.” :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Haha, I just hate it when someone wants to catch me in a contradiction and then just takes what i said completely out of context, or changes it around to do so.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Haha, I just hate it when someone wants to catch me in a contradiction and then just takes what i said completely out of context, or changes it around to do so.
’’
You mean Lawyering?
No, Geoff just takes everything to be exactly as it is written, and refuses to read any common sense implied by a statement in to it. He also leaves himself a loop hole in everything he writes. It’s quite genius actually.
What I am referring to here is, in fact, Lanciing
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
It’s quite genius actually.
This means I don’t have to go into a diatribe about why I’m right. Thank you.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I never said you were right, I said you were smart, big difference. But save the diatribe for the road trip.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I didn’t say you said I was right.
I said I don’t have to rant about WHY I’m right.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Just as long as you know that, despite your rant about why you’re right, that you’re still wrong, I’m satisfied.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Well, you can’t get no satisfaction.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I wish that old-timey soap opera organ music would start playing automatically whenever you two get into an argument on here.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I just hate … someone
We know. It’s pretty obvious by now.
to catch me in a contradiction … just take what i said completely out of context, or change it around
If you insist.
Also, I haven’t defended him at all, I said he is the better player.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Carcillo is an agitator and besides the Bradley punch I don’t remember him ever getting in trouble for hits or anything really dangerous. Yeah Cooke is the better player but I don’t want that fuck on my team ever.
if only Carcillo will learn how to play on the PK he could earn himself a roster spot easily. Something I said over the summer.
Ok, I think Carcillo is fairly dirty, and literally loses his mind. Now you could argue that makes Cooke worse, because he is calm and calculated when he does dirty things.
But again, I never defended Cooke, just said he is the better player. And I don’t respect either’s game that much, so if it’s between two players I don’t respect, I’ll take the one that I think is superior.
Choice given to me, neither would be a Flyer. So if you could just say you jumped to an incorrect conclusion and misrepresented what I was saying, I’d appreciate it.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Choice given to me, neither would be a Flyer.
This.
So if you could just say you jumped to an incorrect conclusion and misrepresented what I was saying, I’d appreciate it.
That’s hilarious. I’ll be shocked if the day ever comes when Chris types these words and hits “post.” :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Defend was the wrong word. You didn’t defend the hit but did defend his existence in the NHL something I can not do.
You didn’t defend the hit but did defend his existence in the NHL
No I didn’t. He is in the NHL, I can’t change that, nor have I ever made mention of whether I would like players like him in or out of the game. If anything, I think I’ve implied that I’d prefer them not to exist, but I also realize that’s an unrealistic preference. So if you want me to say that me agreeing to the reality of the situation is defending him being in the NHL, then sure, why not. But again, you are just Lanciing this.
And for some of the stuff you love about Downie, like jumping players in juniors, I’m shocked you can’t get behind deplorable behavior in the NHL.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Valuable PKer IMO is defending his existence. I am not saying your wrong I just can’t personally do it.
And the Downie thing these hits are extremely dangerous worse than the Downie hit on McAmmond he did hit him in the chest with the shoulder or jumping guys. Jumping guys was part of the game until the instigator rule.
Also Downie was young 20-21 and could be forgiven. Cooke is 32 years old and I think he really tries to hurt people with that intent.
I appreciated Downie’s hatred to lose and competitive fire and emotion that he plays with. His temper has gotten to him in those situations. On the other hand Cooke is cold and calculated despite constantly being warned fined and what not.
If he doesn’t get 5 games 2 more than Danny’s high stick I would be shocked.
Valuable PKer IMO is defending his existence.
No it’s saying, Matt Cooke plays in the NHL, and he does some thing well. Read what Roenick said about him that got linked below. The guy is a good hockey player, but the guy does dirty shit. All I did was state the reality of the situation, that isn’t defending his existence in the NHL, stop Lanciing, it’s infuriating, seriously.
And about Downie, my whole point was, you clearly know through our previous discussion what types of players I’d like to see out of the league, and you should know Cooke is one of them. But since I don’t get a say, I have to discuss the reality of this situation.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Ratchuk
I always expected him to develop at some point, and it never happened. I was always very disappointed to see that since I followed him fairly closely at MSU.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
But he got Stefan Legein!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
2006 Has always been my favorite draft class, because of Nodl and Ratchuk though haha.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
2006 has been my favorite draft class because they actually had draft picks.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Friggin priceless the defense of Cooke: http://www.pensburgh.com/2011/2/9/1983553/matt-cookes-hit-on-fedor-tyutin
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
Who is defending Cooke? The post itself is saying Cooke was in the wrong. Most of the posters are saying the same thing. A lot of the people on Pensburgh are tired of defending Cooke I’ve seen them say as much.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Yeah, FrankD isn’t defending him there. He’s saying one of their announcers tried to, but then Pensburgh immediately says that’s a “hard angle to take in this debate”. Then he says that no matter which side you’re on Cooke launched himself at him and there’s no chance Tyutin didn’t go into the boards headfirst. Then most of the comments are arguing over the semantics of whether it should have been charging or boarding, but I only see like 1 or two people that don;t think Cooke was way out of line.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
This pretty much sums it up.
I honestly don’t get the argument they are trying to make. I can agree that he saw him and presented the numbers, but he didn’t suddenly turn. He clearly was playing the puck that way. Cooke wasn’t going to have a chance to play the puck either way. As one commenter there put it:
You can bitch if a guy decides to play the puck, but you absolutely cannot say "Fuck it, dude is asking for it" and just slam his face into the boards at full strength.
Rinaldo! Speaking of dirty hits, Whats he been up to?
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
OK
So what the Cooke hit looks like, to me, is the same as the Randy Jones hit a few years ago. And what I think it is is just dumb board play by the Jacket. Hes clearly making a motion towards the net when Cooke leans in, and at the last second, just stops moving and puts his face towards the glass. He tried to get cute and deck out Cooke, and got drilled, same with what Burgeon did. I don’t think a player should get suspended for another players being dumb around the boards, I said that years ago and I say it again.
Samesis
Jones didn’t leave his feet.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
I dont see Cooke leave his feet either though….I just watched both and neither Jones or Cooke left their feet. The only difference is that Burgeron was low to the ice when Jones hit him, and Tyutin was upright.
Samesis
How do you not see him leave his feet? Watch the video again, 0:41.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
I see his left leg raise, but that could be from lunging into the guy. I know when I lunge i usually put all my weight on my right leg and my left leg comes up. But leaving his feet? No, I wouldn’t say that. Now THIS is leaving the feet:
Samesis
You’re just seeing what you want to see and I can’t force you to see it any other way. Cooke doesn’t even lead with the shoulder so your argument about lunging means nothing.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
haha he leads with a pevic thrust is what it looks like. Also:
You’re just seeing what you want to see
I can say the same to you, cause you clearly dislike him, when I’m more neutral towards him. If anything, its you that sees it as dirtier cause of your feelings. But all this is besides the point that Tuytin is at fault here for having a stupid moment, just like Bergeon did. That said, the league doesnt take into account the recipients play into the decision, so my argument is weak.
Samesis
To be honest, I think Tyutin think his other Dman picked Cooke, so he has more time. By the time Cooke gets around the other Dman, Tyutin passes the puck and is immediately crushed.
As far as leaving his feet, I can’t tell if it’s before impact or follow through, but frankly it shouldn’t matter. He saw the numbers and hit him square in them. And he saw the numbers facing him since he went around the other defender. It’s dirty, and it’s not on Tyutin.
And remember, I’m usually the guy defender the “bad guys” around here, so my feelings aren’t in the way.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Its before the impact. But, before the impact or after the impact does not matter, its against the regulations to “Leave Your Skates” or leap in the air.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Like I said, I can’t tell. I’ve watched it frame by frame 6 times now, and from the angle, I can’t tell. So you saying it’s before doesn’t clear it up for me. And you can leave your feet after contact because it can be the contact that causes the player to leave their feet.
However, in this case, I’d agree that it wasn’t the contact that cause him to leave his feet, he just kind of hurled himself into Tyutin’s back.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
If it wasn’t contact that caused him to leave his feet, then it was his own momentum that caused him to leave his feet and in that case, regardless if its before or after, then it is a dirty hit because he is the one who could not control his own momentum.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Dirty isn’t always against the rules though. You just stated against the regulations, and I wanted to clarify.
No where am I trying to claim this is clean. In fact, I stated flat out that it was dirty:
And he saw the numbers facing him since he went around the other defender. It’s dirty, and it’s not on Tyutin.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Leaving your skates not due to the momentum of the hit but rather by your own momentum is against the regulations – boarding
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Boarding rule:
41.1 Boarding – A boarding penalty shall be imposed on any player or goalkeeper who checks an opponent in such a manner that causes the opponent to be thrown violently in the boards. The severity of the penalty, based upon the degree of violence of the impact with the boards, shall be at the discretion of the Referee.
