How much better would the Philadelphia Flyers be with a big name goalie?
Would it surprise you to know that one of the big stories in Philadelphia this offseason surrounds the goaltending? Shocking, right?
As a result, the Philadelphia Flyers are rumored to interested in a big name goalie this summer -- someone along the lines of Tomas Vokoun, Ilya Bryzgalov or Miikka Kiprusoff.
There is no denying that each of those three goalies would be an improvement over Brian Boucher and Michael Leighton, and they may even be an improvement on Sergei Bobrovsky. But what people are forgetting -- or choosing to ignore because it doesn't fit their narrative -- is that the Flyers got pretty damn good goaltending this year.
Boucher stopped 92.5 percent of all even-strength shots this year, while Bobrovsky stopped 92.3 percent. Both goalies were better at even-strength than Michal Neuvirth, Jonathan Quick, Jonathan Bernier, Craig Anderson, Jimmy Howard, Jaroslav Halak and others.
Oh, they both also stopped more than Vokoun and Kiprusoff. And that's aside from Boucher stopping 93.6 percent of all even-strength shots against Buffalo in the first round of the playoffs.
But that doesn't stop the stories about the goaltending not being good enough. Not after the team got unceremoniously swept out of the second round by Boston.
Obviously, Brian Boucher is not a better goalie than Vokoun and Bryzgalov, but he stopped more shots than they did last year. There are many reasons for that, but the biggest two are luck and team defense. We've been over this earlier in the year when talking about media perception on goalie skill, but let's look at it more concretely.
How many goals would the Flyers give up if they acquire Vokoun, Bryzgalov, or Kiprusoff? We'll compare that versus how many they would give up if they kept Bobrovsky as the starter and have either Boucher or Leighton behind him next season.
First, the method.
In order to figure out how many goals the team would give up with certain goalies in net, I first looked at what the Flyers' did in 2010-11. NHL.com breaks it down into three situations -- even-strength, power play, and penalty kill -- and shows how many shots the Flyers gave up in each situation.
Since different situations lead to a different quality of shots (a shot is much more likely to go in when you have one less skater than the other team) and there are a lot more even strength shots than special teams shots, this allows for a more accurate picture of a goalie's skill.
From there, I calculated how many shots per game the Flyers gave up and multiplied that per-game rate by how many games next year's "starter" would play in, coming up with an expected shot total for each game situation.
Then, I took career save percentages of those goalies rumored to be on the Flyers' wish list to determine how many of those shots we should expect each goalie to stop next year. Naturally, this doesn't account for the luck factor, but we'll even do a hypothetical goalie who puts up a Vezina-winning season to see what they would change.
| Position | 10/11 Actual | Vokoun-Bob | Bryzgalov-Bob | Kiprusoff-Bob | Bob-Boosh | Bob-Leighton | Vezina-Bob |
| Starter | 130 | 127 | 129 | 132 | 133 | 133 | 114 |
| Backup | 80 | 77 | 77 | 77 | 87 | 88 | 77 |
| Difference | -6 | -4 | -1 | 10 | 11 | -19 |
This year, the Flyers gave up 2,465 shots, ranking 13th in the NHL in shots against per game. The numbers above are based on the Flyers giving up the same number of shots.
It's crude, sure, but there isn't a better way to predict how many shots the Flyers will give up next year. Also, the above gives the No. 1 goalie 52 starts, and the backup goalie 30. Not coincidentally, that's exactly how the Flyers allocated their starts this past season.
If the team sticks with Bobrovsky and Boucher next year, they can expect to give up ten more goals than they did this past year, mostly as a result of Boucher reverting to his career norm.
Now, some of that is because he was playing behind a better team defense. Some of that is luck. Maybe the team defense holds and single-handedly makes Boucher four goals better. Who knows.
Either way, ten goals equals less than two wins.
If the team signs Vokoun to replace Bob, and then Bob replaces Boucher as the backup, they can expect to give up six fewer goals than they did last year. Bryzgalov saves them four. Miikka Kiprusoff saves them one. The fact is that these goalies just aren't that much better than how well Bobrovsky and Boucher performed in 2010-11.
It is perfectly reasonable to say the Flyers need a better goalie because Boucher will not replicate this past season again next year. The Flyers can expect to give up ten more goals next year if they stick with their current tandem, based solely on regression to the mean.
But the Flyers spent less than $2.7 million on their two goalies last year, and those goalies managed to be just six goals worse than the $7.5 million hypothetical Vokoun-Bobrovsky tandem. Spending $4.8 million to get two additional points is ludicrous.
Over on the right in the table, you see the hypothetical Vezina-winning goalie. That Vezina-winning goalie is based on the averages of the last three individuals to win the Vezina -- Ryan Miller, Tim Thomas and Martin Brodeur. This hypothetical goalie would save the Flyers 16 goals over the course of a season, which equates to a little less than three wins.
The question then becomes, how do you know who that Vezina-winning goalie will be? Did anyone think it would be Miller last year? Thomas the year before? What about Kiprusoff in 2006? The point is, you have no idea who it will be in any given year. Goalies are fickle like that. Thomas alone proves that quite well.
If the Flyers could somehow locate who the 2012 Vezina Trophy winner will be and acquire him, they will get an additional three wins next year.
... except for the fact that they have to fit him under the cap, and in order to do that, you probably have to trade a high-priced skater, who both scores and prevents goals, or you don't re-sign someone who both scores and prevents goals ...

Goalies aren't free.
In order for the team to acquire Miikka Kiprusoff, the Flyers would have to find over $5.8 million to afford him. (And again, Kiprusoff would only add two wins for that money.) How do you pay for that?
You aren't just subtracting a high salary to afford Kiprusoff, since he would require a trade. You're subtracting a high salary, losing a roster player and likely more while saving, at best, eleven goals against.
If you sign Tomas Vokoun, you save sixteen goals. But can you then afford to re-sign Ville Leino? Probably not. Where do you replace his production?
Point is, you don't. You went from a net-gain in net to a net-loss as a team.
If you are familiar with GVT -- an advanced metric attempting to replicate VORP in baseball -- you know that it is a fairly decent metric for comparing player contributions across teams (even if there are some flaws).
Last year, Vokoun contributed 16.7 GVT to his team while Bobrovsky recorded a 8.7 GVT. That increase sure looks good until you realize Vokoun has to be paid. Do you not re-sign Leino and lose his 7.2 GVT, thus making the move sideways? How about trading Jeff Carter and his 13.4 GVT for Miikka Kiprusoff and his 7.1 GVT?
You don't have to believe in GVT, or even fully understand it to see that in a salary cap world, an improvement in goal means a reduction in another area. If the Flyers pay Vokoun $4 million to be their goalie, they almost certainly can't re-sign Leino. And if they really want to re-sign Leino, they have to trade someone else
Those are sideways moves at best, painful moves that wind up hurting the team at worst.
Ed Snider gave an exclusive interview to the Philadelphia Inquirer on Wednesday, and he expressed a pretty strong feeling about the goaltending in that talk.
"So either one of the goalies we have has to step up in training camp, or we have to make improvements to make sure it happens. But we are NEVER going to go through the goalie issues we’ve gone through in the last couple of years again."
With all due respect to Mr. Snider, what exactly is he talking about? What is he so upset about? A difference of six goals against should not make anyone this angry. Six goals against should not make anyone think that the Flyers goaltending was a problem this year, but won't be next year if they get Tomas Vokoun.
But if he means the team won't be re-signing career AHL goalies to multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, then I'm glad the Flyers won't be going through that again.
Further, when Mr. Snider says:
"We were beaten by a totally better team," he said. "The extremes in the goaltending, from their goalie (Tim Thomas) to ours, had an effect on our team. I don't look at it as why this guy only had one goal or this guy played that way. The bottom line is, when you have a goalie playing out of his mind (like Thomas), that confidence spreads to the whole team; the whole team becomes confident. And when your goalie is not playing well...."
Help me out here, Mr. Snider.
You admit that Tim Thomas was unconsciously good in the Boston series, but you also admit that the Bruins as a team were "totally better." Why do you think that replacing a goalie will make your offense score more than seven goals in four-plus games?
Call me crazy, but "confidence" doesn't beat a "totally better team," especially when that "totally better team" also has a goalie "playing out of his mind."
Further, how do you know who will play out of their minds next year? Look at Jaroslav Halak taking Montreal to the Eastern Conference Finals last year, "playing out of his mind." How did that help St. Louis this year? Sergei Bobrovsky put up better numbers than Halak this year, and that's the guy you're trying to replace.
If a goalie is "playing out of his mind," isn't that like saying "he isn't that good, but for four games, he was better than can be expected"? How do you find a guy you expect to play better than you expect?
The actual bottom line is that a big name goalie acquisition will result in a minor improvement from last year, and in order to make that acquisition, it will require weakening the team in front of the goalie, thus rendering the improvement moot.
In a short playoff series, nobody can predict which goalie will "play out of his mind."
In fact, the Flyers had a goalie play out of his mind in the playoffs this year. His name was Brian Boucher, and while he had 15 bad minutes in one game that was blown out of proportion by a reactive media, he stopped 93.6 percent of all even-strength shots Buffalo took.
During that series, the team failed to put the puck in the net and got shutout. Twice.
Did he not give his team confidence? If not, you have a problem with your team, not your goalie.
What about the reigning Vezina Trophy winner, Ryan Miller? He only stopped 91.8 percent of the shots the Flyers took against him in the 2011 playoffs. If he was the best goalie in the NHL last year, and the best goalie in the world last year (according to most people who watched the Olympics), how was he outplayed by a guy you are desperate to replace?
Maybe Boucher played out of his mind against Buffalo, thus giving his team confidence. Isn't that what you said you need? Isn't that what the Flyers got last year, after signing a goalie who "played out of his mind" for five months to a two-year contract?
Maybe small samples like the playoffs are a crap shoot. Maybe the difference between the best goalie in the world and a journeyman backup in a seven-game series comes down to the team in front of them. Maybe, just maybe, the Flyers need to play better in front of Bobrovsky, and not worry about spending $4 million for three extra wins.
If the team went out and signed Josh Harding, a UFA this summer, to backup Bobrovsky, based on Harding's career numbers, a Bob-Harding tandem would give up the same number of goals as a Kiprusoff-Bobrovsky tandem. And it would cost millions and millions of dollars less.
So, can we please stop with the "this team needs a big-name goaltender"?
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Good story, but didn’t Pardini already do this analysis in a Fly-By?
by Eric T. on May 12, 2011 12:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well said. I would rather the team have a “1 and 1A” setup, like here except with better goalies.
That should be enough. Bob gets some more games in without the pressure of being “the guy” just yet, and if you have someone who’s been a starter / is young enough to handle a half-season’s work load.
I love Boosh and can’t stand Leighton. I want an improvement on both of them. I do not want that improvement to cost infinity billion dollars. What if you have a situation like Boucher’s rookie year, when he eventually stole the starting job from Vanbiesbrouck? What if the Flyers get a multi-million-dollar man only to see Bob show up for training camp having improved his technique and earning the starting job?
Besides, we need forwards to score / prevent goals, too. Sk80rz plz kthx.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Obviously this needs to be rec’d.
Anybody have Ed Snider’s email? He needs to read this before he sets the team back during start of free agency.
I am also thankful that now I can just refer people to this post all summer when they keep saying the Flyers need to get a “big name” goalie.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on May 12, 2011 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed. I wanted to do something like this, but I couldn’t get it quite right, whereas Geoff rocked it.
Bahaha. Yes we did actually. Turned out that the pipe running along ours and our neighbor’s backyards was blocked by tree roots and back up with grease. The township Sewage Engineer came and flushed the pipe with 2,000 pounds of water and cleared it out. Needless to say, I am very thankful I’m not bailing sewage water out of my laundry anymore lol.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on May 12, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Boom!
Well played haha.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on May 12, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s the deal with Peter Budaj? Has he been accursed by bad teams in front of him? Or is he just lousy? His stats look Leighton-esque to me, but the Avalanche have not really been good in recent years. I’m just curious.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I don’t think he’s that good. Even with lousy teams in front of him, he’s right in between DiPietro and Raycroft for ES Sv%
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
So, can we please stop with the “this team needs a big-name goaltender”?
No, it’s completely unreasonable to expect people to be rational all the time. You yourself lose your rationality on certain topics. However, we can continue to try to drive this point home as much as humanly possible. Good article Geoff.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
And when you have someone point out the irrationality, you stop being irrational. At least I do anyway.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Not all people are that rational ;)
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
And that’s why I’m begging them to stop being irrational :)
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
You ever wonder if Holmgren sits up in his office and laughs as he prints out all the hard work you guys put in to your stats articles- knowing he doesn’t have to pay someone for this great work? I bet he does.
I hope he does.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on May 12, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm… is it fair to compare goalie’s stats to one another when they all play on totally different teams and different systems?
Gus Supporter.
Applying the shots from the Flyers does some of the normalization. If you want to normalize further, you can try to look at average distance for shots against, but even with that, you still won’t please the people. The thing people need to realize that roughly 6 goals over the course of a season translates to 2 points or 1 win. So even if you feel there is more to normalize for, it probably won’t translate to a significant amount of wins.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Dont get me wrong, this is some good work, but to take career sv% when each goalie has seen different teams, good and bad, I dont think stabilizes the situation in the end.
Gus Supporter.
Career save percentages are better because you get a truer picture of the goalie’s skill level. And when you break it down by situation, you minimize the difference. Tomas Vokoun and Miikka Kipprusoff have clearly established talent levels, so guessing their even-strength save percentage is going to be a lot more accurate than Bobrovsky’s, since he hasn’t faced many shots.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing, but what else is there to compare it to? The Flyers have 15 skaters returning next year, so the team will be very similar. As for defense, the team has 6 defensemen returning, so their defense will be very similar.
If you want to try and predict next year’s team, there’s no better place to look than this year’s team. And like I said, it’s crude. But with the same top-5 defensemen returning, the defense won’t be drastically different.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
So what you’re saying is – they should expect similar results next year. IF we accept that the lineup will be basically the same in front of the goalie, AND we further accept that the goalie doesn’t make that much difference, THEREFORE we should be swept by Boston in the second round in 2011-2012. That’s what the stats show.
Here’s my point – stats are great, but they have limits. Your post itself illustrates one, in correctly saying there is no way to predict next year’s Vezina goalie. Hell, maybe it’ll be Bob, right? And if the stats do infact show that the goalie won’t make much difference, then maybe the coaching needs to change. Or the skaters that we’re taking for granted need reshuffling. The same lineup would (following your reasoning) produce the same result, minus two regular season wins due to RTM. Is this really the desired result?
Of course not. What needs to happen then, is that the team needs to look a bit outside the box and beyond the stats. For example, for whatever reason, the team just LOOKED better in front of Leighton in 2009 than in front of Boosh. Call it confidence, call it shot-blocks-per-attempt, call it planets aligning on game days – the point is that they played better with Leighton in net, when measured by wins per start. Am I advocating Leighton? Hells no. Am I agreeing with Geoff’s premise that goaltending isn’t the issue? Sure am. Am I trying to prove a point that statistics lie? Yep, and I think I have.
