Tuesday Morning Fly By: Boring Deadline Day Sees Flyers Gain Tough Guy, Lose Draft Picks
Today's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- The Flyers acquired Tom Sestito for Greg Moore and Michael Chaput: [BSH] [CSNPhilly] [Flyers Faithful] [Frequent Flyers] [In The Room] [Philly Sports Daily] [PostStar.com] [The Cannon] [The700Level.com] [Forsythe and the Flyers] [Daily News]
- An interview with Sestito. Audio at the bottom. Come for the ringback tone, stay for the chat. [The Checking Line]
- File under "Great timing": Chaput is having a great second half of the season, with 12 goals and 11 assists since Christmas: [QMJHL]
- The players had a quite relaxing day, knowing they wouldn't be traded: [CSNPhilly] [Philly Sports Daily]
- But that doesn't mean they had an easy day yesterday. Laviolette skated them hard: [delcotimes.com]
- Holmgren felt the prices for players was too high, thus he was happy to stay put: [delcotimes.com]
- While Paul Bissonnette lost his closest friends on his team: [SBNation.com]
- A full wrap-up of the trade deadline: [SBNation.com]
- So remember all the fake tweets yesterday? Anthony SanFilippo writes a rather strong post on why they're good for hockey media: [In The Room]
- Nick Boynton is a great addition to the team. I concur: [Philly Sports Daily] [Daily News]
- Chris Pronger and Blair Betts returned to practice yesterday, which is good: [Philly Sports Daily]
- The always great North American Weekly Report, starring Shane Harper, Oliver Lauridsen, and Nic Riopel this week: [Flyers Faithful]
- Justin Williams signed a four-year extension yesterday. JFtC loves it. You? [Jewels From The Crown]
- Then the Kings got Dustin Penner from Edmonton: [The Copper & Blue] [Jewels From The Crown]
- But Edmonton didn't do their homework on Colten Teubert: [SBNation.com]
- Denis Bodrov signed a 2-year extension with his KHL team: [euroflyers]
- Which means is probably time to stop thinking of him as a Flyers prospect: [euroflyers]
- Looking at the best and worst trades, where Corey Pronman says he'd "love to see Philadelphia's five-year plan from their management as of now, because for their sake I hope they know something that I don't..." And plenty of other good criticisms: [Hockey Prospectus]
- Chuck Gormley moonlights over as CSN, with a great article on Coach Laviolette's family: [CSNPhilly]
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Is this early or late?
Man Crushin on Bob since 2010
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 1, 2011 6:30 AM EST reply actions
Anthony SanFilippo’s article on the fake tweets and gullible writers just made my morning.
"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State."
- Cris Carter, NFL Draft, 4/25/09
twitter: @princessblueezy
It’s crazy how one false report can send a legion of twitter lemmings right off a cliff. Did you also see that SI article on Pancaccio and his link to hockeybuzz.com? linky The intersection of social media and journalism has created some interesting dynamics. There’s got to be more blowback when any braying ass is more hell-bent on being first than being right.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 1, 2011 7:53 AM EST up reply actions
http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/38757-THNcom-Blog-NHL-trade-deadline-winners-and-losers.html
Did that really start here?
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 1, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
Gullible and rushed. Like he said, just take 5 minutes and check out the facts. If it’s out there, you obviously didn’t get the scoop.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed, this makes me so happy. His line “I understand we live in a world where immediacy is of the utmost importance, but really, shouldn’t accuracy come ahead of that?” says it perfectly. Luckily, this is just sports writing and not serious world events. The media can do an incredible amount of damage if they don’t take the time and responsibility to be correct instead of first.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I liked SanFilippo’s perspective in that article, because pretty much every other article I read was just blasting everybody involved. Particularly the one I saw in the Montreal Gazette, which almost forgave the fake twitter accounts based on the lesson but condemned them in the end, and then also blasted the reporters who fell for it.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed, everyone else is just mad they got burned and were made to look like fools. SanFilippo is right, if they paid attention and did their job, this wouldn’t have happened to them. It’s a good wake-up call to keep them honest.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I have $5 that says they all hit ‘snooze’ on that wake-up call, just like the large majority of the so-called journalists out there.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 1, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Upshall and Umberger
Ohhhh fan favorites together again….sad face
"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must first set yourself on fire." --Fred Shero--
Happy 6 month anniversary everybody! I’ve officially been here six months. And Happy Birthday to Gags the Leap Year Baby!!
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
Darn, you beat me to it! Piling on, Happy Birthday Simon!
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Kat beat you both. She was already going crazy over it on Twitter yesterday.
I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
I don’t get the headline. Moore wasn’t a draft pick?
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
You got more than I did, I thought they traded away two more actual draft picks.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
Bodrov and Chaput
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
You win again, you always do.
VERSTEEG never got "called up" to play in the NHL, he called up the NHL and the league jumped at the chance to play hockey with him.
Yeah, except Travis changed the headline. Because he thought I made a mistake.
Travis, you know me better than that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
:)
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Mar 1, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
I added an S so now it says the same thing as yours did, but it’s decidedly less negative.
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Mar 1, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
Um… the Flyers exiled a former 4th round pick earlier in the year, lost a 2nd round pick yesterday, and traded a 3rd round pick yesterday.
What did they gain? A goon.
I’ll prefer my negative comment until you they stop hemorrhaging draft picks to acquire fighters.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Never said I didn’t agree with you.
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Mar 1, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
I feel like SanFilippo: Only read below the name, because I didn’t write what’s above it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
Why is Sestito called a goon? Geoff you are being completely unfair here.
He is 6.0 C rated prospect Chaput was a 6.5 C rated prospect not much difference.
Chaput 6ft 2in 192 lb CENTER
Sesitito is 6ft 5in 228 lb LW
Both guys are 3rd round draft picks.
Sestito fights yeah but he scored 42 goals in 60 games in the OHL. And has 4 pts in 9 NHL games this season. I think penciling a big guy who fights as a goon is just more of you being a negative nancy.
Homer exchanged a center prospect who is still in juniors for a winger prospect who is much closer to NHL ready. We been over and over that we have too many Centers. Richards, Carter Giroux are all going to be here for quite some time and there still is Danny, Powe, and Betts currently.
Sesitio also adds size up to our prospect core which features a lot of small wingers.
Wellwood 5ft 10in 168lbs
Ranford 5ft 10in 180lbs
Rowe 6ft 2in 180lbs
Rinaldo 5ft 11in 170lbs
I don’t understand why you are jumping all over this saying we are giving away draft picks. Sesitio is technically a higher pick than Chaput 85th versus 89th.
What does that make Ben?
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
What are Sestito’s AHL numbers? Over 4 PIMS per game doesn’t scream “scorer”. Maybe “pest” is more accurate than “goon”.
How about Chaput’s contract? Oh, he doesn’t have one yet? So they traded 3 years of an ELC for 2 months of an ELC? Loss.
And funny you list Rinaldo in that group. With Sestito, the Phantoms now have 2 of the top-5 PIMS leaders in the AHL. No, Sestito is a scorer. Give me a break.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This wasn’t as epic as I had hoped it would be.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Sorry, I’m on my phone. :(
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No worries, I won’t be on the site nearly as much for the next…oh 3 years…so I can’t really blame you.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I’ll be on, just not as often; with new opportunities come new responsibilities. The lulls in my work days are going to fall rapidly in the coming months (right now my job is have 3 weeks or so where I work 10-14 hour days, then have a month or so trying to not fall asleep at my desk), and it will probably be that way for a good 3 years. I’ll know more on Friday.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
AHL scoring
Sestito: 0.16 G/game, 0.23 A/game, 0.39 P/game
Shelley: 0.04 G/game, 0.12 A/game, 0.17 P/game
Parros: 0.13 G/game, 0.11 A/game, 0.24 P/game
Brashear: 0.31 G/game, 0.23 A/game, 0.54 P/game
So he scores like Parros (16 goals in 6 NHL seasons) and passes like Brashear (120 assists in 16 NHL seasons). And he puts up twice the points of Shelley.
Oh, and he has 19 fighting majors this year.
PIMs have nothing to do with goon.
He also has 0.70 pts per game in AHL this season makes him second to Hamel on the Phantoms.
And that 0.70Pts/G mark is more than your new love Matt Calvert (0.66Pts/G) for the same team. And his shooting percentage is at 15% slightly worse than Calvert who was at 16.5%.
But he fights and gets penalties so he must be a goon.
Lindros had a couple 100+ penalty minute seasons as well. Rick Tocchet had 252 PIMS in 1992.
Just a couple of 40+ goal scoring Goons no doubt.
Juniors:
0.609 pts/game; 2.64 PIMS/game
AHL:
0.455 pts/game; 3.62 PIMS/game
NHL:
0.308 pts/game; 4.92 PIMS/game
Please, tell me how that guy is anything but a pest/goon?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
While I do agree with your cap concerns to some degree, if getting Sestito means that either Shelley or Carcillo is expendable then it will either be a wash or a savings.
