Balanced Corsi: Who is best at their role?
We recently looked at how balanced zone shifts compare a player against his peers in their ability to shift play from one end to the other, as judged by where shifts start and end.
Why not do the same thing with shots? After the jump, I'll describe a new balanced Corsi metric that compares a player's Corsi score to that of peers with similar usage.
As a reminder, the Corsi score is like +/-, but with shots instead of goals -- you count how many shots are directed at the opposing net while the player was on the ice and subtract the shots directed at his own net. This metric has been shown to correlate well with goal scoring, puck possession, scoring chances, and duh, winning, so it's a popular way to assess how teams and players are performing.
But something that Don Cherry doesn't understand is that context matters too. It's much harder for a player who's starting in the defensive zone all the time and playing against tough competition to have a positive Corsi score. So in the spirit of the balanced zone shift analysis, let's look at what happens if we group players by their offensive zone start percentage and look at whether they control shots better than their similarly-used peers.
As always, it starts with data collection. I used four years of data from behindthenet.ca, counting everyone who played in at least 3/4 of their team's games. That gave me over 1800 player-seasons, which I sorted by offensive zone starts. Then it was easy to look at how any given player compared to players used similarly. Here's a snippet of the data:
In 2008, Richards had a negative Corsi. But he had a ton of defensive starts, and when you compare him to the ten guys used most similarly, it's clear that he was outperforming what you'd expect of someone put in those tough spots.
And that's basically what I did for each player; I took the 100 closest comparisons in usage (50 above and 50 below) and averaged their results to see what I should expect from someone with that role. As you'd imagine, we expect better results from people put in easier spots:

From here, we can compare people's performance to that of their peers. Just like the Richards example above, I went through every player and calculated their Balanced Corsi by seeing how they compared to what we'd expect of them; here are the leaderboards from the past few years:
| Player: 2010-2011 | Team | Balanced Corsi | Player: 2009-2010 | Team | Balanced Corsi | Player: 2008-2009 | Team | Balanced Corsi | Player: 2007-2008 | Team | Balanced Corsi | |||
| Ryan Kesler | VAN | 17.5 | Colin Fraser | CHI | 17.8 | Johan Franzen | DET | 23.5 | Henrik Zetterberg | DET | 24.7 | |||
| Sean Bergenheim | T.B | 16.9 | Patrice Bergeron | BOS | 17.7 | Pavel Datsyuk | DET | 21.0 | Pavel Datsyuk | DET | 22.8 | |||
| Pavel Datsyuk | DET | 15.8 | Marcel Goc | NSH | 17.4 | Marian Hossa | DET | 21.0 | Niklas Lidstrom | DET | 13.9 | |||
| Ryane Clowe | S.J | 15.7 | Ryan Kesler | VAN | 16.5 | David Moss | CGY | 20.6 | Patrik Elias | N.J | 12.6 | |||
| Christopher Higgins | VAN | 15.6 | Tomas Holmstrom | DET | 16.2 | Andrew Ladd | CHI | 20.3 | Alex Ovechkin | WSH | 12.6 | |||
| Joe Pavelski | S.J | 15.1 | Alex Ovechkin | WSH | 15.5 | Eric Fehr | WSH | 19.0 | Brian Rafalski | DET | 12.5 | |||
| Dominic Moore | T.B | 14.8 | John Madden | CHI | 15.2 | Henrik Zetterberg | DET | 18.9 | Boyd Gordon | WSH | 12.5 | |||
| Logan Couture | S.J | 14.6 | Niklas Lidstrom | DET | 14.6 | Niklas Lidstrom | DET | 16.5 | Ray Whitney | CAR | 12.4 | |||
| Nikolay Zherdev | PHI | 14.6 | Alexei Ponikarovsky | PIT | 14.5 | Brian Rafalski | DET | 16.3 | Kristian Huselius | CGY | 12.4 | |||
| Patrice Bergeron | BOS | 14.0 | Mason Raymond | VAN | 14.5 | Dave Bolland | CHI | 15.8 | David Steckel | WSH | 12.0 |
A few things stand out at me from this list:
- The list includes players in a lot of different roles, so we've achieved the goal of removing usage bias. (There is zero correlation between offensive zone starts and balanced Corsi.)