Here’s my vote for mandatory off-season training for the team with Jim McCrosson, getting Bob’s girlfriend a goddamn visa already, and trying to shed some excess salary on the wing (SH) to sign two other wingers with more skill/points-per-season-in-total/less-red-mop/VL-and-someone-TBN.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post. I wouldn’t mind seeing Hartnell shipped out as well.
The stats tell us that goaltending isn’t a problem on this team and it would be a waste of money to upgrade significantly. Then are there any areas where stats tell us we definitely need to improve? Or are the stats saying that we should be good enough to win it all and just need some luck/health?
Maybe one reason a lot of people (myself included) are asking for a change in goal is because that position is the easiest to isolate. We see some soft goals. Who’s fault is that? The goalie!
A big problem all year was the PP. But we have skilled players. We have some veteran d-men who can quarterback it. So there’s no obvious thing to point to (player-wise) that could be changed to fix that problem.
I’m curious to see what everyone thinks we should change if we stand pat with the goalies. Or do we not change anything at all?
The stats tell us that goaltending isn’t a problem on this team and it would be a waste of money to upgrade significantly. Then are there any areas where stats tell us we definitely need to improve? Or are the stats saying that we should be good enough to win it all and just need some luck/health?
We gave us more shots than one of the best teams in the league should. We didn’t take as many shots as one of the best teams in the league should. I’d start there.
I honestly don’t know. I think we need to be more flexible with the system, since that’s what we have the personnel for. Watching that Bruins series, it was pretty clear how they were winning the neutral ice (rotating one or two forecheckers and clogging between the lines and disrupting the passing, while we were committing two or three into their zone and trying to dispossess). That’s not always the problem, though.
We never really defined who was doing the heavy lifting (Betts is a little too broken/doesn’t have the linemates to do it anymore), and I’m not a fan of that. HBL knew what there role was and didn’t do it as well as we may have liked. Overall? I think we had a lineup that was perfectly capable. We hit some injuries at the wrong time, and we didn’t adjust very well when we needed to. I don’t know what the answer is, I just know that theoretically, spending money on goaltending is inefficient.
Maybe one reason a lot of people (myself included) are asking for a change in goal is because that position is the easiest to isolate. We see some soft goals. Who’s fault is that? The goalie!
People also think they see soft goals when really, the defensive coverage broke down. People also think Mike Richards is a scorer, despite the Flyers disagreeing.
As far as what needs to change: The coaches need to use their players more effectively. The players need to play better. And yes, the team needs to get lucky.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You’ve proven that statistics lie? How?
Showing that an improvement in goal will only result in 16 fewer goals being scored doesn’t account for what is coming off the ice. It doesn’t account for luck, it doesn’t account for injuries.
You essentially just went off the handle and proved nothing. And ignored the fact that the playoffs are small samples, where anything can happen. But if you want to think that you’ve proven stats lie, well… good for you. But in fact, you just proved how simple your thought process was.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL -and I earlier told you I couldn’t find an argument.
But seriously, stats CAN lie. The numbers are one thing, but the conclusions drawn from them are, by definition, subjective unless you prove absolute causality. Which sports stats, generally, do not bother to do properly. I took a whole series of statistics courses in college, so I know (a little) of what I speak.
I think, Geoff, you took my comment the wrong way. In a roundabout sort of way, I was saying that the stats merely supported what I had ‘seen’ with my own highly-subjective and horribly-unsubstantiated eyes. Your knee-jerk reaction is a mite over the top, I think. Your genuflection at the altar of statistics needs some tempering. You yourself will admit, there is luck, teamwork, and certain other absolutely unquantifiable factors at work here.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
My knee-jerk reaction at having you state that I am saying the Flyers will lose in the second round of the 2011-2012 playoffs?
Maybe because that’s not even close to what I’m saying. Further, my “genuflection at the altar of statistics”… It’s better than having a knee-jerk reaction saying “ZOMG teh goaliez sux! Trade Carter!”
You yourself will admit, there is luck, teamwork, and certain other absolutely unquantifiable factors at work here.
Absolutely. So why come at me with “You are predicting the future, nothing changes, Flyers lose round two 4-0”?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly making decisions based on several years worth of statistics will usually be wiser than basing things off of one playoff series. But you don’t have to be so dismissive of the “team confidence in front of the goalie” argument. Disagree with it, fine. But it’s a little over the top to rule it out altogether because there aren’t statistics that support it. Especially when you’re not one of the players in the locker room.
I rule it out altogether because:
A) The team was damn confident in front of the same two goalies for half the season;
B) The team was damn confident in front of the same two goalies the week prior;
C) The team was damn confident in front of Michael Leighton last year.
Claiming that the team, which was confident in front of their goalies for over a year, suddenly lost confidence for 4 games, thus the goalies are to blame and must be moved, or else that confidence will never return, is ridiculous to me.
It has nothing to do with stats. It has to do with post-hoc justifications to fit a preconceived notion of what went wrong.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No one is saying the goalies were all to blame for the losses this year. And no one is saying that the Flyers can never regain confidence (if they lost it to begin with) in Boosh/Bob.
You’re saying that this cannot be a problem because they were confident in front of the same goalies earlier this year and in the Buffalo series. But things could have changed, even in that short amount of time.
Maybe they were confident earlier because they knew they were better than the teams they were playing against. So they felt confident that even if the goalie didn’t play well, they could overcome it because of superior talent. That could have been the case against Buffalo also.
But against Boston, a team that beat them 3 times this season, maybe they didn’t have that same confidence. And after seeing Thomas steal game 2 they thought “Wow, this team is tough already and now we have to deal with Thomas too. I wish our goalie was that good.”
Yes, there are a lot of "maybe"’s in that post, but that’s because with intangibles like confidence, luck, etc. it’s impossible to say for sure what’s going on. So you can’t say something like that absolutely wasn’t a factor just based on it not appearing to be a factor before.
So you’re shortening the sample to two games? The team lost confidence in their goalie for two games? And this is a pressing problem that demands shaking up the entire structure of the team?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Where did I say this was a pressing problem that demands shaking up the entire structure of the team? All I’ve been saying is that this is a possible explanation for their disappointing year and that getting a more proven goalie could help. Obviously you have to weigh the cost of that and if it significantly weakens the rest of the team then I don’t think we should get a new goalie either.
We’re arguing about different things at this point. You’re saying making a move for a high priced goalie is a bad idea because it’s likely not the problem and wouldn’t improve the team. I’m saying that you can’t rule out the possibility that the team was lacking confidence in the goalie this postseason (at least the Boston series).
And I’m saying: Why do you think/I should believe/anyone should agree that the team lost faith in a goalie who came on in relief not once, but twice in the Buffalo series to get them a win. Who won two elimination games in the Buffalo series, and who outplayed Ryan Miller?
But suddenly, I’m to believe that the team came out flat in Game 1 against Boston because they didn’t think the goalie who just won back-to-back “win or go home” games could win when they needed him to?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not asking you to agree with it, Geoff. There are plenty of other people who are on your side, and your argument is admittedly much more rigorous and thought out than mine.
But there are also other people on this site who believe the team could benefit from an upgrade in goal, especially come playoff time. Former NHL players/coaches have stated the importance of a steady, stable presence back there as well.
I don’t think many people would characterize the Flyers’ goaltending this postseason as stable. Whether that’s Boucher’s fault or someone else’s (like Laviolette) can be debated.
Okay, but you are once again shifting. Nobody is saying keep Boucher. Nobody is saying Boucher cannot be upgraded.
But saying the goaltending needs to be upgraded to a) a big name goalie; b) because the team lost confidence in their goalie; and c) the Flyers goaltending isn’t good enough is ignoring what happened this year.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Former NHL players/coaches have stated the importance of a steady, stable presence back there as well.
From ym experience, and from people’s perception of the team play in front of Leights last year, it has been thatteams play a better game in front of a weaker goalie because they feel they had to block more shots, possess the puck more, etc. Where as the opposite can be true for having a star; team’s can become completely offensively minded and play poor team hockey. So the confidence thing is just as likely to have a negative effect as a positive effect. The hope is that if it does have a negative effect, that you have a generational goal tender to bail you out.
Either way, I think the effect of confidence at the pro level is being over blown. I think it’s a very small effect in general.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Yeah, I don’t disagree with any of this. And the statistical analysis done here was very informative and the conclusions drawn from it definitely make a very strong case for not getting an expensive goalie.
I just had a problem with completely ruling out the possibility of the team lacking confidence in the goalie. Do the statistics say that the team probably didn’t or shouldn’t have? Yes, absolutely.
There’s a good chance that my theory is complete BS, there’s plenty of evidence that points in that direction. But you still can’t 100% prove that didn’t happen. That’s the only thing I have a problem with.
I have no problem saying that a soft goal is deflating for a team. But the problem is all goalies let up soft goals. Should better ones in theory let up less, but how much of the cap space is that worth. I also have no problem saying it effects general confidence on some level, but the effect shouldn’t have caused the complete breakdowns.
I just don’t think the extremes people seem to be arguing here are actually present.
And this article isn’t saying a stud goalie wouldn’t help (or that there was absolutely no psychological effects one way or the other in this series), it’s saying that it wouldn’t be worth the cap space and player movement that would be needed to get that stud goalie. I’m all for an upgrade in general, but that upgrade has to make sense under the cap. The Flyers have a wealth of centers, but who would they move? And in moving them, does it negate any positive effect the goalie would have had?
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Again, I totally understand what the article is trying to show and for the most part I agree with the conclusion.
Honestly, I really just had a problem with comments like this one in response to the “lost confidence” argument:
I rule it out altogether because:
A) The team was damn confident in front of the same two goalies for half the season;
B) The team was damn confident in front of the same two goalies the week prior;
C) The team was damn confident in front of Michael Leighton last year.
First of all, no one knows if A, B, and C were actually true. It definitely seems like they are, yes. But even if they are true that doesn’t mean the team had to have been confident in Boucher the next round, because other factors could be at work.
Look, maybe Geoff just meant to say “I don’t think that’s the case” instead of “I rule it out completely”.
Like penguinsfan has been saying, these statistics all support the idea that we shouldn’t spend a lot on a goalie, but they can’t 100% prove that.
I know that’s not the point of the article, but that’s why I have a problem with people saying the “confidence” argument is total BS and could not have been a factor. Just acknowledge that it is one possible explanation, however unlikely, and move on.
The confidence argument is a large part BS because it can be argued in several ways. For instance, Boosh lost confidence because he realized the D was unable to handle the Bruins. The is just as likely. Geoff speaks in absolutes when he feels people are being irrational, it happens, you get used to it.
And before I offend you, let me explain: It’s not BS as in that it isn’t a possibility, but it’s BS in the sense that you have a million different scenarios it can play a role (D effects goalies confidence makes him better, D effects goalies confidence makes him worse, Goalies effects D’s confidence makes them better, goalie effects D’s confidence makes them worse, etc.), but people only want to give credit to one…which is BS.
Like penguinsfan has been saying, these statistics all support the idea that we shouldn’t spend a lot on a goalie, but they can’t 100% prove that.
The funny thing about this is, that it does 100% prove that in a salary cap world it’s not a good use of money. That doesn’t mean that if the Flyers went that way, and spent a ton on a stud goalie, they wouldn’t win The Cup. Also, it doesn’t mean that if they don’t, they can’t win it either. The problem is, winning a Cup takes a lot of luck, and doesn’t prove anyone right one way or the other. But what can be shown is that spending $$$ on a stud goalie without significant young, cheap talent on ELC on your roster is a poor use of cap space. No one is saying you can’t win the cup that way though. And hence the disconnect. This is about investing the $ smartly in salary cap when analyzing the regular season, since we all agree that playoffs are near impossible to predict.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
The funny thing about this is, that it does 100% prove that in a salary cap world it’s not a good use of money.
I’m on board with everything you said except this. I’ll just leave it at that and move on.
I should have clarified that with the way the Flyers are currently built since that was the topic at hand…but in general, I also feel that it’s a poor investment depending on the jump in $…which is largely dependent on market place. So if the market drops the value of stud goalies, their cost may become worth it. But that’s starting a whole new topic anyway.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
And if you want to say that getting a big name goalie won’t help a confidence problem, that’s fine and you have a strong argument. But that’s different then saying there’s absolutely no way that the team could have lost confidence in Boucher/Bob.
A group of skaters can do almost anything, but we’re dealing in what they should be doing reasonably. Otherwise, we’re changing the group of skaters.
Yes – using stats to back up a claim I already support (it wasn’t the goalies) is better than a complete spastic reaction like “trade Carter”. However, I will note that you do NOT dispute my continued claim that statistics can be interpreted to draw completely subjective conclusions unless a fully causal relationship is demonstrated (with percentage likelihood and secondary variables accounted for fully).
I was saying, in short, that I agree that the improvement to be made is not with the goalies, unless some improvement there yields some intangible assistance to the team. For example, Leighton is (by all accounts) a less talented goalie than Boucher. However, for some UNEXPLAINED BY STATISTICS reason, the team won with Leighton in net last season, and lost with Boucher. Unless someone does a full analysis, to prove conclusively that the defense plays tighter in front of a worse goalie (accounting for shot generation, location, difficulty, … you get the idea) I continue to maintain that your anaysis – while I agree with it – is flawed from a statistical point of view. The jump of logic that I use to illustrate this is that if the team under your hypothesis would only win two more games in the regular season, which is a larger sample size and therefore more statistically reliable, then expecting any change overall in the success of the season as a whole INCLUDING the playoffs is untenable. Basically, your stats are not conclusive and include a subjective leap of faith – so does the assumption of the same playoff elimination next season. I do not believe it is likely that Boston sweeps th eFlyers again. I also do not believe that the same goaltending pair would produce exactly two less wins. There are too damn many variables to account for in the analysis.
THIS is why I despise baseball – people over-analyzing things, and trying to quanitfy stuff. I don’t give a rotten turd whether Halliday usually gets more strikeouts on Tuesdays against left-handed batters that have a last name ending in Y. It means NOTHING; it is coincidence. I applaud you for trying to make the statistics properly say what you want them to, but you have neither eliminated sufficient secondary variables nor proven a causal relationship of any sort. Your statistical analysis is, in the end, a tool to assist a subjective evaluation – just as almost all statistics are.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
From wiki definition of "statistics"
Descriptive statistics summarize the population data by describing what was observed in the sample numerically or graphically. Numerical descriptors include mean and standard deviation for continuous data types (like heights or weights), while frequency and percentage are more useful in terms of describing categorical data (like race).
Inferential statistics uses patterns in the sample data to draw inferences about the population represented, accounting for randomness. These inferences may take the form of: answering yes/no questions about the data (hypothesis testing), estimating numerical characteristics of the data (estimation), describing associations within the data (correlation) and modeling relationships within the data (for example, using regression analysis). Inference can extend to forecasting, prediction and estimation of unobserved values either in or associated with the population being studied; it can include extrapolation and interpolation of time series or spatial data, and can also include data mining.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not going to go off the deep end. But as someone who has worked in advanced statistics for several year in various fields, you are being very short sited. You are reading in a lot of your own bias to this and projecting it. Granted, Geoff defending himself leads to that, but none the less. What you fail to recognize is that we do look at the flaws and failings of the models. We make an attempt to see how those failings effect the models. If they end up being minimal effects, we feel comfortable making a conclusion. In no way do we ever claim that it is a black and white conclusion. There is always an error term in an analysis, and people who want to say that you are just using stats to support what you want to…like you say here:
I applaud you for trying to make the statistics properly say what you want them towill point to that. The key is, do we feel like we can safely draw a conclusion from what the data is telling us. Here we feel we can with the caveat of the Salary Cap. No one here will ever say Vokoun won’t give the Flyers a better chance to win every game they play in, because, in theory he will. But we can safely say that, through some analysis, that he would have an effect on the regular season that would justify the money spent on him, nor can we safely predict his playoff performance due to small sample variation to justify his salary. If the numbers same out different for the regular season analysis, I would hope Geoff would have concluded that he would be worth $X.