And with the kid’s size and OHL point totals, I’m not nearly as willing to wash my hands of him as the Downie/Rinaldo mold of player. If he scores 10-15 goals a year, and drops the gloves as well, doesn’t that make him far more useful than Shelley (and to a lesser degree Carcillo)?
And Chris makes a good point about being overstocked at center as well – the team has a dearth of wingers in the team/system – so overall I definitely think trading a center away makes sense.
I will, however, reserve judgement on him every being more than an AHL goon until he proves otherwise. 4 points in 9 NHL games is too small a sample size to consider. But when dealing with minor/junior league players, it’s all about potential – and this kid has it.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 1, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
1) Sestito isn’t signed for next year, so he doesn’t make Shelley expendable. And Carcillo was already made expendable by Rinaldo. So he’s completely unnecessary.
2) Andreas Nodl had fantastic NCAA point totals, but Chris doesn’t care about those since he wasn’t scoring in the AHL or NHL. Now, he’s all about OHL totals despite not scoring in the AHL/NHL. Because Chris made the argument, I don’t put any stock in his hypocrisy.
3) Chris also was the one who consistently said don’t trade Carter because you can never have too many centers. Again, the hypocrisy strikes me as convenient. But I will address the concern that he was expendable by saying: If Eric Wellwood is playing center this year because the Phantoms don’t have any top-flight center prospects, can you really argue that the blockage at the NHL level is enough to trade a Juniors prospect who is not even under contract for next year yet? No. You can’t.
4) I freely admit that goon was too strong. He’s a pest. Which this organization has far too many of already.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
I guess one could say Sestito could be interpreted as being more ready for the NHL next year than Rinaldo, but that’s about all I’ve got.
I’m being lazy, I know, but where’s the link for calculating the NHL equivalency of those OHL numbers?
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
NHL E goes off the previous year’s performance, so you’d have to prorate his AHL numbers to a full season (not 82 games, mind you. Account for per game rates) then use 0.44.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
With this guy, I’d care more about his penalties drawn/taken, then his projected points. From what I’ve seen, he won’t score as many points as Carcillo. However, if he can still generate powerplays (despite what we’ve seen recently, they are still useful) and not take too many penalties, and come at half the cost of Carcillo, then I don’t really care about the points.
Mourning Gagne forever.
Definitely.
Because he’s not a scorer. He’s a pest. Which is infuriating.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I realize that, but I was just curious since Chris is putting stock in the OHL numbers.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Okay. Just wanted to be clear that the OHL Equivalency would project his NHL contributions had he jumped straight from the OHL to the NHL.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Shelley makes Shelley expendable – he don’t need no help. And given that Rinaldo looks even crazier than Downie, I’ll pass on that hand grenade, thanks. If Sestito SIGNS for less than Carcillo asks or we’d pay with waiving Shelley, it’s either a wash or a benefit. And that’s JUST cap numbers – from all I’ve seen Sestito has more potential than either Carcillo or Shelley (or the two combined, for that matter). I don’t know much about the OHL/NCAA argument – I usually tune out the redundant Nodl conversations to some extent – but Sestito has POTENTIAL. Unrealized, perhaps, but there. He’s beyond a ‘juniors prospect’ in my eyes as well; he could play AHL level next season or maybe get a bump up as the 13th forward on the big boys club (assuming Carcillo moves on and Shelley … is Shelley.) Even considering that it’s a ridiculously small number of games played, 0.31 points per game is not too shabby for a 23-year-old’s NHL-level resume! (Your boy Nodl is at 0.37 PPG, albeit in a defensive forward role, and its CONSIDERABLY better than Carcillo’s 0.15 PPG or Shelley’s 0.08 PPG!!!) I am NOT arguing that I see the second coming of Knuble, but perhaps the size and strength of this kid can make him useful. I mean hell – if Scott Hartnell can stand in front of a net and get lauded for it, so can Sestito.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 1, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
This is all incredibly optimistic. Expecting a guy with 3.62 PIMS/G in the AHL to make Shelley expendable and leapfrog over Rinaldo is a bit of a stretch. 13th forward ahead of Rinaldo? Maybe. But he has to sign first.
Either way, my problem is that he’s at best an agitator. And the Flyers traded a playmaker and an AHL character/depth guy for him. That’s redundant.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
And prospects are all about optimism, no?
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/tommy_sestito
Rates him as a 6.0C while Chaput is a 6.5C. Also seems to think he’s got possibilities as a power forward – which as we all agreed before, is far more rare than a so-so centerman. Wouldn’t you like to see a real power forward emerge? Not a Knuble, perhaps – but maybe a Milan Lucic?
And I still figure that anyone could play Girlyname’s spot just as well (and assuming that you don’t feel its an antiquated function at that). He has only ONE dimension, and at least Sestito has the POSSIBILITY of having a bit of scoring ability. And Rinaldo is a timebomb – I would argue against giving him a roster spot even if it meant I had to strap on the skates instead.
I suppose time will tell. But right now, seeing as Moore wasn’t getting a spot on the big club anytime before he was 40, and Chaput is years away, I think it was a decent move.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 1, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Sure I’d like to see a power forward emerge. But what’s wrong with JVR, Testwuide, and Hartnell?
As far as Shelley, this isn’t about him. He’s not going anywhere. If you want Sestito in the system, why acquire him at the deadline? Wait until the offseason and trade for an RFA, where the price is lower.
Yes, Rinaldo is a timebomb. But the organization likes him a lot. Whether or not Chaput is years away, he represents a skilled player the organization sorely lacks. The organization doesn’t lack big bodied players who can hit and fight.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
You may have a point about waiting for the offseason to get him – hard to judge, really. And I’ll concede the point about losing Chaput as a (theoretical) loss to the organizational depth. But if Sestito matures a bit in the AHL this year and can make the big club in 2012-13 (and yes, I am aware he’s not signed for that long), maybe he can replace that enormous Hartnell contract and give the team more wiggle room to resign JVR, Versteeg, and Betts (or a Betts-like player). With Maroon not panning out, there was a need for this kind of player just as much as there was for Chaput. And frankly, Rinaldo is more of an Avery-type player, while I’m assuming that Holmgren sees Sestito as being more in his own image – and that would be my preference for a roster spot as well.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree for now, and see how it goes in the next two years.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
I think I agree with you on Rinaldo as Avery (though considerably less skilled than Avery), but I’m not as high on Sestito as a lot of people seem to be.
Certainly, we’ll see whether he becomes anything or not, but I hate trading skill for size. You can get size anywhere for cheap (Testwuide? Maroon?), but you can’t get skill as easily.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Wish Travis had changed the misspelling in my headline so I wouldn’t be getting harrassed for my English skillz.
Hey, I tried to give you an out with the “mountain of data” excuse.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Or you could always claim that it is British English vs American English. People would buy it.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Just one Draft Pick, Moore was a UFA they signed during the off-season. I think they moved him to get rid of the redundant veteran.
Bodrov.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
In the links. He re-signed in Russia for two years, effectively ending any chance that he returns to the Flyers organization.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently nobody did.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Trade deadlines always start out with great promise then end with a whimper. You always hold out hope that your team will sucker another team into giving up a player that will make your team even better. Once I get past that, I have to admit, the Flyers did exactly what they needed to do. They got the winger Richards needed in Versteeg. They (possibly) got a verbal commitment to a contract by Leino. They got a veteran defenseman in Boynton. And, to top everything off, they sent two players who won’t matter in this playoff run for one that possibly could. No NHL players were lost — only picks from a lousy draft and two players not likely to matter much in the Flyers’ future. Nice haul overall.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
UPDATED: With many new links, but let me draw attention to the Hockey Prospectus article grading all the trades. Only Pronman mentioned the Flyers, so don’t think it’s an anti-Flyers link. It’s good to see Dale Tallon get lampooned too.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
Thanks… Good HP link. Vollman also gave a little indirect love to the Flyers in ripping the Leaf’s acquisition of Lupul.
I probably would have let this trade slide if they hadn’t also traded away Kris Versteeg, which strikes me as just the type of player they need to keep. Don’t get me wrong, it’s always nice to get first round picks, but he’s only 24, is far better than Lupul, and carries a cap hit of over a million bucks less.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 1, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Oh good, I was about to complain about the players having a “relaxing day” yesterday, but you added a link about Laviolette making them skate hard. I feel better now.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
[Boynton] announced his arrival in Philly with a thumping check to James van Riemsdyk Monday. That’s Boynton’s reputation; to play the game hard both when it counts and in practice.
