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The JVR Dilemma

Maybe the subject line was a bit exaggerated.  The word dilemma implies some form of negativity based around a decision to be made.  The optimist would say that this kind of 'dilemma' is a good thing for any team.  You can never have too much depth.  

 

Notwithstanding Ville Leino being re-signed, or let go (a mini dilemma in itself) - James van Riemsdyk has a contract year coming up and I feel like he is often ignored by the wealth of Flyers depth on the team currently.

 

In his rookie season, JVR performed admirably.  I think it's safe to presume he wore down towards the end of it all, but who could blame him?

This season is kind of the opposite: a very very very slow start, followed by decent consistency the rest of the year.

When all is said and done this season, he will have more goals than Claude Giroux did in his 2nd season with the team, and although he isn't quite that kind of playmaker, his natural goal scoring ability is hard to refute.

With the Flyers hard up against the cap (as usual) - is it going to come down to choosing Leino and letting JVR walk to the highest bidder? Can they fit everyone in under the cap?  If JVR continues to progress next year, what is he worth?

That's a lot of questions.

 

Personally, I think you have to keep JVR in the fold, even if that means perhaps letting Leino go this offseason (ideally they keep both so don't crucify me for hating on Leino, I like him).  Both of these players have tremendous upside but JVR serves a purpose that Ville Leino cannot : that of a power forward.

Mike Knuble is long gone and he is not coming back.  I was not his biggest fan but his production spoke for itself.  In my opinion, JVR has the potential to be that presence in front of the net that Knuble was, while at the same time developing an all around game that Knuble could never dream of.  A combination of hands, strong skating ability and size could make us all forgot about Knuble once and for all.  

I think this 'dilemma' will find its way into next season whether or not Leino is still with the team.

So what do the Flyers do with JVR? Sign him to a Giroux-type contract in length and wait him out? Sign him to the lifetime type contract that would make him hard to get rid of if he doesn't pan out?  

Personally, I think you lock him up mid-season next year (like Giroux).  That way, in the off-chance that another GM has a bone to pick with Holmgren, we won't risk overpaying and pushing the cap even moreso to keep him. This year, JVR has shown flashes of brilliance that cannot be ignored.  In a perfect world, JVR will continue to progress and improve next season and the Flyers may be able to get him at a 'market-value' type discount contract, much like Giroux signed earlier this year.

As a Flyers fan, don't you want to say: ''Wow, I'm glad we locked him up because he is going to be worth so much more'' ?

Or do you feel that he simply hasn't lived up to the hype of a #2 overall pick and that his chances of doing so are slim ? 

Finally, is it just too early to tell? This year's playoffs will mean a lot for JVR and Leino's future with the organization.  We all know that Leino would not be the everyday player he is today if it weren't for last year's playoffs.  Not in Philly anyhow.  

 

Comments? Suggestions? Concerns?

 

Thanks for reading my first post.

Poll
What do the Flyers do with JVR?
Sign him ASAP - too much upside
54 votes
Let him go to the highest bidder - he's underachieving
11 votes
Relax! Let's just wait and see
151 votes

216 votes | Poll has closed

This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.

Comment 32 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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He’s been good. He’s been getting better, which is more important. And we have some time. We’ll some things worked to make him fit.

"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27

by Mike B on D on Mar 15, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Homer will need to work his cap magic to keep Leino and JVR, considering how much we have invested in other players for the next few years .. gonna be tough

by DizzDizzler on Mar 15, 2011 1:07 PM EDT reply actions  

This is how you do it ...

And you’ll note – this is without a cap increase….

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Ian Laperriere ($1.166m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
Ville Leino ($3.000m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($1.000m)
Tom Sestito ($0.677m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Jody Shelley ($1.100m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Nick Boynton ($0.500m)
/ Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Brian Boucher ($0.925m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,321,655; BONUSES: $1,700,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $78,345

Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.

by MaximumTalbot on Mar 15, 2011 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

NEVER MIND - MISTAKE

correction coming soon

Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.

by MaximumTalbot on Mar 15, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know you said mistake. But there will be a cap increase at least one of the next two seasons. I also don’t think Lappy will play again, so scratch that. Extra forward also isn’t there.

by phinally on Mar 15, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m assuming that the cap increase will be mostly eaten up in giving JVR a raise. And no – Lappy is (unfortunately) done. See below.

Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.

by MaximumTalbot on Mar 15, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lappy will still count against the cap, but he’ll give an LTIR exemption.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

He had him in there as a playing forward so my point is still there. I said nothing about the cap. I’m one of the few that actually read the CBA; a couple of times..

by phinally on Mar 15, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right. He needs two forwards, but it’s still a best practice to include Lappy.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 15, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's better ...

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Michael Testwuide ($0.900m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Ville Leino ($2.900m)
Andreas Nodl ($0.900m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
Darroll Powe ($0.800m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Tom Sestito ($0.577m)
/ Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Nick Boynton ($0.500m)
/ Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Brian Boucher ($0.925m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,034,988; BONUSES: $1,960,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $365,012

Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.

by MaximumTalbot on Mar 15, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Don’t you think Holmstrom or Wellwood would play over Testwuide?