Further, I don’t think any of the stat head here have every gone so far as to do anything like this:
I don’t give a rotten turd whether Halliday usually gets more strikeouts on Tuesdays against left-handed batters that have a last name ending in Y. It means NOTHING; it is coincidence.It’s highly insulting to even include. I fully understand the limitations of statistics, and I fully understand how people can manipulate as it’s part of my job to catch that. But in this analysis, there isn’t any other known stats that would lead me to believe he is trying to make the stats say something he wants them to…and that’s where I take issue with your post. I agree, it’s totally possible in certain cases for people to use stats, even in extremely sophisticated ways that can make your eyes glaze over, to say what they want them to say. But it’s our job as a community to keep them honest. If Geoff was being unfair in his analysis I would step up and point it out.
Overall, I just find this completely demeaning and insulting to the community as a whole. I have no problem with your basic point, just the way you went about it. And I fully realize I am in no place to tell someone they are being insulting…but F it, I’m a hypocrite.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
I’m not going to go off the deep end. But as someone who has worked in advanced statistics for several year in various fields, you are being very short sited. You are reading in a lot of your own bias to this and projecting it. Granted, Geoff defending himself leads to that, but none the less. What you fail to recognize is that we do look at the flaws and failings of the models. We make an attempt to see how those failings effect the models. If they end up being minimal effects, we feel comfortable making a conclusion. In no way do we ever claim that it is a black and white conclusion. There is always an error term in an analysis, and people who want to say that you are just using stats to support what you want to…like you say here:
I applaud you for trying to make the statistics properly say what you want them towill point to that. The key is, do we feel like we can safely draw a conclusion from what the data is telling us. Here we feel we can with the caveat of the Salary Cap. No one here will ever say Vokoun won’t give the Flyers a better chance to win every game they play in, because, in theory he will. But we can safely say that, through some analysis, that he would have an effect on the regular season that would justify the money spent on him, nor can we safely predict his playoff performance due to small sample variation to justify his salary. If the numbers same out different for the regular season analysis, I would hope Geoff would have concluded that he would be worth $X.
Further, I don’t think any of the stat head here have every gone so far as to do anything like this:
I don’t give a rotten turd whether Halliday usually gets more strikeouts on Tuesdays against left-handed batters that have a last name ending in Y. It means NOTHING; it is coincidence.It’s highly insulting to even include. I fully understand the limitations of statistics, and I fully understand how people can manipulate as it’s part of my job to catch that. But in this analysis, there isn’t any other known stats that would lead me to believe he is trying to make the stats say something he wants them to…and that’s where I take issue with your post. I agree, it’s totally possible in certain cases for people to use stats, even in extremely sophisticated ways that can make your eyes glaze over, to say what they want them to say. But it’s our job as a community to keep them honest. If Geoff was being unfair in his analysis I would step up and point it out.
Overall, I just find this completely demeaning and insulting to the community as a whole. I have no problem with your basic point, just the way you went about it. And I fully realize I am in no place to tell someone they are being insulting…but F it, I’m a hypocrite.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Don – I was not intending to imply that any of the usual posters here, including Geoff, would have made that Halliday reference. I apologize for that; I see how could be demeaning. It’s an extreme example, an exaggeration, that is baseless and unrelated to the level of work that usually happens here.
Sorry.
/chastened
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
And yes – I absolutely have a bias. As one who uses statistical analyses often enough, I am pretty used to shooting holes in ones that do not sufficiently account for error or secondary variables.
In my defense, from Geoff’s post (way above):
And like I said, it’s crude.
I do agree with the analysis, I do see the point of the analysis, I do not think it is adequately conclusive, even though I agree with the drawn conclusion.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t give a rotten turd whether Halliday usually gets more strikeouts on Tuesdays against left-handed batters that have a last name ending in Y.
I love it. Yes, this is exactly what statistical analysis is. That’s what sabermetrics are. You got it! Damn, so clever and witty and wrong.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Behave yourself. The more you bite back, the more he pisses me off. It’s getting to the point where I want to hit people over the head with my old books from grad school.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
He undermines his entire post with a sentence he pulled out of his ass like that. He might as well have told me to put on some pants and move out of my mom’s basement.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes I agree. But you are just asking for more of the same with your type of responses. And the more ignorant it gets the more I’m getting really pissed off. I’d rather not break anything this afternoon.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Where were you yesterday??
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
You know I don’t come on the site when I’m home. But I wasn’t home either, I was running, then grilling and drinking.
Overall though this whole thing has pissed me off a great deal. For personal reasons mostly, and my general experience with these things in the work place and the world of academia. I’m sure you’ll here all about it tonight while we are out drinking.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Can I buy you guys a round?
Geoff did such a nice job w/ this post and it’s unfortunate that some will argue with him to the point exasperation. But that’s to be expected in this netherworld medium.
Fair. Statement recanted.
Now put some pants on! :)
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Geoff – please see my reply to Don above. Samsies.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And before you jump off the deep end again, I do appreciate what you did. I even think it’s a good job (given the limitations),and I also agree with your conclusions. I do not think that putting Ryan Miller in net automatically solves the chicken-with-head-cut-off play we saw from the Flyers in the playoffs this year. I don’t think that is the problem – I believe the problem is more subtle than that. Somehow there was a breakdown, and it was in the play of the skaters and not the goalies. Why did it happen? Dunno. What exactly was it? Not sure. How do they fix it? Haven’t a clue. But your argument at least puts the thinking on the ‘right’ track.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Well you are normalizing for shot suppression. You could take an average over the last 3 years for the Flyers. But the best predictor of next years team is probably this year given the players returning. So it’s more likely that the Flyers will see a similar shot total to what they gave up last year than what Florida gave up last year. Make sense? That is part of the normalization. You’d be giving Vokoun too much credit for goals prevents if you applied his shot totals from Florida, but then Bob’s shot totals from the Flyers if you are trying to predict the goal differential for Vokoun on the Flyers.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
How much of a team effect there is is a current topic of discussion in the stats community. JLikens had a long article about it at ObjectiveNHL recently, but the simplest summary is in the comments section.
He sees mixed evidence that leaves him unsure of whether there really is a team effect, but if there is, then this data would suggest that the Flyers goalies faced more dangerous shots this year than did the Panthers or Coyotes and much more dangerous than the Flames.
Hmmm, are they taking into accordance the system that all the teams play, AND the quality of defenders and even forwards infront of the team?
Gus Supporter.
No, they are taking into account the actual shots on net — their location and type (slap/snap/wrist/etc).
Which are effected in theory by all the things you brought up.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Well, that’s what’s the subject of debate — whether those players actually have a meaningful/predictable effect on the quality and location of the shots year over year.
But from the goaltender’s perspective, it doesn’t matter; the point is that Boosh and Bob faced tougher shots against than did the other goalies discussed here. It’s debatable whether we expect that to repeat next year, but it certainly doesn’t imply that we should expect Vokoun to be better because he comes to Philadelphia.
Where do you get this from:
Either way, ten goals equals less than two wins.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on May 12, 2011 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
6 goals over the course of a season translates to 2 points in the standings, or 1 win.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
haha, I was searching for that when you posted :(
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Eric did a great job explaining that here.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
The Devil's Advocate Postition
Take it easy on the newbie here…Let me play Devil’s Advocate. I understand the statistical argument, but I’m not sure a 4-7 game series is long enough to base your decisions on statistics. For one thing, the number of shots is greatly diminished in a playoff series vs. a whole season. For another, you are playing the same team over and over so the goales don’t benefit from the averaging effect of playing both good and bad teams over the course of a season (I am assuming that if you are in the playoffs you are a good team). So, why should we be inclined to use regular season goalie statistics to decide who would or wouldn’t be a better playoff goalie for the Flyers? Ultimately that is what we care about, right? I agree with any of those proposed goalie changes in the original post that the Flyers would make the playoffs. All that really matters then is how well they do in the playoffs. A goalie that will perform for this team better than what we have now.
Let’s do a thought experiment…would we have still beaten the Sabres if we swapped our goalies for theirs? Would it have been in fewer games? I would argue probably. And, I would also argue that given the way Thomas was playing for the Bruins compared to our tandem that we would not have been swept. I would argue we would have won game#2 for sure…
You gave Miller’s contract to Pronger, though, which was a good idea in the short term, but probably not the long term (as you are starting to see now)
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
Sabres took the scenic route, but they still MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!1
What if we also swapped Powe for Vanek and Myers for O’Donnell in the Sabres series.
Then maybe with the Boston series, we could swap Chara for OD, or Bergeron for Betts.
The thing is, they exist under the cap. You add a big money piece, you have to take one away. And also, you should check out the ESS% for the first round, Boosh has better numbers than Miller. Boosh was basically a beast in round 1.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
I’m not sure a 4-7 game series is long enough to base your decisions on statistics.
I agree entirely, which is why I am arguing not to base your decision on the Bruins series, which is what a lot of people – including Ed Snider – are doing.
So, why should we be inclined to use regular season goalie statistics to decide who would or wouldn’t be a better playoff goalie for the Flyers?
Wait, isn’t that what you just said above? That we shouldn’t use playoff numbers?
All that really matters then is how well they do in the playoffs. A goalie that will perform for this team better than what we have now.
How can you predict who will do well in the playoffs? Brian Boucher had a great series against Buffalo, better than last year’s Vezina winner. Would you have predicted that? No. Did you see how poorly Ilya Bryzgalov did in the playoffs this year? He stopped 88.6% of even-strength shots. That’s as bad as Bobrovsky did against Boston.
So how can you tell who will be good in a four game series? You can’t.
would we have still beaten the Sabres if we swapped our goalies for theirs? Would it have been in fewer games? I would argue probably.
Based on what? The Flyers couldn’t score in two games, so even if they got better goaltending, they still lose two games. You’re arguing they win Game 5? Ilya Bryzgalov got swept, so if you swap him in… you don’t win Game 5 either.
And, I would also argue that given the way Thomas was playing for the Bruins compared to our tandem that we would not have been swept.
Then tell me right now, how can you predict who will play great in Round Two next year? You don’t even know who will play in Round Two right now. After winning the 2009 Vezina Trophy, Tim Thomas lost his starting job to a rookie. After winning the 2010 Vezina Trophy, Ryan Miller lost in the first round.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Miller’s .926 S% just wasn’t enough last year. (ESS% probably a lot higher because the Bruins scored a lot of PPGs.)
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
Sabres took the scenic route, but they still MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!1
In the playoffs? Miller had a 0.944 ES Sv% last year, lost in 6 games. Which is kinda the point: You can have a goalie stand on his head, and still lose.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The team needed a .950% to play with enough confidence to beat the Bruins in 7 games though.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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Maybe they needed new helmets :)
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And Thomas Vanek to have functioning knee ligaments. Stupid Boychuk
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
Sabres took the scenic route, but they still MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!1
Confidence
I don’t think you can completely ignore the confidence factor, especially during a playoff series. But I agree it shouldn’t be cause for overreaction or overspending in the crease.
What confidence factor? Brian Boucher stopped 93.6% of even-strength shots against Buffalo, but his team still lost 3 of 5 games. Didn’t he give his team confidence? He won all 4 games despite only starting four of them.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
There was obviously a lack of confidence that led to 3 different starters in that series. And the Flyers had to score 3 or more goals to get all 4 of those wins.
Um, how about: There was obviously terrible defensive zone coverage that led to 3 different starters in that series?
How about: There was obviously an over-reaction from the coaches that led to 3 different starters in that series?
Or maybe it wasn’t obvious at all.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure I follow you there – because the defensive zone coverage in the last game was bad, I’m going to start a different goalie in the next game?
I agree with the coaching over-reaction to some degree, but I’d say they’re over-reacting based on their level of confidence in the goalie.
I’m saying starting three different goalies isn’t “obviously” because they were bad. The team couldn’t score in Game 1 or Game 4. Leighton should never have started period.
Even if I accept that the coaches had a low level of confidence in their goalies, that doesn’t mean it was justified. And it doesn’t mean the goalies are incapable of returning next year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Versteeg Surgery As Well?
Just how many Flyers are injured? I know it’s Hockey, and it’s a long season, and Versteeg played as long as the Flyers last year, but what is this?!?
Certainly the Flyers can do something to avoid this in the future. Perhaps it’s a conditioning issue like the Eagles.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I’ve never seen a team with less that four after-season surgeries and i think the Flyers have had 5 so that’s fairly average, actually.
Though sometimes the 4 surgeries are fixing less serious issues…
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
Sabres took the scenic route, but they still MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!1
But
These injuries seriously cost us in the Playoffs. And were we not built for depth? What happened to that?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
My issue with this, is that it is all math and none of the “human factor”
There’s a psychological boost the skaters get from knowing there’s a far more skilled goalie in net. Maybe having Vokoun in net instead of Boucher means that on a loose puck in the slot, Matt Carle feels more comfortable pinching in and trying to fire a shot, because he knows if he gives up the 2-1 the other way, the goalie can bail out the rush.
Now, pinch like that 10 times, the following happens
3 times: Carle wins that race to the lose puck and creates a scoring chance
4 times: Carle and opposing player cancel-neither team lands a scoring chance
3 times: Carle gets caught springing a 2 on 1 the other way
If the Flyers get 3 scoring chances for 3 odd-man rushes the other way, the Flyers have the skill to score more goals AND have a goalie who will prevent them meaning that the goalie IS an important factor…
Next question: is there a way to measure that situation?
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by Down Goes Spezza on May 12, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions
I pose another question. When I have a bad goalie behind me, we work really hard on shot suppression. If the Flyers had that little confidence in their goal tending, wouldn’t you expect to see a dramatic dip in shots on goal.
Also it’s not all math, it’s player performance.
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A) What Don said.
B) Where was that human factor when the team was in 1st place in the NHL in January? With the same goaltenders. This is revisionist history.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
B is the thing that’s driving me nuts.
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Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Yeah, same here.
This team, with these goalies, was atop the NHL in January. This team, with these goalies, outplayed the Sabres three straight games. Brian Boucher outplayed Ryan Miller, reigning Vezina Trophy winner and Olympic Hero, in a seven-game series. But the team shits the bed for four games and everybody blames the goalies.
Oh, and they want to acquire a goalie who just shit the bed in a four-game sweep to replace a goalie who just shit hte bed in a four-game sweep.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Donovan McNabb called – he wants you to be his agent.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Because the Eagles did so well with a ‘real’ QB?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Precisely. You can prove that, statistically, the Eagles were no worse with Donovan than with any other quarterback since 1960. No more wins, no more championships. Right?