There is an enormous amount of judgment involved in the application of this rule by the Referees. The onus is on the player applying the check to ensure his opponent is not in a vulnerable position and if so, he must avoid the contact. However, there is also a responsibility on the player with the puck to avoid placing himself in a dangerous and vulnerable position. This balance must be considered by the Referees when applying this rule.
Any unnecessary contact with a player playing the puck on an obvious "icing" or "off-side" play which results in that player being knocked into the boards is "boarding" and must be penalized as such. In other instances where there is no contact with the boards, it should be treated as "charging."
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
The call on the ice was charging by the way.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
You are thinking of the charging rule:
42.1 Charging – A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.
Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A "charge" may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice.
A minor, major or a major and a game misconduct shall be imposed on a player who charges a goalkeeper while the goalkeeper is within his goal crease.
A goalkeeper is not "fair game" just because he is outside the goal crease area. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an opposing player makes unnecessary contact with a goalkeeper. However, incidental contact, at the discretion of the Referee, will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
So if he jumps into a player, it’s a charge. If he hits a player and then leaves his feet, it becomes a judgment call. Was he jumping in to the player, or did the contact cause him to leave his feet. You rarely, if ever, see charging called when a player leaves his skates after contact because it’s too hard of a judgment to make in real time.
But like I said, the whole thing with Cooke leaving his feet doesn’t even matter here. And as I said, i agree with you that he seemed to hurl himself in to Tyutin, and that it wasn’t the contact that caused his skates to leave the ice.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
To be honest, You right about the leaving the skates defined in the Charging Rule, – I will give you that since I cannot dispute the rules when you have them posted above.
However, read the rules, because in both rules, Cooke could have been called for either one of those penalties for the way he hit Fedr Tyutin.
Watch how most of the times, O’Donnell, Meszaros or Pronger (because he is so tall he has to do this) – watch how they Grab ahold of a player and “Ride” them into the boards as they deliver the hard check. that way their is no Injuries.
What you just did by posting the rules, was help prove that Cooke’s check was Illegal.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
What you just did by posting the rules, was help prove that Cooke’s check was Illegal.
Where I am saying it’s not? I’m so confused why you think I’m saying the hit is legal and not dirty. Because I’ve said repeatedly that it’s both dirty and illegal.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
But you said Cooke was the better player! That clearly infers that the hit was legal and you want to have his babies!
/massive sarcasm, if you couldn’t tell
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Ahhh gotcha. LOL wow misconfusion.
Here – here is a beer on me.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Haha no worries…that’s why I was so confused over what we were arguing about.
I was just saying that the leaving his skates thing probably didn’t factor in to the call. I mean I agree, I think he hurled himself in to him, but you could have called a couple other things there as well. It was definitely deserving of 5 minutes regardless. That’s was my point, that it doesn’t matter if he left his feet (which honestly is driving me nuts because I watched it now 27 times and still can’t tell when his skates leave the ice versus when contact is made with Tyutin’s back because of the angle), it’s a major penalty, and something I feel is worthy of a suspension.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
[shrugs] I thought I saw him leave his feet the first time I saw it. I dunno…
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
So did I, the more I watch, the more I can’t tell if it was before or after contact.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I have to agree with this. Think Danny B’s hit last year on Hannan. There was some argument at the time whether he was off his feet when contact was made or whether the impact put him in the air. And that’s just a distraction from the real point: the danger is launching yourself upward in a way that could lead to going aerial.
I agree, but I also looking at in in the reality of hits in the NHL today. Watch a lot of hits in slow motion, post contact, there are a lot of skates in the air.
All that said, I definitely think Cooke hurled him himself in to Tyutin. I’m just agreeing with people that I can’t tell if he left his feet before contact or not for the sake of being as fair as possible. And even with that, every part of that hit is dirty.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
You’re saying Tyutin had a stupid moment along the boards, to that I ask, what was he supposed to do? Like I said way up in the other discussion, my opinion on what I saw Tyutin do:
Tyutin seems to try to play the puck in a hurry, just pushing it a little further up because he knew the check was coming. What was he supposed to do, just back off and leave the puck there untouched so he wouldn’t get hit, and let Cooke swoop in and try to steal it at the boards? Even if he did just leave the puck unplayed, Cooke still may have shifted direction slightly to make sure he still laid a hit on him.What do you think Tyutin should have done?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
You are also wrong. Cooke leaves his feet. I watched the play several times. I’m not sure how you’re watching these videos that you can’t see it.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
In fairness to John, I’ve watched it a ton, frame by frame, and from the angle in the only video I see, i can’t tell if he’s made contact yet or not because the view is from behind Cooke. That said, I don’t think the contact caused Cooke to leave the ice surface, I feel like he hurled himself at Tyutin. However, leaving your feet after contact is rarely called in the NHL.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I was just about to clarify that it was before he hit that he left his feet. I watched it too, and I see him off his feet before contact. Either way it’s a dirty and illegal hit.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
That’s Downie, not Jones.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Congratulations Captain obvious…..
I have a cookie waiting for you whenever you want it haha.
Samesis
Yeah. Just didn’t see anybody mention that fact. And the picture is blurry.
Wanted to clarify is all.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Well you’re doing a crackerjack job haha. But seriously, I think some of the blame should fall on Tyutin.
Samesis
Seriously, i think you need to watch the whole play again.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I did like 5 times, and every time I see Tyutin making a move towards the left side, and he stops just when Cooke is about to hit him.
Samesis
He had to play the puck. Hit stick was on the opposite side of his body from the puck and the boards, so he had to rotate his body in order to get his stick to the puck. What did you want him to do? You can’t blame him without saying what you think he should have done instead.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Ok, so its neither players fault then. All I’m saying is that the hit wouldn’t have looked so bad if he didnt stop and turn his back.
Samesis
That definitely made the hit look bad, but I can’t say it wouldn’t have been just as much of a crushing hit if he’d been facing Cooke or if he’d been sideways. Regardless, I can’t imagine being an NHL player and saying to my coach “But Matt Cooke was charging me! I was afraid of him hitting me, that’s why I left the puck there and chose not to play it.” That’s gotta go over well in the locker room. /sarcasm
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I wish you two were playing in the open ice game.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Geoff can’t make it, borrow his stuff.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I suck at find pics....
But this is roughly what Geoff’s equipment would look like on JpH89…
I'm kind of a dick.
Then you might have a concussion. We were testing you.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Not really a response to anyone in particular
And obviously doesn’t show the timing, but:
Yeah that’s what I can’t figure out. He clearly hurled himself at Tyutin, but he seemed to ride up his back after initial contact.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I’m struggling with the physics of that though. If Tyutin was against the boards, it would provide the resistance to push Cooke upwards. But he’s not. He’s in a posture where he’ll move very easily from the contact, so I don’t see where the reaction force to lift Cooke off his skates would come from.
Oh yeah, I’m about to go free body diagram on this shit.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
The Bergeron hit was bang bang Bergeron turned at the exact same time Jones made contact. Tytutin had is back turned to Cooke the whole friggin way down the ice. And Cooke left his feet by a mile so much so he was called for CHARGING.
You don’t have to leave your feet for charging anyway. It often gets called that way, but its not a requirement. Charging is a violent check that results from distance traveled. Cooke clearly traveled a long distance to work up momentum for the hit.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Technically you can call Charging for that but it never is called that way. It is pretty much reserved for leaving your feet.
Yeah, Charging is when you take 3 or more straight strides towards a player and hit him, which Cooke clearly did, I’m not arguing that. And No, leaving your feet doesn’t make it charging.
Samesis
A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.
If you’re quibbling between “jumping” and “leaving your feet,” I’ll say there’s minimal room for interpretation in the rules.
I disagree. Watching hits these days, and what is not called, I definitely think there is a lot of room for the interpretation of “jumping”. And the jumping part of this hit was not the worst part, far from it IMO.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I’d lean towards calling most hits where the player’s skates end up in the air charges. Directing your momentum upwards is always dangerous. While there are some cases where the player is thrown off his feet from horizontal momentum, I’m okay with casting a wide net and catching a few dolphins.
And since you agree that every part of that hit was dirty, I don’t think it matters much which part was the “worst.”
Haha, fair enough. I just bring up the jumping because, as I said above, which I’m sure you are getting to as I repeat myself here, it seems like it isn’t called much on it’s own (only if it would have been a charge regardless if the player left their feet), which is understandable given the speed of the game and that fact refs don’t have slow mo vision.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Jody Shelley has accepted his new role
as a Multi Million Dollar Cheerleader and luggage bag boy. " Ready ? Ok ! Go Team Go ! Fight ! Don’t just sit there and be a blob ! Fight !"
