Simplify scoring: drop the pointless secondary assist
We credit two assists on most goals. But do both passers really deserve credit?
The numbers suggest that secondary assists have very little connection to a forward's talent level, and that we would do better when evaluating forwards to ignore them altogether. After the jump, we'll walk through the data that supports that conclusion and talk about its implications.
Certainly there are some instances where the secondary assist is a valuable contribution. Here's an example where JVR's pass creates the scoring opportunity and he completely deserves the point that he's awarded:
And yet there are also instances where the secondary assist is not much of a contribution. Does anyone think that the point that Ville Leino registered in the video below from the same game reflects any particular skill on his part?
Of course, we could pick out individual examples all day and not get any closer to answering the general question. We need to frame a question that looks at whether secondary assists reflect a talent in general.
Here's the approach I'm going to take: I'm going to assume that if something does reflect a talent, then it should persist from year to year -- you should expect that how a player does in one year will be at least slightly predictive of how he will do in the next year. If that's true, then we'd expect to see a correlation between players' results in one year and their results the next year. (Here's a reminder of how we look for a correlation.)
I expect to see quite a bit of fluctuation -- from shooting percentage luck, from teammate changes, from injuries, from aging, etc. So let's start by removing whatever sources of variation we can.
- We will use only even strength numbers, so we won't get fluctuation from people's power play time (or luck) changing.
- We'll use rate statistics (events per 60 minutes of ice time), so that we won't get fluctuation from people's ice time changing.
- We'll only compare seasons where the player played at least 60 games in both seasons, so that we reduce the fluctuations that come from luck in short seasons. This still leaves us with 460 data points from '07-08 to '09-10, which should be plenty for drawing out trends.
All of that will help, but there will still be quite a bit of fluctuation. So let's start with something we all know to get familiar with these numbers and get a sense for what we should consider significant. We pay a lot of attention to goal scoring, so we have an intuitive sense for how much goal scoring changes from year to year. Let's look at what the numbers say about it.

So now you're calibrated -- something with a correlation coefficient (R2) of 0.22 fluctuates about as much as goal scoring does. A correlation of 0.22 actually means quite a bit of fluctuation (just ask Alex Ovechkin), but I think we all believe that scoring goals is a talent, so this tells us that we should consider a correlation near or above 0.22 to show that something is a result of a player's talent.
Next, let's see how much primary assist rate changes from year to year.
The correlation coefficient of 0.18 is a bit lower than for goal scoring, but there's still a clear persistence of primary assist rate. Someone who sets up a lot of goals this year probably has vision and puck control skills that make him likely to do so again next year. Is the same true of secondary assists?
No. The correlation rate on secondary assists is much lower, only 0.05. If talents like vision and puck control help a guy get secondary assists, they sure don't help much -- the guy who leads the league in even strength secondary assist rate one year is only slightly more likely than Jody Shelley to lead the league next year, and he's almost as likely as not to be in the bottom half of the league.
Let's make one more refinement on this analysis. Since you need a teammate to score the goal, we might expect that assist numbers would show a significant dependence on your teammates. What happens for the guys who change teams?
Let's start by looking at primary assists. Overall, the correlation between what players do one year and the next was 0.18. Is it much lower when there's a team change in between years?
No. When a player moves to a new team, he takes with him the playmaking skills that allowed him to have a high (or low) primary assist rate -- the correlation is nearly as high as if he didn't change teams. Let's ask the same question about secondary assists.
We saw very little persistence of secondary assists in general (0.05 overall, see above). And now we can see that whatever persistence there was appears to be entirely due to the quality of the offense the player played for -- when he changes teams, there is zero year-over-year correlation in his secondary assist rate.
So in the end, we're left to conclude that -- at least for forwards, at even strength -- secondary assists aren't really a talent at all. By including them in people's point total, we're just adding noise, and making it harder to tell who's having a good season. Here are a couple of examples where that may have steered us wrong.
- Last year, Claude Giroux averaged a pathetic 0.06 ES A2/60 (even strength secondary assists per 60 minutes of ice time) despite a passing skill that allowed him to have 0.95 ES A1/60. The low secondary assist rate probably cost him about 10 points and kept the world from getting as excited about him as we were.
