Tracking zone entries
Recently, Travis has written a lot about how part of the Flyers struggles have been the result of fancy play at the blue line instead of getting pucks deep in the zone.
It got us thinking about whether this was something that could be tracked. Geoff volunteered to do the hard work of actually keeping notes on game 3 of the Flyers-Sabres series -- lots of credit goes to him, and please use the comments to guilt him into continuing to do this. For every offensive zone entry (excluding dump-and-change plays), he noted which player sent the puck in and how they did it. After the jump, we'll take a look at what we can learn from this data.
Question 1: Who brings the puck into the zone for the Flyers at even strength? How do they do it?
| Player | Number of Entries | Entries by Carry | Entries by Dump | Entries by Pass | Entries by Tip | Other Entries |
| Carter | 8 | 63% | 25% | 13% | 0% | 0% |
| Hartnell | 7 | 43% | 29% | 0% | 29% | 0% |
| Leino | 7 | 86% | 0% | 14% | 0% | 0% |
| Briere | 6 | 33% | 33% | 0% | 33% | 0% |
| Richards | 6 | 50% | 17% | 0% | 17% | 17% |
| van Riemsdyk | 6 | 33% | 33% | 0% | 33% | 0% |
| Timonen | 5 | 0% | 80% | 20% | 0% | 0% |
| Powe | 4 | 75% | 25% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| Giroux | 3 | 100% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| Betts | 3 | 0% | 100% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| O'Donnell | 3 | 0% | 100% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| Versteeg | 2 | 50% | 0% | 50% | 0% | 0% |
| Coburn | 2 | 0% | 100% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| Carle | 2 | 0% | 0% | 50% | 50% | 0% |
| Zherdev | 1 | 100% | 0% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| Carcillo | 1 | 0% | 0% | 0% | 100% | 0% |
| Syvret | 1 | 0% | 100% | 0% | 0% | 0% |
| Meszaros | 0 |
Some things jump out at me from this table:
- Hartnell-Briere-Leino had a lot of offensive zone entries, ranking 2, 3, and 4 on the team. I'm not prepared to say that means they pushed the play forward though -- I suspect at least part of it was because they weren't deployed in tough defensive situations. When we have more than one game's data, we'll get a better handle on what to expect from a scoring line.
- Leino never wanted to play dump and chase (6 carries, one pass), which is why Travis was OK with his benching. Hartnell and Briere both dumped it in as often as any forward, however.
- I'm really surprised Zherdev didn't have a more active role in gaining the blue line. Carcillo was the only forward with as few zone entries as Zherdev.
- Timonen led the defense with 5 zone entries, while Syvret and Meszaros combined for 1. I would not have guessed that.
Question 2: What kind of play is most successful? Are the Flyers getting too fancy?
As a team, the Flyers controlled the puck across the line (carry or pass) half the time and dumped or tipped it in half the time. Again, with one game's data, I don't know whether that's high or low, or whether they do better or worse when carrying it in more. But I can look at which kinds of zone entries were most successful in this game:
| Entry type | Frequency | Result in goals | Shot attempts per entry | Counterattack frequency |
| Carries | 43% | 0.0% | 0.76 | 24% |
| Dump-ins | 34% | 4.3% | 0.26 | 17% |
| Passes | 7% | 0.0% | 0.60 | 0% |
| Tip-ins | 13% | 0.0% | 0.11 | 22% |
| Other | 1% | 0.0% | 0.00 | 0% |
The last two columns might need some explanation. "Shot attempts per entry" is how many Corsi events (on goal, missed, or blocked shots) the Flyers got before either the puck came out of the zone or there was a whistle. "Counterattack frequency" is how often the Flyers' zone entry was turned back quickly and forcefully enough for Buffalo to get a shot attempt within 30 seconds.
There are a couple of other things that I didn't show because of small sample sizes. I am also tracking which entries result in offensive zone faceoffs, so we know how every zone entry ends -- with a goal, a zone exit, or an offensive zone faceoff. We can also treat the faceoff as another kind of zone entry and track how well teams do at getting shots and goals off of the faceoff, before the puck leaves the zone.
