Could (or, should) the Flyers re-visit the Evgeni Nabokov possibility?
by Travis Hughes on May 19, 2011 3:30 PM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Commentary
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The Philadelphia Flyers have kicked the tires on Evgeni Nabokov before. Last year at the 2010 Entry Draft in Los Angeles, they went as far basically trading for the guy (alright, it was a "verbal agreement"), gaining an exclusive negotiating window with the goaltender for the four days between the draft and July 1.
A deal didn't get done -- largely because Nabokov wanted to hold out and see what he could get as an unrestricted free agent, a move he'd later regret -- but it was a deft move by Paul Holmgren to take a risk-free crack at getting a potential difference maker in goal.
The interest is clearly there from the Flyers, and now, there might be another crack at bringing Nabokov into the fold.
Via Chris Botta of Islanders Point Blank:
[Garth] Snow will also want to ask himself if he can stomach trading two first-rate goaltenders to contenders in the same calendar year without getting a difference-maker in return. He has a strong working relationship with Flyers GM Paul Holmgren. But unless Snow can pry a legit second-pair defenseman or regular-shift forward, why would the Islanders hand over Nabokov to a division rival, a contender that has beaten them regularly for four straight years? The Islanders have no motivation to do anyone any favors where it concerns Nabokov.
Of course, Botta is referring to the trade of Dwayne Roloson a year ago to the Tampa Bay Lightning. In hindsight and perhaps even in foresight, it's clear that the Bolts won the hell out of that deal (the Isles got Ty Wishart, a decent prospect but no star, in return) and surely, Snow doesn't want to get screwed again, and he wants to make the playoffs.
I mean, good luck with that Garth, but you know... holding on to Nabokov, the best goalie he has, is better than the alternative. Still, if the Flyers would be willing to give up one of those pieces that Botta mentions, it'd be a no-brainer for Snow and the Isles. Would it be the same for the Flyers?
We've been over the idea that the Flyers don't need a big-name goaltender, but our biggest gripes with the thought of adding a guy like Ilya Bryzgalov or Tomas Vokoun is cost vs. added value. That kind of deal, in which the Flyers would add nearly $5 million or potentially more to their salary cap, would surely mean the exit of an important piece like Jeff Carter (who is very valuable, despite the hate he gets), and would only result in a negligible difference when it comes to winning hockey games.
The difference with Nabokov is that he's dirt freakin' cheap. Cheaper than both Sergei Bobrovsky and Brian Boucher, in fact. By not reporting to the Islanders last season, the team earned the right to both suspend him and "toll" his contract, meaning that for this upcoming season, Nabokov is under contract for just $570,000.
In other words, Ed Snider could pay him with his pocket change.
Botta does say that it'd take a roster player to make a trade happen in the division. But say the Flyers could offer up a middling, underwhelming, relatively expensive player on the roster -- perhaps one with long hair, a propensity to fall often and a no-trade clause that he's indicated in the past he's willing to waive or Kris Versteeg -- and maybe even get a middle-round 2011 draft pick from the Islanders as well?
Using a strength to address a weakness, while not jettisoning vital pieces like Carter and Mike Richards. It makes sense.
You'd gain about $3.5 million in cap space (which might allow you to replace a bulk of the 20-25 goals lost in the departure of Hartnell or Versteeg), add another prospect via the draft (since we know the importance of young talent, a department in which the Flyers struggle) and you'd get a goaltender who's literally perhaps the perfect mentor for Bobrovsky (they're both Russian, yaknow).
Nabokov is old enough where he'll never get a big contract again, and he's at the perfect age to split or even take the smaller slice of starts as Bobrovsky fills into the job that should ultimately (hopefully) become his for years.
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“why would the Islanders hand over Nabokov to a division rival, a contender that has beaten them regularly for four straight years?”
Because it’s not like he’s ever going to get over himself and play for them, so he’s a bargaining chip right now.
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
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Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
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Because it’s not like having him is going to make much of a difference in how regularly the Flyers beat up on the Islanders.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I don’t know, given his .888 SV% in the KHL and even worse .880 SV% at the WC, it might be in the Isles best interest to trade him to you. Just for a point of reference his replacement had a .923 SV% in the KHL
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
How many games were those in?
I’m not a Nabokov fan by any means. But at $570k and as an alternative to a $5 mil Bryzgalov, I’ll defend Nabokov as a great alternative.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 19, 2011 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
in the KHL he had 22 games, in the WC he had 4 games. Reportedly the Russian coach was happy he got hurt, as he didn’t feel he could pull Nabokov or make him the backup.