I’m glad he didn’t hurt JVR, but I’m very pleased that he plays hard in practice. I like that mentality. How will you ever be ready for real games that count if you don’t practice like it? This thought actually translates directly to the music world, where they say “practice like a performance, and you’ll perform it like you practiced.” Music teachers are full of cheesy (but true) sayings like that. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Not a game, not a game, not a game…we talkin bout practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Tell that to Christina Aguilera, who apparently performed it exactly as she’d practiced, half-way.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Perfect practice makes perfect, was always our motto in band.
VERSTEEG never got "called up" to play in the NHL, he called up the NHL and the league jumped at the chance to play hockey with him.
So it’s (kind of) Gagne’s birthday? Where’s Kat? I’m surprised we haven’t heard anything from her on that topic.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
She wished him a happy birthday on facebook last night.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
In all fairness, not a lot of people have February 29th birthdays. It’s pretty easy to remember his, because even if you’re not a huge fan of Gagne his birthday is kind of a trivia fact
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
He’s a leap year baby, that’s easy to remember.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t yesterday Lindros’ birthday?
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I wished Simon happy birthday:
On my Gagne website.
Reporting also about it on the website Twitter page.
I posted about it on my personal Twitter. As you can see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here anddddd here.
As Shaun said, I posted my wishes on Facebook. (the link won’t probably work unless we’re friends on FB).
And also on Tumblr.
I was also retweeting different kinds of birthday wishes on the Gagne website Twitter page.
So, I basically looked in the one place you didn’t post it?
That series of tweets is awesome, btw.
And the FB link didn’t work, I might have to friend you so I can harass you elsewhere see it.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Haha, it seems so. And because I don’t want you to miss anything, here is what I said on FB:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MON FROMAGE! You lazy, overrated, always-injured, overpaid and useless bum! ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
And thanks! I’m glad you liked my tweets, hahaha.
Ok – How do you pronounce this name Sestito -
Is it Like Tito but with Ses in front of it ?
FLYERROB ! YOU STAY AWESOME FLYERS FANS ! www.naawayland.com Robert Wilson
That’s what I’m assuming.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
That’s the assumption I’d go with. I looked, but neither Columbus nor NJ thinks it’s hard enough to pronounce to put phonetics in their media guides.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
I’d be more inclined to take “Philadelphia’s overall direction is the worst deal” if the guy provided anything other than pure conjecture as to why it would happen. Their system isn’t sucks right now so they’ll hit a wall in 5 years…when their core is in their prime? The Flyers at least have defensive depth in the system, which is really where they most need it considering the age of Pronger and Timonen, plus they finally have a young goalie that may just pan out. Hit a wall? I’ll believe it when I see it
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 10:34 AM EST reply actions
Pure conjecture?? Pronman’s basically pointing out that the team has a recent habit of trading away it’s high draft picks and questions the offensive talent in their system. It’s valid criticism, although one can certainly debate the value of such picks, especially when we get gifts such as Leino.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 1, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Yesterday’s trade made so sense to me at all, unless they wanted to have someone they could add to the team just in case of additional injury in the playoffs.
The Flyers are only thinking Cup right now. That’s it. I hope to God they win.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
debate the value of such picks
when we have 5 top 9 forwards under 26 on the roster.
Versteeg, Giroux, JVR, Richards, Carter
(Almost) Guaranteed to Be Here Two Years from Today
March 1, 2013:
Forwards: Briere, Richards, Carter, Giroux
Defense: Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Bartulis
Goalies: Bobrovsky
Two of our “five top-9 forwards under 26” may not be on the roster (JVR and Versteeg, though I assume efforts will be made to sign both).
Defensively, Timonen will be in his last year. Pronger will probably be seeing less time on the ice, and Bartulis is still a question mark (who will also be in his last year).
What is the rest of the team going to look like? No one knows for sure, but it sure as shit would be nice to have some home-grown talent waiting in the wings.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Putting a rookie goalie from Russia who had a great first year with the Flyers on that list is tempting fate, Mike. Please spin around three times and hum the Finnish national anthem as to appease Kimmo.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
The criteria for that list was, “Who is under contract through 2012-13?” The players listed will all be under contract at that point.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Ahh. i see. Didn’t read the whole discussion.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
That’s kind of my point. There appear to voids down the road and people keep mentioning them in a way that reads they’ll be left that way. I haven’t agreed with everything Holmgren has done but I don’t think he’s destroying the future. I don’t think it’s fair to say the Flyers will hit a wall in 5 years when no one has any clue what he do to fill those voids
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Since 2007, how many 1st and 2nd round picks are in the system?
In other words, assume 2-3 years after drafting to NHL. So from 2008 through 2011, how many players have even a 25% chance to make the NHL? 0? 1? Now do you see the problem which started this year and will continue for the next 5 years?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I recognize that it’s a problem, I just don’t see it as one without a solution. It’s too early to speculate about how screwed they are in 5 years when we don’t know what the cap will be, the talent pool they passed up on by acquiring established players, and if giving away first rounders will continue to be an annual thing
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
This isn’t about the Versteeg trade, so this isn’t about the unknowns 5 years from now.
It’s about trading every 1st and 2nd round pick for 4 straight years.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And I don’t think it will necessarily cause the Flyers to hit a wall 5 years from now, which is what this is about. If they continue, from this point right now, to give up first and second rounders every year, then I’d start to have a real problem with it depending on the return. I just don’t think that with the way the team is currently structured, giving up those picks the last four years means impending doom down the road.
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
And I do.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I realize. I’ll be proven right when the world ends in 2012 and Homer looks like a genius
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
At a 25% success rate the league average only 1 of those last 1st round picks through 2008 – 2012 would have even amounted to a regular NHL player.
Is this such a big deal 1 most like 3 line player over a 4 year span.
I have been a Flyers fan for 20 plus years and seen this organization fail make the playoffs only twice.
Players are players it doesn’t matter where you get them as you have them.
At a 25% success rate the league average only 1 of those last 1st round picks through 2008 – 2012 would have even amounted to a regular NHL player.
And yet, from 1999-2005, league average for 1st round picks was a 61.1% rate. In that time, the Flyers had succeeded on 71.4% of their 1st round picks. So… is this such a big deal that between 2 and 3 players are lost over a four year span?
How about the fact that they also traded their second round picks, which had a 24.3% success rate league-wide? So really, you’re looking at at least 3, likely 4 players missing.
I have been a Flyers fan for 20 plus years and seen this organization fail make the playoffs only twice.
And for 15 of those years, there was no salary cap. So those have no bearing on what we’re talking about.
Players are players it doesn’t matter where you get them as you have them.
But the players have to fit in a salary capped world, so it does matter what you pay them. Giroux, JVR, Nodl, Leino, and Bobrovsky = Chris Pronger.
Without those ELCs, you will have much fewer Prongers/Timonens/Brieres/Hartnells/Meszaros’.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
While it’s easy to say that, three of the forwards you mention are already making big money, and it won’t be long until Giroux will have to be PAID. There is something to be said about having an influx of young cost-controlled talent to pull out of the system each year or so given the cap constraints. Trading number 1 picks as an ongoing organizational philosophy will eventually have consequences.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 1, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Hockey Prospectus is Right
I really hope the Flyers win the Cup this year because their window of opportunity will not stay open that long.
The Flyers have a good deal of goalie prospects, which is nice. But honestly, that’s really the only area I’m feeling confident in now, re: their prospects.
As I was writing this, mantis toboggan posted this:
The Flyers at least have defensive depth in the system
Really? Where is it? And don’t tell me Syvret. Bartulis hasn’t been impressive, though he’s a bit younger. I still have hope that he can become a 6th man. Bodrov is as good as gone. I forget what’s happening with Lehtivuori right now. Marshall and Bourdon have disappointed so far, though they need more time. Gustafsson is the only defensive prospect who comes to mind.
So by “defensive depth” you mean Gustafsson and POSSIBLY Marshall, Bourdon, Bartulis? Maybe even Lehtivuori? I guarantee you that not all of those guys will crack the lineup with the Flyers, if even in the NHL.
And forwards? Wellwood may be able to contribute some day. Maybe Test-weed will surprise us too. The Flyers are fine with their current core of forwards, sure. Richards and Carter will be here for a long time, and hopefully Giroux, JVR, and Versteeg will be long-timers too. But the other eight spots will need to be filled sooner or later.
The Flyers have always been great at drafting and developing forwards, so I’m not concerned outwardly. However, they need to keep some fucking draft choices so they can draft and develop people.
Stanley Cup plz kthx. Because after this year and possibly next, I don’t want to think about what this team is going to look like.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I really think you are cutting the window a little shorter than it is.
You have 3 top pairing D-Men who are 25 and under in Mez Carle Coburn already on the team for the blueline so you really only need a couple 2nd pairing guys to step up from the system.
Will the team be as good as it is this year and next in the next couple of years no. But will the Flyers be completely screwed over NOT AT ALL.