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Hey, if I would get his paycheck for those duties, I’d take it.
By the way, your post made me laugh. Nice one! (and I do not intend that to sound sarcastic even though it might.)
I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on Feb 9, 2011 9:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Missing Teeth, cuts and scars with bruises on his face and head, Hairy Legs in a skirt and black and white shoes with bobby socks, Flyers Jersey and Orange and black pom poms with a helmet.
Thats what you pictured ?
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Wait, the Islanders are having goaltending issues and the Flyers are doing well in that area (at least relatively so)?
Have I ventured into a bizzaro world?
*obligatory Cooke is a douchebag (talented but still a douchebag) comment *
I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on Feb 9, 2011 9:56 AM EST via mobile reply actions
No Not a Bizzaro World. The way I see it. After all those years, Checkmanek, Esche, Emery, Vanbiesbrouk, Snow, Leighton, Ect. Ect. Ect.
We were due to finally hit something strong and solid between the pipes. Just like in sales,.. You have to go thru allot of No’s and No thank you’s to get to the final yes. The law of Numbers always wins.
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
Thanks for the link Geoff.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
You are welcome, Don.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
I for one am baffled by the lack of backhanded compliment, outright diss or even thinly veiled flirtation in the link. Shame on you Jeff.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Can I ever do anything right?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Not at this point, you can’t. The way this whole flirtation triangle has developed, you’re out of luck no matter what you do.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
I’m assuming you get things right in your area of work. However, I haven’t done the appropriate amount of leg work.
However, I have to give you credit for bowing out of the conversation regarding the new t-shirt coming to the BSH store soon.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Really? Normally you give me crap for being “no help”.
I like my idea for the other shirt coming to the store. I don’t know how we missed it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Which ideas?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
What would you do for a Krajicek bar and the Bobby world “Bob’s world” Shirt that was shown and never released.
Samesis
There are big things coming. Just be patient.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I just do the images, man. I can’t keep straight where they come from. If you got lost in the shuffle somewhere, I apologize.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I forgot to say “Thanks”.
I’m known to do that. So let me apologize for not showing gratitude.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Which other shirt? (Gchat me)
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
You could, you just need to put more effort into it. Your like the Flyers at this point last year, way down at the bottom, but there is still enough time to get back to the top.
Samesis
I think the only way to get Shaun to stop giving me shit is to write about a) The Guardian Project; b) Why Ian Laperriere is amazing; c) Why Jamie Moyer is amazing; or d) A 2,000 word article on the Flying Dutchmen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Well, to be fair, somebody needs to come out and write how awful the Guardian Project really is.
Samesis
I wrote reviews of the comics. I’ll fanpost it later.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
I like how you’ve ignored my compliment and focused on all the negative responses.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
The “I appreciated its simplicity” comment?
I appreciate your kindness today. However, Shaun is still giving me shit, so I must play the helpless victim.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Haha, well you shouldn’t need to respond to Shaun. Until he puts up another cartoon I feel like you shouldn’t really have any obligation to listen or respond to him.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
OOOOOOOOOH burn.
Love it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
How did Geoff not go here?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Because I’m not a dick?
haha, I totally am.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
This made me laugh out loud. Literally.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Giving you shit and being genuinely surprised in your personal growth are two different things.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 9, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Ah. Clever.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Couldn’t help myself. I still don’t know what that’s supposed to mean. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
haha, me neither.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Everybody has to understand it’s a physical game. We play a heavy heavy contact, heavy heavy physical speed game, that’s instinctive. Things happened very quickly. That situation did not happen instinctively. It did not happen quickly. He had three or four seconds to make up his mind and drive those numbers into the glass.
He said it right.
So, how about something not involving Matt Cooke:
Jakub Kovar signed an extension? What does that mean for next year? Teemu…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 11:45 AM EST reply actions
I think I recall the Czech hockey federation signing the transfer agreement with the NHL last year around the same time when Sweden did, so Kovář’s extension doesn’t really mean much from the Flyers’ perspective. They can still sign him in the summer if they want. I think the deadline for that will be June 15. At least I think that’s the deadline in the other leagues that signed the transfer agreement.
Awesome. Thanks.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I love looking at concept art and second guessing the Lightning re-branding (I’ll watch the video later, can’t at the moment).
I really like the second and fourth full-jersey mock-ups (although, I feel like they would have run into legal issues with DC over the fourth—it’s basically a Flash rip-off). Also, the fifth blue logo down, and the first pen sketch (as a shoulder patch). But what I mostly came away with: it was hard for them to avoid Harry Potter likenesses.
Yeah, there are some interesting choices there. I also like the 4th jersey mock-up, despite the potential legal problems. (It reminded me of a circular version of the winamp logo, though I feel like I’ve seen it somewhere else too.) And the 2nd and last blue logos are kinda cool. The last pen sketch is is also fairly badass and could be a good shoulder patch.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I’m not sold on the Zeuses. They seem like they would be busy, and the lines wouldn’t be clean enough.
For what it’s worth (if anything)…they posted a FLYERS rumor on ESPN Insider…if you want to call it a “rumor”….
“Even the Eastern Conference-leading Philadelphia Flyers could make a move before the Feb. 28 trade deadline. General manager Paul Holmgren, as reported by the Courier-Post:
“I like the depth of our team, but that doesn’t mean we can’t look around to see if there’s something we can add without giving somebody up.”
Chuck Gormley of the Courier-Post suggests Holmgren may want to exploit the approximate $3.5 million in cap space by pursuing a winger to play alongside Mike Richards and James van Riemsdyk on the third line.
If the Florida Panthers morph into sellers, Radek Dvorak and Christopher Higgins could be affordable options. Jussi Jokinen of the Carolina Hurricanes may also be a decent choice. All three are poised to become unrestricted free agents at the conclusion of the season.
However, 8-2 in their past 10 contests, the Flyers are already rolling along nicely. Holmgren will only make a deal if it’s nearly perfect."
He wonders what he could get for $300k.
(Seriously, I need to stop it.)
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Yeah, I’m just thinking, we don’t have 3.5M in cap space. I don’t want to use what we have. Leave the team as it is unless somebody gets injured (and I’m knocking on wood now and probably for the next 5 minutes). Save cap space for any bonuses so we don’t have a penalty next season.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
Chuck Gormley of the Courier-Post suggests Holmgren may want to exploit the approximate $3.5 million in cap space by pursuing a winger to play alongside Mike Richards and James van Riemsdyk on the third line.
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I will argue over this again if I have to. Who is supposed to score on Richards’ wing? James van Riemsdyk. And he’s not. So let’s upgrade the guy who’s job isn’t supposed to score. For a bunch of guys who CAN’T SCORE! Erik Cole? Seriously? Chris Higgins? Seriously?
Sure, have these guys be 13th forwards. Good depth. Not top-9 players.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Is this a Nodl argument? Is this a “don’t sacrifice a line able to play very solid defense for another scoring line” thing? I might have missed the original argument.
It’s the “Why do people want to upgrade Richards’ winger to add more scoring by removing the defense on the line and keeping the sub-standard scorer on the line, and adding a past-his-prime player who can’t score” argument.
So yeah, almost what you thought it was.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Without getting into the nitty-gritty, I assume you just think that there aren’t two-way players of value available to us to replace a Nodl, not that there aren’t players more talented and capable of filling the defensive reponsibility and add a little more in terms of playmaking?
I.E. Not that you can’t improve Richards’ wing opposite JVR, but this market lacks a replacement of good value?
Right.
But the anger comes from people wanting “scoring” on Richards’ wing, and they point to Nodl as the guilty party. Which is infuriating..
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Well in fairness, Nodl isn’t scoring on 33% of his shots and I don’t care about his role on that line (or that line’s role), so frankly that’s just unacceptable.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Right!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
JVR has picked up his scoring recently 0.5 pts per game since the New Year doubling Nodl’s output over the same time frame.
If JVR was as ICE COLD as Nodl right now he would be getting the same criticism.
You want to have this again, Chris? Ok. Cool.
In the 14 games since Jan. 1st:
Nodl: 7 GF, 7 GA, 49.5% Fen, 47.7% Cor, 35.7% OZS
JVR: 12 GF, 9 GA, 49.1% Fen, 48.2% Cor, 47.4% OZS
So the team is controlling the play just as well with Nodl on the ice. The team is facing FIRST LINE COMPETITION when Nodl is on the ice, but scoring fewer goals. And Nodl is starting in his own end 2/3 of the time.
But those 14 games show that Nodl’s offense is a problem. What about JVR’s 14 games to start the year?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
But those 14 games show that Nodl’s offense is a problem. What about JVR’s 14 games to start the year?