- The list includes a lot of players who we might expect, but there are a few interesting names thrown in to make you think a little. Nikolay Zherdev's sphinx-like nature comes up again.
- The list does show substantial bias towards players on elite teams -- when I tallied up people's four-year totals, the leaderboard (not shown) had Red Wings at #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8. Like with +/-, you're much more likely to be on the ice for a bunch of shots at the opposing net if the team around you tends to dominate play.
That last bullet point is something we can address. We can do the exact same analysis, but instead of using Corsi score, we can use relative Corsi. Relative Corsi is a measure of how much a player elevates his team -- you compare how the team does with him on the ice to how they do with him off the ice, and give him credit for the difference. In theory, this should dramatically reduce the impact of his teammate's skill.
Going through the same analysis of expected value as above, I calculated the Balanced Relative Corsi for each player, and again I'll show the leaders from each year:
From this list, we see a small amount of bias in the other direction, towards players on lesser teams. If relative Corsi is a measure of how much a player elevates his team, it stands to reason that it would be harder to dramatically elevate an elite team. However, this effect is much milder than the huge bias on straight Corsi, and it averages out over multiple years; this time, when I totaled Balanced Corsi Rel over the four years, the leaders were much more reasonable: Visnovsky, DSedin, Getzlaf, Nielsen, Kesler, Williams, Kozlov, Bouchard, Penner, Ryan, Booth, Perry, Elias, HSedin, and Parise.
Finally, let's take a look at what the balanced numbers say about the Flyers performance this year and over the last four years:
| Player | Balanced Corsi 2011 | Balanced Corsi Rel 2011 |
| Nikolay Zherdev | 14.6 | 16.2 |
| Claude Giroux | 8.1 | 13.9 |
| Jeff Carter | 6.8 | 8.4 |
| Andreas Nodl | 3.5 | 1.7 |
| Mike Richards | 2.4 | 2.0 |
| Darroll Powe | 0.6 | -1.8 |
| James van Riemsdyk | -1.7 | -0.5 |
| Daniel Briere | -2.9 | -1.8 |
| Scott Hartnell | -3.5 | -1.6 |
| Kris Versteeg | -4.1 | -1.0 |
| Jody Shelley | -6.7 | -10.1 |
| Blair Betts | -8.3 | -11.1 |
| Ville Leino | -8.7 | -3.5 |
| ------------------------ | --------------------- | --------------------- |
| Andrej Meszaros | 3.9 | 3.7 |
| Matt Carle | 3.2 | 5.6 |
| Kimmo Timonen | 2.1 | 3.8 |
| Chris Pronger | 1.0 | 0.9 |
| Braydon Coburn | -0.2 | 1.3 |
| Sean O'Donnell | -4.4 | -7.9 |
| Player | Balanced Corsi 2008-2011 | Balanced Corsi Rel 2008-2011 |
| Nikolay Zherdev | 9.5 | 10.6 |
| Mike Richards | 5.8 | 7.0 |
| Jeff Carter | 4.5 | 7.0 |
| Kris Versteeg | 4.1 | -2.0 |
| Claude Giroux | 4.0 | 7.7 |
| Andreas Nodl | 2.0 | 1.7 |
| Ville Leino | 1.5 | 0.0 |
| James van Riemsdyk | 0.6 | 1.6 |
| Scott Hartnell | -0.5 | 1.4 |
| Darroll Powe | -1.7 | -2.1 |
| Blair Betts | -2.9 | -10.9 |
| Daniel Briere | -5.8 | -1.8 |
| Jody Shelley | -6.5 | -10.5 |
| Dan Carcillo | -7.9 | -5.5 |
| ------------------------ | --------------------- | --------------------- |
| Braydon Coburn | 5.3 | 9.6 |
| Matt Carle | 3.2 | 6.2 |
| Chris Pronger | 1.4 | 0.3 |
| Andrej Meszaros | -0.6 | 0.3 |
| Kimmo Timonen | -0.9 | 1.8 |
| Sean O'Donnell | -2.7 | -6.9 |
| Nick Boynton | -2.9 | -1.6 |
Much like what we saw with the Balanced Zone Shifts recently, it seems the HBL line isn't doing as well this year as other offensively-deployed lines at controlling the shots, but the second and third lines are doing better than most. This might be related to the relatively even balance of skill across the Flyers' top three lines -- their top line might not be as offensively stacked as some teams', but their second and third lines are controlling play.