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
What are you getting at?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhhh McNabb had more division championships than the rest of the QBs combined.
Eagles next starting QB: "East-West Shrine Game Legend" Mike Kafka
Flyers: Sigh
Phillies:Gah enough with the injuries!.
Exactly – so why then did the Eagles let him go? Was he not the best quarterback option statistically?
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
And still finished second in the Eastern Conference? Yeah, I do.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Not knocking their regular season performance, merely saying that when you are that good of a team and you can’t get 1 shut out during the season, something between the pipes needs to be looked at.
I fail to see why.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Because there is at least one goal each game that is the goalie’s fault! DUH!
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Remember that two teams won a Stanley Cup while going a whole season and post-season without a shutout?
Point: Shutouts are an irrelevant statistic and are dependent on more than the play of a goaltender.
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Talk all you want about the goal tending in the regular season. The goal tending in the playoffs was horrible. It was made to look worse than it was by the defensive breakdowns.
But there is no denying as whole for the 11 playoff games that it was an issue and cost the Flyers games.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
There is plenty of denying it.
Brian Boucher stopped 93.6% of all even-strength shots against Buffalo. The goaltending as a whole was not an issue for 11 playoff games.
And if you want to go get a big-name goalie, look at Ilya Bryzgalov’s playoff numbers this year. He cost his team a series.
How can you predict what any goalie will do over a 4-game sample? This comment just infuriated me.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not arguing that any of the 3 above goaltenders would be/or have been a better choice. No way on Izzy and if I had to pick 1 it would be Vokoun.
His overall Save% was .904 which is substandard. His GAA was over 3. That is not going to cut it when the team’s expectation is to go far in the playoffs.
Was goal tending the entire problem? Absolutely not
Was it a problem? Yes
The 1st step is admitting there is a problem.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
You are using a four game sample to say there is a problem, ignoring the previous 7 games where it was decidedly NOT a problem.
And then you are saying that a goalie who stopped a lower percentage of shots this year should replace a goalie who stopped a higher percentage, because a guy who stops 92.3% of shots will win a series that a guy who stops 91.3% can’t.
In a four game series, where the Bruins take 129 shots, you’ve successfully saved… 1.29 goals. Damn! If only the Flyers had a 92.3% goalie instead of a 91.3% goalie, they’d totally have won!
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I’m using an 11 game sampling to say it was no good enough. Clearly when the record is 4-7 in those games it was not good enough.
I felt they should have rode Bob throughout the playoffs win, lose or draw. They didn’t. They put themselves in a position where Boucher had to be a stellar goaltender to win. He hasn’t been that goalie in the playoffs since the last millennium. He is a .500 goalie with below average numbers in the playoffs (I can’t break down further than what hockeyreference.com gives me do to filters at work).
Maybe I should not have said I’d pick Vokoun. Let me clarify, with a gun to my head and only those 3 and Boucher to choose from I’d pick Vokoun and still probably ask the person to pull the trigger anyways.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
Brian Boucher 2011 First Round: 93.6% save percentage.
Tell me, how is that not good enough?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He had a terrible 15 minutes in Game 5, and therefore had a terrible series that anyone with
eyes could see.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Put another way:
Boucher’s 11-game save percentage was .904.
Niemi’s is .901. Rinne’s is .907. Their teams won.
Bryzgalov’s was .879 this year and .906 last year. Kiprusoff’s last playoff run was .884. Vokoun’s was .902.
Yes, if you know which goalie is going to be .920 in the playoffs, you would pay for him. But you don’t.
Trade Niemi! Trade Rinne! Stay away from Bryzgalov!
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Michael Leighton put up .920 in 14 playoff games last season. The Flyers paid him $3.1 million.
See? This organization does know what it’s doing after all!
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Sarcasm font on a line below normal font is not aesthetically pleasing.
Besides, I am pretty sure most picked up on the obvious sarcasm. I hope………
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I know to do that, but I do not like the indentation it gives. It looks off to me.
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A bit better yes, but the period at the front still looks out of place. ;-)
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Precisely my thought … but then I saw it was Justin, and the minuet he mentions Leighton I know it has to be either searingly nasty or completely sarcastic.
But realistically, his point is kinda true – people arguing that we should get Bryz or Vokoun, just on the basis of their saves … we have gone round and round about teams winning the Cup with sub-standard goalies (Osgood for one). Hockey is a TEAM sport, kids. One superstar a Cup run does not make. I’d rather have a team full of overachievers pulling for each other and fighting every game, than a couple obnoxious superstars surrounded by AHL-level players to squeeze under the cap.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Now who’s using small sample sizes?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
hahahaha. It’s disproving a falsehood you are clinging to.
But I’m glad you now have a problem with small samples. Maybe we can go back to the whole point of the post and admit that Tomas Vokoun does not make this team better.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I say he did?
Pekka Rinne maybe but not Vokoun.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
Then what are you arguing against??
(P.S. Pekka Rinne would save 1.23 goals more than Vokoun. He would surely make them better! By adding… 0.41 points to the Flyers season-ending total)
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Was it really “decidedly NOT a problem”? The Flyers lost game 5 where Boosh gave up 2 bad goals. They almost lost game 6 because of the same thing. Granted that was Leighton who shouldn’t have seen the ice. Can you tell me you came out of games 5 and 6 saying “goaltending is not an issue whatsoever on this team”?
Can you tell me how you came out of Game 1, Game 2, Game 3, Game 4, Game 7?
When Boucher stops 93.5% of ALL shots, where exactly is goaltending a problem?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Only once in six games did Boucher give up more than two goals. The team got shut out more often than Boucher gave up 3 goals, and you’re saying it was a goalie problem?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying goaltending was the reason we’re out of the playoffs. But to go through a series where the goalie got pulled 3 times (none of them due to injury) and say goaltending was “decidedly not a problem” seems a little strange.
Seeing as how Leighton should never have started Game 6, I think it’s unfair to blame Boucher/Bob for Lavy’s bad decision.
And just because they got pulled doesn’t mean goaltending wasn’t a problem for the Sabres either. Did Boucher step in and play great in relief? Yes, yes he did.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
But part of the reason Leighton got put in is because the other options in goal were a rookie who said he was feeling mentally “not normal” and a journeyman/career backup who just finished letting in 2 really bad goals that put the team on it’s heels for 10 minutes.
Look, the goalies were totally mishandled. That’s for sure and that’s the coach’s fault. But if we had someone who was a little more reliable who Lavy wasn’t afraid to ride maybe things would’ve played out differently. All the goalie uncertainty had to take some sort of toll on the rest of the team mentally.
Honestly, I don’t know what the best choice is. As you’ve shown, there’s not a huge difference statistically between the elite goalies and Brian Boucher. But there might be a mental side of it too, where the team can play better knowing that they’ve got someone they can depend on instead of going into every game thinking they might be down by 2 in the first few minutes.
Maybe you can forward this to the team so they’ll have a little more confidence in Boosh. :)
But there might be a mental side of it too, where the team can play better knowing that they’ve got someone they can depend on instead of going into every game thinking they might be down by 2 in the first few minutes.
This team was plenty confident in front of Boucher and Bobrovsky when they were the best team in the NHL. They were plenty confident in front of Boucher and Leighton when they went to the Stanley Cup Finals.
Rather than look for reasons as to why the goaltending needs to change, why don’t we just admit that goaltending is unpredictable and everybody is worried about a four game series where the team played like shit, leading them to make irrational decisions to save 6 goals.
Why is it so hard? Why is the fall back “oh, they were mentally weak”. Bobrovsky got pulled in Game 82 with the Atlantic Division on the line, but was fine to start Game One and play well. And mentally fine to start Game Two. But getting pulled for the second time in three games, and admitting to being upset about that, suddenly means he went from mentally strong to mentally weak in a span of 12 minutes?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Or just tell the coach not hook the goalie so quickly it solves but issues.
That is the issue if we had bigger name the coach wouldn’t have been so quick to hook him and the confidence would never been an issue. Rather than have Lavy learn from his mistakes it is easier just to appease fuck the team up in the process.
Lavy has a lot to correct next year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ryan Miller had a 2.93 GAA and got pulled once. Wasn’t goaltending a problem for them too?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t read!
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He was told there'd be no reading.
Bob.
by The Dark on May 13, 2011 11:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Clutchity clutch Hall of Famer!
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If he’s in the Hall of Fame and Phil Housley isn’t I’ll probably have to burn something down.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
Sabres took the scenic route, but they still MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!1
Dude just knows how to win
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Try to choose something small, then.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on May 12, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think we’re going to able to acquire Vokoun or Bryz b/c of our cap situation (and b/c I think people are deluding themselves if they believe Vokoun is taking a Penny under 4.5m [and that’s being generous]).
Thus, I would be in favor of an Emery return assuming he would clear the medical examination.
We need to stay the fuck away from Kipper.
I would welcome a one-year deal with Ray Emery. With open-arms.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming his healthy, he’s the only guy we could bring in here (realistically) that has top-tier talent, but won’t drag us into cap hell. An Emery/Bob split is attractive to me.
Next Year's BSH slogan?
Ebony and Ivorying Our Way to the Cup.
by iJewJitsu on May 12, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Me too. I got laughed at earlier in the year when I wore my orange Emery jersey in honor of his re-entry into the NHL.
CUP FINALS HERE WE COME!!! Mask awesomeness is even better than Snider-style confidence! Or truculence, for that matter!
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here. This might actually be the Flyers’ best move here. Him over Boucher is an upgrade and Emery will almost certainly be cheap.
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So how do we start an Everybody Loves Rayemery movement to nudge Flyers brass into the correct decision?
If memory serves me correctly, Emery signed a 2 year deal with the Ducks so that would have to be a trade.
NHL.com says it was just for this year. Unless he signed an extension in the last three months.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No clue, but that sounds right
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, there would be major mixed emotions if Carbombs mil gets used for Emery. I love Emery, I love Carbomb.
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by Cillo stache on May 12, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I got your free-agent goalie right here!
Anton Khudobin, muthafucqaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Look at his stellar numbers from last season!
2 GP, 0.87 GAA, .979 SV%
And THIS season!
4 GP, 1.59 GAA, .942 SV%
That's MORE than enough for me! Plenty of experience too! Plus he beat the Flyers last year! We always get the guys who give us trouble!
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Vokoun’s a chump compared to this kid.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on May 12, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s his mask style, though?
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Without getting into #‘s, I think there is 36 years of proof (yes we have had good goaltending scattered in here and there) in Philly that trying to win without a steady goalie is a problem. If it’s all about #‘s, I do believe Roman Cechmanek had incredible #’s for the most part. So Geoff doesn’t get mad, I agree it makes absolute sense that we don’t blow our load on a goalie, but we do need something to solidify the position…if thats the word. Vokoun at 1 or 2 years is perfect to me not considering money. I see a 60/40 starting rate between him and Bob. Would Vokoun really cost more than 3.5 mil/year? I don’t think you resign Leino at that price.
And I love Boosh. When he retires, I want him to be our goalie coach.
It’s all about money though. In a Cap world, you have to account for money. Nobody is saying Vokoun is not better than Boucher.
But it’s Vokoun v. Boucher + Leino. It’s Bernier v. Boucher + Carter.
And yes, Roman Cechmanek was a fantastic goalie. I don’t see how you can argue against that. Was he a good teammate? Not even close.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Cechmanek was a great statistical goaltender who gave up weak goals at inopportune times. Sometimes it’s not about how many saves a goalie makes, and more about making the saves he needs to.
“weak goals at inopportune times”. Hm, I wonder if every goalie in the history of hockey had this happen to them.
Sometimes, it’s not about what you remember, it’s about what actually happened.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but how many times did it happen to Boucher in the 3 games he played against Boston? Talk all you want about the regular season and ES sv% or whatever you want, but the best goalies keep their teams in games even if they shouldn’t be and they also play their best when it really matters.
If we’re basing everything just off stats, are you going to tell me you’d rather have Cechmanek in his prime instead of Parent?
Stop being ridiculous. You can’t compare the two without significant normalization tot he data because they played in 2 different eras of the game. And I could give you all the numbers in the world on Cechmanek, but you’re going to believe in what you want to remember, and that’s okay…we’ll move on.
Here’s the point, the best goalies have the best chance to be the best goalies. I know amazing right. But that doesn’t guarantee anything for small sample sizes like the playoffs. The question then becomes do you want to take a significant piece out of the line up to fit in a top tier goaltender when that talent will save you roughly 2 extra wins worth of goals in a season, with no guarantee of playoff success. If there wasn’t a cap sure, but there is, so would you still want that given you have to remove a key piece of the team to fit the salary.
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And you can’t compare what other goalie would do based on stats from this year, and stats from playing somewhere else.
And here’s my point, rattle off all the numbers you want. In a game like hockey their are way too many factors to get any sort of data that can accurately tell you exactly what’s going on.
Thank you for saving me the effort of ever making a point with stats with you. Stats can give you a good idea, especially the ones that are shown to be sustainable. Also there have been studies done that show potential issues from team effects, and Geoff has normalize for shots already. But once again, you won’t care, so I won’t link you to that information.
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And you can’t compare what other goalie would do based on stats from this year, and stats from playing somewhere else.
Why not?
And here’s my point, rattle off all the numbers you want. In a game like hockey their are way too many factors to get any sort of data that can accurately tell you exactly what’s going on.
Then how come people who use numbers can predict the Capitals scoring plummeting? Or the Devils going on a tear to end the season? Or the Stars falling apart? This argument is incredibly closed minded.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you even watch the games?
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
watching would require him being human and using his eyes. two things Geoff doesn’t do.
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by Cillo stache on May 12, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would I do that? I'd rather read a spreadsheet
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And here’s my point, rattle off all the numbers you want. In a game like hockey their are way too many factors to get any sort of data that can accurately tell you exactly what’s going on.
If this is how you feel about stats, you will not find this a very enjoyable blog, though you could certainly learn a lot from it.
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I know you aren’t saying that Boosh is better than Vokoun. Obviously it’s about money.
Again, not saying to blow our brains out on a goalie, but even I, who is a very loyal fan, often to the detriment of myself and people around me, have tired of being scared of every shot that goes on net, whether it’s justified or not. Maybe I’m punch drunk. Bob will be our man, maybe next year, maybe not.
It has just a good of a chance to positively effect the play of the team in front of him (they control the puck better, suppress more shots etc. because they know they have to) as it does to negatively effect the play.
Also, it is just as liking for a goalie to have his confidence broken by poor play in front of him as it is for a team’s confidence to be broken with a goalies poor play behind them. So, chicken egg it all you want in either direction, you are over estimating it’s effect on the game.
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No, it doesn’t have a positive affect, because instead of just doing what you’re supposed to do you end up trying to do to much, getting out of position, and that’s when things really fall apart. And a goalies confidence doesn’t get broken because of poor play in front of him or else Vokoun wouldn’t have even been brought up as a possible option.
And if you have a stud goalie who will make up for every mistake you have, it creates a sense of laziness. It results in the team thinking “I can take this unnecessary risk because he’ll be back there to make up for it.” And yet, he won’t, because he has then lost faith in his team.
Oh shit, you mean that coin has a tails on the other side of it?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I guess Broduer and Roy were only studs because their teams weren’t lazy.