Thanks, I’ve tried to bring this up a few times and nobody bit.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Of course not, because the team doesn’t need to upgrade their scoring from 4 months ago. They need it NOW.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
What does exactly does “starting in this own end” mean? is it that his shift often starts in our zone or does it mean that his line spends more time in our zone?
Yeah. It’s
offensive zone faceoffs / (offensive + defensive zone faceoffs)
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
You could back it up earlier than 14 games.
Nold scored 14 pts in the 1st 20 games of the season.
And only 5 points in the last 25 games. I am talking points here not just goals but points.
JVR had 9 pts in the 1st 20 games and has been at about 0.5 pts per game all season long.
Nodl has matched Malhotra’s point production since December 5th. Malhotra has worse teammates a harder qualcomp and the league worse D-Zone starts.
You can’t argue that Nodl shouldn’t be scoring more than he is right now. Regardless of competition and zone starts.
Zherdev has only four points in his last fifteen games. And compared to Nodl, he faces weaker competition, with better teammates and more favorable zone starts.
Should we dump him too?
There ya go.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I finally gave up and dumped Z from my fantasy team. I hear about the “chemistry” of him playing with G and Carter, but since then he doesn’t score goals anymore. Sorry Z, I need points. :-/
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
So has it just returned to his career average or has it dipped below that. I don’t play fantasy hockey but I always find people over react to slumps in fantasy baseball and will dump a Z like guy but often regret it down the stretch.
5 pts in 25 games is pretty bad and Nodl doesn’t have the pedigree that either JVR 2nd round draft pick or Zherdev former 70 pt season to fall back on.
Who is the real Nodl? The 14 points in 20 games or the 5 pts in 25 games. That is what I was saying when he is regressing to his mean of NO GOAL.
He is not productive enough IMO to get 15 minutes of ice time regardless of competetion with Richards.
If we had a Malhotra line with all defensive guys then that is it. But with Richards and JVR that winger should get more points by accident like Carcillo did last year.
Really, like Carcillo, who had 12 goals and 10 assists in 76 games last year. That’s definitely not the way to go with your argument.
/Facepalm
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
If Nodl keeps up his 5 points ever 25 game pace he will end up with only 15 points in those 76 games. Carcillo will have him beat by 7 points.
Glad to know you like to use selective samples. So, if JVR reverts back to his early season pace, what does that put him at?
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Why do you insist on defending one player by bashing another? JVR has nothing to do with Nodl and his recent lack of production. JVR has gotten more productive as the season went on where as Nodl has NOT.
And for his career JVR is a 0.472 pts per game. Nodl is at 0.25.
Don’t defend Nodl’s lack of recent production by saying well JVR didn’t score earlier. That is bullshit 12 old arguing and one has nothing to do with anything.
Nodl is not producing Bottom Line. When JVR slumped he got benched we all say he need to do more and get on the scoring pace and it was a good coaching move to wake him up.
Why can’t anyone say that now about Nodl because he is apparently God’s Gift of defense of wingers and we need to spend day after day singing his praises he can do no wrong.
I don’t understand the special treatment. When the guy is playing well I say he his playing well when he is cold he is cold. And Nodl has gone insanely cold NO JUSTIFICATION or abstract reasoning required.
Who’s saying he can do no wrong?
For the sake of playing devil’s advocate, if you want to bash one guy for his numbers, why is someone else with similar numbers exempt? Not trying to defend Nodl by bashing someone else, just saying if you’re gonna be hard on one guy for his numbers, why ignore others with similar production? Let’s put the shoe on the other foot, why are you singling Nodl out?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
He’s exempting JVR because JVR is doing better in his most recent games and chris is focused on recent performance.
So the question isn’t why he’s bashing Nodl but not JVR; it’s why he’s bashing Nodl but not Zherdev. As I said above, Z has only 4 points in his last 15 games, against weaker competition, with better teammates and more favorable zone starts.
That’s another good point, but since Chris is only worried about the 3rd line, I’m sticking to that line.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I’d be more worried about a drop off in scoring on the 2nd (scoring) line than the 3rd (shutdown) line, but you’re right, the discussion was about the 3rd line. Don’t want to change the topic to make a point. ;-)
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I would be too…I’m just so pissed he can’t realize all the flawed logic in his argument.
You’ve done a better job remaining calm and pointing them all out.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Meh, some days he (or others, ahem) push my buttons, other days he doesn’t. Today he doesn’t, so I can keep my head straight. Tomorrow I might lose it and need you to cover for me. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Yeah, I just stopped responding to the other guy, wasn’t worth it. I actually like Chris as a person, the other guy, I don’t really care to know if I would have liked him or not.
It’s worked out well thus far haha.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
The other guy drove me insane at first, but once I cooled down it was fun to “poke the bear” and see how worked up I could get him. I’m an asshole like that. As far as I’m concerned, he deserved it. Chris doesn’t.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
One thing I've learned from all of this...
Now that I understand the importance of projecting recent performance to predict the career path of a young player, I realize the Red Wings did the smart thing in benching and then giving away Ville Leino after he had very little offensive production for a two-month stretch.
by Eric T. on Feb 9, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
haha, rec’d
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Nodl doesn’t have the pedigree that either JVR 2nd round draft pick or Zherdev former 70 pt season to fall back on.
He exempts Zherdev because he had a former 70 point season, and Nodl did not. So in the case of Z, he seems to consider past performance, not present. How curious!
Oh, and JVR is exempt because he was a high draft pick. A high draft pick that I’m pretty sure Chris claimed was wasted earlier this season. Hmm….
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Don’t defend Nodl’s lack of recent production by saying well JVR didn’t score earlier. That is bullshit 12 old arguing and one has nothing to do with anything.
Wow, is all I have to say.
Chris, you are the captain of jumping on a guys bandwagon and jumping off, so much so that when I said Nodl would regress, I said you would do this.
You equate everything to recent productivity. You are basically predicting that Nodl will play cold, and JVR continue to improve the rest of the season. And you are predicting that based on a small sample of recent play. I’m not trying to bash JVR, I’m trying to point out the flaw in your god damn logic. Why are you so incapable of following logic.
Oh and thanks for the career NHL stats. Here are their college stats:
-Nodl 90 points in 80 games over 2 years at St Cloud State, or 1.125 points per game.
-JVR 74 points in 67 games over 2 years at UNH, or 1.04 points per game.
You know what they tell me about this season, nothing. Nodl’s role on that line is to play D and chip in offensively, JVR’s goal is to produce offensively, Richards job is to do both things equally well for the most part. Just because Nodl isn’t scoring doesn’t mean he isn’t doing his job…but just like I said before, as soon as he comes back to earth from a scoring perspective, you’ll forget about the rest of his game.
Seriously dude, you follow logic like a 12 year old with ADD.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
You’re absolutely right, you did call this way back when.
The problem lies in suggesting there might be a flaw in his logic…
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I’m not even trying to bash JVR, no one is, it’s just a let me show you the other side of that coin when you apply it to the other winger and his poor part of the season type of thing.
You know what last game tells me about the next game, nothing, absolutely nothing. Both JVR and Nodl are equally likely to be cold or hot the next game. The difference is their ceilings and floors. JVR has a higher ceiling when he is hot I think, but he also isn’t the player Nodl is defensively, so when he is cold, he isn’t giving you those other things so his floor is worse. That’s why players have different skill sets.
Nodl is obviously cold now, this stretch also isn’t his true talent productivity wise. If you want to take this poor stretch and predict it forward, how is it unfair for me to take JVR’s poor stretch and predict forward. I agree, on the whole JVR is a better offensive player, thankfully, that’s not why Nodl plays with Richards.
Frik
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
This. Exactly this. I also wanted to show the flip side by applying the same (flawed) logic to another player. And also wanted to show that short term means nothing, because of streaks/slumps, so you have to look big picture. No disrespect to JVR at all. Love the kid.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
1) Find me when JVR has slumped as bad as Nodl has this season.
JVR worse month was October with 4 pts in 11 games. Nodl 3 pts in 12 games in January and nothing in Feb. Nodl’s recent slump is much worse than JVR’s.
2) I have faith that JVR will develop because of where he was drafted and the skill he shows. Nodl hasn’t shown nearly the same amount of upside or potential to justify any faith that he would suddenly turn into a 15-20G 40pt player.
I also never jumped on the Nodl bandwagon I said I was starting to come around on him and maybe he has more offensive skill that I thought. I didn’t go out and buy his jersey or anything. I was complementing him when he was playing extremely well.
3) I would be completely content if Nodl reverted back his October November form and I don’t care about being wrong. Do I think it will happen? I don’t But I am all for it and still routing for him to succeed.
