Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Blake Griffin Slam Dunks: NBA Jam Style

Balanced Corsi: Who is best at their role?

We recently looked at how balanced zone shifts compare a player against his peers in their ability to shift play from one end to the other, as judged by where shifts start and end.

Why not do the same thing with shots? After the jump, I'll describe a new balanced Corsi metric that compares a player's Corsi score to that of peers with similar usage.

Star-divide

As a reminder, the Corsi score is like +/-, but with shots instead of goals -- you count how many shots are directed at the opposing net while the player was on the ice and subtract the shots directed at his own net. This metric has been shown to correlate well with goal scoring, puck possession, scoring chances, and duh, winning, so it's a popular way to assess how teams and players are performing.

But something that Don Cherry doesn't understand is that context matters too. It's much harder for a player who's starting in the defensive zone all the time and playing against tough competition to have a positive Corsi score. So in the spirit of the balanced zone shift analysis, let's look at what happens if we group players by their offensive zone start percentage and look at whether they control shots better than their similarly-used peers.

As always, it starts with data collection. I used four years of data from behindthenet.ca, counting everyone who played in at least 3/4 of their team's games. That gave me over 1800 player-seasons, which I sorted by offensive zone starts. Then it was easy to look at how any given player compared to players used similarly. Here's a snippet of the data:

Example_expected_corsi_medium

 

 

 

 

 

In 2008, Richards had a negative Corsi. But he had a ton of defensive starts, and when you compare him to the ten guys used most similarly, it's clear that he was outperforming what you'd expect of someone put in those tough spots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's basically what I did for each player; I took the 100 closest comparisons in usage (50 above and 50 below) and averaged their results to see what I should expect from someone with that role. As you'd imagine, we expect better results from people put in easier spots:

Expected_corsi_medium

From here, we can compare people's performance to that of their peers. Just like the Richards example above, I went through every player and calculated their Balanced Corsi by seeing how they compared to what we'd expect of them; here are the leaderboards from the past few years:

Player: 2010-2011 Team Balanced Corsi Player: 2009-2010 Team Balanced Corsi Player: 2008-2009 Team Balanced Corsi Player: 2007-2008 Team Balanced Corsi
Ryan Kesler VAN 17.5 Colin Fraser CHI 17.8 Johan Franzen DET 23.5 Henrik Zetterberg DET 24.7
Sean Bergenheim T.B 16.9 Patrice Bergeron BOS 17.7 Pavel Datsyuk DET 21.0 Pavel Datsyuk DET 22.8
Pavel Datsyuk DET 15.8 Marcel Goc NSH 17.4 Marian Hossa DET 21.0 Niklas Lidstrom DET 13.9
Ryane Clowe S.J 15.7 Ryan Kesler VAN 16.5 David Moss CGY 20.6 Patrik Elias N.J 12.6
Christopher Higgins VAN 15.6 Tomas Holmstrom DET 16.2 Andrew Ladd CHI 20.3 Alex Ovechkin WSH 12.6
Joe Pavelski S.J 15.1 Alex Ovechkin WSH 15.5 Eric Fehr WSH 19.0 Brian Rafalski DET 12.5
Dominic Moore T.B 14.8 John Madden CHI 15.2 Henrik Zetterberg DET 18.9 Boyd Gordon WSH 12.5
Logan Couture S.J 14.6 Niklas Lidstrom DET 14.6 Niklas Lidstrom DET 16.5 Ray Whitney CAR 12.4
Nikolay Zherdev PHI 14.6 Alexei Ponikarovsky PIT 14.5 Brian Rafalski DET 16.3 Kristian Huselius CGY 12.4
Patrice Bergeron BOS 14.0 Mason Raymond VAN 14.5 Dave Bolland CHI 15.8 David Steckel WSH 12.0

A few things stand out at me from this list:

  • The list includes players in a lot of different roles, so we've achieved the goal of removing usage bias. (There is zero correlation between offensive zone starts and balanced Corsi.)
  • The list includes a lot of players who we might expect, but there are a few interesting names thrown in to make you think a little. Nikolay Zherdev's sphinx-like nature comes up again.
  • The list does show substantial bias towards players on elite teams -- when I tallied up people's four-year totals, the leaderboard (not shown) had Red Wings at #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8. Like with +/-, you're much more likely to be on the ice for a bunch of shots at the opposing net if the team around you tends to dominate play.