It's also interesting that O'Donnell and Meszaros are at opposite ends of the spectrum this year even though they've been paired together all year (68% of the time O'Donnell has been on the ice, it's been with Meszaros). I look forward to seeing what the WOWY scripts say -- it may be that Meszaros has been a Corsi beast when he's not saddled with O'Donnell as a partner.
And Zherdev isn't just outperforming his peers this year; he's been doing it his whole career. Over the last four years, he's 17th league-wide among players with 200+ games in Balanced Corsi and 18th in Balanced Corsi Rel. What an enigma.
So to summarize, here's what we've seen:
- Balanced Corsi and Balanced Corsi Rel are new ways to look at how a player controls play relative to his similarly-used peers.
- Both metrics are fine for comparing within a team, but when comparing across teams, Balanced Corsi Rel is much better because Balanced Corsi skews heavily towards players on elite teams. However, Balanced Corsi Rel does have a modest short-term bias towards players on lesser teams, so looking at both numbers is useful; a player who is on the leaderboard of both metrics (like Zherdev) is clearly outperforming his peers.
- When we look at the Flyers, we once again see that their forward depth has been driving their success, as it is their defensively-deployed second and third lines that are really outperforming other team's comparably used players.
Attachment: spreadsheet with Balanced Corsi and Corsi Rel data.
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Interesting look. Coburn’s numbers league wide are impressive from previous years, especially given his QualComp from those years.
It be nice to get a look at QualComp, I definitely wouldn’t be surprised is Meszaros was a Corsi beast this year given his talent level and the competition he is facing. It definitely didn’t surprise me to see him do well in this stat. He is playing 3rd/4th line competition but getting tough Dzone starts.
And again, it’s not surprising to see Z doing well here and Leino not doing well.
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Is this the right room for an argument?
I had the thought that for defensemen, it might be better to balance by Corsi Rel QoC than by OZ%. So I ran a Competition-balanced Corsi/Corsi Rel for defensemen in much the same way as I did this analysis, but it didn’t look all that different from these numbers. I may toss it out in a later post just for the heck of it, but I may not.
Regarding Meszaros, that was my thought as well. But then I realized I was a fan of Balanced Corsi Rel, which ranks him 3rd this year. I think that’s fair. He’s had a great year, and he’s filled in for Pronger more and more.
Oh, and the QualComp doesn’t bother me as much since LBH is getting smoked. I think the biggest part of Meszaros’ numbers is that he’s much better than the average third-pairing defender in the NHL, so this speaks to his skill compared to his use. If/when he gets off the third pairing, I’d be really curious to see his numbers. In other words, what happens when his “similarly used peers” get more in line with his skill level.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah…my comment in the post was less about how Meszaros has outperformed his third-pairing peers (which we’d expect); it was more about combining that with how O’Donnell has underperformed his third-pairing peers.
Since the two are usually together, you’d expect them to have similar scores. The fact that there’s such a big difference between them tells me that Meszaros has probably been great when he’s not with O’Donnell and/or that O’Donnell has been terrible when he’s not with Meszaros. I’m itching to get the WOWY scripts to see.
I wonder how impressive his Corsi w/ Carle (presumably 20-25% of his ice time) is then. Because the zone starts for them is probably around 50% (going off Carle’s OZS% from when I looked at him earlier), which doesn’t change how Mesz is used enough to account for how well that pairing has played in small samples.
Know what I’m trying to say?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the biggest part of Meszaros’ numbers is that he’s much better than the average third-pairing defender in the NHL, so this speaks to his skill compared to his use.
Yeah, that was mostly my point, when the similarly used peers are along the same skill level as he is. He is playing inferior competition and smoking them. He is having a great year, I don’t want to take that away from him.