Actually that does happen. It happens to teams I’ve played for as well. Haha, but again, I don’t think either of these things happen to this kind of extreme at the pro level, which is my entire point. But if you are willing to say one exists, I don’t know how you say the other can’t possibly exist (just because it doesn’t support your theory).
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I remember many years ago hearing an announcer say that one of the things that made Curtis Joseph so important was that the Leafs could take more chances at the offensive end knowing he was back there to bail him out.
Replace “take more chances” with “play more recklessly” and you get something that means the same thing but sounds a lot like what you and Geoff are suggesting.
It does.
Here is the interesting thing, and take it for what it is, an example from travel hockey at a competitive level that is no where near comparable to the NHL:
We played our best team games, and best complete games when we had our back up in net. We had our most fun games, but poorly played team games with our starter in net. It’s a lot more fun to go end to end, or hang out in the neutral zone, then it is to play smart hockey. Games where we played our starter, who was amazing, we played more of a game that would be similar to what you see in open ice (not to that extreme of course). When we had our back up in, we blocked a lot of shots, made the smart plays, played more of a possession game….we just played smarter hockey.
So all this psychology stuff people are talking about is interesting to me because what they are theorizing is the exact opposite of my personal experience.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Pat Quinn hockey was “the five of you go play offense, goalie bail them out”.
The Leafs got shelled every night and Cujo / Belfour bailed them out by being generational goaltenders.
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Pat Quinn was coach of the Flyers during the 1979-80 season, when they went on their famous 35-game unbeaten streak.
The goalies for that team? Rookie Pete Peeters and veteran Phil Myre. Peeters would win the Vezina in 1982-83.
Quinn’s approach with the Leafs of the late 90s-early 2000s was the exact approach he used when he coached the Flyers in the early 80s.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Not to be snide, but how many Cups did the Leafs win with that approach? We have to temper our argument with the understanding that we’re complaining about a second-round exit. Not a losing season, not even squeaking in to the playoffs. Improvement beyond a second-round exit, I think you’re splitting hairs.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
And in case you don’t get the whole point of this I’ll spell it out to you:
Geoff thinks it’s just as dumb to suggest that the Flyers get lost in coverage because they don’t believe in their goaltender as you do to suggest that a team can become lazy because it relies to heavily on their goaltender.
You are basically arguing that a goalie can riddle the confidence of it’s players, but at the same time his confidence is immune to the play of the team in front of him. That’s a hard sell just from a theoretical stand point.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Well put.
Hey Geoff – quantify that ‘theoretical standpoint’ will ya? :)
/teasing now
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it doesn’t have a positive affect
Actually it can and does, as I’ve been part of teams where this has happened. I won’t argue it happens at the NHL level, but I don’t think a teams confidence in a goalie gets shattered so much that they are found constantly out of position at the NHL level either. So if one can exist, the opposite can exist. Just because it doesn’t support what you want it to doesn’t mean the possibility exists.
And a goalies confidence doesn’t get broken because of poor play in front of him or else Vokoun wouldn’t have even been brought up as a possible option.But in your logic, maybe that’s one of the reason Vokoun is better than Boosh. because his confidence doesn’t get shattered. Detroit never lost confidence when winning a cup with Osgood in net despite him not being a great goaltender. That doesn’t prove it can’t happen.
Though once again, I don’t think it happens in either direction enough to effect play the way you would suggest. But if you are going to suggest it does, I don’t see how you can rule out the other possibility.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
No argument here…but loved this from Panotch’s column about roster moves.
Re: SOD
bq. and was a media favorite because of his insight after games.
He’ll never get it.
I guess if I have to be named after a drunk driver, being named Pelle isn't so bad.
by Pronger? I don't even know her! on May 12, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions
Damn it, block quote fail.
I guess if I have to be named after a drunk driver, being named Pelle isn't so bad.
by Pronger? I don't even know her! on May 12, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess that since Snider has made generally clear he wants to go after a goalie, I’d be interested in how that would happen in terms of trades/salary cap space. The Flyers are not exactly flush with extra cash.
Sarauj, Latvija!
The Flyers are not exactly flush with extra cash.
Cap Space? No
Cash? Plenty, More than we will ever know
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
/pays cable bill
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by Travis Hughes on May 12, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Geoff love the article and I have been saying this all along in defending trading Carter. Even if your numbers are off the notion of trading 35+ goals away for a goaltender that according to this calculation says you 16. Even if he saves you twice that much you are still losing out. That is not factoring in the other factors that Carter provides in assists, faceoffs, PK and general two way play, nor those is factor in a 10 year age difference between the two players.
But for completeness sake. Since PP goals count just the same if looking at overall save percentage would this make a difference in the logic of your argument? Just curious.
Geoff did use overall save percentage, in a sense.
He calculated the number of even strength, power play, and shorthanded shots the Flyers allowed, and assumed Vokoun would save his career ESS% of the even strength shots, his career PPS% of the power play shots, and his career ShS% of the shorthanded shots.
The people who complain about wanting a goalie are the same people who complain about the lack of draft picks and cap space, which there will be none of if we get a goalie. Can’t be all sunshine and rainbows, pookiebear, so suck it up and deal with our perfectly capible and talented goaltenders, got it?
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
Giving up isn't an option
The people who complain about wanting a goalie are the same people who complain about the lack of draft picks and cap space, which there will be none of if we get a goalie.
That’s most certainly incorrect. I’m not clamoring for a goalie, but I do complain about cap space on a regular basis ;). Geoff is in the same boat.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
;P shutup, you two are just grumpy old men. Who here doesn’t complain about cap space?
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
Giving up isn't an option
by Cillo stache on May 12, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fancy colors
If you want to look at wins based on goals for and goals against observe this handy dandy chart:
The scale is confusing, but GOALS FOR is horizontal across the top and GOALS AGAINST are vertical on the left side. Travis’ point about 10 GA being worth about 2 wins is pretty close.
If you’d like to know how we tease out this equivalence see:
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/3/4/1356179/the-leafs-team-save-percentage-vs
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Oh, and then the numbers in the chart (duh) are how many points you’d expect to finish with after 82 games.
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Geoff’s point***
… but I’ll gladly accept the credit.
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by Travis Hughes on May 12, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Aw hell, I misread the byline obviously.
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NABOKOV 2 RUSSIANS 1 CUP
Bring in Nabokov simple as that offer him 1.5 and call it a day. They wanted this guy before he wants back and evidence by the San Jose DET series there are deeper problems in San Jose when it comes to this time of year, Nabokov was just the scapegoat.
A suggestion, if I may; you should look at more than one season for a goaltender.
If you round up .919s in 05-06 and 07-08 Vokoun is the only goalie over .920 every year post lockout.
We could compare Vokoun’s regular season and Bobrovsky’s regular season this year, but maybe it’s more important to look at three or four seasons (which you can’t do with Bob, obviously).
Spectacular playoff goaltending flameouts fit the Flyers’ narrative obviously and could happen to anyone but despite this one season it’s likely Vokoun’s true talent is much much greater than any netminder on Philly.
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You’d still be, potentially, overrating Bobrovsky based on one season.
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He did use career numbers, and he definitely is potentially over estimating Bob. I’d be willing to throw in another 2 points for the net effect, which still would tell me, don’t spend your wad on a goalie. But it is a good point.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Absolutely. There’s just nothing else to go off of on him.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you seen his cool new mask??? Not overrated one iota …
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 12, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I had a guy laugh at me in the press box earlier this year for suggesting Vokoun was the best goalie in the league post-lockout. Said he used to work for the Panthers, too, and watched him every game.
Hilarious.
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by Travis Hughes on May 12, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Here are the post-lockout numbers:
Vokoun .932 in 347 games
Hiller .931 in 177 games
Thomas .931 in 258 games
Luongo .929 in 406 games
Rinne .928 in 177 games
Lundqvist .927 in 406 games
Given that he is both at the top in average and quite consistent…
But he’s what, one goal per year better? haha
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It isn’t cut and dry, and he had a fairly bad year this year, but… it looks more and more like the correct answer to that is “Tim Thomas”.
Which is funny, because a year ago, it was Vokoun. I mean, I thought goalies were locks?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Bad year? He put up a .922 good for 8th in SV% among goalies with more than 50GP.
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For him, that’s bad.
Plus, he only had a 0.919 ESS%, and benefited mostly from ridiculous luck while a man-down.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I tend to agree with the position presented in the article. However, an alternate and impossible to quantify alternate view that has been presented to me is that a team needs a goalie that can steal one game per playoff series. In a 7 game series, getting that steal is HUGE. It happened to the Flyers twice versus BUF and in game 2 versus BOS. Boosh and Bob may be models of consistency stopping a high percentage of even strength shots, but they very rarely “steal” games for the team. Maybe its because the team plays in such a way that they don’t have to, but as I see it, that intangible game stealing ability is missing in the current system.
Stealing a game is largely “luck” in that you’re hoping for a great outcome on a tiny sample.
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Exactly.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The Flyers lost two games 1-0.
In the first of those, the goalie had absolutely no chance at the only goal that was scored. We haven’t gotten to the breakdown yet in the second one, but it seems fair to say that the goalies played well enough to steal games.
You can’t steal one if your skaters don’t score any goals.
I’m going to skip most of the comments and sidetrack the discussion:
Do we know if Quality Starts and Really Bad Starts are repeatable skills yet? I think Vollman only tracked 10-11, but that shouldn’t be hard to go back and establish a sample size for, right?
This is a great question.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Soft goals
I am also side-stepping the majority of the text because I am out of work here in 15 minutes BUT…..
Soft goals absolutely kill the momentum, psyche, and level of play of any hockey team with question marks. From high school to the pros, if you’re a fragile team as the Flyers seemed to be at points, and your goalie gives up a softy in the beginning of the game, or in the midst of a major comeback, it is DEFLATING. I coach and play, and I see this all the time.
Just saying no matter what the stats say, there’s intangibles with having a steady presence in net. And when a goalie lets in a wrister from 40 ft out, unscreened, to Brad Marchand, its deflating.
Find me a goalie that doesn’t give up a weak goal.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Vesa Toskala gives up at least two.
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He’s a goalie? I thought he was a joke.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Ron Hextall. You would never see a game where he gave up A weak goal. It was either 0 or 2+.
Bob.
by The Dark on May 13, 2011 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Geoff Has Officially Hit The Big Time!
I just got home from work and was listening to HNIC (Hockey Night in Canada) Radio with Jeff Marek. Which is by far the best NHL radio program on air. And if you have Sirius you have to listen to the program between 3-6 daily or you are doing yourself a disservice as a hockey fan. Well today they are talking goaltending, FA goaltenders and of course a little Flyers because whenever there is goaltender talk the Flyers come into the conversation. A guy called up and referenced BSH and this article and how, as a lot of us believe, the Flyers problems are so far from goaltending its not even funny. So Jeff Marek goes on line and says "ooh this is good, I’m going to have to read this article by a guy Named Geoff Detweiler of BSH. Good work Geoff! Maybe he will call you guys and you should get him on a BSH Radio.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Wow, that. is. awesome.
Thank you, sir.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It was me
Hey Geoff,
I am the guy that called in to HNIC Radio and meant you no disrespect at all by the comment “stats geek”. Marek calls himself that all the time and he wears it as badge of honor. That is why I referred to you and the article that way.
I am dumfounded by what you and Travis and all the others on this blog do and I am forever in your debt.
I call into the show all the time and go on as Andy from New Jersey. I plan on calling back in early next week and will discuss the article as Jeff asked me to call back. Not sure what day it will be but when I do I will post here to let you know how it went. I will also give big props to you all. I am a longtime Flyers fan and was alive when they won it last. My name here…RVRebel Is a nod to my hometown in VA who once had a Flyers farm team in the old EHL and SHL. RV stands for Roanoke Valley and the team nickname was the Rebels.
Again I meant no disrespect and am floored at how in-depth you guys are. Will post when I get on the air with Jeff, most likely it will Be Tuesday. Keep up the awesome work!!! Thanks.
Thats my rant, bet it don't make a dent
haha, this may be even more awesome.
Seriously, don’t worry about upsetting me. Being called a stats geek by a guy who takes the time to call in to satellite radio and advertise my writing is, well, an honor. It’s all about context, and I think the context showed you meant it as a compliment. So, no disrespect taken at all.
Thanks for all the kind words. Because I don’t handle compliments well, I really think Eric needs to get more of the credit. He’s the stats geek, I’m more like a fan of numbers. Either way, we both appreciate it.
I wish I knew more about Virginia, but sadly I don’t. I don’t even remember the EHL and SHL. But come around more often!
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Planning on calling in today
Jeff Marek asked me to call back this week to discuss your article so just wanted you to know I was going to call in. I will give props to You, Travis, Ben and Eric T. as well.
I am interested to see what Jeff thinks of your article. He was a pretty strong proponent that something needed to be done so i am anxious to see if your article swayed him. It did me!
Sometimes it is hard to get on as they have many guests and i can only call in on my commute home wich is about 45 minutes. As soon as I get on I will let you know. It reallis a great show and Marek is a great host and knows his stuff.
Thats my rant, bet it don't make a dent
Were you the caller?
Also, I’m surprised mister “I can’t figure out facebook” can handle satellite radio. I pictured you with a transistor radio with a AA battery in the back.
No some other guy called, and although he references how awesome the site is he also did say that the masthead is basically a bunch of “stat geeks”. He said it in a good way. But it is my favorite radio program and Marek is awesome so I was a proud when the topic came up.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
What channel is HNIC Radio on Sirius? I have XM… thinking that’s probably one of the shows that’s on a Sirius-only channel
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by Travis Hughes on May 12, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
No XM has the Hockey stuff and Travis, Mr. Press Pass, stop being a cheap as and spend the extra 4 or 5 bucks a month to get the Best of Sirius Package.
I listen to this show on Sirius often and it is great. And I often gush about this website to every Flyer fan I know.
Kudos to Geoff, Travis, Ben etc. who run it. And to most of the posters, who generate a lot of interesting discussion.
I only listen to like three channels anyway, I’m happy with buy a beer with that extra four bucks.
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by Travis Hughes on May 12, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I am the dude and am calling in today
Just a heads up that I am calling in today (5/17) and hope to get on to discuss Geoffs article with Marek. I was hoping someone in BSH Nation was a listener and you are the guy. I plan on telling “Punch” the producer that Geoff would be a good guest to have if they want Flyers talk and will give props to all the guys who write for BSH.
Thats my rant, bet it don't make a dent
I decided to revisit this article when I saw all the negative responses it was getting on Twitter. To me, it seems pretty straightforward….a big name goalie is NOT worth their weight in gold.
Not to mention I won the Stanley Cup in NHL11 last night with Bob as my starter. And he won the Conn Smythe. So there.
"Halak way out of the net! It pinballs to the crease...SCOOORRREEEEE!"
Or follow me on Twitter: @mpbless022
haha, I loved Travis’ remark about how it’s good news.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Well people are angry about the way we exited the playoffs and found a scapegoat. They want a shakeup, something new. And when people are angry, they aren’t very rational.
So what if our goalies are good enough as it is?
"Halak way out of the net! It pinballs to the crease...SCOOORRREEEEE!"
Or follow me on Twitter: @mpbless022
haha, exactly.