That last bullet point is something we can address. We can do the exact same analysis, but instead of using Corsi score, we can use relative Corsi. Relative Corsi is a measure of how much a player elevates his team -- you compare how the team does with him on the ice to how they do with him off the ice, and give him credit for the difference. In theory, this should dramatically reduce the impact of his teammate's skill.

Going through the same analysis of expected value as above, I calculated the Balanced Relative Corsi for each player, and again I'll show the leaders from each year:

Player: 2010-2011 Team Balanced Corsi Rel Player: 2009-2010 Team Balanced Corsi Rel Player: 2008-2009 Team Balanced Corsi Rel Player: 2007-2008 Team Balanced Corsi Rel
Mikhail Grabovski TOR 22.7 Dustin Penner EDM 18.2 David Booth FLA 17.7 Derek Armstrong LA 19.6
Clarke Macarthur TOR 20.1 Alex Ovechkin WAS 16.5 Corey Perry ANA 17.0 Scottie Upshall PHI 19.0
Lubomir Visnovsky ANA 18.8 Frans Nielsen NYI 15.9 Ryan Getzlaf ANA 16.7 Daniel Sedin VAN 18.6
Frans Nielsen NYI 17.8 Peter Regin OTT 15.4 Alex Burrows VAN 16.2 Patrik Elias NJ 16.5
Ryan Kesler VAN 17.8 Michael Frolik FLA 14.7 Colby Armstrong ATL 15.8 Vyacheslav Kozlov ATL 16.4
Justin Williams LA 16.6 Marcel Goc NSH 13.8 Zach Parise NJ 15.6 Braydon Coburn PHI 16.3
Nikolay Zherdev PHI 16.2 Bobby Ryan ANA 13.7 Braydon Coburn PHI 15.0 Bobby Holik ATL 15.5
Christopher Higgins VAN 16.2 Mason Raymond VAN 13.6 Eric Staal CAR 14.4 Pierre-Marc Bouchard MIN 15.5
Daniel Winnik COL 15.9 Carlo Colaiacovo STL 13.6 Shea Weber NSH 14.0 Ken Klee ATL 15.3
Michael Grabner NYI 15.7 Ryan Kesler VAN 13.4 Stephen Weiss FLA 14.0 Henrik Zetterberg DET 15.3

From this list, we see a small amount of bias in the other direction, towards players on lesser teams. If relative Corsi is a measure of how much a player elevates his team, it stands to reason that it would be harder to dramatically elevate an elite team. However, this effect is much milder than the huge bias on straight Corsi, and it averages out over multiple years; this time, when I totaled Balanced Corsi Rel over the four years, the leaders were much more reasonable: Visnovsky, DSedin, Getzlaf, Nielsen, Kesler, Williams, Kozlov, Bouchard, Penner, Ryan, Booth, Perry, Elias, HSedin, and Parise.

Finally, let's take a look at what the balanced numbers say about the Flyers performance this year and over the last four years:

Player Balanced Corsi 2011 Balanced Corsi Rel 2011
Nikolay Zherdev 14.6 16.2
Claude Giroux 8.1 13.9
Jeff Carter 6.8 8.4
Andreas Nodl 3.5 1.7
Mike Richards 2.4 2.0
Darroll Powe 0.6 -1.8
James van Riemsdyk -1.7 -0.5
Daniel Briere -2.9 -1.8
Scott Hartnell -3.5 -1.6
Kris Versteeg -4.1 -1.0
Jody Shelley -6.7 -10.1
Blair Betts -8.3 -11.1
Ville Leino -8.7 -3.5
------------------------ --------------------- ---------------------
Andrej Meszaros 3.9 3.7
Matt Carle 3.2 5.6
Kimmo Timonen 2.1 3.8
Chris Pronger 1.0 0.9
Braydon Coburn -0.2 1.3
Sean O'Donnell -4.4 -7.9