- Derek Stepan might be similarly underrated for the Rangers this year. His A1/60 rate is a very nice 0.74, but his A2/60 rate is 0.20. A little more luck on the secondary assists and he'd be a strong Calder contender.
- Jamie Benn looks to be a very nice player, but his year-over-year growth isn't quite what it looks like. He's benefitting from the 10th highest secondary assist rate of any forward this year, and we shouldn't count on that continuing.
Here's the good news: because many goals don't have a secondary assist, secondary assists make the smallest contribution to point totals. So even though secondary assists just add noise (luck), they don't add enough noise to do too much harm. But since they certainly don't seem to add any value, let's focus on goals and primary assists when evaluating forwards from here on out.
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I long suspected this, and I support the separation of primary assists from secondary assists for the purposes of advanced metrics. I do think we should leave well enough alone for everyday counting stats, though. Getting rid of secondary assists would require a rewrite (or reboot) of the scoring record books, and I don’t know if it’s worth that.
by JustinM on Mar 15, 2011 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, record books matter.
I agree completely — I’m not expecting the NHL to change the standard boxscore, but I’m hoping that we can start paying attention to G+A1 in this community as the more useful metric.
Yeah, record books matter.
But… those records will probably never be changed anyway.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I think they are speaking more about the comparison between modern and historic players? Obviously, the game has changed, some the numbers won’t be touched, but if Gretzky has the noise, Crosby deserves the noise would be the argument.
I don’t care personally, but I’m sympathetic to the argument. I think you’ll get more support for with a G-A1-A2-Pts split (although people will hate the extra column).
haha, I completely understand the argument. I just don’t like how he phrased it.
There’s an emotional attachment (not to mention comfort level and familiarity) with long-held records. They’re a bridge to the past that most people love. But… “record books matter”… To most people. And not for completely rational reasons.
I’m pretty sure Gretzky would still rock the assist category if he never got credit for his A2s.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
If there were no secondary assists, Nikolay Zherdev would only have one assist on the season.
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by Ben Rothenberg on Mar 15, 2011 10:07 AM EDT reply actions
If +/- is worthless and secondary assist is worthless how do you plan to easily identifying players who produce positively while on the ice.
Sometimes the secondary assist is the best pass in a play, ie. pretty much every rebound goal. The primary assist is going to a player who shot but but didn’t score.
More stats the better you can filter through the basic stuff and get a pretty good idea then go into the advances stats to distinguish players with similar numbers.
Did you read the article???
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s the first sentence that I love.
It’s the second sentence that proves he didn’t read.
It’s the third sentence which proves it is, in fact, Chris Lanci typing those words.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I missed this site while I was away, mostly for this.
And why isn’t Lanci’ing in the dictionary yet?
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Because you haven’t added it.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I figured you were the wordsmith, so I’d let you have at it.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
But you’re the most experienced, so you should at least offer a framework.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, I’m not a regular enough comment reader to know for sure what your third sentence means…
He loves him some plus/minus.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay so now over the course of this year we have statistically contributed “luck” and not “talent” to shooting percentage, GAA, +/-, and now assists. Determined that defensemen don’t contribute to GAA or save percentage and fighting doesn’t effect outcome or deter dangerous play. (going off of memory so I might have missed or added something in there please correct me)
Yet consistently from year to year the same best players. For a game that is statistically so based on luck and not talent there seems to be a lot of consistency each year. And you can pretty much predict from the start of the year which team is going to be good (most points) and which team isn’t. There are very few surprises if any.
Luck IMO comes to play significantly in only two aspects of the game.
1) Injuries
2) The one thing you care about most in this whole world (besides Brian Boucher) Draft Picks.
You still haven’t read the article? Amazing. Simply amazing.
Assist 1 is talent. Shooting percentage is talent. GAA is talent, but probably not of the goaltender. And we have better measures than +/-, because it doesn’t give us very pure information.
I would like a complete rundown of what is talent what is luck and what defensemen actually do effect. For the record.