There isn’t a real window to worry about it is just right now the team has its BEST chance. 3 years from now they are still going to be a very competitive team for sure. BOB will be seasoned JVR and Giroux might become stars and the organization will always spend money to get the Free-Agents it needs to replace those guys as needed.
The window close when Carter Richards and Giroux are no longer effective as long as we have those 3 guys on the team the team will be in the mix. And those 3 guys have a lot of hockey left under contract with this organization. There are the hockey equivalent of Utley, Howard, Rollins.
So by "defensive depth" you mean Gustafsson and POSSIBLY Marshall, Bourdon, Bartulis? Maybe even Lehtivuori?
Haha yes, I guess this is what I mean. But I with Coburn, Mez, and Carle you only need of those guys to turn into a top 4 defenseman. Look, I realize there are a lot of questions as to what this team will look like in a few years, but what team doesn’t have those? The core of this team is young and very, very good, something I’m starting to think people are taking for granted
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
A draft pick is only the possibility of an NHL player. That’s exactly what Marshall and Bourdon represent.
Let’s not diminish the assets we actually have.
Good point. A draft pick can yield anything. Could be Eric Lindros. Could be Alexander Daigle.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Alexandre Daigle sure is glad he got picked first overall, because “Nobody remembers Number Two,” amirite?
The Washington Capitals are clearly overly fond of Number Seven.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I understand that, but I was replying to the comment that “the Flyers have defensive depth in the system.”
We’ve said it on here a billion times: The Flyers SUCK at drafting and developing defensemen.
So when I saw that the team suddenly had defensive depth in the system, well, I couldn’t help but get… defensive.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
So by "defensive depth" you mean Gustafsson and POSSIBLY Marshall, Bourdon, Bartulis? Maybe even Lehtivuori? I guarantee you that not all of those guys will crack the lineup with the Flyers, if even in the NHL.
This is what I was keying in on, and I’d make that bet any day of the week. Even assuming you “everyday line-up.”
If the Flyers suck at drafting and developing defensemen—and thus, your disbelief in the prospects they have—it won’t help to get draft picks back to draft more defensemen. They should just be trading for defensemen, then.
They should just be trading for defensemen, then.
That’s pretty much the approach they’ve taken since 1981.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Some people seem to long for homegrown defensive talent though. I really don’t care where they come from, I just want good D-men. And good forwards. And good goalies. But I guess watching them grow from within our own system does have a warm-fuzzy feeling though, and a little sense of pride that “we raised this one since he was a wee mite on ice.”
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I’m saying they need picks to draft and develop players of all positions, not just defensemen.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Oh, I know. I just thought it was funny in the context of the Prospectus article that we have a position most people agree must be filled through trade, and not the draft.
I suppose my position on draft picks are that they give you a fraction of a chance—how large a fraction depends on draft position—at a low-cost, high-upside player. IF you already have young high end talent (Carter, Richards, Giroux, JVR, Steeg), it doesn’t hurt as much to plug the back-end with value contracts of veterans. That extends your window, and pushes the necessity of drafting new young talent a couple years down the road. So, I’m concerned about the Flyers fall, but not yet, and especially not during this year.
whatever happened to Pavel Brendal????
maybe the flyers could swap zherdev for him,,,,
by Elmo the faithful fan on Mar 1, 2011 11:18 AM EST reply actions
Is it Thursday yet?
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
shouldn’t you be gearing up for fantasy BB?
by Boundforbeach on Mar 1, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah. Waiting for rememberthephitans to respond to my message…his invite went to the wrong email address. Well technically it was right in that it was the listed address but it should have been a different one. So until then I’m pretty much hosed. In the mean time I need to pick up some fantasy baseball mags.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I don’t want go into Pronman’s take. I’ve had the argument before: Of course draft picks help. The Flyers are worse off in the future without them, because they won’t have a stream of young, cheap, and possibly talented players. But they aren’t anywhere close to screwed. It’s not credible to think their current trajectory of trading picks for NHL players and remaining a top contender is indefinitely sustainable, but it’s not a terrible idea to max out two or three years of Cup-winning possibility.
but it’s not a terrible idea to max out two or three years of Cup-winning possibility
No, it’s not. But if the Flyers win the Cup, they need to do what they did in the late 1970s (and what Colorado did in the late 1990s) in order to stay competitive AND prepare for the future at the same time – trade some of their “guys who know what it takes to win a Stanley Cup” to lesser teams (in terms of the standings) in exchange for draft choices or highly-rated prospects. This would allow them to maintain high draft positions and develop a number of prospects who have a chance of making the NHL, either with the Flyers or with other teams (via trade).
The more good stuff you have, the easier it is to stay competitive for a long period of time.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Sure, I just don’t get how shrill people are getting. The downslope won’t be as harsh as people seem to think, especially since we aren’t really unloading any picks of “high draft position”—they won’t be earning these organically.
My main point is that it takes luck to win the Cup. Right now, we are in a position where we can leverage a bit of our future against a small marginal increase in likelihood, but even if we start trending down, that doesn’t mean we’re suddenly non-competitive. It just means we’ll require more luck to get what we want.
Nobody is predicting Islanders-levels of suck. The Flyers don’t have ownership issues (which are always involved in shitty teams I.e. Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, etc.) so the decline obviously won’t be catastrophic.
But this isn’t “leveraging a little bit of the future”, it’s continuously leveraging the future (this is four straight years now) and relying on outside factors. Is it too much to ask for a Phillies-level devotion to the system??
Develop draft picks, trade them for high-end MLB talent, but KEEP developing draft picks. The Flyers are just gutting the farm for NHL-level talent. Does it help that they have young NHL players? Absolutely. But that just means the cap must continue to go up as they continue to receive raises. Otherwise, you have to replace them. Which would be awesome to have JVR, Giroux, Leino, and Nodl (representing half of the top-9) making roughly $3.5 million combined this year. Where does that level of value come from without top-round picks?!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But this isn’t "leveraging a little bit of the future", it’s continuously leveraging the future (this is four straight years now) and relying on outside factors. Is it too much to ask for a Phillies-level devotion to the system??
Obviously, there’s a pattern in the Flyers behavior, but that doesn’t predict future behavior. There’s a three to four year development cycle, and the Flyers have only started to trade away picks that will hurt them five to six years from now. They lost this year’s first, but they have next year’s.
I’m simply not panicking yet. A five year window is too large to predict these things. Also, I’m an optimist from March to July.
You have a point. It’s hard to predict the state of things five years from now. This franchise is usually a sought-after free agent destination, and the team has usually prospered by praying upon weak and inept ownership in signing away other team’s talent (cough, cough, Chris Gratton aside). But with the cap in play, you cannot devalue cost-controlled young talent and you can’t just blindly rely upon the fact that the future is unpredictable to justify what is starting to become a systemic problem in trading high draft picks over a period of years.
by Boundforbeach on Mar 1, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
3-4 year development cycle?
JVR – 2 years to NHL
Richards – 2 years to NHL
Carter – 2 years to NHL
Giroux – 1 year to NHL
Nodl – 1 year (then 2 more) years to NHL
Bobrovsky – 1 year to NHL
So, where are the first and second round picks from 2008? 2009? 2010? 2011? Not here. So this year, the Flyers got lucky with Bob and Leino, crisis averted.
Next year? Let’s hope the cap goes up a lot, or we lose Leino.
The year after? What then? This isn’t a far off problem, it was a problem this year, it is a problem next year, and it’s a problem the year after.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Leino will be resigned. The cap will go up. We have young players to be brought up for our fourth line and plenty of scoring talent on the team. 2012 we draft and sign young players. Where is the issue? Why is the sky falling?
I don’t even know what you’re arguing anymore, and why you’re doing it so loudly. I’m just going to opt out at this point.
And this: they got lucky with Bob and Leino, and that’s why they are having one of the best regular seasons in franchise history and will have a ridiculous amount of depth in the playoffs. I think with Boosh and a random third line talent substituted in they are still having a perfectly fine year, ending with a 4-5-6 seed and pushing for a Cup like they usually do. It takes luck to be one of the best teams in the league in any given year.
And it also takes skill. And draft picks on ELC (JVR, Giroux, Nodl). Which they do not have, because they’ve traded them all.
Which is the point.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It isn’t meant to be a lesson.
It’s a response to the suggestion that, without the luck associated with Leino and Bobrovsky, the Flyers would be just as good. Which isn’t my point at all.
My point is what I said above. The Flyers have a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks making key contributions to their “best regular season in franchise history”, on top of the luck. But they don’t have 1st and 2nd round picks coming up through the system any time soon, and you can’t count on luck.
So the Flyers right now are counting on the salary cap continuing to rise. Which is dangerous, and it will inevitably lead to more complaints about having a salary cap at all, simply because fans continue to be spoiled from years of being one of the NHL’s privileged teams. I.e. one of the reasons a salary cap was necessitated at all. We don’t live in that world any more.