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Is this the right room for an argument?
i have a question about what to take from this…you say this metric correlates with goal scoring/puck possession/scoring chances which i would assume shows why Z is so good in this stat since he’s kind of a beast at all of those whereas I’d put leino a beast at just puck possession, but does that mean that you would want z on your line over L? could his dominance in this stat just be a result of selfish play, where he’d do his own thing and take his own shots? i understand the value of a player with high numbers here but that doesn’t necessarily mean you want all your players with a high number here does it?
by my pal mal 16 on Mar 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Oops, I didn’t state that very clearly.
Corsi isn’t really an individual stat; it’s a measure of how the team did when that player was on the ice. So Z having a high Corsi means they got a lot of shots when he was on the ice — which probably means they possessed the puck and got scoring chances and scored goals. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he personally was the one carrying the puck.
But his underlying point, I think, needs to be addressed: Doesn’t this suggest that Zherdev should replace Leino? Leino is doing so much worse than his linemates (which itself is difficult to explain), but that doesn’t necessarily support people’s theories that Leino is integral to that line’s success.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you already did…
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah you phrased this much better than i could….so i’m assuming, correct me if wrong, that people like leino on that line bc then you have a crashnbang guy (harts) sniper(briere)and"playmaker"(leino) working together…but this stat seems to say that when z’s on the ice everything gets better anyway so what’s the difference about defined roles? so do you go with defined roles like above and keep L, or assume that people with different styles of play are interchangeable and go with these stats Z?
by my pal mal 16 on Mar 22, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
so what’s the difference about defined roles? so do you go with defined roles like above and keep L, or assume that people with different styles of play are interchangeable and go with these stats Z?
Not sure how to answer this, but I think these numbers show that Leino is underperforming and either a) needs to improve dramatically; or b) sit in favor of Zherdev.
We know that b) won’t happen though. So I would like Eric to try and explain how Leino is so far below Briere and Hartnell here.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the same question as with Mesz/O’Donnell or Kulemin/Grabovski — it means the player is doing something very different when he’s not with his normal linemates than when he is with them.
In Leino’s case, it’s his OZ% that is way off. They all have similar Corsi numbers, but Leino is at 60.4% OZ starts, while Briere and Hartnell are at 52.8% and 52.6%. Since Leino spent 70% of his ice time with both of them (and another 5-10% with each of them individually), there must be a huge difference in zone starts during those times when they’re not together.
See, you can put it much better than me :)
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
The alternative here is
Leino plays less than the other two, who see more important defensive assignments… thus he’s only out there for the plum offensive ones.
It would help if this made more sense from the Kulemin/Grabo/MacArthur comparison, but it doesn’t. Of the 3, Kulemin is generally considered the most effective defender, but he’s gotten the highest proportion of OZ% starts… so that confuses me a bit. It also makes me wonder about things like players getting trapped on the ice for icing… if a guy is stuck on the ice for an icing it’d knock his OZ% down a tad… I really wish they tracked this stuff… because in a way it would penalize the guy that short shifts who is closest to the bench to get off when he needs to.
What wing does Leino play?
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I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
shift length
would help this number out for me… I’m going to see if I can find that data …
Yeah for Grabo, MacArthur, and Kulemin that seems to bear some fruit… Grabo’s average shift length is 50.02 seconds, MacArthur’s is 48.43 seconds, and Kulemin’s is only 45.60 seconds… he changes more quickly, so he may not be stuck on the ice as often.
This is also a result I’m sure of the longer shifts that go with increased PP time, but it’s fairly significant considering Kulemin actually has more total ice time than MacArthur.
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by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
how that works out for Leino though, since he has longer shifts than Hartnell on average… but he’s shorter than Briere by 2 seconds.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thing to keep in mind is that you can’t use EA Sports NHL series thinking where you want to match a line up with a power forward a play maker and a sniper, because they will work better than 2 snipers and a power forward etc. These are professional athletes, over time they leanr their linemates styles, they adapt. Some players take longer, some are more adaptable, but in general good players play well and mediorce players play okay, there is no mgic chemistry equation to apply to a line.