Player Balanced Corsi 2008-2011 Balanced Corsi Rel 2008-2011
Nikolay Zherdev 9.5 10.6
Mike Richards 5.8 7.0
Jeff Carter 4.5 7.0
Kris Versteeg 4.1 -2.0
Claude Giroux 4.0 7.7
Andreas Nodl 2.0 1.7
Ville Leino 1.5 0.0
James van Riemsdyk 0.6 1.6
Scott Hartnell -0.5 1.4
Darroll Powe -1.7 -2.1
Blair Betts -2.9 -10.9
Daniel Briere -5.8 -1.8
Jody Shelley -6.5 -10.5
Dan Carcillo -7.9 -5.5
------------------------ --------------------- ---------------------
Braydon Coburn 5.3 9.6
Matt Carle 3.2 6.2
Chris Pronger 1.4 0.3
Andrej Meszaros -0.6 0.3
Kimmo Timonen -0.9 1.8
Sean O'Donnell -2.7 -6.9
Nick Boynton -2.9 -1.6

Much like what we saw with the Balanced Zone Shifts recently, it seems the HBL line isn't doing as well this year as other offensively-deployed lines at controlling the shots, but the second and third lines are doing better than most. This might be related to the relatively even balance of skill across the Flyers' top three lines -- their top line might not be as offensively stacked as some teams', but their second and third lines are controlling play.

It's also interesting that O'Donnell and Meszaros are at opposite ends of the spectrum this year even though they've been paired together all year (68% of the time O'Donnell has been on the ice, it's been with Meszaros). I look forward to seeing what the WOWY scripts say -- it may be that Meszaros has been a Corsi beast when he's not saddled with O'Donnell as a partner.

And Zherdev isn't just outperforming his peers this year; he's been doing it his whole career. Over the last four years, he's 17th league-wide among players with 200+ games in Balanced Corsi and 18th in Balanced Corsi Rel. What an enigma.

So to summarize, here's what we've seen:

  • Balanced Corsi and Balanced Corsi Rel are new ways to look at how a player controls play relative to his similarly-used peers.
  • Both metrics are fine for comparing within a team, but when comparing across teams, Balanced Corsi Rel is much better because Balanced Corsi skews heavily towards players on elite teams. However, Balanced Corsi Rel does have a modest short-term bias towards players on lesser teams, so looking at both numbers is useful; a player who is on the leaderboard of both metrics (like Zherdev) is clearly outperforming his peers.
  • When we look at the Flyers, we once again see that their forward depth has been driving their success, as it is their defensively-deployed second and third lines that are really outperforming other team's comparably used players.

Attachment: spreadsheet with Balanced Corsi and Corsi Rel data.

Comment 78 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

great article….let’s get Z back in there!

by my pal mal 16 on Mar 22, 2011 10:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting look. Coburn’s numbers league wide are impressive from previous years, especially given his QualComp from those years.

It be nice to get a look at QualComp, I definitely wouldn’t be surprised is Meszaros was a Corsi beast this year given his talent level and the competition he is facing. It definitely didn’t surprise me to see him do well in this stat. He is playing 3rd/4th line competition but getting tough Dzone starts.

And again, it’s not surprising to see Z doing well here and Leino not doing well.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Mar 22, 2011 10:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I had the thought that for defensemen, it might be better to balance by Corsi Rel QoC than by OZ%. So I ran a Competition-balanced Corsi/Corsi Rel for defensemen in much the same way as I did this analysis, but it didn’t look all that different from these numbers. I may toss it out in a later post just for the heck of it, but I may not.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Regarding Meszaros, that was my thought as well. But then I realized I was a fan of Balanced Corsi Rel, which ranks him 3rd this year. I think that’s fair. He’s had a great year, and he’s filled in for Pronger more and more.

Oh, and the QualComp doesn’t bother me as much since LBH is getting smoked. I think the biggest part of Meszaros’ numbers is that he’s much better than the average third-pairing defender in the NHL, so this speaks to his skill compared to his use. If/when he gets off the third pairing, I’d be really curious to see his numbers. In other words, what happens when his “similarly used peers” get more in line with his skill level.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah…my comment in the post was less about how Meszaros has outperformed his third-pairing peers (which we’d expect); it was more about combining that with how O’Donnell has underperformed his third-pairing peers.