And I’m glad Eric had me include the “Obviously, you can say you want a better goalie because Boucher won’t repeat his great performance” because I wasn’t going to spell it out that clearly. But having Josh Harding be as good as Miikka Kiprusoff should have thrown people off. Instead, they went right to the “mental”, “confidence”, and “weak goal” argument. Which… is very, very weak.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I’m glad I read through this article because I was excited and hopeful that Vokoun or Brizzy would be a Flyer next year. I even thought of the Brizzy-Bob Russian connection and what that’d do for Bob’s development. But further removed from Game 4, I began to question that thought process. Now it seems there is good evidence that that thinking is flawed. And people are angry at you for pointing it out.
"Halak way out of the net! It pinballs to the crease...SCOOORRREEEEE!"
Or follow me on Twitter: @mpbless022
haha, I wish they were just angry at me for pointing it out. No, they think I’m wrong because I don’t account for the “clutchosity” of goalies and the “strain” put on the team when playing in front of a crappy goalie like Michael Leighton.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
No, they think I’m wrong because I don’t account for the "clutchosity" of goalies and the "strain" put on the team when playing in front of a crappy goalie like Michael Leighton.
It’s a shame that Leighton’s crappiness puts such a strain on the team that they played so badly, since last year he proved that his clutchiness could drive them to great heights.
While I agree with a lot of points in the article, saying that a better goalie can only expect to contribute 2 extra wins per season, and thus doesn’t matter, is not totally correct. 2 extra regular season wins certainly wouldn’t do the Flyers much good, but the Flyers problem has never been the regular season… it has been their ability to win in the post-season to ultimately win the cup. And teams usually aren’t able to win the cup without better than average goaltending.
You can look at the Buffalo series and say “look we lost 2 games 1 nothing, so goaltending is not our issue, its scoring,” or you can look at that from the other side and say Ryan Miller was able to steal 2 games for Buffalo, and Boucher spotted the Sabers 3 goals in game 5 for another loss, which almost cost the Flyers that series.
Similarly, while the Flyers played poorly against the Bruins, they played well in game 2, but Tim Thomas was able to steal that one. Would the Boston series have been different if we we’re 1-1 heading to Boston, instead of 0-2… we’ll never know.
In the playoffs every game matters, and great goaltenders have the ability to steal games for teams. And while it is impossible to predict which goalie will “play out of his mind” in the playoffs, it would seem, we would want the goalie with the best chance to do so… which is mostly big name goalies.
And that’s fine. But you’re going to pay that much for “a better chance”? Look at Bryzgalov this year. Look at Ryan Miller this year. Look at Tim Thomas last year.
It’s a much safer bet to spend $3 million on Kris Versteeg or Braydon Coburn than it is to spend it on a goalie who can shit the bed – like Bryzgalov did – at the drop of a hat.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
And teams usually aren’t able to win the cup without better than average goaltending.
| Year | Winning goalie | Career ESS% | Losing goalie | Career ESS%|
+------+----------------+-------------+---------------+------------+
| 2010 | Niemi | .914 | Leighton | .908 |
| 2009 | Fleury | .919 | Osgood | .918 |
| 2008 | Osgood | .915 | Fleury | .918 |
| 2007 | Giguere | .926 | Emery | .914 |
| 2006 | Ward | .898 | Roloson | .920 |
League average goaltender is about .917, average #1 goalie is about .921.
a goalie who can shit the bed – like Bryzgalov did – at the drop of a hat.
And has now two years in a row.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Holy shit, this MikeSab guy just went ninth-degree black belt wrong on Twitter:
@BroadStHockey Russians USED to not care about the Cup. i.e. Cechmanek (doubt you watched back then). stereotype is rooted in history.
That’s seriously impressive. I’m considering Twitter just for the people-watching.
haha, yep. You can only imagine my @replies list today. Comedic gold.
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by Travis Hughes on May 12, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Imagine no more, people!
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Seriously almost blew some iced tea out my nose when I read that. Today was a fun day, cause I actually had time to sit down and keep up with twitter to some extent.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on May 12, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
We interrupt this program for WINTER CLASSIC:
Amid months of speculation, sources confirm Philadelphia is the leading candidate for next year’s Winter Classic.
The NHL hasn’t officially signed off on the location, largely because of building availability in Philadelphia. The NHL would love to host the outdoor game at Lincoln Financial Field, but the NFL’s schedule is making the football stadium virtually impossible, so Citizens Bank Park, the home of the Philadelphia Phillies, will likely be the venue of choice.
The Flyers will likely face the New York Rangers, but the Rangers are waiting for confirmation of their involvement.
Per Dreger
Damnit quotes:
Amid months of speculation, sources confirm Philadelphia is the leading candidate for next year’s Winter Classic.
The NHL hasn’t officially signed off on the location, largely because of building availability in Philadelphia. The NHL would love to host the outdoor game at Lincoln Financial Field, but the NFL’s schedule is making the football stadium virtually impossible, so Citizens Bank Park, the home of the Philadelphia Phillies, will likely be the venue of choice.
The Flyers will likely face the New York Rangers, but the Rangers are waiting for confirmation of their involvement.
I am not sure who said it but the saying goes “figures never lie, but liars always figure”. The bottom line is this you can make the stats say anything you want, IMO stats aren’t the only thing that matters. It isnt just how many goals he gives up or his save percentage over his career against left handed shots on the second tuesday of the month it comes down to when he makes the big save, or in the recent “starting” goalie’s of the Flyers case when they dont make it. Game 2 against Boston the second Boston goal should have been stopped, plain and simple. Better yet you dont give up three goals on 10 shots in the first period these things kill a team and momentum.
No sport is purely numbers, numbers dont put Schilling on the mound pitching on a bloody foot, they dont let a bunch of college kids beat the best hockey team in the world, and they dont push 20-1 underdogs to win the Kentucky Derby. If this thing was all about numbers the Washington Capitals would still be playing hockey, after all they had the best point percentage in the Eastern Conference this year, so statiscally they should win more games then anyone. There are intangibles that go into every human endeavor, including sports.
Here is another way to look at numbers Mark Recchi has a career points per game average of .93 and he played 81 games this year so according to your logic he should have scored 75.33 points, he didnt he scored 48, 27 points below his mean. In fact the last time he was above his mean was in 2000, 10 seasons ago. Your retort is obviously he is 42 his ice time is lower he plays a different system etc. etc So even though he has “underperformed” according to stats for the last 10 years teams want him around for his leadership and the fact that he scores big goals at the big times look at the goal last year in game 4 of the flyers series. These things are intangibles, does the simple fact that a Vokoun or any of the other big goalies is in the net give the guys more swagger? I think so
I know you can come up with a stat to refute my arguments, and that is just my point you can make any stat say whatever you want. So dont bother wasting your time crunching numbers. You cant measure some of the things that a stud goalie brings. I think someday Bob is that guy, however right now I think it is Vokoun, I could be wrong. I also do not think a 35 year old goalie who wants a shot at the cup demands 5+ million a year especially after what he saw last year with Nabokov and Turco. I think he could be had for 2 mil on a one year deal. Does that mean no Leino probably but Leino didnt help win a cup this year either so is he a vital key, I mean after all he only has a .49 ppg average over his career, maybe we can trade him for Recchi, who as pointed out has a better career PPG? But those are just stats right?
by Highaltitude784 on May 12, 2011 6:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I am so glad you wasted your time.
Sadly, I won’t even waste my time explaining how you have nary a clue what this article says.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I find it interesting that you disagree with both of the following statements:
- It’s really important to have a goalie like Vokoun or Luongo because he gives the players confidence and they play better in front of him
- Vokoun and Luongo are crap goalies because they (and the players in front of them) have never won anything
Really? Why so?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Group A thinks Vokoun and Luongo are mega-awesome because they make the guys in front of them better.
Group B thinks Vokoun and Luongo suck because they have never won the cup, which is mostly because the guys in front of them weren’t better.
You’re stuck in the middle with this crazy radical theory that Vokoun and Luongo don’t have all that much control over the guys in front of them and that we should evaluate them based on their own individual performance. You nutjob.
Group B is obviously wrong.
Group A… people think a goalie makes a forward better at scoring goals? Better at backchecking?
Am I really in the minority by saying both groups are wrong, and wearing a C on my chest?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but you’re obviously not good with the mainstream media and you’re not a good leader…you don’t deserve that C
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by mpbless on May 12, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is so very true.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You cant measure some of the things that a stud goalie brings.
Great point. For example, Tomas Vokoun played in Sunrise, Fl. Lived in Parkland, which is landlocked, but right outside Boca. I bet that fucker owns a boat. He would have to marina it, sure, but with that kind of money in Florida? Damn right he had a boat. Means he already has a hitch. He’s bringing that thing to the Jersey Shore, no doubt. And you don’t think Jeff Carter and Mike-now-Michael Richards want to ride on a fuckin boat? Then you’re a fool. Of course Jeff Carter wants to ride on a boat. Look at his highlights. You know what’s legal on international waters? Everything, that’s what. If you were Mike-now-Michael Richards, wouldn’t you want to watch a knife fight? I would. Hell, I’d say a boat is the sine qua non of any elite goaltender.
Still, a lot of those things are tangible. And, for tax purposes, quantifiable as well.
by Snevik on May 12, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
It’s been rec’d twice now.
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The bottom line is this you can make the stats say anything you want
This kind of thing kills me. If Geoff wrote the exact same post, but concluded that the Flyers do need a big name goaltender, then I’m sure many people would have been happy because it’s the conclusion they wanted without looking at the numbers. That would have been making the stats say something he wanted.
The conclusion he came to was drawn from the numbers, and I hate the fact that people think it’s data manipulation.
Mourning Gagne forever.
by ToddtheFox on May 12, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would be so happy if people who reply to objective numerical evidence with “you can make the stats say anything you want” would not just make this claim, but actually prove it by making the stats back up their opposing viewpoint.
From there, I like to imagine we engage in discourse on the merits and flaws in each approach, come to some sort of agreement, and then ride off into the sunset on our flying pink unicorns.
I was going to write a well thought out response, but I can’t get my mind of those flying pink unicorns. I assume they are part pegasus if they’re flying.
But seriously, if people think they can make the numbers show anything they want, then they haven’t tried to do so.
Mourning Gagne forever.
Well “they” can’t make the numbers say anything, but “they” think that anyone can make numbers say anything because one-time “they” heard someone say that “numbers can be made to say anything.”
What can't Giroux do?
Maybe every time we use statistics, we should present our best case for each side in a point-counterpoint style.
Pro: The analysis here shows that one of these goalies would only be expected to save a few more goals than the current tandem did this year, and their cost would not be worth it.
Con: Teams need great goalies to succeed in the playoffs. Nope, that doesn’t work — when you look up the numbers, you find that lots of teams have succeeded with mediocre goalies and that Boucher is the only one of (Boucher, Vokoun, Kiprusoff, Bryzgalov) with a winning record in the playoffs.
Con: Teams don’t play well in front of mediocre goalies. Nope, the numbers don’t support that either — the Flyers played very well in front of these same goalies last playoffs and for the first half of this year, before Pronger got hurt (which I don’t believe was the goalies’ fault).
Con: The differences between those goalies and ours are bigger than they look, because our defense made Bob and Boucher look good and would make those guys megasuperstars. Nope, the numbers on shot quality suggest that the Flyers gave up more dangerous shots than the Flames, Coyotes, or Panthers.
Yeah, I dunno how to make the numbers support the other side. I need one of them to do it for me.
by Eric T. on May 12, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can make the stats say anything example
Thesis: The Flyers cannot resign Ville Leino becasue he is as good as Ilya Kovalchuk and his salary will be $5,888,883
In the article above the parameters used were only from 2010-11 year so we will use those numbers
Leino GP = 81 G= 19 A = 34 PTS = 53
Kovy GP = 81 G= 31 A = 29 PTS = 60
Kovy Salary (Cap hit) = $6,666,667 / 60 = $111,111/ pt
Since we are using last years numbers to predict goalie numbers for next year we can also predict Leino will score at least 53 pts again next year so
53 * $111,111 = $5888883
So I just made my stats say Leing is worth almost 6 mil a year…
All of those numbers are objective evidence over the same sample size used above so how can anyone rationally argue Leino will only get 2-3 mil a year I just showed evidence he is worth double that.
My whole issue with this article is this the author is using stats to try and predict how many goals goalie X will give up over a year, he even goes as far as predicting the exact goal differential between this year and next year. Yet when he attempts his snarky sarcastic evaluation of Ed Sinder’s comments he states and I quote “In a short playoff series, nobody can predict which goalie will play out of his mind.” So his magic eight ball based on stats can let him predict how a goalie tandem will perform over an entire year, to the exact goal differential, but no one can predict when a goalie will step up in the playoffs? Isn’t this a contridiction? Couldn’t we just use his parameters and say next year in the playoffs Tim Thomas will post X stats in the second rd based on what he did last year? Of course we could because the whole premise of the article is you can predict how many goals a certain goalie tandem will give up based on last years numbers.
There is one stat no one can argue with and that is the Flyers have not won a cup in 36 years. I want that one to change in my lifetime. I know the goalies we had this year did not make it happen and just like last year and just like the year before that and etc. etc. Hell the thing has become such a joke it is on the masthead here and they make T-shirts about it. Maybe changing the goalie for a big name guy is the answer, I don’t know but at this point it might be worth a shot. Whatever the answer is I just want them to find it, please dear God.
by Highaltitude784 on May 12, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
In the article above the parameters used were only from 2010-11 year so we will use those numbers
And you’re already wrong.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
“This year, the Flyers gave up 2,465 shots, ranking 13th in the NHL in shots against per game. The numbers above are based on the Flyers giving up the same number of shots.”
So you used this years shot totals to predict next year’s data a one year sample size yet you used career save percentage to predict goalie performance?
This contradicts your thesis. Both Vokoun and Bryzgalov have been better then their career numbers the last few years (Vokoun has been better then his career every year since the lockout , and in 7 of his 13 NHL seasons,and Bryzgalov has been better then career 3 of the last 4 years). Just using Vokoun over the last three years he has averaged .924% vs a career of .917%. So by your hypothesis there is no way he should be able to average better then career SV% for more then half his career. Maybe one or two deviations from standard but not more then half his career.
The more glaring contradiction is that you claim you can predict goal differential i.e goalie performance in one paragraph and then turn around and say no one can predict goalie performance in the playoffs.
This was an example of how anyone can make stats say whatever they want if they choose to just like you did. Much better for you to use career SV% to prove your point then use his last three years or hell just even last year (.922%) which would be the same sample size as Bob.
by Highaltitude784 on May 12, 2011 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Now this is a good solid concern about the data.
Vokoun does have a distinct discrepancy between his pre-lockout and post-lockout numbers. His 8700+ ES shots after the lockout are probably enough to establish a talent level, so he may be legitimately better now. If we use those numbers, how much does it bump up the benefit of signing Vokoun? What do we have to give up to get him? Does it become worth it?
On the other hand, I think the concern about the shot totals probably works the other way. If anything, with a healthy Pronger all year and this defense fully functional, the shots against would be expected to go down, which would reduce the impact a new goalie would have.
As for the contradiction about predicting goalie performance, there is substantial noise at the single season level, but it is basically all noise at the playoff series level. I don’t see that as a contradiction personally.