Leino has been extremely sheltered and his Ozone start % is the number driving his balanced corsi to be different, this tells me, that for whatever reason, the coach doesn’t trust Leino in the Dzone and/or he doesn’t trust Danny to win a Dzone draw, so puts another center out in Leino’s place to help with Dzone draws.
I think at the end of the day, Z and Leino are both players best used with sheltered zone starts in a scoring line role (meaning try to get them out against 3rd line competition). Unfortunately, only one line can get these favorable starting points and match ups for the most part, and Leino is already the established RW for that line. I think you could plug in Z and have a line that is just as effective (given some time), but it’s too late in the season now to mess with line combos IMO.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
It’s not an individual number of shots directed at the net for and against (Corsi includes misses and blocks, plus shots on net and goals in case you aren’t aware), but rather it counts the number of shots directed at the net for everyone on the ice. So if Leino is on with let’s say, Hartnell Briere, Meszaros and OD, so if Mesaros takes a shot, and Briere fires a rebound, that counts for a +2 in Leino’s Corsi.
So Coris is a possession, or control of play, metric. It isn’t an exact science with score effects etc, but it gives you a good idea of who is controlling the play when on the ice with the 4 other players he is out there with.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
No problem, if you have anymore question about any of this stuff, keep them coming. Eric is one of the best people in the stats community at explaining advanced stats to people who are new to them.
And on occasion, Geoff, Todd, Snevik, or myself will jump in but won’t explain it nearly as well.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
No problem, if you have anymore question about any of this stuff, keep them coming.
Absolutely. And that goes to anyone.
Eric is one of the best people in the stats community at explaining advanced stats to people who are new to them.
Completely true, and even Pittsburgh fans agree.
And on occasion, Geoff, Todd, Snevik, or myself will jump in but won’t explain it nearly as well.
But we’ll try!
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you know how the results of this method compare to the adjusted corsi formula JLikens assembled?
I’m also surprised Pronger isn’t alot stronger by this method, but he is getting up there in age.
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Dang, I didn’t know about that. I emailed Gabe before I did this to ask if he knew of anything like this and didn’t get a reply.
They are indeed pretty similar, since my expected Corsi value is pretty linear across most of the range. But like with Balanced Corsi, his adjusted Corsi numbers are tough to compare across teams.
Agreed, and I like that you tried relative Corsi to try to circumvent those troubles. JL’s article says an O-Zone start was worth .8 Corsi. What do your numbers say is the correlation? What about for Rel. Corsi?
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by George E. Ays on Mar 22, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Fitting the region from OZ% of 44% to OZ% of 56% to a straight line gives an expected Corsi of 0.904x – 44.78 (R2 =.952) and an expected Corsi Rel of 0.5397x – 26.291 (R2 = .897).
Outside the 44-56% range is where it starts to deviate from linearity more significantly.
Alright, thanks.
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by George E. Ays on Mar 22, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So the Leafs should probably re-sign MacArthur is what you’re saying.
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I wonder what Kulemin’s number is, he puts up similar points on that line must be similar to his mates.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
The top Leafs for four-year total Balanced Corsi are Grabovski (5.9), Kulemin (4.7), Kessel (4.2), Lebda (3.8), Carmstrong (3.6). For Balanced Corsi Rel, it’s Armstrong (9.5), Grabovski (9.2), Macarthur (5.4), Kadri (5.3), Kulemin (5.1).
For this year, it’s Grabovski (11.6), Macarthur (10.2), Kulemin (5.2), Caputi (3.8), Kadri (2.4) in BC, or Grabovski (21.4), Macarthur (19.2), Kulemin (12.7), Kadri (10.4), Armstrong (4.2) in BCR.
W/r/t Kulemin, he only has three less points than Grabbo and plays over 60% of his minutes with them both. What is the reason for the discrepancy?
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s the same question I have about Meszaros and O’Donnell. My guess is that it’s a clue that either he’s done much worse without them or they’ve done much better without him. But I don’t know for sure.
Maybe, but the time when the three of them are without one another is very very small.
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s at EV he also has 5% on the PP with them.
He has played with Grabbo 87% of the time this season
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by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 22, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure BTN’s Corsi numbers are built off 5v5, rather than PP/PK.