Also, I don’t see JvR making that much more. His next contract probably won’t be his big year. I see 2 millionish for a couple of years plus bonuses.

by phinally on Mar 15, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should be Testwuide/Sestito

by phinally on Mar 15, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. I’m considering Sestito the replacement for both Carcillo and Shelley, while I don’t honestly know enough about them to judge between Holmstrom, Wellwood, and Testwuide. Simply put – you need three cheap contracts.

Point is, you can sign Leino to a reasonable contract, and still have enough to sign JVR after next year … IF you lose a couple albatross contracts (Shelley and Hartnell). Otherwise, I am not sure how you would get it done without doing something completely unexpected and different (trading Briere, for instance).

Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.

by MaximumTalbot on Mar 15, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree we would have to get rid of a contract to keep both. I was just saying, among those cheap ones, I think they would play over Testwuide. I really don’t know though. What do you think about losing Carle instead of Hartnell and bringing someone else up like Gus?

by phinally on Mar 15, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Carle’s contract is more reasonable than Hartnell’s. Paying Carle around $3.5m as a #2 defenseman is pretty good – while paying Hartnell $4.2 m to be the sixth-leading scorer on the team (and a penalty magnet) doesn’t make good sense. For that kind of money, you should be getting a Gagne-in-his-prime kind of player – not a guy with Muppet hair and skating skills.
Also, given that everyone agreed that the third defensive pairing was a glaring weakness last season, do we really want to further mess around with it? If you move Mesz or Carle or Cobie, you’ve lost that depth again.

Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.

by MaximumTalbot on Mar 15, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly it think it would depend on where the Flyers are next year. If they feel they REALLY can’t let him on they should sign up. If they feel they are awesome without him they could leave him exposed to RFA and … :O!!!!!! HAVE A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!!

by ic0n67 on Mar 15, 2011 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

What’s a first round draft pick?

by phinally on Mar 15, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some mythological thing that we once had.

I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.

Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates

by Chemistry66 on Mar 15, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I firmly believe we never did in the first place.

Mourning Hartnell's hair

by Toomin on Mar 15, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, I forgot we got JVR, Giroux, Richards, and Carter by bribing Gary Bettman with bottles of expensive alcohol.

I'm the Pronger. Basically? Run.

Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates

by Chemistry66 on Mar 15, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

why bother? they’ll trade it away!

by hbcivicsi93 on Mar 18, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rather than choosing out of JVR and Leino, I’d let one of Carle and Coburn go. Both of them end their contract in the same year, it’s really unlikely that we’ll be able to sign both of them. Let’s just pick the best one after next season ends.

Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 16, 2011 3:12 AM EDT reply actions  

JVR still has some learning to do

by fitzy first on Mar 16, 2011 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Broken record alert, because I’m repeating myself… But JVR’s contract runs through the end of this CBA. IMO, let’s wait and see how talks are going with the new CBA and the proposed changes to the cap structure. He doesn’t have the ability to walk away, so we can at least hang out long enough to let the talks about the new CBA get started.

by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 17, 2011 6:25 PM EDT reply actions  

i like JVR but i’m not happy that he was a #2 pick. i won’t even go into the fact that the flyers should of had #1 pick that year but bettman decides he’s going to put the draft lottery in place the 1 year the flyers tank. as a #2 pick, he’s not living up to his potential. they’ve given him many opportunities to show that he can be a top player in the league but when he gets placed with better players, he doesn’t perform. i’m not good at remembering draft and i’m not in the mood to look it up so i don’t know his draft class but in most drafts, he would of been taken later in the first round or even the beginning of the second round. wasn’t bobby ryan in the same class? if so, look how much more he’s doing.

by hbcivicsi93 on Mar 18, 2011 7:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Bobby Ryan was drafted 2 years earlier, 2nd overall after Sidney Crosby. And Bobby Ryan played in Canadian major junior and had considerably more AHL seasoning than JVR. JVR’s draft class in 2007 was guys like Sam Gagner and Logan Couture.

by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 18, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then you need to separate “James van Riemsdyk” from “Number 2 overall pick”.

I can’t stand this line of thinking. Why can’t JVR be judged based on his play, rather than some obscene notion that he has to be like older or younger players.

If ever anyone starts shittin’ on JVR for being a #2 overall pick, just look at #3 Kyle Turris and #4 Thomas Hickey and #5 Sam Gagner.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 18, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

bettman decides he’s going to put the draft lottery in place the 1 year the flyers tank.

Not true

hey’ve given him many opportunities to show that he can be a top player in the league but when he gets placed with better players, he doesn’t perform

Not true

in most drafts, he would of been taken later in the first round or even the beginning of the second round

LOL. The former captain and best player in the US World Juniors team taken in the second round?

wasn’t bobby ryan in the same class?

Good two years of difference. Give JVR two more years and I think he can possibly be producing Bobby Ryan numbers.

Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 18, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t see any reason to rush to a decision on JVR. He has two more years here to see how he develops, and even then he’d would be restricted right? So he would have limited bargaining power. I like what I see from his this year. He has fit in well, and I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that he’s an all star within 2-3 years

by aPHILLYated on Mar 19, 2011 1:30 AM EDT reply actions  

btw, nice post. it was a good read

by aPHILLYated on Mar 19, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

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