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Good idea
Approved- trade versteeg and nabokov and the pick. Matt read fill the hole nicely
by pelle on May 19, 2011 3:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I dont think we’d get a pick in the Versteeg deal,but I would love it.
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hartnell may be willing to waive his NMC but not to go to the Islanders. Versteeg for Nabokov would be great. Gain a little bit more stability in goal and clear some cap space. Although that would essentially meant that we traded a first and a third round pick for Nabokov.
Then we would get away with a lot, since everyone knows first round draft picks are just a story that general managers and coaches tell the fans to make them behave.
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on May 19, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Only a 1st if
We get a third with Nabokov
by pelle on May 19, 2011 3:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know what we’d have to give up or how good Nabokov still is but the $570,000 cap hit is too good to pass up. Unless the Islanders want something ridiculous Homer needs to at least try to make this happen. Plus Nabokov being Russian could really help Bob. As long as Nabby doesn’t teach Bob how to be a whiner and refuse to play for his team.
I love the idea!
I really like the idea of a proven/veteran russian goaltender here to give Bob at least two full seasons before we hand him the keys again.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I’m not sure who is in the market for Nabaok, and if he won’t play for the Isles, Snow might not have much power to demand much in a trade. How really would need a goalie? Leafs (someone to go with Reimer), Lightning, Avs, Coyotes, and Panthers? Maybe the Ducks with Hiller’s vertigo issues, maybe the Oilers (but Khabi still has a few more years on a bad contract)? I don’t think there is enough of a market for Snow to be picky if Nabby won’t play.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Nabokov even…frick.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Nabokov’s agent said he’ll report to camp, so Snow has a bit of leverage.
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by Travis Hughes on May 19, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess, I still don’t see him having much. I see that more as, hey teams that want to trade for Nabby, he’ll actually play for you. Call me crazy, but if he didn’t want to dress for them last year, I don’t see what’s different this year. But I’m just guessing and could be way off. Either way, I don’t see this as a strong market for goalie trades given the FA’s available and the teams that need them. So even if Nabby would play for the Isles, I don’t see there being a ton of callers. Though I guess with his salary, every team might call them just to try to grab him as a back up. So again, i could be way off.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Whats different
You have to remember this is someone who expected to be making about 4 million a year untaxed in the KHL. If Nabokov isn’t good with money, he NEEDS to finish this contract year with someone so he can become a UFA and get a decent contract again.
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
He may need to play, but he can still demand a trade. I don’t know much about the guy personally, but holding out for a better team seems to be far from an extreme assumption. He also needs to play well, I would assume he would want to play for a winner (doesn’t have to be the Flyers), no offense to the Isles.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Leafs (someone to go with Reimer)
Fuck. No.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on May 20, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Or you could take it in context of teams that could potentially need a goalie based on expiring contracts. Leafs are one.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
I'd say it's about 80% probability of Reimer/Gustvasson.
The majority of Nabokov’s value is due to his super discount contract, not his elite goaltending (anymore).
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on May 20, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying it’s highly likely. That’s my whole point, that there aren’t many teams that even potentially need a goalie. Leafs are one that could potentially need a goalie depending of the monster’s health issues. I’m not saying it’s a good chance, but it’s a chance. Plus Reimer is an RFA this year, so that factored in to the whole thing as well.
And I don’t think Nabby is an elite goalie, it’s a value contract.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
When I first read the title for the story, I was against the idea. Then, I read how reasonably we could potentially get him, and now I’m not against the idea. I don’t know that I’m strongly in favor of it (or confident that Snow would be willing to pull the trigger on it), but it’s not a bad possibility.
Maybe Homer can put out the feelers again (my goodness, that almost sounds perverted…)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 19, 2011 4:12 PM EDT reply actions
I’m afraid to voice an opinion on this because it might be used against me next offseason.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
@boknows71
Eric never forgets
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Those silly elephants.
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Meh, we all get stuff wrong all the time. Nothing wrong with that. My only objection is when people forget what they actually thought at the time and later assert that they always held the opposite viewpoint.
My god, if we could trade Hartnell for Nabokov I’d be doing backflips. Don’t see Hartnell waiving his NTC to go there though.
I love laughing when he falls. Does that count?
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
NO.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 19, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I right in assuming that Boosh is probably gone even if we don’t get another goalie (Backlund would be the backup)?
Boucher is an unrestricted free agent as of July 1st. Leighton is still under contract, as well as Backlund (and Bob, obviously).