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that isn't 56% of his time
that’s 56% of his point production… you’re looking at production not shifts. This is the one you want.
And it says 58% ES + 5% PP so around 63% total.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
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I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, all of this data is based on even strength data. So I’d suggest this, which says almost 70% of his ES ice time is with both of them, and a lot more than that with Grabovski.
right
missed the earlier response… either way I also think there’s some exaggeration in the terms “much worse” and “much better” … we’re talking a slight differential in attempted shots for and against over hundreds and hundreds of minutes played together. We’re looking long term here, and seeing a slight differential in player quality, but I think in some ways the difference between Kulemin, Grabovski, and MacArthur highlights how small the gap is in reality.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
/nod
But look at this:
OZ% — Kulemin 52.3, Grabovski 51.5, Macarthur 50.9
Corsi — Kulemin 6.4, Grabovski 11.8, Macarthur 10.5
So in that short time apart, Kulemin got a lot more offensive zone starts and controlled play a lot less than the other two did without him.
how many more OZone starts is
a difference of 0.8% really? I mean if that’s “a lot” then Grabovski got a lot more than MacArthur with his increase of 0.6%…
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
0.8% isn’t a big difference.
But if he spends 80% of his ice time with Grabovski, he has to have a lot more OZ starts in that other 20% to bump the overall average by 0.8% — somewhere around 4% more.
Not necessarily
you’re assuming that the 80% of the shifts they’re on the ice for have the same distribution as all of his shifts… for both of them.
It is quite possible that the majority of Kulemin’s OZ starts come with Grabovski, and then his DZ starts come without Grabovski… irrespective of the other numbers you’re seeing. I realize it would be harder to explain, but it’s possible.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Kulemin
has had 288 OZ faceoffs, 263 DZ faceoffs, and another 396 NZ faceoffs at ES according to BtN.
Grabovski has had 281 OZ faceoffs, 265 DZ faceoffs, and another 408 NZ faceoffs at ES.
That’s only 7 extra faceoffs… he doesn’t have a lot more OZ starts… he just has fewer starts overall… the NZ starts change the percentage quite a bit.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That's something else I think you might want to consider
I realize you’re using OZ% as a proxy for usage, but it negates the total amount of ice time as a factor. Zherdev has only 150 OZ faceoffs (47.9 OZ%) this season at 5 on 5, but you’re comparing him to other players like Sergei Kostitsyn (47.8%), Patrick Marleau (47.7%) or Vincent Lecavalier (47.7%). The thing is Kostitsyn has been on the ice for 231 OZ faceoffs, Marleau has been out for 314 OZ faceoffs, and Lecavalier has been on the ice for 216 OZ faceoffs… he’s seen half as many starts as Marleau, and we’re comparing them as if they’re used similarly…
I’m not sure that makes sense? Is there a way to modify this at all? Perhaps combine total faceoffs in a range with the percentage? refine it a bit further?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Why does number matter? The Corsi and Corsi Rel numbers are rate stats, so it shouldn’t matter whether the guy’s playing 6 minutes a game or 16…
well for starters
sample size… I hope you wouldn’t argue that a guy who has been on the ice for 10 faceoffs in the OZ and DZ with a 50/50 split is roughly equivalent to these guys?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
and doesn't the
6 vs. 16 say something about usage? which I thought was what you were aiming to control for?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, there might be a quality-of-competition differential if the 6-minute guy is being shielded, but ignoring that for now, I’d say the two are being used in the same manner but not with the same frequency.
could you control for more than one variable at a time?
and combine Corsi Rel QoC and OZ%? Or is there not enough data for that?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just wondering
if it’d throttle the restriction to such a degree as to make the groupings meaningless for most purposes…l’d think with 4 seasons worth of data you’d be approaching a pretty decent sample size.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
btw
I’m not trying to be hypercritical here… I really like what you’ve done, I’m just wondering if there’s ways to refine things further. I plan on playing with the same info myself going forwards.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s possible, but I’d definitely be nervous about stretching the data too thin. I fiddled with balancing by Corsi Rel QoC earlier and will probably work with it a bit more and see if I can get anywhere interesting.