4) If I was in your camp and felt the Nodl wasn’t supposed score or that Nodl’s role is to only play D that I would be fine with what is doing. But since I don’t agree with foundation which entire justification for Nodl’s poor production so I don’t feel that way.
5) Finally I am not in love with Zherdev either but he usually finishes the prime scoring chances and isn’t frustrating to watch.
But in the end whether it is Nodl JVR or Zherdev we need more help on the wing and it worth to discuss adding that depth more so than it is to worry about who is going to get benched we can let that work itself out.
Thanks once again for not following the logic, and taking parts of what I say, and then repeating it so it reads completely different.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Is the last 25 games the small sample size. I took Nodl’s entire 92 game career and looked it that way versus JVR’s career.
The 14 game October November huge production hot steak is the smaller sample size compared to the slump. So what do you want me to look at here exactly.
Changing the subject a little
I wasn’t on here two years ago. Did you guys make an appropriate amount of fun of Nodl for finishing tied with Biron in points his rookie year?
I’m pretty sure the Nodl v. JVR part started because of me – no, I’m not taking credit. I’m a huge JVR supporter – so let me explain. It’ll essentially be what Don said, but in different language.
People want to replace Nodl because they want more scoring from the third line. Skip over the part where that’s a luxury (as shown by the other team’s #9 scorers), is short-sighted (Carter/Giroux then play against 1st line competition 13 minutes a night instead), Zherdev isn’t scoring either, and it’s not Nodl’s game (he’s not a scorer), so you get to the meat of the argument:
Richards’ line isn’t scoring enough. So people immediately jump to Nodl, who is in a slump right now (like Zherdev). But JVR is supposed to give that line points. If that line isn’t scoring enough, why isn’t the focus on the scorer occupying the LW?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not arguing that he shouldn’t be scoring more right now. I’m arguing that when he isn’t scoring, he’s still contributing offensively, and he’s contributing defensively.
If people want more offense out of Mike Richards, well, they should want even more offense out of Jeff Carter. And Danny Briere.
But everybody says Nodl must be replaced because he’s dragging his line down. It’s asinine. He’s making that line what it is.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I am not saying he is is not contributing and nor do I want to get a player not in the mold a Nodl type. I want a two way player an UPGRADE TO NODL.
That means a guy who can do similar things to Nodl and more.
And I want a vacation home in Stowe, Bruges, and Fiji…but some shit is just not in the realm of possibility currently.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Haha. I’d like an upgrade too, but given other team’s needs, and the additional resources they have (picks and prospects) to use to go out and fill those needs, I just don’t see what’s out there to get.
If the Flyers can get better without shipping off any of their steady 11 O men, and their top 6 D, then I’m open to the idea. But I just don’t know what’s out there that is actually plausible.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Nodl’s 9 goals and 9 assists give him 18 points, 9th on the team. Here’s how the other league-leading offenses’ 9th best scorers compare:
Vancouver — Manny Malhotra 6-11-17.
Detroit — Jiri Hudler 5-15-20.
Chicago — Jake Dowell 5-12-17.
Tampa — Nate Thompson 7-10-17.
Colorado — Kevin Porter 9-6-15.
Sure, we’d all like to have any upgrade we can get at any spot. But Nodl’s offensive production this year has been as good as any #9 forward’s (and he’s been very good defensively).
Your only argument for getting rid of him is that he hasn’t gotten points in recent weeks, but why you’d want to divide an already-small half-season sample size into an even smaller chunk to support an argument is beyond me.
Also hasn’t Nodl been kinda snakebitten of late – his goal total would be higher if had been a bit more lucky or a goalie hadn’t made a " you gottta be kidding me Tim Thomas drunken panda saves." He’s had a couple posters in a few games and just in the last game vs. the Stars, the goalie robbed him on that nice wrap-around
Nope, totally Nodl’s fault.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
If we can improve our 9th best scoring advantage Flyers. It is not about matching other team it is being better than them. VAN has a much better top end scoring with the Sedins and Keslers already in the 30’s goalwise. The Flyers strength is depth and we could use more of it especially on the right side where Z and Nodl are the 2 least productive forwards if the top 9 in terms of GFO/60 and Carbomb is the reserve forward doesn’t bring much offense either.
by chrislanci on Feb 10, 2011 7:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes. Let’s upgrade everybody who isn’t scoring.
Even the guys who play defense. Even the guys who are simply in a slump. Let’s trade Michael Frolik because clearly, he sucks. It’s not a statistical variance, it’s clearly his true talent.
In fact, let’s trade for Jarome Iginla. And Joffrey Lupul. And Manny Malhotra. That will upgrade Z, Nodl, and Shelley. Let’s do it. Then we can go trade for Ed Jovanoski, to upgrade O`Donnell.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 10, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
The team can always be better. Especially if the only pieced being dealt are mid round draft picks Oscars Bartulis and Dan Carcillo.
Once again what is Nodl’s statistical invariance.
The 14 pts in the 1st 20 games 2011 or pretty much the rest of his pro career?
Frolik has back to back 20 goal seasons so it much easier to understand this year is a slump. Nodl has none of that.
Also the team will have to come back in games from time to time. And having a scoring option to move up into Richards wing when behind in the game isn’t a bad thing. It is better than double shifting Danny with Richards.
Just like JVR sits at the end of games for defensive players sitting defensive players for offensive ones when behind isn’t a ridiculous notion.
Because the Flyers don’t have enough offensive players. Briere, Hartnell, Leino, Carter, Giroux, Zherdev, Richards, and JVR.
Damn, we need 9 offensive players. It’s ridiculous.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 10, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
I forgot to add: There’s not enough room on the PP for all the guys the Flyers want to put out there, but we use the final 2 minutes of hockey games to say that there needs to be more players who can score for those situations?
Use your excess PP players!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 10, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
And whoever “replaces” Nodl is going to have to take a lot of Dzone faceoffs, negating their offensive prowess to an extent. Unless, that is, we want to put the HBL line in the defensive zone more often. Which, unless we’re idiots, we don’t. Because that’s not their role. Yet we never say to trade Leino because he’s horribly sheltered and has his scoring amplified by having an opportunistic caveman and an opportunistic little bastard as his linemates crashing the net.
Bob.
We never say that, because we want him at a $3 million cap hit.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 10, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
I’m getting sick of people using Nodl’s first year in pro hockey as a measure of his talent. He was clearly not ready, and it showed in the way he played, he was nervous, tentative, it was a disaster. add to it, he didn’t seem physical ready, or at all prepared for body contact. But no, let’s include that.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
But before this season, that was his true talent, remember?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 10, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Like I said, trade Nodl and Z for Perry and Ryan, done.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Nah, gotta ask for a 1st round pick then I’d do it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 10, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Normalized to Nodl’s production Eric Cole is a 60 goal guy.
/sarcasm
I do like Jussi though even beyond this season he is a pretty solid all-around player.
I like Jokinen too. I don’t see why Carolina would trade him though.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
They might be in the mix but UFA’s to be are fair targets for trade and we have good history with dealing with them and have lots of Fins on are team.
Okay. But why would they trade him? They’re in 8th place, he’s young, he’s cheap, and he’s second on the team in pts/g and first on the team in 5-on-5 scoring.
Why would they trade him?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
They know they can’t or aren’t willing to resign him. I it is unlikely but I wouldn’t say never. If you can get some picks for a guy who is going to walk why the hell not.
Okay. So this is all dependent on Jokinen not wanting to play in Carolina?
Then I dismiss the rumor as unfounded.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Sam Carchidi will publish it as a rumor in 3…2…1…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Me neither.
Maybe he’ll walk into the Flyers’ locker room by mistake on Thursday and he’ll be so enamored with everything that he’ll ask for a trade!!!!!!!
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I like Jussi Jokinen.
Not saying I would necessarily trade for him and expect him to be an offensive dynamo on that line, but I like Jussi Jokinen.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I think all three of us can agree that we like Jussi Jokinen.
I’d almost certainly trade for him, but I highly doubt Carolina would offer him. Unless it’s July 1st at 11:30 am.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Plus, we’re slacking in that whole “Most Finnish Team In The League” thing anymore. Remember that? Hey, wha’ happen?
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I want an entire line, so we can call them “The Finnishers”
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
by hintzy64 on Feb 9, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why would Erik Cole be a terrible acquisition? (The whole LTIR “Does Cole actually fit under the cap argument?” aside) I’m looking at his advanced stats, and in alot of ways, this year he’s almost a clone of Nodl.