Shooting percentage is talent, it’s not luck. There’s a reason some guys have better ones than others. Luck plays a factor, but why wouldn’t it?
GAA is luck because it’s influenced primarily by people the stat isn’t supposed to describe: the players in front of the goalie.
+/- is almost all luck because you constantly see people on the ice for goals they had nothing to do with.
Defensemen (and forwards!), at the most basic level, affect number of shots allowed and blocked shots. Everything else pretty much stems from that.
You’re getting confused about the short term and the long term.
For example: shooters do have a talent that determines their long-term shooting percentage. But there is tremendous variation above and below the talent, so that people can run well above or below their true talent for a long time, even multiple years. We call that short-term variation luck.
To go a step further: every stat has luck in it.
For some stats, the luck evens out quickly. For some stats, the luck takes a long time. For some stats, it never evens out because it has very little to do with the individual player’s talent.
The reason we like Corsi is that it’s been shown to even out the luck very quickly, so that you can judge how a team is playing after just a few games. The reason we don’t like goalie wins is that the luck (of being on good teams) would take several careers to even out.
“Long term” and “short term” are not concrete terms; they are contextually dependent on the amount of fluctuation in a statistic being studied. For any given stat, we can look at a large enough sample size to get a sense of the long-term talent and then look at a smaller sample size to see how much short-term luck there was. That doesn’t make that stat inherently about luck, it just means that over that small sample size luck played a contribution.
Well, for the things you listed:
Shooting percentage: Individuals have shooting talent. We take the five year average to be significant enough proof. Teams do not have sustainable shooting talent.
Assist 1: Huck shows that this a repeatable talent, and that Assist 2 is probably not a repeatable talent (among forwards). Especially given the numbers of players who have moved, it seems Assist 2 has more to do with the players you happen to be around.
GAA: The best defensemen drive down shot totals, which drives down goals against. Further, defensive systems can drive down shot totals, to the same effect. They can also, in some cases, drive down shot location and rebounds. This is reflected in a higher save percentage for goalies within these systems.
Injuries: I’m pretty sure team health is a talent. Don’t quote me on this, I need to find the article.
+/-: Mostly environmental.
Other people have a better handle on these issues than I do. They should feel free to correct anything I got wrong.
Writing these articles in a well-structured and easy-to-comprehend manner: talent
Getting you to read them: luck
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by hintzy64 on Mar 15, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wow, you totally missed the point of luck and what it gets applied to, even in this article. And you missed the point of pretty much everything you used as an example any time we’ve talked about it based on the way you are applying those terms.
sigh.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
We have had these conversations on all these topics, with you, there is a search feature on this website where you can go back and find them all.
At some point you have to retain what we say or link you to read, not just have us repeat it over and over, only to have you once again misrepresent it.
Sorry, it just gets old. Maybe Eric will point it all out to you, he has more patience.
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Is this the right room for an argument?
Damn, why did everybody have to beat me to it.
If you don’t see luck in wins, goals, assists, and many, many other aspects of the game, you clearly don’t see pucks bounce.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
/shhhhhhhhhhh
Seriously, though, I keep coming back to Edmonton’s run in ‘06. People have tried to convince me that, because it happened at all, it wasn’t luck.
Yeah, they were 41-41 in the regular season. But then they went 15-9 in the playoffs and proved that they were really an elite team. What’s so hard to understand?
Nothing. Hot goalies, Pronger, and Pisani. End of story
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by red army line on Mar 15, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I still hold that if Marc-Andre Fleury doesn’t make that save on Jeff Carter with his toe in Game 2, the Flyers very easily could’ve won that first round series.
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by Travis Hughes on Mar 15, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s easy to say other teams were lucky. But people fight when you call their team lucky.
The Flyers weren’t lucky to win the East, but the Canadiens were lucky to get to the ECF.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d wager that any team who makes it that far through the playoffs had luck on their side. Call the Pens lucky that year, I don’t mind.
Of course you don’t mind, you’ve won a cup. Meanwhile, we’ve seen a bunch of Flyers teams get far and then lose. Luck and nothing to show for it is the worst of both worlds.