Successful NHL teams need to receive top-9 (and realistically, some top-6) production out of multiple players making $1.5 million or less. The Flyers won’t have that very, very soon. Beginning next year. Which would have begun last year, had they not gotten lucky with Leino and Bob.
Do you see the circle? This was never meant to be condescending, but everything goes in a circle, and it gets rather frustrating when people dismiss the bend coming up. It’s there. It’s already here. The Flyers are simply riding on the outside of it, about to either take a sharp turn back inside the circle or veer off.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
You said it takes 3-4 years for draft picks to contribute. I listed current players on the roster – who are key contributors on this team – to disprove the notion that it takes 3-4 years from drafting to see the contributions.
And since you then said the problem is 5 years away – as a result of 3-4 years of development – I explained how the problem already manifested itself this year. But the team was bailed out of their predicament by losing out on Gustavsson, losing out on Rynnas, and getting lucky with Bobrovsky. In addition to being given Ville Leino for nothing.
The problem is here, but they have continued to avoid repercussions due to circumstances out of their control. Relying on that is dangerous, and not a solution.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And since you then said the problem is 5 years away – as a result of 3-4 years of development – I explained how the problem already manifested itself this year.
Except I didn’t say this. Pronman said “what happens five years from now,” to which I was pointing out that we have a couple of drafts between now and then. Losing one first-rounder is not the end of the world—but yes, of course the pattern of trading away all high picks is worrying and unsustainable. I don’t think the Flyers plan on continuing it forever. Maybe just in years where they “get lucky with Leino and Bob” so that their line-up is unusually talented.
That there’s a problem next year? And the year after? I’ll agree to. The Flyers will just have to deal. But my argument was that there’s plenty of time to replenish the stock of ELC-worthy picks in the next five years.
There’s a three to four year development cycle, and the Flyers have only started to trade away picks that will hurt them five to six years from now.
That’s what I latched onto. And since they’ve been trading 1st and 2nd round picks since 2008 – three to four years ago – those problems are now, not five to six years from now.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Then I phrased the sentence wrong. The picks that will be ELCs in 2015-16 have only begun to be traded. Of course, that’s not what a five-year plan is, so that was a comprehension fail on my point.
I realize that they’ve been trading picks forever, and it was the cost of getting the high-end talent they have. It’s a problem now that they’ll simply have to band-aid with good market buys on the third and fourth line. As you said, it’s a gamble on whether it’ll be worth it over the next couple years, but they’ll be competitive. It’ll be three to four years from now before they get ELCs, but they have top-end talent that might be able to float them until then.
Right. I’ve never said it will be a catastrophe equal to Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Chicago, or the Islanders.
But people – and not you – have this notion that the cap will keep going up, so who needs young talent? The young talent is on the NHL roster already!
And it’s maddening. Absolutely infuriating. Add up Giroux, JVR, Nodl, Bobrovsky, and Leino. You get $5.075 million spent on four top-9 forwards and your starting goalie. Next year, you’re going to spend more than that on Giroux and Leino alone.
How long can you do that by saying “well, the cap will go up.” But who replaces the value those players provide? Nobody, since there aren’t high end draft picks in the system. For another 3-4 years. And this is what nobody admits when the only response they have is “the cap will go up”.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not refuting the importance of having young, cheap talent coming though the system, nor am I defending the organizational philosophy of trading 1st and 2nd rounders every year. The Flyers have gotten lucky that they haven’t been stung by doing this yet, I will freely admit that. But they HAVE gotten lucky, and their situation isn’t nearly as dire for that very reason. They cannot continue to do this and expect the same results, but as of now their future looks fine
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
But they HAVE gotten lucky, and their situation isn’t nearly as dire for that very reason. They cannot continue to do this and expect the same results, but as of now their future looks fine
But this is the whole point. This year, they avoided the problem by finding Ville Leino and Sergei Bobrovsky. Then they compounded the situation by shedding Matsumoto, Maroon, Lehtivuori, a 1st, a 3rd, and Chaput.
Next year, they need the cap to go up, otherwise the problem intensifies. And the year after? They need the cap to go up. So saying this isn’t a problem is false. Saying it isn’t a problem any time soon is ignoring that it already is a problem, but Bob and Leino are around to to allow the Flyers leeway.
What happens next year when the Flyers will only have JVR and Bob on ELCs? Leino, Giroux, and Nodl will be off theirs, and suddenly those 5 key contributors making under $1.5 million each are now only 2 key contributors. With nobody ready to step up. It’s a problem.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
I guess it really all depends on who you think will, or can, stay on the roster for the foreseeable future. And again, that does depend on what the cap is. I agree with you that this will be a problem if doesn’t continue to go up. I just have a more optimistic view regarding the cap whereas yours is more cautious, which is obviously fine. I agree with your general philosophy on this, I just have a rosier view of the context
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
My opinion is that you shouldn’t set your organizational philosophy around the cap going up. If you can continually dump a high-salaried player for nothing, then trade a draft pick for a different high-salaried player (Gagne/Meszaros), good for you.
But I can’t imagine a time where an organization can field a competitive team without players on ELCs.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
By the end of the summer, you’ll see the big picture
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Just like last year? :-p
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking about this yesterday morning; for all the good Homer has done throughout the season, and I’ll admit he’s been a good GM, his summer can be judged by looking at the players who have gone through waivers this year. Leighton, Walker, Zherdev.
Mourning Gagne forever.
But they weren’t mistakes, because they aren’t hurting the team!
/Lanci
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
He did say waivers, so I hope you aren’t referencing 12.12.12
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Non-sarcastically, I agree with you.
I stayed away from him almost all year because the Giroux and Carter contracts were good. He even banked cap space.
And after giving him credit for changing the drafting philosophy (no more Klotz/Clackson types), this recent trade set me off again.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Haha an admittedly obscure American Pie quote. I agree with you, though. It’s a dangerous organizational philosophy. I just think/hope they can get away with it this time. When they made the Pronger trade I went on a tirade about how they wouldn’t have cheap talent coming through and would thus be screwed in the future. For some reason this blog is making me play Homer’s advocate
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
When they made the Pronger trade I went on a tirade about how they wouldn’t have cheap talent coming through and would thus be screwed in the future.
So did I.
For some reason this blog is making me play Homer’s advocate
WHAT?!? How?? I have been trying my damndest to have the opposite effect.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
I know! I think it’s because you’ve been so adamant about discrediting him. He drives me nuts sometimes but this is the best Flyers team I’ve ever seen, so he does deserve some credit
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Well, he had a good team coming into last year, but should have fired Stevens before the season. He didn’t. He had a good team entering free agency, but made a lot of bad moves which were infuriating.
It was never about the product on the ice. It was about the way in which he put a product on the ice. People always miss that distinction in my criticism.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
No I get that, and I feel the same way about everything you just said. I went into the summer with great expectations and came out of it fuming. It just seems the general tone here is often 100% negative with regard to Homer, even if in reality that’s not how people feel
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why Ben needs to write more. haha
And I tried to stay away from bashing him lately…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Haha true. That’s easy when he doesn’t do anything, odd Chaput/Testito trade notwithstanding
by mantis toboggan on Mar 1, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
haha, exactly.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Teams with lots of draft picks and a deep farm system have more advantages than other teams. For instance, most teams would be devastated to lose a top prospect and a 1st rd. pick for a rental D-man. But the Bruins have loads of depth at center and their second straight year with a lottery pick, so it’s not that big of a sacrifice. The Kings lost two picks and a former 1st rd. pick in Teubert for a power forward yet to fulfill his potential. But the Kings are so deep that the loss of picks won’t bother them and Teubert’s not even high up on their depth chart. Keeping as many picks as possible is a good, safe way to ensure the long-term success of a franchise. But you also have to know when to gamble, too, just like the Bruins and Kings have done lately.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Exactly. My problem is that the Flyers have been “gambling” for the last four years.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
One evening, in about 3 years - "For a new twist on the classic "Robbing Peter/Paul" idiom, the Darwin goes...to
…Paul Holmgren for his

Plundering of Paul to Pay Paul Ploy
I also think it’s possible one can go all in without creating a black hole where your team used to be.
So today my supervisors came into the press box and told me to “Pack my shit up” then they brought me into the marketing office and showed me my very own desk and mailbox. The mailboxes have the persons name and then their favorite team’s logo so mine has Flyers logo but says “Shaun Krieder- Graphic Design Intern: President of Dan Carcillo fanclub and winner of ‘Best Dressed Male in Marketing’”
Then I walk in the office and see the desktop of my computer (which I’ll never use because I do my work on my mac) Is Lindros laid out after Scott Steven’s hit (The work of my supervisor who’s a Devils fan), on the monitor is a shirtless picture of Jeff Carter catching a fish and on the wall is a framed picture of Dan Carcillo smiling with no teeth.