Four is one too many, so Boosh is almost certainly gone (provided that Leighton isn’t spirited away elsewhere (by some miracle I can’t foresee) and Backlund somehow can’t play…well, you see how hard it is to construct a scenario by which Boosh stays).
I’d love for him to stay, but I can’t see how he can.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 19, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh? Boosh could be here the same way he was this year.
If “someone else” (such as Nabokov) is obtained, then, sure, Boosh is gone. But expect Leighton to enjoy more AHL stints. Or maybe even LTIR, given his back, joining Lappy.
I think the more interesting question is, if no other goalie is obtained, what will happen to Backlund. I don’t think the Flyers would rely on just him and Bob.
Set your JVR in 2011.
I guess that’s right – that could be what happens.
I just have a really bad feeling that Leighton will be our #2 regardless, viz a viz, his contract. I don’t like that idea; I just think it’s likely (provided that he can play – I’d love the LTIR option for him).
Well, I hope Boosh will be back. Provided we don’t sign anyone else, he would be a great backup to Bob.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 22, 2011 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions
The Islanders can’t be on too good terms with Nabokov after he didn’t show up for camp, correct? The Flyers, if they were being smart, might be able to exploit that and sway a cheap trade or signing. Heck, maybe they want Jody, they seem to like that type player
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
Giving up isn't an option
you have to
be willing to give up something good. but nabby is a great option for your team, i would personally hate to see him in my divison
This is the move… Russian, cheap, playing with a chip on his shoulder. If we can get him for Steeg + Picks I’m in 100%.
No, no … we get Nabby and picks for Steeg. Don’t forget – the Flyers don’t have another draft pick until (I believe) the 2018 draft.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 19, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d waive Steeg if we could and use that money for Leino. Getting an all-star goalie in return for him would be better than a bag of pucks…
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m insane for wanting Leino over Steeg?
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
snevik
your nuts .. versteeg blows .. hes worse than hartnel .. worse trade he has ever made .. i can defend the pronger deal,, the upshall deal .. this trade was as bad if not worse thant the steve emiger deal .. hes absoulte garbage and makes over 3 mil
your nuts .. versteeg blows .. hes worse than hartnel .. worse trade he has ever made .. i can defend the pronger deal,, the upshall deal .. this trade was as bad if not worse thant the steve emiger deal .. hes absoulte garbage and makes over 3 mil
He just had surgery for a double sports hernia; if he’s been playing with that for a while, that’s why he’s been underwhelming.
I’d be happy either way. If we trade him and get value in return, great; if we keep him, he could turn out to be a very good acquisition. I don’t think we’ve seen the true Versteeg yet (this year anyway; last year, he did quite well, obviously).
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with him.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 22, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Whether or not you’d rather have Versteeg or Leino (I sort of prefer Steeg because he’s a little more versatile) you can’t just waive him for nothing. The way Leino’s play dropped off in the second has me worried. Maybe that was just a result of the overall team slump but it also seems like other teams figured him out and he didn’t adjust.
I would like a shot on Nabokov, but giving up Steeg or Hartnell straight up is a loss for us, even with the gained cap. Lot of hate for those players—some deserved, some undeserved—is clouding our valuation. Also, I’m not sure we’ve seen Steeg healthy yet.
Versteeg (solid 2nd line forward) at 3.1 million for Nabby at .570 mil is “a loss for us” but…
Carter (solid top line forward and elite scorer) at 5.2 for Brizgalov at 4+ million is the move EVERYONE else wants to make.
If you even thought you liked the Brizgalov deal, what is not to like about this one. Steeg isn’t as important as Carter. Nabby is just as good (I havn’t looked up any numbers but they are both elite goalies) as Ilya and for 4 million less. What is not to love about that possibility?
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree it’s a stupid move. Why would anyone want to trade a better player for a more expensive goalie when we can trade a worse player for a cheaper goalie—-who’s just as good.
It’s not even a matter of which one would you rather do—-Its one move is stupid, the other seems like a no brainer.
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it’s a matter of a stupid move that should not be considered (Carter trade) and a suspect move that should be given due consideration. It’s not like we have to do one or the other. If it comes down to moving either Steeg or Hartnell straight up for Nabokov, or staying pat with Bob/Leights, I’d probably prefer the latter.*
*If this move is taken in isolation. I don’t think you’ll find any easy replacement for either of these guys on the market, but I’d be amenable if this one in a series of trades. Still, either of these guys for Nabokov is a loss of on-ice value.