…so you mean TWO finals losses were Carters fault? Damn.
/sarcasm
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by Cillo stache on Mar 15, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. Which is why the Caps just aren’t built for the playoffs, but the Flyers were the best team in the East last year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that “Caps aren’t built for the playoffs” stuff bugs the crap out of me, and I don’t even like them. Goal differential is goal differential no matter how you arrive at it.
Thank you! I’m the same way. Those people forget (more like ignore the fact) that the PP converted on 3% of their chances last year, their goalies gave above 0.920 ESS%, and neither Green nor Semin scored a goal against the Canadiens.
And goal differential isn’t wins. The Caps just aren’t clutch and can’t win in the playoffs.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you ever seen a hockey game? You don’t bounce pucks. I think you’re talking about basketball buddy.
What can't Giroux do?
by tmurder on Mar 15, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
You deserve a rec.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
But how significant is that luck.
It was really significant I don’t think we would see consistent scoring leaders from year to year and even consistent production from players throughout the season.
The large sample size of 82 games should eliminate any luck from mattering significantly to your stats. Your probably get a lucky goalie and have you stick break on an empty net to cancel that out on average. As luck is random and completely unbiased.
When it comes to the playoffs the 7 game series should practically eliminate the luck factor as well.
I guess I’ll answer you, though I can see why people are feeling disinclined to explain this to you knowing they’ll just have to do it again next time.
It was really significant I don’t think we would see consistent scoring leaders from year to year
Alex Ovechkin averaged 60 goals per 82 games over the last three years. This year he has 28.
Patrick Marleau had 44 goals last year, two years removed from a 19-goal season.
Ilya Kovalchuk averaged 48 goals per 82 games since the lockout. This year he has 25.
Dany Heatley averaged 45 goals per 82 games since the lockout. This year he has 22.
Remember the conversation a few weeks back about how we wanted everyone to stop referring to Jeff Carter as a 46-goal scorer?
There is a huge year-to-year variation in goal scoring, which derives in large part from the fact that shooting percentage luck doesn’t even out on a one-year timescale.
and even consistent production from players throughout the season.
My mind is boggled. You don’t think people go through hot or cold streaks?
The large sample size of 82 games should eliminate any luck from mattering significantly to your stats.
Obviously that depends on the stat. Some stats even out much faster than 82 games and some take much longer. If you think 82 games is long enough to average out luck for any statistic, then I’ll ask about games played — was 82 games long enough for any luck to average out in the number of games Sidney Crosby was going to play this year?
When it comes to the playoffs the 7 game series should practically eliminate the luck factor as well.
Again, my mind is boggled. You really think seven games is a large sample size? So Alex Ovechkin’s two 8+ game goalless streaks this year proved that he’s a zero-goal player? But his team’s current 8-game winning streak proves that they’re never going to lose again?
by Eric T. on Mar 15, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are awesome. The patience you possess needs to be bottled and sold.
But because I love sarcasm, let me “Lanci” you.
Alex Ovechkin averaged 60 goals per 82 games over the last three years. This year he has 28.
Patrick Marleau had 44 goals last year, two years removed from a 19-goal season.
Ilya Kovalchuk averaged 48 goals per 82 games since the lockout. This year he has 25.
Dany Heatley averaged 45 goals per 82 games since the lockout. This year he has 22.
Remember the conversation a few weeks back about how we wanted everyone to stop referring to Jeff Carter as a 46-goal scorer?
The Caps instituted a new system, therefore Ovechkin’s number are correct. Marleau simply developed into a legitimate scoring threat alongside Thornton and Heatley. Kovalchuk floundered under a coach who wanted him to play defense, but now his coach lets him play his game. Heatley is past his prime. He’s 30 now.
And Jeff Carter is a 40 goal scorer because he did it once and he can do it again.
My mind is boggled. You don’t think people go through hot or cold streaks?
Sure, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t consistent.
If you think 82 games is long enough to average out luck for any statistic, then I’ll ask about games played — was 82 games long enough for any luck to average out in the number of games Sidney Crosby was going to play this year?