I think it’s safe to say they like me here. Pics to follow as a fanshot.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Hey, you’re working!
I’m going to start saying “Now, you’re working with Shirtless Jeff Carter!” much like one would say “Now, you’re cooking with gas!” or “Now, you’re playing with power!”
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I really hope this catches on. Pic is up as a fanshot now.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
I think we need to come up with some ideas for how Shaun can get revenge for the Lindros hit photo. Anybody have any thoughts?
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Screen grab from the Brodeur can’t stop a beach ball vid?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
How can a beach ball not stop a beach ball?
I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
I believe this is the one to beat.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I do like that picture though. Maybe I could incorporate the standings into that.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I used it on my blog when the Flyers beat the Devils. Thought it summed things up nicely. Especially since that’s Asham scoring that goal.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
http://flyersgoalscoredby.com/images/stories/standings.jpg
I propose this, as long as your boss doesn’t mind swearing
Awesome! Did you just start interning in design? For some reason I though you were in radio, (which is equally cool) and were building a portfolio doing freelance design. Whatever the case maybe you get a

I worked for a radio station but only monitoring their broadcasts. I started my design internship on Feb. 1.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
…but you can’t be president of the Dan Carcillo Fan Club if I am!!
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
Haha…don’t worry I’m not challenging the throne.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
Hockey Prospectus Is Biased And Wrong
It’s a site based on Hockey Prospects. That alone should tell you that they will hate a team who has no Draft Picks. Look, this is Hockey. Above all the other sports, Hockey is where Free Agents have the biggest impact. The Flyers are not at all shy about spending money on big name free agents, or putting together impressive packages to get good players.
Secondly, this is a very young team. And our older talent are the expensive ones, not our young stars. I love Kimmo, but we have his replacement in Carle (and his replacement in Gustafson). When Kimmo is gone, 8 million comes off the cap I believe. You don’t think we can sign good players for 8 million?
And, somewhat like Baseball, we can sign talent outside of the draft for our minors. It’s not exactly going to grab us goldmine players like in Baseball scouting other countries, but we’re not suddenly going to have a stagnant minors.
When is our next First Round Pick, barring future trades?
The Flyers are fine. We are one of the biggest markets in any sports, and one of the biggest in hockey. The team is not going to drop in quality because we have no draft picks next year.
For Example
Bobrovsky, while he was in the draft, was never drafted and went back to Russia. We signed him from Russia. Does he count as a “draft pick”? Or does he count as good, young talent? Hockey Prospectus get off this team.
He counts as a winning lottery ticket purchased to cover up previous short-comings.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, his point is more so that this team is allowed to be very good and deep right now this year because of the EL contracts of Giroux, JVR, and Nodl. You don’t get good EL contracts unless you have draft picks.
With the salary cap, it is necessary to have players that can contribute with EL contracts if you want to be a top tier team. Sure the Flyers can sign good players, but those good players come with a price tag. Having a system that develops draft pick provides a team with cheap talent that better allows them to get better FA’s.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
It’s a sure thing that when you say “we want you on our team”, they actually become your property.
Unlike free agency, where Bobrovsky didn’t have to sign here. Remember, he was their third choice (behind Gustavsson and Rynnas). But no, give them credit for having gold fall in their laps after squandering picks, shedding prospects, and not getting their first choice. Or second choice. Or even trading for Vokoun at the deadline last year.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Goalies are the most hot and cold thing in sports, way beyond past closers in baseball. Spending a lot of money (or gasp draft picks) on Vokoun would be dangerous. Squandering Picks? Shedding Prospects? What are you referring to? The numerous times the Flyers traded a young, excellent goalie prospect for an old, expiring 4th liner?
The Flyers have had goalie issues for the entire decade. In fact, probably since Hextall. But we’ve never had flat out bad goaltending. Goaltending is always a priority, but they obviously have had goal tending “good enough” to focus elsewhere with trades and drafts. And considering trading for one, that you may pay a huge price for someone who will bomb – I would think it prudent to not pull the trigger on that.
This hate on the Flyers picking up Bobrovsky is incredible. They scouted him, they signed him. If this was Phuture Phillies they’d be praising the Flyers right now.
I’m pretty sure you missed the entire point.
The point is you can’t count on the Bob’s of the world. Good job, the Flyer hit on him, but he wasn’t even their #1 target. So you can’t bank on the Bob’s of the world every year making up for never having 1st round draft picks.
It’s a pretty simple point, and one I’m not sure anyone can argue with and be taken seriously since it’s fairly obvious.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
You can’t count on goalies, ever. That’s my point. The Flyers lately have been going for young, cheap goalies they can take chances are. I feel finding a solid, reliable goaltender is a rarity. I’d love for the Flyers to find one, but the risk involved in acquiring one is much larger than some team would like.
Yeah, but you missed the entire point that you started with…you’ve changed it from Hockey prospectus being biased against the Flyers for not having draft picks (and your reasons for that not being a big deal), to finding goaltending.
Where are talking about why draft picks are important, and why there is validity to what one person on Hockey Prospectus, out of several who gave their opinions about the trade deadline, said. Which is the topic you brought up.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
This is a branch of the original topic that focused on goaltending, so here, the discussion is on goaltending.
No you branched off on goaltending by missing the point Geoff was getting at, saying Bob wasn’t plan #1 and isn’t a situation you can plan on for filling any position on the team via the method they used for Bob. You need draft picks to plan for that, first and second rounders. His point was that the method on which the Flyers got Bob was an outlier and not something any team should plan on.
So it wasn’t a branch,you misunderstood Geoff and went on a goalie tangent, I tried to point that out to you, and you continued to ignore the point and talk about goalies.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
2012, for the moment.
I mentioned this yesterday, but there’s a Draft pick tracker button the left sidebar of the main page. Travis/Geoff/somebody already did all the work to track them.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite part was being called biased with absolutely no indication as to why or for who.
by Corey Pronman on Mar 1, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite part is that the “indication” is like the first two sentences of what he said.
All kidding aside, I think both you and “Dr. Steve” are being overly harsh on this one. Keeping some draft picks around is a good idea, but it’s not the end of the world to trade some away either.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Yes my point is a site dedicated to Prospects is not going to like a team that traded theirs. That is the bias. They view the draft and prospects as an integral part of the sport, so a team without draft picks will not be viewed positively. Even though that doesn’t mean the Flyers made a bad trade – I mean, who would we get to draft in the first round this year?
My favorite part is you still have no idea what Prospectus means, nor what “Hockey Prospectus” does.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know it makes poorly laid out sites. So it seems to be an investment site of some sort, it’s still wrong. If that’s the main issue with what I said, then I think I made some pretty solid points, and you are overwhelmingly petty.
Haha, you have literally never visited the site.
Your claims of what it is make that abundantly clear. So since you’re wrong about what they do, your claim of inherent bias is so far off base that the entire comment is rendered moot. That doesn’t make me petty, it makes you a misinformed, lazy, and biased individual.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
When did you become the guy who initiated the name calling? I barely recognize you Geoff….
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t matter what the site does. They made a criticism I don’t agree with. What does it matter? Unless the aim of a site is to root for teams to fail, all hockey blogs and sites and fans should be wanting to see their teams succeed. I feel Hockey Prospectus, no matter what it is for, is completely wrong on this issue.
Now, what is YOUR problem with that?
1) Don’t trash a site and call in question their integrity when you a) have never visited the site; and b) don’t know what they do;
2) If you want every site to be a “rah-rah, go team” site, with only a rooting interest, have fun. I’ll continue to read, seek, and discuss differing opinions. Ones based in fact and not dismissed out of hand due to an uniformed claim of bias, based on an incorrect definition of the name held by the speaker.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 12:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Probably because your main reason for calling them bias is:
It’s a site based on Hockey Prospects. That alone should tell you that they will hate a team who has no Draft Picks.
That’s not fair of you if you don’t know what the site does. It’s fine if you don’t agree with them, that’s just a horrible reason, and unfounded. Just say you disagree next time instead of ripping on a site when you don’t know what you are talking about.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Yes, so I was wrong about the site’s main purpose and I was unfamiliar with a financial term. Is that a big enough pound of flesh to sate Geoff? You are more than welcome to post different opinions, and I really enjoy the large list of posts you find almost every day, but why attack me for not agreeing with it? If the point is discussion, then I think that is what is going on here. Don’t trash me because I don’t go “rah-rah, go team hockey prospectus”.
I’m not trashing you, I’m telling you why Geoff has a problem, and then to poo poo it off is just creating more of an issue. Don’t rip on a website without foundation if you don’t want to be ripped on for it.