Further to that point, Geoff used career save percentage because the previous year alone would introduce a lot of noise — it’s pretty well established that a multiyear sample size has better predictive power for goalies.
But you bring up another good point with Bob having only one year — with a sample size that’s not large enough to know the true talent, the observed results tend to overestimate distances from the mean. Bob having a .923 ESS% in his first year means his true talent is probably somewhere between .918 and .925 — how much impact does it have if we assume he’s a bit closer to the mean, say .921? How about if we regress him all the way to the worst-case .918?
It’s some simple arithmetic to work out how much these changes affect the results. Maybe they change the conclusion or maybe not. It’s very useful — and highly encouraged — for commenters to point out this sort of concern and help refine the analysis. But just saying “you can prove anything with numbers so what’s the point” is not very helpful.
I am not trying to be perjorative, I just don’t see how anyone can argue that a guy with a career (since we are using that number) .917% is only a small upgrade over a guy with a career .901%, I just don’t see it being a few goal differential. More importantly I believe it is next to impossible to make the kind of prediction he is making.
I think the better arguement is how much would one of those guys cost? I just don’t see Vokoun getting 5.7 mil again, but who knows.
by Highaltitude784 on May 12, 2011 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
And yet I showed you. Total save percentage is highly subject to special teams play, which is highly subject to large variances due to the small number of shots in those situations.
When the career ESS% for Boucher is 0.912 and 0.927 for Vokoun, that is a difference of 0.015. In a 2,000 shot sample, that means Vokoun will stop 30 extra pucks. In any given year, Vokoun is 30 goals better at even-strength. But you aren’t replacing 2,000 shots against Boucher with 2,000 shots against Vokoun. You are replacing 1300 shots against Bob with 1300 shots against Vokoun. And that difference (92.7 to 92.3) is a lot closer. You then substitute 700 shots against Boucher with 700 shots against Bob.
In an 82 game season, the 1.5% difference just isn’t that big, no matter how you slice it.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
A) For someone who talks about manipulating data, you sure do like to pick and choose which data is best to use. Simply going with “career numbers” isn’t good enough for you, so you’ll criticize and say a smaller sample is better? Explain that logic.
B) Choosing how many shots to make these hypothetical 2012 goalies face was determined due to the fact that the 2012 Flyers’ defense will look an awful lot like the 2011 Flyers’ defense. If you disagree, well then maybe using the amount of shots given up by the 2008 Flyers’ defense is better. But since the top-5 defensemen will return next year, I think it’s safe to say that the team will be roughly as good defensively next year as they were this year.
C) Do you really think that by changing the number of shots from 2,465 to 2,665 (the amount given up in 2008-2009 will have a drastic impact on the numbers? That is an 8% difference in sample size. It changes the impact of Vokoun from saving 6 goals to being 12 goals worse than Sergei Bobrovsky. Does that make sense to you? No, no it doesn’t. Because the 2008-2009 defense is nothing like the 2010-2011 defense. It adds even more noise to the “you can’t compare across teams” argument you’re making.
D) Brian Boucher has been a lot better during his last three years than he has been his career. Do you think that’s because he’s gotten better in his mid thirties, or do you think that has some team effects, thus further diluting the numbers? Well, let’s take a look. Using Boucher’s last three years instead of his career shows that he would be expected to give up 80.5 goals in 30 starts next year, thus regressing a mere 0.5 goals from this season. Doing the same thing for Bryzgalov, he would give up 129.2 goals, or 0.8 fewer than the above says. Vokoun would give up 118.3 goals, or 8.7 fewer than the above says.
So Bob/Boosh would be 6.5 better than the above says if I used a three-year average instead of career, while Bryzgalov/Bob would change by 0.8, and Vokoun/Bob would be 8.7 better than the above says.
The problem is that it doesn’t change the conclusion. Vokoun/Bob was already going to be 16 goals better than Bob/Boosh. Using three-year averages suggests that tandem would be 18.2 goals better. Even with your solution, the fact remains: Vokoun/Bob would be marginally better than Bob/Boosh, but you’d weaken your team to afford him.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
In case that wasn’t clear at the end: Using three-year averages rather than career averages, you get this:
Vokoun: 118.3
Bob: 77
Bryzgalov: 129.2
Bob: 77
Bob: 133
Boosh: 80.5
Three-year averages mean that Bryzgalov/Bob will stop 7.2 more goals, or be one win better. Vokoun/Bob would stop 18.2 more goals, or be three wins better. Compare this to what you got above (Bryz/Bob = 14 goals) and you see that three-year averages argue against signing Bryzgalov over Boucher. Further, three-year averages barely made Vokoun look better than Boucher, not even giving the Flyers a point in the standings.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok that spun me, doesnt it say Vokoun and Bob give you three more wins?
by Highaltitude784 on May 13, 2011 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t matter you win they should just keep Boucher and Bob, I really hope it works. If not at least you don’t have to change the masthead slogan.
by Highaltitude784 on May 13, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not even arguing for Boucher. I do not want Boucher re-signed. I am simply refuting the notion that a “big name goalie” is the solution to the Flyers. The number of goals saved by “a big name goalie” is quite small, and since they will almost certainly result in a weaker team – as a result of the cap costing a player like Leino – the improvement in net is offset by the loss on the ice.
If there was no salary cap, I’d say sign Vokoun immediately. But since money spent in goal means money not spent on the ice, a small gain results in a small loss, and you are right back where you started. Except goaltending is fickle, and there’s no way to know whether Vokoun will play like Tim Thomas or Ilya Bryzgalov in a four-game series.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
But so did the career numbers. The difference between Vokoun’s three-year average and what my original data (using career numbers) said was 11 goals. They went from being 6 goals better than the 2011 actual to being 17 goals better.
But 2012 Bob/Boucher (because of the difference between Boucher’s three-year average and his career) went from costing 10 compared to 2011 to costing 3.5.
Using career numbers, 2012 Vokoun/Bob would have given up 204 goals, saving nearly three wins (16 goals) compared to 2012 Bob/Boosh. Using three-year averages, 2012 Vokoun/Bob would have given up 195.3 goals, saving just over three wins (18.2 goals) compared to 2012 Bob/Boosh (who give up 6.5 fewer goals than career averages said).
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, you can try and use stats to support any argument you want, but if you use the wrong numbers, or misinterpret the data, then you aren’t going to convince anyone of your position.
The whole basis of your example is so flawed that no one is going to believe that Leino should get $6 million per year.
Mourning Gagne forever.
I re-read that thesis about 5 times and then just shook my head and didn’t read the rest.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on May 12, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me know if you want me to disprove that with using more significant numbers and analysis? Or if you accept that no one would buy what you’re selling because the data you used to support it and the sales pitch you made were weak at best.
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G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on May 12, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Eric, the statistical numbers may not lie. The interpretation of them does. You can collect descriptive statistics all you want – and no one can possibly refute them. But once you try to relate two of them into a causal relationship, without accounting for secondary variables and probability, you have started making subjective descriptions of the statistics – you are no longer actually DOING statistics. We have seen in several arguments on this site that the ‘winner’ of most stats arguments is the one who includes the most data … but data does not prove anything other than that the data exists. It is in interpretation that data becomes useful, and the mathematical interpretation of data is ‘real’ statistics (interpretive statistics). Just showing that Ryan Miller is the best goalie out there doesn’t automatically make him the odds-on favorite to win the Cup, right? There’s a famous statistical argument, completely without flaws, that shows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure whether you understood my point, so I’ll try reiterating it. All I am asking for is that a person who disagrees make some effort to identify flaws, rather than just saying “statistics don’t mean anything”.
What I am asking is that when someone thinks the interpretation is wrong, they should explain why the interpretation is wrong. If they think the author is implying a causal relationship that does not exist, they should explain why they think the relationship is not causal and what else might have caused the observed effect. If they think the data is missing secondary variables or probabilistic impact, they should say so and explain what they think is missing.
Surely you can see the difference in value-added between these two possible responses to Geoff’s article:
“I am nervous about assuming Vokoun’s career save percentage over his career would be the most likely if he were on the Flyers next year. Hasn’t he been better lately? Wouldn’t he be better still with the Flyers defense in front of him?”
“You can show all the numbers you want, but it doesn’t mean anything because we all know you can just make the numbers say whatever you want them to. The Flyers goalies were a laughingstock in the playoffs and it’s ridiculous to say we can’t do any better than that.”
I absolutely see the difference in the two proposed responses. I also don’t think either are, in fact, incorrect. I just think the first one is more, shall we say, respectful of those who live and breathe stats? How about this:
“Without accounting for the defense in front of a goalie in some way, shape, or form, how can you make any assumptions about his skill level or future performance? Without seeing that the Novokuznetsk defense in front of Bob was horrific, his save percentages in Russia would be far less remarkable, wouldn’t they? Or the generally accepted assumption without the stifling defenders and two-way forwards on the Wings, Osgood isn’t a ‘good’ goalie? I would think that making some relationship between shot location with a modifier for deflections and repeat incidence, then correlating that value over a reasonable save sample size, would be far more definitive.”
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not about respect, it’s about making a productive contribution.
I have no problem with what you said — it identifies a specific concern (team effects on save percentage). It invites discussion. Heck, it even proposes a solution.
Those are all useful things to do. They lead to interesting discussion and perhaps an improved model. I welcome those comments.
is an example of a comment that is absolutely welcome. Notice how it led to an interesting discussion about team effects and reproducibility and sample size. This is in direct contrast to some of the comments above.
Writing this in a separate reply to emphasize that this is an unrelated thought.
I think most of the contentious debate above was really a semantic distinction. What I think you meant was something like “there is a lot of unexplained variance in goaltender performance, so while the average expected performance might be only 10 goals better, I think you made overly definitive statements in passages like this: ‘If the Flyers could somehow locate who the 2012 Vezina Trophy winner will be and acquire him, they will get an additional three wins next year.’”
Unfortunately, what you said was something more like “the statistics say that if we keep the same roster then next year we will get swept in the second round. Statistics lie.” I think I know what you were getting at with unexplained variance and excluded variables, but your statement was hyperbolic and induced an equally (or even more) exaggerated response.
I’m not trying to be the tone police; you’re welcome to write the comments in any (non-rule-breaking) fashion that you choose. I considered not writing this at all because I didn’t want to imply otherwise.
But I do think both you and Geoff might have enjoyed the discussion a lot more if you had started it with a less combative response. You said above that your job is to look for this kind of analytical flaw — that suggests to me that you can be an incredibly valuable source of feedback in these conversations, and I’d be disappointed to see that potential wasted because of semantic communication issues.
you’re welcome to write the comments in any (non-rule-breaking) fashion that you choose
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The voice of reason … thanks, Eric.
I don’t want to overstate my use of stats in my job – I’m an engineer who does projects that often blur the line between ‘hard’ engineering and ‘social’ engineering. So sociology and the ‘statistics’ behind it are often used by people to justify the pet projects they want, and I am forced to use logic and mathematics to undermine their assertion that (for instance) putting bike lanes on the Schyulkill Expressway is a great idea because then bike ridership would jump 2,000% – just look at these statistics that say you get 100 new riders per mile of bike lane!
So my natural inclination is to dismiss statistical studies. There is, assuredly, a distinct difference between using ‘stats’ (as many here often mean them – just the accumulated numbers reflecting someone’s measurable performace, which to me is just ‘data’) and statistics (then taking that data to attempt to predict something or identify a causal relationship). I am a stats cynic, I guess. But most of the time, I manage to hold my metaphorical tongue in check because I don’t see the leap from ‘supporting data’ to ‘real statistics’ here; Geoff started to blur that line with this article, and I felt I should temper the enthusiasm.
All that said, you are (of course) quite correct that my reaction could have been far better received and far more useful had I not been combatative in my comments. I will try to remember that – I did apologize to Don and Geoff above somewhere for the most radical excesses of my outrage. In fact, I am humbled by the fact that our disagreement devolved into such name-calling, since that is exactly the commentary I often ridicule here – yet here I was engaging in it.
I do apologize to all the readers who had to ‘suffer’ through the tiff between Goeff and myself, but I think with yours (Eric) and Don’s mediation, we’re pretty well reconciled, so thanks.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 14, 2011 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I fully agree with the conclusion he came to … but the statistics are still not the be-all, end-all. There is no causal relationship demonstrated, therefore the ‘conclusion’ is completely subjective.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
The purpose of this was not to demonstrate a causal relationship. The purpose was to insert other goalies in the Flyers lineup with the shots faced from this year and see the effect. We know that roughly 6 goals is worth 2 points. We know that the Flyers actually faced more dangerous shots than the 3 teams the hypothetically goalies played for this year. We are still looking in to team effects on goal, but at this point, we still believe their effects are minimal.
So we have a decent idea of the difference in goals in the regular season. Now we move on to recognize that due to the fact that the playoffs are just small sample sizes with lots of variation in the numbers, and therefore predicting a goalies playoff success is near impossible. We can safely assume the best goalie gives a team the best chance, which is fairly obvious, but their performance is not guaranteed in the playoffs.
now we have those two things and we bring in the caveat of the Salary Cap. Obviously I’d love to add Vokoun and keep the team as is. I’d also like to add Lidstrom in for SOD, but we have limits. So with the limited amount of points a top tier goalie would have added to this years team, and because of the unpredictability of the playoffs, it is not wise to spent a large portion of cap space on a goalie. If the stats analysis showed otherwise we’d say take the money, spend it on a stud goalie. Would it have sat better with you if we tried to show at what threshold of shots faced during a season would a stud goalie be worth $X?
There was never an attempt at a causal relationship here, and not every statistical analysis involves a causal relationship, especially when talking very simplistic stats analysis, which this is.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
We are still looking in to team effects on goal, but at this point, we still believe their effects are minimal.
That was basically my whole point/argument. I think the team in front has plenty to do with it. I do not, in fact, have anything beyond anecdotal evidence, like the claim that Osgood wasn’t a ‘good’ goalie. So I admit the weakness (in that respect) of my argument – all I ask is reciprocity from the stat-heads. Your usual statistic posts include some admission of error and fallibility – and with full disclosure of that, I am willing to accept them (especially if I happen to agree with the point you’re making) at face value. I merely thought/felt that the association Geoff was trying to show between ‘quality of goaltender’ and ‘goals allowed by TEAM (emphasis added by me)’ was not strong enough, even given that he did enumerate a number of caveats and error possibilities. The evaluation of the statistical significance was insufficient, in other words, to justify the conclusive nature of the statements made.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I will usually link to them as well. There was actually a link in a recent FlyBY in an analysis of team effects. I’ll do a better job to link to those. Eric is by far the most conscious of it. I kind of assume that those people who are actually interested int he discussion will ask for the link, and those that will dismiss the topic no matter what aren’t worth the time to provide all the links to start with it. Since I’m often responding at work, or in somewhat of a rush, I don’t do a great job of linking everything.
I also have an issue with the way you are using the word statistical significance because it’s a word that gets thrown around a lot with out the proper understanding of the term (not to say you don’t understand it). The way I read you using it here was that you don’t feel you were shown enough evidence to support the statements Geoff went on to make…which is completely fair if that’s how you feel. However, there is no significance testing that took place here.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Yeah – I don’t link much either. Same reasons too – I might vaguely remember reading something that may have been related, but no time to actually go find it.