I’ve already said injuries are luck.
Again, my mind is boggled. You really think seven games is a large sample size? So Alex Ovechkin’s two 8+ game goalless streaks this year proved that he’s a zero-goal player? But his team’s current 8-game winning streak proves that they’re never going to lose again?
The playoffs are a different animal. You can’t compare an 8-game regular season stretch to a 7-game playoff series. Systems change, players are amped, and the good ones rise to the top. Mark Recchi isn’t lucky, he’s clutch. Alex Semin isn’t unlucky, he’s soft. Tomas Vokoun isn’t unlucky, he’s overrated. Chris Osgood isn’t lucky, he’s HoF worthy.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
This is excellent stuff, Huck, and it’s amazing there hasn’t been more work on it. Hopefully, it gets the due attention.
As far as NHL and the record books go we should not change anything about how the NHL handles the scoring. But after reading this article I’m 100% changing how youth hockey and juniors handles assist counts. If we eliminated the secondary assist in all lower level hockey leagues we would get a much better understanding of how a player will perform year after year.
I would like to see this same analysis with Forwards seperated from defenseman.
I haven’t looked at defensemen yet. I’m harboring a hope that we’ll see a different story there, that the secondary assist is a sign of a puck-moving defenseman.
If so, I’ll definitely write about it. If not, I’ll probably just slip a little update on the end of this.
I don’t really understand this. You understand that A2s don’t tell you anything about a player and therefore don’t want them in lower levels, but still want them in the NHL because… they currently are? This middle ground would only be more confusing.
As far as the forward/defense separation, I had the same question. What you see above you is only forwards. I’d really like to see defensemen too, since I imagine they have a higher correlation to A2s, if still statistically-insignificant.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Not all foreign leagues, IIRC, count the secondary assist. I don’t think it’s a huge problem either way so long as we know about it when looking at stats.
Definitely. But if you’re going to change Juniors and College scoring, why stop there?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, if you have unlimited power over what to change, and in which leagues to change it, aren’t there more important things to sort out than what information we see in box scores?
Tracking information never hurts, the A2 just doesn’t seem to be that useful (for forwards, if this two-season comparison holds true over time).
Ugh, there list of things lower levels need to track could go on forever.
We could simply start with ice time in the AHL. Go from there.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, got me. But like I said, I don’t see any reason to change the simple stats anyway. We know what’s meaningful and what isn’t, so give the regular fan something to hang on to.
You and I have different philosophies, then.
I’d vote to abolish plus/minus altogether. And goalie wins. Get rid of them.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
And I love it.
Sadly, casual fans eat that stuff up. Before last night’s SJ-CHI game, we had to hear how often Niemi and Crawford won in the past month. I don’t care. They play on good teams. That doesn’t tell me anything about how well those two have played. Games started tell me more than wins.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, doesn’t stop Niemi from being overrated (and guys like Vokoun from being criminally underrated).
What?? He’s started 25 games in a row. And just signed a ridiculous extension. Oh, and he has a Stanley Cup. What has Vokoun ever done?
/ dripping with sarcasm
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Ward started 24 in a row before Car-Chi, and is at 27 of 28 now. I wouldn’t be surprised if that ends up 40 of 41.
Lundqvist will probably finish with the last 26 thanks to Biron’s injury.
Being on the bubble is fun. I don’t know what Vokoun’s excuse is, however.
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by George E. Ays on Mar 15, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right. Whoops.
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by George E. Ays on Mar 15, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess there is really no legitimate reason for me to feel that way about keeping it at the NHL level. I would like to wait out the stats for defensemant before I set myself on one side of the fence on this issue.
No worries. It’s not that you’re wrong, I just don’t understand the middle ground. There are reasons to keep it (record books, year-to-year familiarity, etc.) even if I disagree with them. It’s just the different scoring systems for the most common leagues I don’t understand.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Reading this pointed out the main flaw in my original comment. The need for consistency in stat-keeping at all levels should be important if we are to track progress across leagues for developing players.