I'm thinking about a 3D plot
to see if more groupings come out in the wash…. maybe I’m presuming a bit much too soon.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 23, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, sample size is fair. But Zherdev’s sustained that play over his four-year average, so I’m not too worried about him in particular.
fair enough
although he’s done it on two other teams also… with different usage…
I admit he’s a very solid player, being underused this season.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
NZ starts don’t count though — OZ% is the fraction of end-zone starts in the offensive zone: OZ / (OZ + DZ) (which is admittedly weird).
You’re right that it doesn’t have to be Kulemin having a lot more offensive starts than his usual in the 20% when he’s without Grabovski. But he does have to have a lot more offensive starts than Grabovski does in that time.
That is, maybe Grabovski is always at 51.5 and Kulemin is at 51.5 when they’re together and at 55.5 when they’re apart. Or maybe Kulemin is always at 52.3 and Grabovski is at 52.3 when they’re together and at 48.3 when they’re apart. Or maybe it’s somewhere in between, but whatever it is, I think there needs to be a ~4% differential when they’re apart, more or less.
He's done worse without them
because he’s played on Kessel and Bozak’s wing a bit.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
also
to be fair… Kulemin isn’t a puck possession or shot guy… he’s a dig in the corners and retrieval guy… he’s also more “position” oriented… that means he likely suffers a bit from the perspective of corsi (shooting possession) measures.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Mar 22, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Filed under “another reason to like Colby Armstrong.” Also, if you need another reason to promote Balanced Corsi Rel over Balanced Corsi, just point to Brett Lebda being in the top 4.
This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.
And Grabbo really IS amazing.
You can't give up hope just because it's hopeless. You have to hope even harder, cover your ears, and go 'blah blah blah blah blah!'
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 22, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa, fascinating stuff, both today and the BZS article. The numbers clearly do not like Leino though. We should ask Keith Jones about him instead!
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Eric
I’m not sure if you’ve considered this, but have you come up with a way of combining the balanced zone shift and balanced corsi results yet?
have you also considered looking at doing balanced Delta (if Tom Awad made the numbers available)?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I had thought about looking for a correlation between the balanced zone shift and corsi numbers, but hadn’t thought about trying to combine them. It’s an interesting idea for a value metric — balanced Corsi measures whether the five on the ice actually took more shots than you’d expect from where they started, and we could also give them credit for the future shots that the next shift will take if they move play up into the offensive zone.
I could do it with Delta easily enough if I can get the numbers; I’ll look into it.
If there is a single article on this site that I wish Lavvy would be forced to sit down, read and acknowledge, it is this one.
That he has healthy scratched Nick Zherdev for close to half this season while shrugging his shoulders and pretending this is about effort, is enough to make me want to put my head through a wall.
This is just a fact about sports in general. Coaches are human beings. They have players they like and others they don’t like. Sometimes the players you don’t like are better than the ones that you do. Good coaches find a way to step outside their personal biases and personality conflicts. What is best for the team in pro sports, is to put the best players together and put them in situations where they can succeed.
What this season has said to me so far is that Lavvy… as good a coach as he is in many ways, has an issue with his personal feelings that is clouding his judgement. He’s overly concerned with matching up lines based on his beliefs rather than simply challenging the players to succeed, and all the tinkering has done is confuse and demoralize the guys who have to lace up the skates and play.
I would think as a marginally skilled player in his own right, Lavvy would show more understanding of the psychological aspects of the game than he has. Lavvy was a guy who got by on grit and hard work, and sometimes I wonder if he leans towards players who he thinks are more like he was?
We’re really fortunate to have players like Pronger and Kimmo, and at this point a veteran team loaded with talent and playoff experience. With the excellent upgrades and general good fortune the team has experienced this year, it’s really hard to understand how the team could be in such a funk right now.
Nothing to add. Just wanted to say this outstanding work. I don’t know when advanced analysis landed in Philly, but please keep it up guys.
Wow.
Extremely good article. Thank you for your time and effort. I look forward to reading more from you.
by David Spurrier on Mar 23, 2011 10:07 AM EDT reply actions

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