(stat dump and very long post warning)
QualComp
Cole: 0.045 (2nd amongst forwards in CAR)
Nodl: . 0.010 (3rd amongst forwards in PHI)
Corsi Rel QoC
Cole: 0.842 (1st amongst forwards)
Nodl: 0.828 (1st amongst forwards)
OZone Start
Cole: 48.5% (4th amongst forwards)
Nodl: 44. 2% (6th amongst forwards)
OZone Finish
Cole: 51.1% (6th amongst forwards)
Nodl: 50.3% (7th amongst forwards)
Corsi Rel
Cole: -1.0 (8th amongst forwards)
Nodl: -1.6 (8th amongst forwards)
Goals per 60
Cole: 0.74 (4th amongst forwards)
Nodl: 0.77 (tied for 8th amongst forwards)
Pts per 60
Cole: 1.74 (5th amongst forwards)
Nodl: 1.75 (tied for 8th amongst forwards)
Extremely close all the way through. I’m not sure that you’re not selling Cole’s defensive abilities a bit short here. He’s playing against great competition, and not doing that poorly from a Corsi standpoint relative to his teammates. Granted, his GA/60 is very high (2.90), but that could be a by-product of playing on a mediocre squad. But would getting Cole make for an scoring upgrade on the Richards line? In a vacuum, no, although you could take into account the fact that Cole had the best years of his career under Laviolette and would seem to be a good fit for his preferred style of play.
But the stats do imply that there may not be a much of a downgrade defensively, and Cole could theoretically take Nodl’s spot without changing the Richards’ line role, while adding possible scoring upside that comes from his past comfort in Laviolette’s system. It also would improve the depth, and make for a greatly improved 4th line, as that’s where Nodl would likely end up (Betts-Nodl-Powe? I like it). And if Cole doesn’t work defensively with Richards, then scratch him or put him on the 4th line.
Cole could come cheaply, seems underrated defensively to me, and at the very least will replicate Nodl’s scoring, if not better it. If he can be gotten for a reasonable price, how would it a bad acquisition?
1) I don’t think Carolina is selling right now.
2)
If he can be gotten for a reasonable priceI think that’s the whole point.
3) Or more so a combination of 1 and 2, It’s a lateral move on your 3rd line, with a marginal improvement at best. It’s good depth, and improves the 4th line. What are you giving up to get him here. Remember, you are trying to pry him away from a team that is in playoff position, and who will be battling the whole way down the stretch for playoff position.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
by DLJr on Feb 9, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not really arguing whether Carolina is selling right now. I’m just trying to understand the distaste for a potential Cole acquisition, because I don’t share it.
My argument is that, worst case scenario, it’s a lateral move on the 3rd line if he continues playing the way he’s playing, and a moderate improvement on the 4th. At best, you’re getting a 25+ goal scorer with previous comfort in this system who provides a scoring upgrade to Nodl while still providing two-way play.
Would I be angry if the deal was Nodl + a pick? Of course. If it was a mid-round pick for a expiring contract with injury issues? I’d be fairly happy. It would be a hell of alot better than most of the names being thrown around, in any case.
My understanding for the distaste is logistics in the trade for what is most likely a mostly lateral move on the 3rd line, and improvement on a 4th line that will see limited minutes in the playoffs. So you may not want to argue if Carolina is selling, but then you aren’t really considering the whole reason for the distaste. But if you want to ignore the fact that it will be almost impossible to take a player like Cole away from a team in a playoff race with just a mid-round pick (unless maybe they then package said pick for another deal), the distaste is that it doesn’t improve the team as much as the majority of people who wanted this assume it will. You recognize that it’ll be a marginal improvement on the 3rd line, and an improvement on the 4th line who won’t play significant minutes as the team moves further on in the playoffs; but the distaste comes from people who falsely believe that Cole is a huge improvement over the current situation n the 3rd line. If everyone were as reasonable in their argument for Cole as you are, you wouldn’t have to reaction from Geoff that you see.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Yeah, I think you can separate “I want that guy” from “I don’t want that guy if we have to give up too much”. Obviously if we wake on trade deadline day to “Flyers trade Andreas Nodl and a 2011 2nd Round Pick to Carolina for Erik Cole,” we’d rightfully be livid. But Cole’s a guy who I can reasonably understand why the front office would be showing interest in.
I just don’t think he’s one of those players that should immediately be met with a response of “This makes no sense” like a Chris Higgins would be. He would have a role on this team, and there would likely be some type of improvement.
As you guys have both mentioned, if there was a Gagne-type available that would be perfect, but of course, he’s not. So if there’s going to be a move, Cole seems to be one of the few guys discussed that could work with this roster and end up actually improving his statistics in a Flyers uniform. Most of the other guys that I hear mentioned, my reaction is “Please no.” For Cole, it’s more of a “That could work, just don’t pay too much.” If Carolina is asking for too much or simply won’t talk due to the fact that they’re in the playoff race, then no great loss, Nodl just keeps doing what he’s doing and the Flyers end up with the top seed. But if it’s a reasonable price, I’m not opposed to pulling the trigger on a Cole deal.
Yeah, I think you can separate "I want that guy" from "I don’t want that guy if we have to give up too much".
In general, maybe, but when we are looking specifically at the deadline, the pool of players can’t be “any hockey player we’d want more than Nodl.”
True, but it can be “any hockey player that’s actually been discussed in trade rumors,” and Cole has been.
Of course, but Carolina could be a seller if they struggle over the next few weeks or if management decides that the chances of winning a cup are near impossible and they’d like to get something back for expiring contracts. It’s certainly possible… they’re only 8 points ahead of Toronto, after all.
At which point I’d revert to Don’s argument:
You recognize that it’ll be a marginal improvement on the 3rd line, and an improvement on the 4th line who won’t play significant minutes as the team moves further on in the playoffs; but the distaste comes from people who falsely believe that Cole is a huge improvement over the current situation n the 3rd line. If everyone were as reasonable in their argument for Cole as you are, you wouldn’t have to reaction from Geoff that you see.
For me, giving up anything in a trade in order to get a guy on that contract who is only a minor improvement on a very limited scale is almost never getting to be worth it.
Eh, the contract isn’t an issue to me because it’s an expiring one, fits under our cap (according to capgeek), and it’s basically market value for what Cole at his age has been providing recently in Carolina.
I could also argue that a Cole trade would be an attempt to put the Flyers over the top when comparing them to the other deep teams in the league like Vancouver and Detroit. Fangraphs had a baseball-oriented article about the marginal value of a slight improvement for elite teams being fairly valuable about a year ago, and while it doesn’t fit perfectly here (the argument was that Tampa signing an expensive reliever made sense because they were competing with the Yankees and Red Sox), it could be used as justification for a minor upgrade with some upside. But that’s where it would just be a back-and-forth debate where it would sort of just come down to personal opinion on how to build a championship contender, which is completely fair.
My main point is that Cole warrants such a discussion.
Except I thought we couldn’t afford him. But that was almost two weeks ago. And it contains a lot of big, scary numbers. So beyond pointing you to that link, you’re on your own.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Ha, I’ve read it, don’t worry, which is why I’ve qualified my point with “according to capgeek”. Capgeek and Geoff differ on this one, but with all due respect to Geoff, I’ll defer to capgeek here considering the fact that I suspect they read his post and didn’t change their numbers as a result.
But yeah, it’s certainly up for debate.
And that’s the smart move. No offense taken.
CapGeek finally got back to me (as I said I emailed them) to – not surprisingly – tell me they were right and I am wrong.
Unfortunately, they responded with an example (Montreal used LTIR to acquire somebody) and not CBA language, so my stubborn ass refuses to concede.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
If you want, you can forward me the email and then I’ll mediate and try to find the CBA language that proves your point or proves their example.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
I’d agree to this. I think it’s just Geoff being bombarded with ridiculous logic recently…so you see the backlash.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Don did a great job handling my side of the argument, so I will simply say: Erik Cole is a solid player, and he would be a solid acquisition. But he isn’t a better organizational player than Nodl, and he’s barely – if at all – an upgrade to Nodl as of right now.
So like Don said, you’d be acquiring a $2.9 million player in order to upgrade the 4th line. No, Cole isn’t a 4th line player, but that’s essentially what you’re doing. Factor in the unlikelihood that he gets traded (Carchidi literally pulled this rumor out of his ass. This is as bad as an Eklund e1), the high cap hit, and the presumed cost going the other way, and it’s a bad trade. Not a bad player, just a bad trade.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Also, can we just mention that Mike Richards has as many points as Jeff Carter.
Why does he need an upgrade on his line and Carter doesn’t?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
What are the arguments today, homeslices?
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:10 PM EST reply actions
About to be one about Nodl again. But I won’t be here for most of it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
I’m fairly confident that he’ll get #10 Thursday, giving us 9 players who have scored 10 goals or more this season
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Tyutin did turn. Does it matter? Well I suppose its human nature to turn away when you know something is coming. The better question is: Staal or Fleury with the injury?
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Well, we disagree about the turning thing—I think his back was always showing. But, that’s all contained above.
And I don’t understand the better question.