And sure – there’s a difference between significant statistics and statistical significance. My unsupported opinion is that the conclusions Geoff drew from his data were not sufficiently causal, and therefore my inference was that the correlation was not statistically significant, regardless of how it appeared. In essence, I was asking for that sort of evaluation – in a very combatative and dismissive way, admittedly. I’m not even really sure where you’d test the correlation – is it between dollars spent on goalies and winning percentage? Is it between save percentage and goals allowed? Shots blocked and median scoring? Don’t honestly know. As I explained to Eric above, I am a stats nay-sayer at work, and I let that ‘you gotta prove it to me, not the other way around’ attitude surface here. So I apologize for that.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 14, 2011 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well that’s the thing Geoff did not have any casual analysis. If you’d like to suggest one, we could test one, though the save % and goals allowed is pretty self explanatory. Geoff merely took something and said insert B in to A, now insert C in to A. Okay, now look at opposite extremes X and Y and insert them in to A. You can see the minimal effect. If you like the way the Flyers roster is current constructed on D and O, spending money on a stud goalie would be a bad idea because it would require either 1 major roster move, or a few significant roster moves. So there is no correlation here other than ESS% and ES Shots to ES goals (then the same for PP and PK), with the assumption that team effects would be minimal. If I were Geoff I would have also included team best and worst shots against from the year just to provide even more of the extreme cases to show how little effect they still have on wins. But anyway, I understand you desire for that casual relationship, but that wasn’t part of the analysis here (outside of taking Shots * Save% and subtracting that from Shots to get goals allowed…and I thought that was accepted as highly correlated haha).
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
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You're right


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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What, didn’t put up the “History” commercial someone made last year with the great vid?
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on May 12, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Good article. It’s funny how people are angry at this post. Of course they bring up the argument that stats can prove anything (which is false, because there are good stats and bad stats). But their “proof” is all about their feelings. Great.
Eagles next starting QB: "East-West Shrine Game Legend" Mike Kafka
Flyers: Sigh
Phillies:Gah enough with the injuries!.
Only I can tell you how all the players felt.
This never ceases to amaze me. And further, that they laugh at the idea that those feelings could potentially cause the exact opposite of what they are arguing.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Again, I love bsh and the articles you guys produce. I always spread em around.
Of Philadelphia:
I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.
Wow I’m late to the party! Great write up as per usual. It seems most of the reg folk agreee with you but then I’ve noticed that most reg posters are a little conservative-I know I generalize..But I’m going with Snider and what some have said here. When you skate out on the ice and you see the name Boucher or Leigton on the back of the tenders jersey your probably thinking ‘I can’t have a night off’. Imaging taking the pregame skate and seeing someone like Miller or Bryzgalov warming up for you? Youre gonna be thinking ‘fucking sweet! We got this.’ I really believe that there is a confidence factor. I know stats can show that boucher played well but players know this guy has been shipped around, he’s let in softies-he’s our buddy he’s a good bloke but no he doesn’t inspire me to greater heights.
I think this is a non win topic until either we do get a top stopper and they do in fact propel the team win great play or Bob takes the No.! and runs with it. Other than that I respect all opinions on this-I personally am willing to ship someone to get someone like Bryzgalov .
I just can’t but help remembering Buffalo and Boston who have far less superior forwards keeping pace or even outscoring us. Players like Lucic who can pot 15 goals in the season suddenly become offensive dynamos. I know I’m all over the place now.
When you skate out on the ice and you see the name Boucher or Leigton on the back of the tenders jersey your probably thinking ‘I can’t have a night off’
Even if this does happen, how the flip is that a bad thing.
Mourning Gagne forever.
yeah I suppose you get paid to do a job …So you propose to go at it with the exact same team as this year-perhaps without the constant goalie yanking?
by Gonzotatcics on May 12, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My personal position is that the team was really freaking good for the first half of the year and got derailed as injuries accumulated.
If they can get healthy and go at it again, I’m fine with that — I think guys like JvR and Giroux are growing more than Pronger and Timonen are declining, so status quo might even be a bit of an improvement.
If they had some cap space, I’d be looking to use it on a goaltender. But they’re right up against the cap, so I’m perfectly content if they can patch things back together and try again. A good forward for a good goalie seems like a lateral move in the near term, and for the longer term I’d rather keep our forwards together, since they’re all youngish and playing under team-favorable contracts.
Although it wouldn’t be my choice, I would be OK with replacing Leino with Wellwood and putting Bob in the AHL to make room for a $3M goalie. But moving someone like Carter to make room for a $5M goalie seems like a step backwards.
Although it wouldn’t be my choice, I would be OK with replacing Leino with Wellwood and putting Bob in the AHL to make room for a $3M goalie. But moving someone like Carter to make room for a $5M goalie seems like a step backwards.
As someone who does not want Leino re-signed, and does not want Boucher re-signed, I definitely do not want Bob in the AHL, nor do I want Carter traded. I would be okay with Wellwood replacing Leino, but I’d rather that be Zherdev. I just don’t think a Bryz/Boucher tandem is a large enough improvement to justify putting both Wellwood and Nodl in the top-9.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If you sign Tomas Vokoun, you save sixteen goals. But can you then afford to re-sign Ville Leino? Probably not. Where do you replace his production?
I’m sorry if this has been touched on at some other point in the comments as I haven’t had time to thumb through them all, but I just wanted to make the point that Leino is a soft-minutes forward who really isn’t very good in his own end. I’m glad you realize that re-signing him probably isn’t a smart move for cap reasons if nothing else, but I think there are definitely cheaper options available who could replace his 62.3% zone start quite adequately.
Definitely. I’m not a fan of Leino.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I enjoyed being told by someone at JFTC this morning that we had to trade Giroux for Bernier or else we wouldn’t have money to resign our MVP, Leino.
So what they’re saying is: They would trade Bernier for Leino?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I enjoyed being told by someone at JFTC this morning that we had to trade Giroux for Bernier or else we wouldn’t have money to resign our MVP, Leino.
Good lord, where was that? Haha.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
It is entirely possible that a guy like Vokoun, acquired at the deadline, would have “inspired confidence” to the point of sparking the team down the stretch. It is also entirely possible that this acquisition could have propelled the Flyers to the #1 seed, and a deep playoff run.
But the problem comes from the fact that Leighton could just as easily have done the same thing. In short samples, anything can happen. And I’ve said I would have rather the Flyers acquired Vokoun than Versteeg – which they had the cap space to do. It’s just difficult to see the team playing any better in the first half of next year than they did in the first half of this year if they get Vokoun. Then, the playoffs are such a small sample that anything can happen.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, too many comments to go through but nice writeup. My only concern is what happens if Boosh reverts to career form and Bob doesn’t really sustain his rookie performance. Boosh’s career has been pretty up and down, and we have no idea what Bob’s career’s going to look like.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 12, 2011 8:47 PM EDT reply actions
This is a legitimate, thoughtful concern.
It is why I have constantly said I do not want Boucher re-signed.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, no, I definitely want that.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You know it might me comparable to baseball. Great pitching can get you so many wins but in the end you need the whole team working together. Halliday in Toronto was awesome. But in the end 10-15 wins as spectaular as they were couldn’t get the Jays a championship. So I make a full retraction of what I said. Na just kiddin. I just wannna see a big name goalie skate out with the Flyers jersey on. I would get so pumped! Maybe I’ll just go out and by me a PS3 trade and see how I feel.
By the way, andrewch7 on twitter who stopped reading the article and asked for timely saves, stolen games and deflating goals.
It’s probably impossible to do that as they are very subjective. But maybe some ideas:
- average out the number of goals scored by the Flyers in a Flyers win and the number of goals scored in a Flyers loss. Now filter out the games so you’re only including those in which the Flyers scored closer to their loss average than their win average. Then find the goalie save % maybe? I don’t know, but something to assess how well the goalie does when the offense is playing crap and how much chance there is of then winning the game.
- If you want to talk about timely saves/deflating goals, maybe filter the results so that you are only counting shots and saves for when the Flyers are 1 goal down, tied or 1 goal up. The idea of that would be to show that there’s no significant difference between the Vezina winners and Bob/Boosh.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 12, 2011 8:55 PM EDT reply actions
This might be the craziest analysis I have ever seen. You cannot predict goals against by players that played on different teams. First Bob might be even better next year or he could take a step back. If they bring in a guy like Vokoun, he might win the Vezina playing on a quality team finally or he might suck because he doesn’t see enough shots to stay sharp. You never know so trying to do statistical analysis on this type of decision is insane!
Phigment
Good lord I hope so. Or else I’ll go off again.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 12, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
There are just too many variables that are assumed to be constants in the math. Trust me I have my degrees in Mathematics. This is a big reach.
Phigment
So then never knowing would go in to the camp of don’t spend a lot of cap space on a goalie?
Also they aren’t assumed to be constants. Geoff is aware of team effects, scoring chances for this year between the 4 teams the goalies played for…they are more assumed to have a minimal effect on the conclusion.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Thank you.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
First Bob might be even better next year or he could take a step back.
Absolutely. But the chances of him diverting from this year far enough in either direction to make a large enough difference is quite minimal. If you want to cling to that small chance, go right ahead.
If they bring in a guy like Vokoun, he might win the Vezina playing on a quality team finally or he might suck because he doesn’t see enough shots to stay sharp.
Again, this is all inherently obvious. Which is why I looked at what a Vezina winning goalie would do. And if you want an idea of what would happen if he “sucks”, look to Michael Leighton’s numbers.
You never know so trying to do statistical analysis on this type of decision is insane!
So basically, your conclusion is: “But you don’t know, so don’t try!” Spoken like someone who strives for knowledge.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Take it easy, Geoff. Obviously you enjoy debate as much as anyone, but that last line would serve more to stifle debate. And no doubt you’re feeling defensive after 24 hours of this. So he values your work less than others and said so. I don’t see it or think of it as a personal attack. I myself cannot spend the time doing this kind of analysis yet I appreciate you doing so and the more rational debate that springs from it, but I don’t obsess over it nor do I believe Phig should be put down for his opinion. After all, you asked for it.
/shutsupnow
I agree. I understand why Geoff took that last sentence stab, because you can only tolerate so much, but the more he puts in lines like that, the more people say stuff that drives me, and I’m sure Geoff, nuts.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
In defense of Geoff, he’s had to deal with backlash on Twitter as well, which has been as bad, if not worse. For over 29 hours now. I really can’t blame him anymore.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I don’t blame him. I post this to keep Geoff in check, he know why I do it…we talked about it today before he posted his response below. I do it so we can avoid the same blow up for the 5th time in 1 thread.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
You do a great job of keeping me in check. I needed you around when MarioD was here.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Granted Don is never around post-game so , but after Game 2 of last year’s Boston series, you definitely needed Don around. You and Mario were out of control.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Wow, that was a blast from the past. I really miss the 27 color photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back explaining what each one was.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
by JerseyDriver on May 14, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No comment.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 14, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand the last sentence was a stab, but the entire comment was “You don’t know, so don’t try.”
If that was true, you can say anything you want. I think Ovechkin is going to the KHL and his NHL career is over. The point is, you don’t know. So how is that constructive at all?
There is no point in saying “This is pointless, nobody knows anything” because all it does is show that you refuse to even think about it. It doesn’t prove my article wrong, nor does it say anything. It’s infuriating because it is a useless contribution to a discussion.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Just for comparison ...
Adam, this will be the third straight year that sub-par penalty-killing and less-than-stellar goaltending are major factors in the Red Wings losing in the playoffs. Do you think that it’s time for Ken Holland to change his "good goaltending is good enough" philosophy?
Chris Champion, Lansing, Mich.
Chris,
You assumed right. But I don’t know that Holland will be burning up the phone lines this summer looking to replace Jimmy Howard between the Wings’ pipes.
For starters, although Howard wasn’t performing at a Tim Thomas or Dwayne Roloson level in this post-season, he wasn’t Michael Leighton-bad either. And with the Red Wings’ group of skaters so banged-up by the time they got to the playoffs, it was little wonder they were eliminated by a bigger and younger Sharks team.
Holland may decide to give Howard a new experienced platoon-mate, as it seems the end is here for Chris Osgood. But I never expect Holland to make a panic move. And I think to some degree, that’s what bringing in a big-name goalie would represent
http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/40296-Ask-Adam-Does-Detroit-need-a-goalie.html
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
blockquote fail – the entire post is from the link.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 13, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it possible that the shots let in by Bobs/Boush were of a lesser quality that those of Vokoun? I mean, maybe Vokoun is just getting pummeled by excellent scoring chances, where Bob/Boush are letting by some easy ones.
Eric had a link that showed the opposite was true: The Flyers faced more quality shots than either the Panthers or Coyotes.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 13, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you know who really is at fault in this entire situation. It is Bob and Boosh. If one of them would have stepped up and not let in the soft goals then there would be none of this craziness going on. Bob let up at least 2 soft goals vs Buffalo in game 2. Boosh played great at times and then played awful at times.
I really feel that the team kind of …not quit. – but knew in the long run the goalies were not capable at this point in time – not that they suck or anything, they were just struggling and in a team sport when you know that someone is struggling, the puck or ball finds that person constantly.
Snider has just about forced Homer to make a move now. If Homer doesn’t and the team struggles, it might cost him his job. Personally I would rather go after a younger guy over the guys like Vokoun. We have been down the “veteran” guy path with Beezer, Chekmanek, Hacket over the years. The kid in Buffalo is a stud. So is Bernier. Those 2 teams in particular need to make a splash and will be willing to deal at the draft.
Phigment
Bob let up at least 2 soft goals vs Buffalo in game 2
I guess I’ll start by saying I wholeheartedly disagree.
I find the “at least” particularly hilarious, since it implies that maybe the first one was his fault — you know, the one where he let in a goal with all of his defensemen but one lying on the ice while the Sabres passed it back and forth in front of him. And I guess you think it was soft for him to give up a goal when he faced three shots from inside five feet with no help from his defense? Even if you do, I think you’d have to admit that all of the errors they made in front of him on the first goal and the second happened before he let that second one in.
Bob let up at least 2 soft goals vs Buffalo in game 2
Can I assume you are talking about the two power play goals here? Or is it a power play goal and a 3-on-1 odd man rush goal? Not quite sure how you can categorize any one of those goals as soft, let alone at least two.
Boosh played great at times and then played awful at times.If by “awful at times” you mean 15 minutes in Game 6 of the Buffalo series, then yes, I agree. But if you are referring to any other times, then I vehemently disagree as when the team as a whole plays as despicably bad as the Flyers did in the Boston series, there is very little room to categorize the goaltending as awful. How can a goaltender be singled out as awful when the team around him had a complete breakdown in 3 of the 4 games? And should it be a surprise to anyone that in the only game the Flyers played well in that series, Game 2, the Bruins only scored 2 goals?
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Game 5 of the Buffalo series. My mistake.
And also my mistake on the reply fail. Bleh.
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Sometimes ...
It’s really fun to go back and look at our insanity and consider how the team (and our discussion about it) has changed – or not.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
Wow, you came back here too? Weeeeeeeird.
You’re like, Bart to my Hugo.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 6, 2012 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions

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