Right. It’s one thing for European leagues, it’s another for North American.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one who doesn’t give a shit about records? Equipment changes, workout routines change, players evolve, the game evolves. I’m fine with records being a glimpse into that era of the game and nothing more.
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No, you’re not. I’m just practicing my “some people care about that sort of stuff” empathy.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Came across really well if you were wondering.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 15, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, thanks. I try.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure which comment about the record books to reply to, so I’ll keep it separate. I don’t believe I would advocate doing so, but it’d be pretty easy to retroactively eliminate the secondary assist, if that was ever deemed as a direction the league wanted to go.
To the content of the article, I would like to see the correlation of total assists from year 1 to year 2 over the same data set. I’m curious if there’s a stronger correlation of players to be involved in the scoring play, as opposed to strictly whether the involvement came from the first or second pass.
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That’s a good point, actually.
Eric?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Total assists do seem to have a slightly higher persistence than primary assists:

But again…if the persistence of secondary assists disappears when a player changes teams, doesn’t that suggest that including them only increases the impact of being on a good offense? Removing noise by increasing the impact of something that persists but is out of the player’s control doesn’t necessarily seem like a good thing.
I think sample size is an issue with regards to players changing teams. Before my eyes crossed over, I counted only 34 dots on the changing teams chart. There are enough other factors (age, linemates, zone usage) that I think there’s some doubt as to whether or not that would eventually converge on the total player base.
I could be wrong of course, since the primary’s correlated just fine.
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by George E. Ays on Mar 15, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty good counting — there are 35 players in the changing-teams chart. I’m also nervous about that sample size, and it’s the thing I’m most intent on updating going forwards, but the contrast between A1 and A2 seemed so stark there that my inclination was to interpret it as above.
But like you, I reserve the right to be wrong.
Thanks for slapping that last graph up BTW. I appreciate it, and enjoyed the article alot.
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by George E. Ays on Mar 15, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this.....
because it turns out i didnt care about secondary assists to begin with. :P
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Huck, where were you grabbing stats that differentiate between A1 and A2? I’ve been wondering about those numbers for a longer-term project of my own.
Bob.
Simplify scoring?
I do have to question … when did it get confusing?
When you have to go back 20 seconds to see who deserves a secondary assist?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Access to Data on Primary Assists and Secondary Assists
Is there a site that has this data readily available for review and analysis? I would be curious to look at the data on the Flyers
Go here, it’s the fastest way to grab a look. You can change the drop downs to change situations (ES vs PP vs PK, Forward vs D, GP’s, etc). If you want, you can also pull the data from the NHL, but Gabe has done that for you on his site. A1 is primary, A2 is secondary. This is all done per 60 minutes, which you can back out to the whole number if you’d like.
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Is this the right room for an argument?
I think we need to get rid of all stats and base everything solely on the eye test. That is the only fair way to do it.
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Ugh, too real.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing that always bugs me when people write stats posts is when people talk about correlations meaning something without calculating significance values. An r^2 of 0.05 can probably be assumed to be insignificant, but r^2 around 0.20? Really depends on the dataset. Maybe it’s significant for 500 data points, but not for 50. Correlation is meaningless if you still have a reasonable probability of the effect being random. I don’t know if you need to go so far as setting p < 0.05 as your significance level, but at least stating what your accepted significance level is in advance, and whether your data reach that or not, would make statistical support for your conclusions much stronger.
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Using this calculator, I get the following null-hypothesis probabilities:
All three measures (G/60, A1/60, A2/60) have significance threshholds of below 0.0001 when using the full 460-player dataset.
When looking at the 35-player changed-teams data, the probability of getting this level of positive correlation for primary assists from a null-hypothesis random dataset is 0.0064.
When looking at the 35-player changed-teams data, the probability of getting this level of positive correlation for secondary assists from a null-hypothesis random dataset is over 30%.
All of which, I believe, supports the conclusion that players have talents for primary assists that result in consistent rates from year to year, even when they change teams, but that players have very little control over their ability to get secondary assists — no better than random when they change teams.
by Eric T. on Apr 4, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

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