I think the Pens are starting to suffer as a whole because of questionable hits by Cooke. Cooke might not be paying for his misdeeds, but Crosby received a dirty by the Caps and the Malkin hit was just unfortunate. Karma can’t be proven, but I think teams are eyeing up Crosby now to get Cooke to think twice about where he hits someone.
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
United in our semi-disgust for one Penguin.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
It’s taking its toll on the rest of the team. Malkin gets his knee destroyed, Crosby is still seeing Pink elephants, it’s not just coincidence that these guys are getting hurt
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Some people were saying they wouldn’t mind having him on the Flyers, so…
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Semantics!
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I’d like to argue your perceived absence of arguments.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Oh no, it’s just I’m not by a computer until later parts of the day (I scheduled my schooling so that I’m free for 7 oclock games every day, but on tuesday and thursday I’m booked until 4)
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Lanci keeps accuses me of saying things I never said.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
still going on Don?
This might be off topic – I’m still a Todd Bertuzzi fan to this day. One dirty hit truly killed his career
Matt Cooke is a douche, and is a liability. However, I have argued for months that Carcillo is a cool guy and all, but as far as usefulness goes, I just don’t think he’s that useful. But, just something to think about, when Cooke does these dumb things, he puts his teammates in danger. Yes, I do believe Crosby received that hit partially because of the bullshit Cooke pulls
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I hate Cooke, I don’t really like Carcillo (I still don’t believe he has his head on straight, though that is more defendable than Cooke having his head on straight and just being dirty), and I don’t think I can forgive Bertuzzi for that situation, Moore already fought and answered the bell, there was no need to do what he did there. He ended that kids career on a completely selfish and unjustifiable play…but that’s just a personal thing.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
An isolated event makes me less damning then the shit that Cooke pulls frequently. In a sport as protective as hockey (thats what makes it compelling), sometimes extremes are met. Bertuzzi went entirely too far, and is an outlier, but he was avenging Naslund, who is a softie. I’ve always thought that if you go for a blow to the head on a defenseless player, you’re opening up a can of worms
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Moore already fought for that hit though, that’s what really pissed me off about it.
But I do agree, isolated incidents are far more acceptable, which is why I didn’t say I was pissed he is back in the NHL. Just that I, personally, will always see a black cloud over Bertuzzi.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
And I’m looking at it again. It’s tough to go back and question the series of events, but if Moore just accepts that fight with Bertuzzi or doesn’t put his back to him, this doesn’t happen. Or if Bertuzzi just spins him around and sucker punches him, this doesn’t happen. The rule of thumb I guess is that if you elbow a star player in the face, it’s a safe bet that answering the bell just once won’t suffice.
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
The rule of thumb I guess is that if you elbow a star player in the face, it’s a safe bet that answering the bell just once won’t suffice.
I couldn’t disagree more with this. That is absolutely the ridiculous to me. He answered the bell, that’s “THE CODE”, does he have to fight 3 times, 4, 5? Seriously, that’s ridiculous.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
How is it not? There has to be some sort of scale in “the Code” that differentiates between a chop to the arm and an elbow to the face, they just aren’t the same act. They aren’t worthy of the same penalty. Thus I can say that when you lead with your elbow against NHL’s best scorer, one fight will not suffice. And if that’s not in the code, then the code needs to be updated.
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry man, but you lost me on this one. You cross the line, you are challenged, you fight, you move on. It’s the way the game has been for a while, and still seems to be. How many fights to Cooke have to face against the Bruins? 1.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
So every fight that followed after that season between a Bruin and Cooke, you’re going to tell me that that wasn’t influenced by Cooke’s dirty hit on Savard? Don’t you think that’s a bit naive to believe, that NHL players don’t hold grudges against other players who play dirty? I can’t venture to think that NHL players don’t have a memory. In fact, I know they do, because that bertuzzi hit on Moore was a week after the initial event. I shouldn’t be using my original example to prove a point, but these guys have memories. The Code might only call for a respond fight and an end to the fight, but I think that that animosity lives on for quite some time
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
And I don’t want to be seen as arguing for the sake of arguing (I guess it looks like it because I’m not really found around here if not for the game threads)
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying more fights don’t happen because a level of animosity has risen between teams because of a dirty play. But I’m saying there is typically one fight, in one game to address it with the player that committed the dirty act in question. Is there carry over to the rest of the team, sure, but that isn’t the question here. The question here was the whole should a player have to answer more than once in a single game, no.
Richards on Booth. Next time they played, Richards had to answer with McCabe. When Booth came back, he ask Richards to go because it was between the two of them, and Richards agreed to it.
In your example, Moore had already answered with a fight. Then, in the same game, from a player not effected by a hit, was asked to go again. The player can turn that down, just like Richards could have turned down either McCabe or Booth. Moore shouldn’t have to be worried about being jumped because he refuses a fight, ever, especially after he has already fought once (with Matt Cooke funny enough), and the second one isn’t with the guy that he cheap shot’d. He had every right to skate away there. Moore hit on Naslund was super dirty, he answered, then Bertuzzi sucker punched him. That was wrong of Bertuzzi and the result was unfortunate.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I’ll concede. A part of me wants to continue arguing, but a cover letter and resume have t be finished by tonight, so oh well
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Work should never be a reason to concede. If I let that stop be I’d have half as many comments on here and be a manager by now.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
True, but one thing I don’t like is when people make news when there is no news. It’s day 4 without a game being played, and I think we’re running out of Flyers oriented stuff to discuss?
Plus, what’ll happen is that I’ll start playing Nazi Zombies, NHL 2011 Hockey Ultimate Team, and completely disregard this thing. Need to do it now lol
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 9, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
So, on the topic of liking dirty players, and the fan relationship with cheap-shots:
I was talking to an Avs fan last night. He was at peace with Claude Lemieux being a terrible person who deserves bad things to happen to him off-ice, per karma. However, he was a crucial part of them winning the Cup. It’s a weird dynamic. He just tries not to think of him.
I guess it’s the same thing when you have a less-than-honourable player off the field who plays for a team you love. It pains me to root for Vick, even though I know he’s paid his debt to society and it’s not about him not deserving this or that. It’s just a personal thing. I would have a hate/love relationship with Roethlisberger, too.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
There’s a difference: Roethlisberger isn’t very good anyway.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I know that—but try arguing that with Pitt fans. I think his big game rep is overblown. But you know most fans don’t look at stats? They can see with their eyes! His 84 OB rating in playoff games and almost 50/50 TD/INT ratio is all an illusion!
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
haha, where’d you get those numbers?
I read the exact same thing.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure. But his Clutchiosity levels are high.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
GRIT! DETERMINATION! HE JUST WANTS TO WIN!
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Do any of you guys read Kissing Suzy Kolber? It’s an NFL blog, and my favorite feature is the weekly line-by-line bashing of Peter King’s SI column. This thread makes me want to reference some of those jokes, but I doubt anyone would get it. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I don’t. Anything good? I could use a joke. You know, other than Malkin’s face. /too soon?
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I haven’t had much time to read it lately (ironically, during the peak of football season), but yeah. Their larger-than-life characters of a number of notable NFL personalities (Rex Ryan, Tony Dungy, a stereotypical Patriots fan, Pac-Man Jones, etc) are pretty hilarious. And PK says some unbelievably stupid stuff in his column, so someone tearing his articles apart brings me great joy.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I wrote them before on this site, but I read them in a stats look at the history of his playoff games.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Ok. For some reason I was thinking KenTremendous (Mose from The Office) put them on Twitter.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
That’s possible, too. I think a lot of people are trying to shoot holes in this theory that he’s so clutch just because he plays like shit for 3 quarters and manages to have a decent to above average 4th, which his defense shoulders most of the load.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I mean, they were talking about him (fans/pundits) being a Hall of Fame worthy player just last week!
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Yeah. Which is ridiculous.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think he’s on pace to be a Hall of Fame player either way.
Connecting this to the LOES article: Vollman is right. Accomplishment is accomplishment.
But that’s like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino because he has a Super Bowl ring. It’s weak sauce.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying he’s better than Peyton Manning simply because he has more Super Bowls. He’s still a good/great-but-certainly-not-exceptional quarterback on a team that has won a few Super Bowls. And I think the hall of Fame is for recognizing players that met their opportunity, as well as those who performed well despite having little opportunity.
Don’t simplify things into a hyperbole. We can actually have a conversation about this.
There’s a difference between “Hall of Fame player” and “Hall of Fame worthy”. Every sport’s HoF is fucked. They’re terrible.
But if you’re just going to reward a guy for not sucking on good teams, you know how many players have to make it from the Steelers? A ton. Because they recognized their opportunity. But even then, Roethlisberger is 2 for 3 in Super Bowls, with one good game, one poor game, and one awful game. The fact that he won two of them doesn’t mean he’s HoF worthy.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Every sport’s HoF is fucked. They’re terrible.