Finding a replacement for Leino will be harder than finding one for Steeg. If we lose Steeg, we sign Leino. Nodl can replace Steeg and remain on Richie’s line. Then you can put Carter with Richie and Nodl or keep Carter with JVR and G. I think that if Carter and Richie play together with Nodl then we pick up a winger for JVR and G… I like Asham.
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
We had a replacement for Leino in the press box for most of last year. I don’t think NHLers capable of putting up decent numbers with near 70% OZS and great linemates are that rare.
I’m not talking about last year… I said I would rather have Leino than Steeg next year.
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Finding a replacement for Leino will not be hard at all. How hard is it to find a guy that can only play on offense? He’s basically Rob Schremp.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 19, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Schremp has YouTube cred. I think that backs it up.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 19, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Schremp
But he’s HORRIBLE as anything but a Center, and you guys aren’t short on those. It’s why the Islanders gave up on him.
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Rob Schremp is coming to New Zealand to play ice hockey in July, so I’m ok with him.
Mourning Gagne forever.
He had a pretty funny moment
One of the members over at LHH won some contest to have dinner with some Islanders including Schremp. He was talking about the 93 series against the Pens with them, and when someone mentioned it was the last time the Isles won a playoff series, he lifted up his head and said
“Holy Shit, you mean you guys haven’t won a playoff series since 1993?!?!?!”
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I know I am one of the most virulent Hartnell-haters, but I still say that Sestito can damn near play Hartnell’s role, and for a quarter of the cost. Hartnell just doesn’t have any marketable skills beyond his size.
As for Versteeg, I agree that the jury is still out – he was injured. But how about the following replacements: Frolov, Ponikarovsky, Cole, Brunette, Zherdev, Leino, Dupuis, Tanguay, Jokinen, Darche, Hordichuk, Winchester, Vrbata, Knuble, Upshall, Recchi, Dvorak, …. you get the idea.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 19, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I know I am one of the most virulent Hartnell-haters, but I still say that Sestito can damn near play Hartnell’s role
This sentence is redundant. It says twice that you hate Hartnell too much to give a proper value judgment.
Steeg is young and under an RFA contract. Some of the people you listed are just around what he is—a good top 9 guy—but most aren’t of the same quality. Surely Versteeg’s not unique, but he’s here, and under a good contract.
True and true.
But seriously – and I am NOT a stat-head to evaluate this (calling Eric, Geoff, or others) – how much of Hartnell’s ‘scoring’ a direct result of his playing with much better linemates, and how much was based on his talent alone? Couldn’t Carcillo possibly score 20+ goals with Briere and Leino?
I agree that Versteeg isn’t bad value, and he would not be at the top of my tradebait list, if for no other reason than the team is weak at the wing anyway. But you said it would be tough to replace him – it would not. That was my only point. (And I forgot Vinny Prospal from that list, BTW.)
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 19, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
how much of Hartnell’s ‘scoring’ a direct result of his playing with much better linemates, and how much was based on his talent alone? Couldn’t Carcillo possibly score 20+ goals with Briere and Leino?
I can look into Hartnell later, but his scoring has been roughly the same since his last years in Nashville.
I honestly have no idea who his linemates there were, so I have no way of evaluating that fact. My contention that you coudl put ME on the line with Briere and Leino and I might pot 20+ goals still stands.
And I would probably fall down just as much, for those who like that.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 19, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
what the hell
there not even comparible .. versteeg is a third liner at best .. and not a good one .. carter is a line one player and 40 goal scorer
I wouldn’t have minded Turco but i wouldn’t have called it a fix to our never ending goalie carousel. Leighton took us further than anyone else not named Hextall in my life-time I am willing to give him a full year as the man.
If this fails we can also get Nabokov cheap next year when he wants back into the NHL.
by chrislanci
Eric T. posted that in the Fly By today. Pretty good call by Chris…
And he’s not wrong. Still.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 19, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Carle, acquire Nabokov for a few years. Cap space is acquired. Possible negatives are negated because it’s the islanders, and I don’t see Carle hurting us
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:40 PM EDT reply actions
Would you rather give up Carle or Steeg?