Since the two are usually together, you’d expect them to have similar scores. The fact that there’s such a big difference between them tells me that Meszaros has probably been great when he’s not with O’Donnell and/or that O’Donnell has been terrible when he’s not with Meszaros. I’m itching to get the WOWY scripts to see.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder how impressive his Corsi w/ Carle (presumably 20-25% of his ice time) is then. Because the zone starts for them is probably around 50% (going off Carle’s OZS% from when I looked at him earlier), which doesn’t change how Mesz is used enough to account for how well that pairing has played in small samples.

Know what I’m trying to say?

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the biggest part of Meszaros’ numbers is that he’s much better than the average third-pairing defender in the NHL, so this speaks to his skill compared to his use.

Yeah, that was mostly my point, when the similarly used peers are along the same skill level as he is. He is playing inferior competition and smoking them. He is having a great year, I don’t want to take that away from him.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Mar 22, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

i have a question about what to take from this…you say this metric correlates with goal scoring/puck possession/scoring chances which i would assume shows why Z is so good in this stat since he’s kind of a beast at all of those whereas I’d put leino a beast at just puck possession, but does that mean that you would want z on your line over L? could his dominance in this stat just be a result of selfish play, where he’d do his own thing and take his own shots? i understand the value of a player with high numbers here but that doesn’t necessarily mean you want all your players with a high number here does it?

by my pal mal 16 on Mar 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oops, I didn’t state that very clearly.

Corsi isn’t really an individual stat; it’s a measure of how the team did when that player was on the ice. So Z having a high Corsi means they got a lot of shots when he was on the ice — which probably means they possessed the puck and got scoring chances and scored goals. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he personally was the one carrying the puck.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

But his underlying point, I think, needs to be addressed: Doesn’t this suggest that Zherdev should replace Leino? Leino is doing so much worse than his linemates (which itself is difficult to explain), but that doesn’t necessarily support people’s theories that Leino is integral to that line’s success.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which people have these theories? I’ve made it my goal to scare them away.

by Snevik on Mar 22, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you already did…

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah you phrased this much better than i could….so i’m assuming, correct me if wrong, that people like leino on that line bc then you have a crashnbang guy (harts) sniper(briere)and"playmaker"(leino) working together…but this stat seems to say that when z’s on the ice everything gets better anyway so what’s the difference about defined roles? so do you go with defined roles like above and keep L, or assume that people with different styles of play are interchangeable and go with these stats Z?

by my pal mal 16 on Mar 22, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

so what’s the difference about defined roles? so do you go with defined roles like above and keep L, or assume that people with different styles of play are interchangeable and go with these stats Z?

Not sure how to answer this, but I think these numbers show that Leino is underperforming and either a) needs to improve dramatically; or b) sit in favor of Zherdev.

We know that b) won’t happen though. So I would like Eric to try and explain how Leino is so far below Briere and Hartnell here.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s the same question as with Mesz/O’Donnell or Kulemin/Grabovski — it means the player is doing something very different when he’s not with his normal linemates than when he is with them.

In Leino’s case, it’s his OZ% that is way off. They all have similar Corsi numbers, but Leino is at 60.4% OZ starts, while Briere and Hartnell are at 52.8% and 52.6%. Since Leino spent 70% of his ice time with both of them (and another 5-10% with each of them individually), there must be a huge difference in zone starts during those times when they’re not together.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, you can put it much better than me :)

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The alternative here is

Leino plays less than the other two, who see more important defensive assignments… thus he’s only out there for the plum offensive ones.

It would help if this made more sense from the Kulemin/Grabo/MacArthur comparison, but it doesn’t. Of the 3, Kulemin is generally considered the most effective defender, but he’s gotten the highest proportion of OZ% starts… so that confuses me a bit. It also makes me wonder about things like players getting trapped on the ice for icing… if a guy is stuck on the ice for an icing it’d knock his OZ% down a tad… I really wish they tracked this stuff… because in a way it would penalize the guy that short shifts who is closest to the bench to get off when he needs to.