Back to the question: what kind of play is most successful? It shouldn't be a surprise that if you can control the puck as you enter the zone, you are often better set up to get the offense going and generate shots. But while I'm not going to draw general conclusions on one game's data, the difference here is larger than I expected. The Flyers got 0.74 shots when they carried or passed the puck in, versus 0.21 when they dumped or tipped it in, with only a marginal difference in counterattack frequency. Carrying the puck in was quite effective in that game.
Question 3: Whose zone entries are most successful? Who do we want to have the puck?
Carter brought the puck into the zone 8 times in game 3, and those 8 possessions generated eight shot attempts. In contrast, HBL's 20 combined zone entries generated only 6 shots (including just 1 in Hartnell's 7 entries). I won't generalize from just one game, but Carter did generate a lot of offense on Monday.
On the flip side, 4 out of the 6 times Richards brought the puck into the offensive zone resulted in a quick shot for Buffalo. Again, don't read anything predictive into the small sample size, but in that one game the Flyers were better off taking a faceoff in the neutral zone than having Richards control the puck approaching the blue line.
Question 4: What can we learn about the power play?
Again, the sample size is tough. Watching one of the worst power play teams in the league for a single game doesn't provide enough information to generalize on effective strategy. But I will say that it doesn't seem like a good thing that with an extra man on the ice they were able to carry out a controlled entry only 33% of the time: they had three carries, four dumps, a tip, and an "other". That's probably a big part of why they generated only four total shot attempts and only two shots on goal on the power play.
Question 5: Does strategy change as a function of score?
It is a virtual certainty that we don't have enough data yet to answer this question. But let's take a look anyway, just for fun.
Since score effects get larger with either a larger score differential or a bigger lead, I'll draw the line at 16:44 in the second period, when Zherdev made it a two-goal game for the first time. Before that arbitrary dividing line, the Flyers had 22 entries by pass or carry and 22 by dump/tip/other. After that line, they had 12 entries by pass or carry and 11 by dump/tip/other.
The entries per minute got slightly smaller (from 1.2 to 1.0), but the style of entry didn't -- they didn't appear to be just dumping it in deep and forechecking. Even in the last three minutes of the game, they twice carried the puck into the Buffalo zone.
Conclusion
Geoff is always encouraging me to put a tidy conclusion at the end of my stories; I'll humor him on this one, since he did a lot of the work for it. I'm excited to see what we can learn by tracking zone entries going forwards, both about team strategy and about individual performance. Even just a single game's data highlighted an individual who carried the puck in a ton (Leino), an individual who didn't carry it in nearly as much as I'd expect (Zherdev), and a surprisingly large differential in team success on carries versus dump-ins.
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Your writing in this is brilliant. Everything is set up for making Geoff continue to do this…well played sir, well played indeed.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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Awesome stuff. I agree with Geoff on always having a conclusion.
Being a novice to advanced stats but having a good knowledge of scientific writing I always look for a conclusion in SB site articles and way too many times I don’t see them.
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Good stuff
Obviously we can’t make a lot of generalizations based on one game but it’s interesting (to me at least) that although the team generated more shot attempts when carrying the puck in, they didn’t score on them. I wonder if a measurement of chances per zone entry would be more even between “carries” and “dump-ins”, due to forwards settling for low percentage perimeter shots when they carry the puck in (read: Carter).
There’s also perhaps an effect on the stats caused by odd-man rushes. It makes intuitive sense that if the Flyers are coming in on a 2 on 1 they are more likely to carry or pass into the offensive zone than if they are outnumbered by the defenders. That might explain the higher number of shots. I don’t know if the statistics confirm that though.
Either way, very cool post. Always good to see some in-depth statistical analysis of Philly sports.
I can pull out shot distance to see whether the shots they got after a dump-in were from closer to the net than the ones from a carry-in. I’ll do that later today.