I think that is a pretty fair rule. I’m more than happy to discuss why you think they are wrong, I just don’t buy in to ripping them on unfounded claims.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Okay, you know I think of you guys as my friends, but since it’s the guy’s first foray into a Fly By thread, can we start off with “educate” instead of “intimidate”?
Dr. Steve, As Don pointed out above, the premise of what the site got lost in translation. Hockey prospectus doesn’t discuss prospects, it analyzes what happened last season and uses statistics to develop a projection of how a team will perform this year.
As alluded to by the others, the discussion of wanting to see a five year plan is the opinion of one guy on the site. Coming from the standpoint of someone who analyzes the past to predict the future, he can’t help but wonder how long the Flyers will continue down this path.
Now, can we all calm down and try to get along?
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I’m trying to be polite while Geoff is going off. I posted just after Geoff, I was hoping to get it out before him so he wouldn’t go off on Dr. Steve again.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Don, I never meant to imply you started it, I just picked a spot to jump in before this got even more out of hand, and you had already blockquoted the source of the misunderstanding. So rather than quote it again I just started with your post. But everybody is getting their hackles up and I’d rather discuss rationally with the guy than put him through a hazing.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’d rather you feel welcome on the site, and you have the right to disagree. But we will point it out when things get misinterpreted; so if you want my advice, I’d recommend asking for an explanation when stuff gets lost in translation. It will be much easier in the long run to just say “Okay, so what does the site do?”. But it’s just advice, take it or leave it as you choose.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I know, it was just as much for Steve to know I’m not trying to attack him but rather calm the misunderstanding down.
I don’t want him to think I’m just jumping on with Geoff.
And also, don’t take Geoff personally, he is just very passionate about 1. draft picks, and 2. people having a basis when they rip on something. Geoff pisses me off as much as the next person, I just for some reason appreciate him for it haha.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Or…..
I was simply analyzing the Flyers from a future asset perspective, and given the current state or the organization in that aspect, not surprisingly the analysis was pessimistic.
Just about every top team—including the Flyers, manage to get production from young players on value significantly above what their contract would get on the UFA market. Who is going to be doing that for Philadelphia in 4, 5 or 6 years?
by Corey Pronman on Mar 1, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
You can even say two years, since only Bob is on an ELC in two years.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Kimmo’s cap hit is only 6.33M, it’s his salary that’s 8M. He was signed during an offseason where all UFAs were pretty much overpaid, too.
The trouble with saying anybody is ready to replace Kimmo is that we don’t always account for how good he is at covering up mistakes made by his partner. If Carle can get to that point where he is really effective at covering up another D-man’s shortcomings, he’s going to get paid pretty well for it when the time comes.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think 5+ million is the new cap hit limit for the Flyers, so if we resign Carle to replace Kimmo, we should save at least a million. But I really don’t want to think about losing Kimmo, he’s so quietly powerful. He doesn’t gets mentioned much but he does so much for this team. We will need to replace him with a good Dman, and I don’t think we’d find him in the draft.
I’m not sure how Carle’s next contract is going to shake out… it depends on if talks have begun for the new CBA or not at the time Homer decides to start thinking about an extension. Carle’s next contract will take effect with the new CBA, which likely will have changes to the salary cap structure. With no talks at this point, I can’t even speculate how different the cap will be; all I can speculate with confidence is that it will not be exactly the same as it is now.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Per my FB feed
Paul Holmgren at practice announced that Carcillo is sick & van Riemsdyk has a minor lower body issue. Both expected to be ok for Thursday.
Lower body issue, eh?
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Stubbed his toe while trying to get coriander seeds from his spice rack.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
You crack me up—you could pick any spice and you pick coriander. I have never used coriander in my life in a single recipe. LOL.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Hey don’t dis coriander, I have like 65 items in my spice cabinet
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I have same/maybe more—again, never used coriander. Then again, it is similar to cilantro, which I loathe.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Why does everybody think cilantro tastes like soap? I don’t get it.
I really only have it with chili, tacos, pho, this spicy-yet-polite salsa that I make, and the below-referenced chicken. But when it’s the right match, it is the right match.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
There’s a percentage of people in the world who taste cilantro as soap. It’s funny. Like the 10% of people who can taste artificial sweetners.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
You have a stat that says only 10% can taste the artificial sweeteners? I honestly think it’s higher than that. Every one of my friends that doesn’t regularly drink diet soda can, because I have them all to taste my drinks in restaurants so that I don’t get dangerously sick.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
My friend is a science teacher and we were laughing at her little experiment. It’s around 10% that can immediately taste it. She pointed me to a research paper on it, I’ll see if I can find it.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
I wonder if part of that is a desensitized palette. When I was a kid, artificial sweeteners weren’t in everything. Now kids eat them constantly: Children’s vitamins, triaminic, 25% less sugar granola bars and cereals, multigrain bread, candy, reduced sugar juices, and on and on and on. When I was a kid, Triaminic, Wrigley’s gum, and Flintstones vitamins were all made with sugar, now they’re not.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t stand that stuff. I was so disappointed when I picked up a packet of cocoa at work that said “no sugar added” and what they meant was “fake sugar added.” Yuck. I would be quite happy with just having less real sugar. Chocolate needs just enough sugar to counteract the bitterness and no more.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I would give anything for just having to deal with the taste. I am dangerously allergic, to all of them. Like peanut allergy type allergic.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
What about Splenda, since that is just bleached sugar?
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Nope, I still get sick :( I don’t get quite as sick as the others though, Splenda won’t hospitalize me.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
What about Stevia?
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I don’t know why I’m asking you this, I’m just curious.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
It’s okay, it’s not common.
I’m not stupid enough to knowingly try Stevia, though. It wasn’t out when my doctors tested me for the others.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, that’s rough, considering everyone loves them now. Hooray! Less sugar! Less calories! How about you make food from real ingredients and just be smart about how much and what you eat?
Wow, I’m such a hippie.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
How does being sensible make you a hippie?
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Yeah, I can taste artificial sweeteners right away.
Can anybody else smell asparagus pee? (~22%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparagus#Urine_effects
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Yes, overwhelmingly.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Took me a long time to figure out the correlation there. And then wikipedia confirmed it.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
What’s the correlation? Something in the chemical compounds? /on medication, not thinking properly
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Yeah, certain compounds in asparagus are the culprit. The wikipedia article I linked above gives the details.
I meant the correlation between the smell and what I had eaten that caused it. It took me a while to figure out that a) it was caused by a particular food, not just random and b) that food was asparagus.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
I’m late to the discussion, but I can add some information here: cilantro has a couple of flavors in it. One of them is the strongest for most people and imparts a citrusy fresh flavor that overwhelms the others.
The percentage of people who think it tastes soapy don’t have the receptor for the molecule that causes the citrusy fresh flavor. So all they taste is the next-strongest one, which tastes disgusting and soapy.
Coriander seeds become cilantro when you plant them.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Is that true? I’ve been told that they are related but different. Either way, the leaves of coriander taste very much like cilantro. The seeds taste different, but still in the same vicinity of cilantro—at least enough for me to avoid it.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
You learn something new every day. Coriander and cilantro are dead to me.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
The leaves of coriander are cilantro, Mike’s right.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a decent amount of difference, since one is the seed the other is leaf. But cilantro is very love it or hate it; and I don’t think I’ve ever met a spice I absolutely hated. My spice rack is huge.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Would it be inappropriate to ask for a picture of your huge rack?
/kidding, couldn’t pass that up
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Nope, it was fair game.
But if you’ve ever seen Good Eats and how AB puts his spices in tins and velcros them to inside of a cabinet door; that’s what mine are like. Except they cover most of the surface on the full size door of my pantry.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
The only time I’ve ever used coriander is making beer cookies.
Yes, beer and cookies together at last.
I make a mean chocolate beer cake.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Maybe you should teach your next chocolate beer cake to be polite.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Haha, you never fail to give me a good laugh Mike
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Why? Everyone knows mean tastes better than nice.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I need to make you my polite salsa rojo.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I’ll have to counter with my Chili a la Detweiler.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
You’re my hero.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 1, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Did everyone see Video: Watch how an NHL trade call goes down?
I really, really enjoyed it.
Mourning Gagne forever.
Samsies.
I’ve often wondered what it would take to get a position in the NHL. What kind of degree etc
Mourning Gagne forever.
Haha what did you think he was doing? That was all contractual law. Bettman is a lawyer and so is that other asshole
Yeah but I could still determine whether the trades were within the law, and I’d do it for 2/3s the cost!
Mourning Gagne forever.
Ironically, Wiki writes most of my legal briefs for my law class. I mean…I mean I write the wiki page..
I have no problem letting the students I tutor use it, because for the most part the information is good. It’s the subjects that are the most inflammatory that aren’t fact checked and can be changed just based on peoples opinions.
The science ones are typically good, so you can’t knock it as an information resource. There is nothing better out there for getting a basic grounding in a variety of subjects
Mourning Gagne forever.