What wing does Leino play?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

shift length

would help this number out for me… I’m going to see if I can find that data …

Yeah for Grabo, MacArthur, and Kulemin that seems to bear some fruit… Grabo’s average shift length is 50.02 seconds, MacArthur’s is 48.43 seconds, and Kulemin’s is only 45.60 seconds… he changes more quickly, so he may not be stuck on the ice as often.

This is also a result I’m sure of the longer shifts that go with increased PP time, but it’s fairly significant considering Kulemin actually has more total ice time than MacArthur.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know

how that works out for Leino though, since he has longer shifts than Hartnell on average… but he’s shorter than Briere by 2 seconds.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You could always answer it with a “roles are almost entirely dependent on how a coach uses his players” speech.

by Snevik on Mar 22, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can’t use EA Sports NHL series thinking where you want to match a line up with a power forward a play maker and a sniper, because they will work better than 2 snipers and a power forward etc. These are professional athletes, over time they leanr their linemates styles, they adapt. Some players take longer, some are more adaptable, but in general good players play well and mediorce players play okay, there is no mgic chemistry equation to apply to a line.

Leino has been extremely sheltered and his Ozone start % is the number driving his balanced corsi to be different, this tells me, that for whatever reason, the coach doesn’t trust Leino in the Dzone and/or he doesn’t trust Danny to win a Dzone draw, so puts another center out in Leino’s place to help with Dzone draws.

I think at the end of the day, Z and Leino are both players best used with sheltered zone starts in a scoring line role (meaning try to get them out against 3rd line competition). Unfortunately, only one line can get these favorable starting points and match ups for the most part, and Leino is already the established RW for that line. I think you could plug in Z and have a line that is just as effective (given some time), but it’s too late in the season now to mess with line combos IMO.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Mar 22, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not an individual number of shots directed at the net for and against (Corsi includes misses and blocks, plus shots on net and goals in case you aren’t aware), but rather it counts the number of shots directed at the net for everyone on the ice. So if Leino is on with let’s say, Hartnell Briere, Meszaros and OD, so if Mesaros takes a shot, and Briere fires a rebound, that counts for a +2 in Leino’s Corsi.

So Coris is a possession, or control of play, metric. It isn’t an exact science with score effects etc, but it gives you a good idea of who is controlling the play when on the ice with the 4 other players he is out there with.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Mar 22, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

ahhh i see, thanks to both of you

by my pal mal 16 on Mar 22, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem, if you have anymore question about any of this stuff, keep them coming. Eric is one of the best people in the stats community at explaining advanced stats to people who are new to them.

And on occasion, Geoff, Todd, Snevik, or myself will jump in but won’t explain it nearly as well.

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Mar 22, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem, if you have anymore question about any of this stuff, keep them coming.

Absolutely. And that goes to anyone.

Eric is one of the best people in the stats community at explaining advanced stats to people who are new to them.

Completely true, and even Pittsburgh fans agree.

And on occasion, Geoff, Todd, Snevik, or myself will jump in but won’t explain it nearly as well.

But we’ll try!

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And on occasion, Geoff, Todd, Snevik, or myself will jump in but won’t explain it nearly as well.

Probably in that order. But if everyone else dies, I’m always here.

by Snevik on Mar 22, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you know how the results of this method compare to the adjusted corsi formula JLikens assembled?

I’m also surprised Pronger isn’t alot stronger by this method, but he is getting up there in age.

Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf

by George E. Ays on Mar 22, 2011 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Dang, I didn’t know about that. I emailed Gabe before I did this to ask if he knew of anything like this and didn’t get a reply.

They are indeed pretty similar, since my expected Corsi value is pretty linear across most of the range. But like with Balanced Corsi, his adjusted Corsi numbers are tough to compare across teams.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, and I like that you tried relative Corsi to try to circumvent those troubles. JL’s article says an O-Zone start was worth .8 Corsi. What do your numbers say is the correlation? What about for Rel. Corsi?

Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf

by George E. Ays on Mar 22, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fitting the region from OZ% of 44% to OZ% of 56% to a straight line gives an expected Corsi of 0.904x – 44.78 (R2 =.952) and an expected Corsi Rel of 0.5397x – 26.291 (R2 = .897).

Outside the 44-56% range is where it starts to deviate from linearity more significantly.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alright, thanks.

Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf

by George E. Ays on Mar 22, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not gonna fool me twice. Read the first paragraph this time. phew.

Just Call Me "M"!

by MJDII on Mar 22, 2011 12:08 PM EDT reply actions  

So the Leafs should probably re-sign MacArthur is what you’re saying.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 22, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I wonder what Kulemin’s number is, he puts up similar points on that line must be similar to his mates.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The top Leafs for four-year total Balanced Corsi are Grabovski (5.9), Kulemin (4.7), Kessel (4.2), Lebda (3.8), Carmstrong (3.6). For Balanced Corsi Rel, it’s Armstrong (9.5), Grabovski (9.2), Macarthur (5.4), Kadri (5.3), Kulemin (5.1).

For this year, it’s Grabovski (11.6), Macarthur (10.2), Kulemin (5.2), Caputi (3.8), Kadri (2.4) in BC, or Grabovski (21.4), Macarthur (19.2), Kulemin (12.7), Kadri (10.4), Armstrong (4.2) in BCR.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

W/r/t Kulemin, he only has three less points than Grabbo and plays over 60% of his minutes with them both. What is the reason for the discrepancy?

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s the same question I have about Meszaros and O’Donnell. My guess is that it’s a clue that either he’s done much worse without them or they’ve done much better without him. But I don’t know for sure.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, but the time when the three of them are without one another is very very small.

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

(56% of his time is with Grabbo and MacA)

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Mar 22, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s at EV he also has 5% on the PP with them.
He has played with Grabbo 87% of the time this season

The Leafs are my Rushmore
Certified Grabbo Lover and member of the PPPPP

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure BTN’s Corsi numbers are built off 5v5, rather than PP/PK.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Mar 22, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you can search them for all situations on BtN, but this is all ES

Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?

by DLJr on Mar 22, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

that isn't 56% of his time

that’s 56% of his point production… you’re looking at production not shifts. This is the one you want.

And it says 58% ES + 5% PP so around 63% total.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, all of this data is based on even strength data. So I’d suggest this, which says almost 70% of his ES ice time is with both of them, and a lot more than that with Grabovski.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

missed the earlier response… either way I also think there’s some exaggeration in the terms “much worse” and “much better” … we’re talking a slight differential in attempted shots for and against over hundreds and hundreds of minutes played together. We’re looking long term here, and seeing a slight differential in player quality, but I think in some ways the difference between Kulemin, Grabovski, and MacArthur highlights how small the gap is in reality.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

/nod

But look at this:
OZ% — Kulemin 52.3, Grabovski 51.5, Macarthur 50.9
Corsi — Kulemin 6.4, Grabovski 11.8, Macarthur 10.5

So in that short time apart, Kulemin got a lot more offensive zone starts and controlled play a lot less than the other two did without him.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many more OZone starts is

a difference of 0.8% really? I mean if that’s “a lot” then Grabovski got a lot more than MacArthur with his increase of 0.6%…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

0.8% isn’t a big difference.

But if he spends 80% of his ice time with Grabovski, he has to have a lot more OZ starts in that other 20% to bump the overall average by 0.8% — somewhere around 4% more.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily

you’re assuming that the 80% of the shifts they’re on the ice for have the same distribution as all of his shifts… for both of them.

It is quite possible that the majority of Kulemin’s OZ starts come with Grabovski, and then his DZ starts come without Grabovski… irrespective of the other numbers you’re seeing. I realize it would be harder to explain, but it’s possible.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kulemin

has had 288 OZ faceoffs, 263 DZ faceoffs, and another 396 NZ faceoffs at ES according to BtN.

Grabovski has had 281 OZ faceoffs, 265 DZ faceoffs, and another 408 NZ faceoffs at ES.