It’s true that odd-man rushes get lumped in with 5-on-5 carry-ins here. It might be worthwhile to think about separating them here.
Thanks for the input.
Great stuff
It seems that carrying the puck in is much more effective than what I’ve been noticing. Either I am completely wrong in disliking this method of zone entry or the small sample size is playing tricks on the numbers.
And, just curious, what was the “other?”
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I don’t think it is effective. It is effective at getting a shot off per carry in, but most likely not at getting set up properly in the Offensive Zone. Carry-ins that are odd man chances are good, but those carrys the Flyers do sometimes where they enter into a swarm of opposing players, is not good. They might get one shot off, and that might make the Corsi look good for carry ins, but it’s not a good game plan.
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Yes, but most carry in’s aren’t 1 on 4’s.
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But a lot of carry ins the Flyers have done this series are “skate in, see opposing players, side-skate, take easy shot, head to bench”
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Not necessarily. I see a lot of carry in’s, pull ups, then passes too. Unless Geoff has a break down, neither of us are right.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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More over, you would expect if you maintain possession upon zone entry, that is would be an easier way to set up than puck retrieval. That’s just logical.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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True, but I think on the PP, the dump/chase method would be more effective setting up. If the Flyers can get in deep on the dump and hold pucks in (something I haven’t been seeing much of on the PP), there’s no need to dipsy-doodle around the opposing D.
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If you are assuming everything works to plan, like you are in your example with the dump and chase, I would still prefer them carrying the puck in (or passing), maintaining possession the whole time.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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Just from a logical stand point…if both things go exactly as planned, I would prefer a carry in or pass in rather than a dump in. This has nothing to do with the results of this one game, which you can’t draw much from other than, in this one game, they did well on the carry in.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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The problem with carrying the puck in is that the whole team doesn’t react to it like a dump and chase, nor does the puck always get deep enough, or that you can get far enough before a turn over.
I mean, it’s not a sure thing. And if the dump and chase method fails, it’s failing at the extreme far end of the ice. If the carry in method fails, it can set up break away.
I’m not at all against carrying it in, but I do think there are a bit more risks involved, and that it is not some kind of magic hockey bullet.
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this.
if a dump/chase fails, and the other team gets the puck they still have to go 200ft. and in the case of the PP (which is what I was talking about), they have to shoot it through your 5 guys, or they could pass it out when they have less players on the ice. Get the puck deep on the PP and you make it difficult for the other team to kill.
You don’t necessarily have to have everything go right to keep the puck in the zone.
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You don’t necessarily have to have everything go right to keep the puck in the zone.
You don’t need that in either scenario.
This started here:
I don’t think it (carry ins) is effective. It is effective at getting a shot off per carry in, but most likely not at getting set up properly in the Offensive Zone.
And you continued here:
True, but I think on the PP, the dump/chase method would be more effective setting up. If the Flyers can get in deep on the dump and hold pucks in (something I haven’t been seeing much of on the PP), there’s no need to dipsy-doodle around the opposing D.If you can assume they can get it deep on the dump and hold it in the zone, why can’t I assume they can maintain possession on a carry in. And if you assume possession is maintained, then I prefer the puck movement advanatge in the carry in method.
Now you both have changed, but the potential turn over scenario is worse…which was not part of the discussion.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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My initial point is that I observe the dump/chase method being more effective than the carry-in method. However, the numbers don’t back it up.
I’d agree that assuming possession is gained, the carry-in method is desired. My point is that my observations tell a different story. The only way we’ll be able to actually understand this is if Geoff keeps tracking this.
Remember, I’m talking about the PP here…when it comes to even strength, I think the dump/chase method would not be as effective as on the PP.
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I know, I’m talking about both situations.
Things I’m excluding…if you are out manned going in to the zone, I prefer a dump and chase, I think that’s obvious. If you have an odd man rush, I think it’s obvious that a carry/pass in is preferred. I’m talking about the situations when your roughly at equal strength moving in to the zone in general.