So how do I apply?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Write for a blog that is generally critical of NHL operations?
by Snevik on Mar 1, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, I stay away from NHL ops
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll work for the Flyers under Holmgren. I have no problem with that.
He might, though. Well, more specifically, Barry Hanrahan might.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I will anxiously wait for the day an NHL team needs a botanist.
I feel I’d be good at any of these jobs though
Mourning Gagne forever.
Answer to losing all those draft picks: grow the players in the lab!
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
Yeah I have a BS in Accounting and I am working on my Masters in Library Science. I have no real skills suited for any of the jobs posted except the retail ones and I don’t think I could sell Penguins stuff and not break out in hives.
Thanks for the Hockey Prospectus link. I may have to write an article about Seppa’s take — so many things I disagree with in one short paragraph! I wonder how closely he follows the Kings or the depth of our defensive prospect pool. And he’s upset about Sturm, even? He thinks it’s a relief that he’s gone, so I don’t know why. The Sturm experiment cost us nothing but a conditional 7th round draft pick, and I bet those conditions weren’t even met.
I’m pleased that Tom Awad likes the Penner move, though.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
You don’t like Seppa’s take?
I admit, he’s painting a broad brush, but I hate the Jack Johnson contract (before Doughty’s? For a one-way defenseman?) and I really don’t like Justin Williams’ (one healthy year and he gets a 4-year extension?). Further, he’s saying grabbing Sturm was a bad idea (which you seem to agree with) that was only resolved “luck[ily]” by Washington taking him.
I do (almost) agree with you on the Penner trade, but I don’t think it’s because of Teubert, I think it’s because of Teubert, a 1st, and a 3rd. Kris Versteeg wasn’t that expensive, so there’s where you see the “arguably overpays” part of Timo’s point. In my opinion, the Penner trade alone wouldn’t be bad. But a slight overpayment, coupled with two bad contracts and a high-risk/high-reward waiver claim, I can see his disgust.
Is that the worst move? No. The Frolik trade was bad, Anderson to Ottawa was bad, and a couple others. But I don’t think he’s far off.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I wish his reasoning on all of those points was more in-depth. But as is they seem facile to me, or at least not taking all the variables into consideration.
Sturm cost us nothing and others could have been sent to Manchester once we had Penner if Washington hadn’t taken him. He was a stopgap measure when Parse suddenly went out; Fleischmann was the only other LW that moved at the time, and he would have cost us Matt Greene at least. Since nothing was lost, I don’t understand people’s problems with his acquisition or his release. How is something that cost us nothing but some salary bad asset management?
In terms of Williams, the Kings’ biggest need is goal scoring. We have 5 (now, with Penner, 6) guys who do the bulk of it. Where would we have replaced that going into the offseason? McKenzie already noted that the FA market just got thinner when he was signed. He was going to be the top UFA RW out there. The health factor is a risk, but I look at the alternatives and don’t see many. Within the system it’d be Moller, not a natural RW. A good backup option if he goes down, but we don’t have so many skilled players we can afford to shed them. If the worse happens, they then look for replacements and have room if he goes on IR. He can also trade him at any time.
The Johnson signing is a bigger potential risk, as he’s not nearly on Doughty’s level yet (it amuses me when some fans say he’s been better than Drew), so I see what he’s saying there. However, everyone assumed he was going to demand more. His offensive potential has always been high; but in the latter part of the season, especially, he’s been getting better on the defensive side. If he becomes the player Lombardi expects he will be, it will be a good cap hit by the end. I can see where he’s coming from, but since we have bargain contracts in other places (Bernier and Quick, especially — I note he doesn’t even mention Bernier’s signing), it’s not breaking the bank. It will take years before I think we can conclude it was definitely good or bad. In the interim, we have enough room. Alternatives would have been trading him for a winger. We’ll see in time what the best choice would have been.
As far as Penner — people goggling at the cost don’t seem familiar with the Kings’ prospect pool, or how far down Teubert was in it. Even if only a few of our defensemen pan out, we will have to deal some of them at some point. We’re overflowing with D prospects. And any more skilled alternatives to Penner would have cost even more — and in Richards case, he wasn’t even on the market. Since we’ve had so many prospects stockpiled over the years, a mid to late first round pick doesn’t hurt. I’m with Tom Awad on that one.
I like Hockey Prospectus, but in Seppa’s case, it made me question how much he’d thought about this team or his response. It seems like observers are either picking at the holes in our roster or tut-tutting about the cost. One way or another, needs have to be addressed.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Since nothing was lost, I don’t understand people’s problems with his acquisition or his release. How is something that cost us nothing but some salary bad asset management?
See: Zherdev, Nikolay.
Re: Williams
I’m not saying Williams is bad, I’m saying a guaranteed four-year contract for a guy who played his 50th game in a season for the first time in four years this year is a bad idea. One healthy season out of four is not a good indicator for a four-year contract.
Re: Johnson
I love Michigan, and I hate Johnson. Does he have potential to be worth that contract? Sure. But the tendency to overpay offensive defensemen is frustrating, and I didn’t think Lombardi would fall into that. That’s a risk. And one I do not like.
Re: Penner
Like I said, it’s not about Teubert. It’s about relative cost in the market. If Kris Versteeg is worth a 1st and a 3rd, why is Dustin Penner worth a 1st, a good-great prospect, and a 3rd? It’s an overpayment, which could easily be justified by all the reasons your saying. But it’s still an overpayment. How much? Acceptable? Good trade? Maybe. But an overpayment.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Are you arguing that the Kings should have picked up Zherdev? I might have taken a shot on Z but I truly believe he would never have gotten along with Terry Murray. Sturm was acquired precisely because it was a low-risk acquisition that could have paid off. I truly don’t understand the argument against picking him up or letting him go again. Nothing has been lost.
For Williams, and for Mitchell, etc, Lombardi sees a trade-off with cap hit and injury risk. And he has backup plans for them all. Every move he makes, he plots out the effects it will have several years down the line. Johnson, I’ve said all I can. I wouldn’t have minded seeing him traded, but time will tell.
Finally, the people at Copper and Blue don’t consider the Penner return an overpayment at all. Quite the reverse. The Phoenix GM praised the move, too, and he has no reason to be biased. I think Penner is worth more than Versteeg, and I think he’s underrated — just as I think Teubert is overrated for his 1st round pedigree.
But “Was it overpayment?” doesn’t seem like the right question to me. Did it hurt the team to pay that price? In the Kings’ case, I’d give a resounding no. Our prospect cupboard is full to bursting and still is. They dealt the kind of asset which they have more than enough of to address an immediate, pressing need. It’s similar to Boston giving up Colbourne when they have so many centers — except Kaberle is actually a pure rental, and Penner only has one year left on his contract. If we never had room for Teubert in our lineup later on, even if he pans out, that looks like good asset management to me.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
No, I’m saying low-risk/high-reward types can be bad moves. Zherdev is an example.
And the people at Copper and Blue are smarter than Leafs fans :)
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
I’m afraid your point is still making a giant woosh sound as it passes over my head. :) I feel so dense.
The Kings were in a jam when Parse, slated to be the top line LW, got hurt before the season started. The trade market was pretty damn dead at that time. Then, a little while into the season, it was one of our shutdown defensemen for Fleischmann, Sturm for a conditional 7th, or nothing. And they worked around with nothing for quite some time. It wasn’t ideal. But they were waiting for another option to come up.
From my POV it’s not like they were passing up another, better option in favor of the Sturm experiment. They’d even tried prospects on their off wings, or natural centers at wing. Flash was out there, but then we’d have needed to go shopping for another experienced tough defenseman, and Matt Greene is actually the heart and soul guy of this team.
Anyway, good discussion!
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
haha, no worries. It was fun.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 1, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
If I tell you Teubert was once so obsessed with punishing Matt Calvert that he blew his defensive assignment and allowed a game winning goal, would that help? Hehe. Oh, and then there was the Stone incident.
He was drafted to be mean, and that is useful, but there are some concerns about his decision-making. I hope he gets it together, but he’s a long term project. Some of the reasons why we weren’t upset to lose him, and a lot of Oilers blogs are pretty steamed.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
That might help, yeah. haha
Nobody takes a run at Matt Calvert.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of fake Twitter accounts
Fake Bobrovsky gave me a laugh.
I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
I want to be worried for the future of the Flyers, but I’m of the opinion that it’s a desirable hockey location. I still see Bobby Ryan coming to Philadelphia down the line. No, I’m not too worried about Philadelphia being bad in the future
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 1, 2011 5:34 PM EST reply actions
"van Riemsdyk has a minor lower body issue."
Was this from the hit he took in practice from Boynton?
I’m more inclined it’s related to when he tweaked his groin a month ago, personally.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 1, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions

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