Agreed, in that they are skewed towards players on teams that win and mainstream-stat-heros. But, given that we know this, can’t we just change our expectations for what the Hall is and write articles about Tim Raines?
Hell, it even says “Fame” in the name. Of course those who win get more glory, attention, fame regardless of circumstance. Flyers fans love Clarke and Barber more than Recchi and Kerr for a reason. At a certain point, when evaluating history, you have to account for the ultimate result of a season; especially since that’s all the players care about.
This is a very good point.
But Ben Roethlisberger is still shitty and undeserving of the Hall of Fame.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Disagree.
Ben’s career yards per attempt is 8.0. Compare with Brees (7.3), Peyton (7.6), and Brady (7.4) — he’s #1 among active players and #4 all-time, behind Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, and Norm Van Brocklin, who all obviously played in a very different era.
His interception rate is a bit higher than those guys, and his sacks taken are substantially higher, so I would put him behind those guys. But “Roethlisberger isn’t very good anyway”…I have a problem with that.
I’ll pull a Geoff on you: care to provide evidence to support your statement?
haha, another good point. This is why I don’t talk about football.
No, I can’t provide evidence to support my statement.
Roethlisberger sucks.
/WIP’d
//runs away
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
But is that because of Ben, or because their play style involves throwing longer passes and having elusive receivers that are good at running after the catch? Yards per attempt isn’t a good measure of a QB’s ability, it’s a measure of the system.
Bob.
1) I agree that it’s hard to separate individual performance in football. With that being said, I don’t think Ben has had an exceptional supporting cast over his career, but it’s always a complication.
2) I’m inviting you to provide evidence that he’s not very good. If you don’t think yards per attempt is a good measure of a QB, then what is? If you prefer advanced statistics, Football Outsiders had him second in DVOA (value per play) this year, and 7th in DYAR (total value added) despite missing four games.
Yeah, but what was his QualTeam? I’d say he’s had some pretty god supporting cast – Mendenhall’s a 1000 yard club member, Hines Ward is still good, Santonio Holmes was good, Willie Parker was good once upon a time, and when they had the Bus he was still a very good short-yardage back.
Seriously, though, the combination of yards per pass and high sacks suggest a play style that looks for long passes downfield (similar to how Vick had a high Y/P and SK%). Their only receivers to average less than 10 yards per catch were the running backs and the backup TE. The Eagles were somewhat similar, but they also had Vick as a potential scrambler (100 rushes for 676 yards), where Roethlisberger wasn’t as mobile (33 rushes for 176 yards). I think Roethlisberger is a decent QB, but not a GOAT candidate.
Bob.
I think we’ve had the Vick conversation before, but I’m pretty firm on my position that he has been pretty honorable since he made the kind of mistake that rich, young, talented people who live in a smoke-blown-up-their-ass bubble make.
Also: did you just compare the two crimes? Independent of the fact that one got away with it and one did jail time, I think you have to create a hierarchy of crimes, and place violent acts against women above violent acts against dogs. This from someone who contributes solely to animal rights and women’s rights organizations.
No, I compared the two players. The crimes are not the same in my eyes. I feel much more strongly about Ben’s deeds than Vick’s truth be told, but I was trying not to look like a total homer. I think Roethlisberger is a total piece of human excrement.
Like I said—I hold nothing against Vick playing and he has paid his debts and has been fairly stand up since coming back into the league—it’s just difficult to root for someone with your whole heart when you know the history.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I guess I draw a line somewhere, in that I think Ben is un-rooting-for-able (I’m on fire with my hyphens today), because there should be no upbringing/circumstance/culture/context that justifies that abuse. Not to make excuses for Vick, but there’s simply a certain level of respect that needs to be held for all humans at all times that for which contrition afterwards will not atone.
Not to get into a sanctity-of-life thread on a hockey site, but fuck Ben Roethlisberger.
Indeed. If there was such a thing as true karma, Ben would have been fucked by a rather large lineman right on the field for national TV. Alas, I will settle for his utterly humiliating perfomance.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
illadelph28 @mattcarle25 thx 4 raising $ for CHOP. My 5 yr old daughter just finished up battle with leukemia. She won thx to a hospital like CHOP.
…wow…that Carle really is a jerk!
He paid them to say that because he’s getting so much negative publicity.
/sarcasm.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Poor Lupul
Traded again. This time to the Leafs. Toronto trades Beauchemin for Lupul, Gardiner and a conditional pick.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Dude should just keep his bags perenially packed.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I’m surprised the Leafs took Lupul’s contract in the deal. I guess they really wanted to move Beauchamin.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Burke is building a team to win now, hadn’t you heard.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Forgive me if this appeared in a Fly By earlier this week and I missed it, but what’s the team up to with the four days off? Any fun team-building excercises/outings? Just practice as usual? Days off? Are they as bored as I am?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I know Laviolette made a commercial for West German BMW with Morganti yesterday—he talked about the experience on the Morning Show. He’s a funny guy. Yet serious. And he has an answer for everything. That guy is never unprepared.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Zing!
I didn’t say the team is always prepared. He may very well be—doesn’t mean TB’s coach isn’t more prepared.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I would have liked 5, but I guess what’s the difference between 4 and 5, outside of 1 game.
Good to see a suspension on a dirty hit that didn’t result in an injury though. Baby steps Campbell, baby steps.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
what’s the difference between 4 and 5, outside of 1 game.
Good at math, you are.
Mourning Gagne forever.
Speaking of cool things to wear (haha), how about if the Flyers and Hurricanes agree to suit up in their Cooperalls for Thursday’s matchup, as they were the only 2 teams to ever officially adopt this technological breakthrough in hockey gear. I’m referring back to Carolina’s days as the Whalers.
Sarauj, Latvija!
I like it, but only if Carolina uses the Whalers uniform (as pictured) for it.
Weird for me to see #27 not on Hextall. Who is that?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
And we probably shouldn’t forget that Reggie Leach wore 27 for several years before Sittler did.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Probably. I just divided salary by 82, assuming it was the same approach chris used.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
This is how the suspensions are calculated:
Repeat offender = (Cap hit / 82) x # of games suspended
First time offender (>18 months since last suspension) = (Cap Hit / 186) x # of games suspended
Cooke is a repeat offender, so it’s divide by 82.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
Then I’m still wrong since I used this year’s salary, not cap hit. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I didn’t check the math… but you had the 82 part correct.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Jody Shelley's Rules of Fight Club
Thought this was an interesting read, and Shelley takes an opinion on the importance (or lack thereof) of amassing points in the standings.
Sarauj, Latvija!
Good article. It continues to appear that I may have misjudged him.
I don’t see any mention of amassing points in the standings though, did I miss something?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
In Point 3, Shelley says that knowing when to fight is key, because you don’t want to start a fight and end up losing, thereby having the unintended effect of sparking the other team. He goes on to say:
“That’s something you should learn, especially now with each point being so valuable.”
Since there have been some intense discussions on here about wins/points, I just found this interesting.
Sarauj, Latvija!
Also off topic but
Theres an odd article about how the goalies in philly get called upon equally and how the coach never rides one goalie for too long. Is this the same coach that drove goalies to the hospital due to 15 plus consecutive starts!?funny how things work out. Its only been about a month since the goalies were rotated regularly.
http://m.philly.com/phillycom/db_45625/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=aLLa9AH8&src=cat
SanFillipo:
Most Missed Shots: Jeff Carter (83) – O.K., that’s not a surprise.
"Well, that's life, I suppose. You go along and then, suddenly...poof!"
Bruins vs Canadians
WOW this is a Barn Burner of a game ! 6 goals in 4 mins and 18 Seconds its now 5-4 Bruins ! And Fat Tim Thomas skated up crease to only get dropped by Price !
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
For a good time...
… read the Pension Plan Puppets post from earlier today about the Lupul trade. I went over tthere to read up on their reaction to catching Lupus, but it’s just plain hilarity.
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2011/2/9/1984366/leafs-trade-beauchemin-for-lupul-gardiner-pick
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Broad Street Hockey
Related FanShots on Broad Street Hockey
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Adam Henrique sends New Jersey Devils to Stanley Cup Final with OT goal vs. Rangers (VIDEO)
- Watch Ilya Kovalchuk’s Game 6 goal for Devils, a.k.a. power-play porn (VIDEO)
- Devils look to eliminate Rangers in Game 6; Hal Gill’s broken tibia (Playoff Puck Previews)
- Conan O’Brien joins long list of LA media that don’t really know what’s going on with the Kings
- For Los Angeles Kings, when does rest become rust for Stanley Cup Final?