Obviously there are always specific circumstances from there. If I see a defender step up early, I will chip around him, make a pass, or carry the puck wide in to the corner…if he backs in, I’m going to carry it in.
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You are correct, sir. There are so many factors (style of defense of other team, time left in your shift, individual skills of the player with the puck, quality of the ice, other things I wasn’t really thinking about) that I don’t think we can make conclusions unless we have a lot more data.
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Yeah…I guess my whole thing is…if you are going to assume it works…why not carry/pass it in. Like on the PP, I’ve always found it easier to set up with carrying it in, and dumping it to the trailer at the point (assuming that play is available) than I do dumping it in. That’s just based on personal experience for setting up a PP. If the room is available, why take the chance of a bad bounce if you don’t have to…just don’t understand that thought process. But again, just my opinion.
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Ok, so your argument stems from a risk stand point. That’s something different than your initial point.
The whole team reacts to the play in general. During a dump in, there are less possible outcomes…with a carry in, a player can make a dumb decision and zig instead of zag (over simplified but you get my point) which wasn’t anticipated. So in that regard, yes, if is more risky from a turn over perspective. But you’ve moved the goal posts from where you started.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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I think a dump in is less risky and with a larger reward. On a typical carry in, I don’t see much set up or a real scoring chance.
Of course, I am a giant fan of carry ins that are oddman rushes, but when I think of a carry in, I am thinking of something a bit lazier.
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I think you have a perceived notion of what a carry in looks like.
I don’t disagree with the risk at all…but a carry/pass in, if the play is there (not just odd man rush situation) is the play a prefer. Look, if it’s one guy a head of the play with two defenders back, clearly the right play is to dump and chase. But if you are moving up in a 2 on 2, with trailers coming, and lanes for a carry/pass in, you should take that .
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I’d be inclined to agree. I think the Flyers’s strength is rushing the net.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
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Dump-ins
It would be unfair to see dump-ins as an entry method that results in low shots, as I am sure a lot of dump-ins were for changes and resulted in zero shots or even zero time of possession.
I am unsure if they count on this list or not, but I assume they do. Correct me if I’m wrong. But even then, not every dump-in works. The goals created by dump-ins is more important to me.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
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Geoff excluded dump and change plays. This only includes plays where the Flyers made an immediate effort to regain the puck.
Ah, well, it must be the other reason then, the whole losing possession part. So I guess dump-ins only work when they work. Are they too risky?
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It’s also just one game. Maybe they happened to make a good move once or twice on the carry-ins. Maybe they didn’t give as much effort as they should on the board battles after dump-ins. Maybe the defense was sitting back a little more than usual.
For now, let’s just say that carrying it in was awesome on Monday, and that if Geoff sticks with it we’ll be able to generalize a lot more in the future.
Which reminds me
Geoff, stick with it.
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please use the comments to guilt him into continuing to do this.
Geoff – pandora’s box is open, you’re not allowed to stop now. At least not for the playoffs. I want retro-fits to game 1 and 2 as well.
One thing I’d want to see is merging this further with Todd’s scoring chances.
I did this for Dubinsky in one game to prove a point against someone (they claimed he ‘always’ dumps the puck in). Never thought to do it for the whole team, but it is pretty enlightening.
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meh…I clipped my own post. I meant to add that this is fantastic work. Kudos.
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by George E. Ays on Apr 20, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I blinked and PHI became the hotbed for advanced metrics.
This is great stuff. Geoff there is no turning back now.
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Great stuff.
“Entries by Tip” makes me laugh, though.
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Shot distance
Tiny sample size, yadda yadda yadda.

Median on carry/pass is 36 feet. Median on dump/tip is 43 feet. Carter’s post-dump-in goal was from 45 feet out.
Shit. I mean “Awesome” This is popular.
What do people want me to take notes of?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 2:37 PM EDT reply actions
For carry ins you might want to separate odd man rushes versus outmanned rushes.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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Or PP versus ES zone entries.