That’s only 7 extra faceoffs… he doesn’t have a lot more OZ starts… he just has fewer starts overall… the NZ starts change the percentage quite a bit.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's something else I think you might want to consider

I realize you’re using OZ% as a proxy for usage, but it negates the total amount of ice time as a factor. Zherdev has only 150 OZ faceoffs (47.9 OZ%) this season at 5 on 5, but you’re comparing him to other players like Sergei Kostitsyn (47.8%), Patrick Marleau (47.7%) or Vincent Lecavalier (47.7%). The thing is Kostitsyn has been on the ice for 231 OZ faceoffs, Marleau has been out for 314 OZ faceoffs, and Lecavalier has been on the ice for 216 OZ faceoffs… he’s seen half as many starts as Marleau, and we’re comparing them as if they’re used similarly…

I’m not sure that makes sense? Is there a way to modify this at all? Perhaps combine total faceoffs in a range with the percentage? refine it a bit further?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why does number matter? The Corsi and Corsi Rel numbers are rate stats, so it shouldn’t matter whether the guy’s playing 6 minutes a game or 16…

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

well for starters

sample size… I hope you wouldn’t argue that a guy who has been on the ice for 10 faceoffs in the OZ and DZ with a 50/50 split is roughly equivalent to these guys?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

and doesn't the

6 vs. 16 say something about usage? which I thought was what you were aiming to control for?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, there might be a quality-of-competition differential if the 6-minute guy is being shielded, but ignoring that for now, I’d say the two are being used in the same manner but not with the same frequency.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

could you control for more than one variable at a time?

and combine Corsi Rel QoC and OZ%? Or is there not enough data for that?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just wondering

if it’d throttle the restriction to such a degree as to make the groupings meaningless for most purposes…l’d think with 4 seasons worth of data you’d be approaching a pretty decent sample size.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

btw

I’m not trying to be hypercritical here… I really like what you’ve done, I’m just wondering if there’s ways to refine things further. I plan on playing with the same info myself going forwards.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yah, no worries at all.

I like getting feedback and suggestions and being challenged on some of what I did — it’s hard to do this stuff in a vacuum. And besides, I assume that you wouldn’t be spending the time on it if you didn’t find it interesting.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s possible, but I’d definitely be nervous about stretching the data too thin. I fiddled with balancing by Corsi Rel QoC earlier and will probably work with it a bit more and see if I can get anywhere interesting.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking about a 3D plot

to see if more groupings come out in the wash…. maybe I’m presuming a bit much too soon.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 23, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, sample size is fair. But Zherdev’s sustained that play over his four-year average, so I’m not too worried about him in particular.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough

although he’s done it on two other teams also… with different usage…

I admit he’s a very solid player, being underused this season.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

NZ starts don’t count though — OZ% is the fraction of end-zone starts in the offensive zone: OZ / (OZ + DZ) (which is admittedly weird).

You’re right that it doesn’t have to be Kulemin having a lot more offensive starts than his usual in the 20% when he’s without Grabovski. But he does have to have a lot more offensive starts than Grabovski does in that time.

That is, maybe Grabovski is always at 51.5 and Kulemin is at 51.5 when they’re together and at 55.5 when they’re apart. Or maybe Kulemin is always at 52.3 and Grabovski is at 52.3 when they’re together and at 48.3 when they’re apart. Or maybe it’s somewhere in between, but whatever it is, I think there needs to be a ~4% differential when they’re apart, more or less.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's done worse without them

because he’s played on Kessel and Bozak’s wing a bit.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

to be fair… Kulemin isn’t a puck possession or shot guy… he’s a dig in the corners and retrieval guy… he’s also more “position” oriented… that means he likely suffers a bit from the perspective of corsi (shooting possession) measures.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Filed under “another reason to like Colby Armstrong.” Also, if you need another reason to promote Balanced Corsi Rel over Balanced Corsi, just point to Brett Lebda being in the top 4.

This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.

by Bower Power on Mar 22, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Grabbo really IS amazing.

You can't give up hope just because it's hopeless. You have to hope even harder, cover your ears, and go 'blah blah blah blah blah!'

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 22, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoa, fascinating stuff, both today and the BZS article. The numbers clearly do not like Leino though. We should ask Keith Jones about him instead!

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Mar 22, 2011 1:35 PM EDT reply actions  

And I’m so surprised to see Z up there both for straight Corsi and relative. I guess he’s just good at what he does!

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Mar 22, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jesus numbers joygasm …

Honestly if you get paid for doing this I think that constitutes prostitution …

by ic0n67 on Mar 22, 2011 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Eric

I’m not sure if you’ve considered this, but have you come up with a way of combining the balanced zone shift and balanced corsi results yet?

have you also considered looking at doing balanced Delta (if Tom Awad made the numbers available)?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:30 PM EDT reply actions  

I had thought about looking for a correlation between the balanced zone shift and corsi numbers, but hadn’t thought about trying to combine them. It’s an interesting idea for a value metric — balanced Corsi measures whether the five on the ice actually took more shots than you’d expect from where they started, and we could also give them credit for the future shots that the next shift will take if they move play up into the offensive zone.

I could do it with Delta easily enough if I can get the numbers; I’ll look into it.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t have much to say other than, well done.

And I’d also like to see how this works when combined with BZS.

Mourning Gagne forever.

by ToddtheFox on Mar 22, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

If there is a single article on this site that I wish Lavvy would be forced to sit down, read and acknowledge, it is this one.

That he has healthy scratched Nick Zherdev for close to half this season while shrugging his shoulders and pretending this is about effort, is enough to make me want to put my head through a wall.

This is just a fact about sports in general. Coaches are human beings. They have players they like and others they don’t like. Sometimes the players you don’t like are better than the ones that you do. Good coaches find a way to step outside their personal biases and personality conflicts. What is best for the team in pro sports, is to put the best players together and put them in situations where they can succeed.

What this season has said to me so far is that Lavvy… as good a coach as he is in many ways, has an issue with his personal feelings that is clouding his judgement. He’s overly concerned with matching up lines based on his beliefs rather than simply challenging the players to succeed, and all the tinkering has done is confuse and demoralize the guys who have to lace up the skates and play.

I would think as a marginally skilled player in his own right, Lavvy would show more understanding of the psychological aspects of the game than he has. Lavvy was a guy who got by on grit and hard work, and sometimes I wonder if he leans towards players who he thinks are more like he was?

We’re really fortunate to have players like Pronger and Kimmo, and at this point a veteran team loaded with talent and playoff experience. With the excellent upgrades and general good fortune the team has experienced this year, it’s really hard to understand how the team could be in such a funk right now.

by Gizmoitus on Mar 22, 2011 4:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Nothing to add. Just wanted to say this outstanding work. I don’t know when advanced analysis landed in Philly, but please keep it up guys.

by Kent Wilson on Mar 22, 2011 7:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks, I appreciate it.

by Eric T. on Mar 22, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow.

Extremely good article. Thank you for your time and effort. I look forward to reading more from you.

by David Spurrier on Mar 23, 2011 10:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

All the Philadelphia Flyers news and commentary that's fit to print.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Flyers-orange-crush_small
NHL Draft 2012: Options on defense in the first round

Recent FanPosts

Patal_small
Andrew Johnston Scouting Report: A first-hand look at the Flyers newest prospect
Small
What being a Hockey fan means to me.
Small
Could Parise and Weber be in Flyers' future?
Mick_jagr_2_small
SB Nation app
Small
Hockey Stick Help
Copy_of_137494800_slide_small
The 2011-12 Philadelphia Flyers season in GIFs
37938_10150235117290484_539355483_13709206_6888144_n_small
Ilya Bryzgalov has chance to take shot at Flyers fans, does
Small
Can the Flyers win the Cup with Bryz?
Carcillo_small
Flyers in the Off-Season

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managing Editor

Screen_shot_2012-01-09_at_12 Travis Hughes

Associate Editors

67865_878600804923_14200876_46395212_2220_n_small Geoff Detweiler

Headshot2_film_grain_small Ben Rothenberg

Soccer_face_small Eric T.

Contributors

163830_478172269164_824914164_5517468_4313370_n_small ToddtheFox

Clarke-tee_small KreiderDesigns

D150_small Teemu H