Obviously you can’t track all the factors I mentioned above.
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Yeha, but I think we need to isolate the superman (G going 1 v 4) type situations as well.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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Do you need to do the same for dump-in’s? I can picture some scenarios where that’s not trivial to decide in real time.
Yeah if you separate for carry ins, you should for dump ins (and anything else for that matter)…if you want to get a true comparison. But are we getting in the weeds too much here?
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I’m just worried about making it easy for Geoff to make real-time notes so he doesn’t get tired of it and quit.
Dump-ins seem particularly difficult to identify as being even strength or undermanned, since the play isn’t necessarily flowing the way it is on an odd man rush. And like you, I’m nervous about people wanting to draw the wrong conclusion if we only separate out one of them.
Would you want “2-1”, “3-1”, “3-2”?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Counterattack goal percentage shouldn’t be difficult, right? See if some of these turnovers lead to more dangerous chances, I guess.
That’s something I can pull out in the after-the-fact processing, just like the shot attempts against.
How about the opposing team’s entries too? Then we’d be able to analyze how good the Flyers are at defending against each type of entry. Even if you can’t grab the name of the opponent as easily, just the time and type of entry would be useful.
Um… No.
I don’t have a working knowledge of every Sabres’ jersey number/what they look like in order to make that easy. I can’t tell you how often I saw an 8 dump the puck in, didn’t see what the other number was, but knew whether it was Giroux, Briere, or Richards without having to rewind. I can’t do that for the opposition.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
What if you just recorded it as a team? If we’re looking for how the Flyers defend it makes less of a difference who specifically was bringing in the puck, right?
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Yeah, that’s what I meant by “even if you can’t grab the name of the opponent as easily, just the time and type of entry would be useful”.
Basically, just write down the time and D/C/P/T/X for the opponent’s entries. Don’t worry about who it is.
Missed that part. That I should be able to do.
So what I’m doing is: What I did last game, but noting whether the Flyers entered in an odd-man rush or not. Then, just marking down how Buffalo entered the zone at what time? Count odd-man rushes as well?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely. Does it make it easier for you if I do player numbers or names?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as you’re doing this, let’s go the distance.
http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/11/17/1818041/the-touches-stat-the-next-horizon-in-advanced-stats
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You must be joking.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you saying you have something better to do?
by Eric T. on Apr 20, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The actual chart itself seems fairly simple, but… tracking time of event? Watching live? hahaha
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah, you don’t need time of event for touches.
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Which is what I lack.
If someone breaks it down real simple like, maybe. Where’s Ferrari with a great script?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I can write a script. That’s the (relatively) easy part; keeping up with the action when you’re taking the notes is the hard part.
Right.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 20, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
And if Eric can’t I will. As long as your the guy tracking.
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I’d track the Oilers next season and I’m sure we could find some people for other teams.
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I was talking about league-wide tracking.
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Well, I’ve never tried it, so I guess I shouldn’t dismiss it out of hand. But it sounds to me like it’d be impossible to keep up with in real time, and I don’t think we can talk Geoff into a tracking project that requires him to slow the game down a lot.
First off, Kudos on this. Zone entries have been a huge issue for the Yotes for a number of years now. I’d love to see things broken out ES and PP wise.
Second, I’m with you. Derek’s idea is great. Problem is finding people who have nothing to do for 60 hours a week. If, as Derek suggests, you could get the league to do it then its another story. I’d assume the stats would be a bit behind game wise as you intimate. I can’t imagine they’d turn up in the Event Summaries unless the league spent a bunch of money on stats folks to watch games.
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Great stuff guys. This will be interesting once you get a reasonable sample size. Also it’ll be interesting to see if it changes with opponent and location (a site has more active boards so more dump & chase?)
While you’re at it Geoff, you should track entered zone and “Cartered” as a category. /s
by zot22 on Apr 20, 2011 5:46 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This is really awesome. Definitely needs to be done more.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Apr 20, 2011 6:58 PM EDT reply actions

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