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Me personally, Steeg. Not because I dislike him or anything, but mostly because I worry about Pronger and Kimmo’s age and future injuries.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Which is why I don’t think they will give up Carle. Steeg is the perfect guy for this deal. Now you can use that saved cap to sign Leino. Leino > Steeg. Nabby > whoever else is going to play goalie other than Bob. Carle > Steeg
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Carle first. Steeg is going later if he doesn’t have a full year, and a shitty coach that doesn’t know how to use him effectively. It doesnt make sense to trade a 1st and a 3rd for him, use him, then trade him again. youre not going to get the same compensation
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
a shitty coach
I lost you there. There is a big difference between a good coach making some shitty decisions and a shitty coach. No shitty coach has ever won the Cup.
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s whatever your interpretation of Lavvy is. He made bad decisions consistently for half of a year. In Carolina, he won a cup, then had 2 meh seasons in the Southeast. Following season, he got fired.
In philly he got to the Cup, then had a meh season. I don’t see him correcting his mistakes
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
This season was not a “meh” season. Did you see how Boston played without Chara? They were a different team. Did you see how we played without Pronger? We were a different team.
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
So because we played without one player, we lost that series?
Pronger is crucial to our defense. He plays, that team wins despite their coach
He doesn’t play, that team can win if their coach is up to the task, which he certainly was not. The Flyers were a deep team, and couldn’t beaten Boston in 7 even without Pronger, but Lavvy simply wasn’t on top of his game.
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
could’ve*
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand what your getting at?
by OrangeNblacK on May 19, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Pronger wasn’t the reason why the Flyers lost in a sweep
Bad coaching was
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, Tim Thomas.
Aristotle was not Belgian, the principle of Buddhism is not "every man for himself", and the London Underground is not a political movement.
I’m with CCB on this. Thomas played well, but that is not why we were swept. Soft goaltending gave Boston momentum, but that was exacerbated by the fact that Lavvy not only did not use matchups to his advantage, but insisted on having the team play the aggressor and let Boston settle into their comfort zone, of sitting back in the 1-3-1 and counter attacking.
How do you replace Carle on the back-end? You’re either looking at someone of comparable or greater contract to fill in the top 5, or weakening the third pair. As is, Prongs and Kimmo are still playing too many minutes.
Put more faith in Syrvet or Gustavsson
Just notch it up as another coaching mistake
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
So, Barty-DSOD-Gus as our 5-6-7? I’m all for giving the youth their shot, but that gives you so little flexibility in terms of depth. It’s definitely a large step down in quality.
and a large increase in goalie quality, if you believe that Bob is of low quality.
In my opinion, the Flyers are at the peak of talent in relation to cap space, that is for having no cap space, they are the most talented team in the NHL
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This past year, anyway. This year, not so much
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends on your expectations for Nabokov. Mine are that he will come in as a back-up, and even if he’s not, the step up in goal is not that large.
Does anyone actually believe Bob is of low quality? Where is the basis for this?
If you are bringing in Nabokov as a backup, I don’t even see a point in trading Carle for him, unless you are trading Carle for prospects and or picks
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s kinda my point. But you’re saying the difference between trading for him and not reading for him is, say, 20 regular season games.
Anyway, you’re basically trading for a competition between two goalies to see who earns the start, and a mentor for a young kid. It’s impossible to tell whether Nabokov would take over the number 1.
Someone has to go, and I for one think Carle should be going to refill the farm system, bring in Nabokov and sign an FA defenseman that can play solid minutes and anchor the 3rd D pairing
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Why does someone have to go?
2) I don’t think trading Carle is going to refill your farm system all by itself.
3) “Sign[ing] an FA defenseman that can play solid minutes and anchor the 3rd D pairing” is easier said than done, and to get a guy of any quality, you’re coming near Carle’s contract numbers anyway.
I get your point: subtract a little from the D corp for a more solid 1-2 in goal and some picks. I just don’t think the upgrade in the farm and goalie will be enough to warrant this particular move.
Someone has to go because as things currently stand, there’s a huge investment in your D core, a goalie situation that won’t go away, and clamoring for a star center to be moved.
I think the front office wants to make a move, and moving Carle will cause the least amount of damage, compared to trading someone like Carter or Versteeg (Versteeg is really dead even with Carle, but I don’t think Versteeg was utilized properly)
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather keep Carle to help make the decline/retirement of Pronger and Timonen a little less painful. You can never have too many solid young defensemen.
When Timonen retires, the cap space we will be getting back will make finding a replacement for him painless
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 19, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a good point, but it might be hard to find someone of Kimmo’s quality on the free agent market. I’m sure he’ll be extended, but Alex Edler’s contract is up. Would be amazing if we could land him. Won’t happen though.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, Steve Montador to take Carle’s minutes. Trade Carle for Nabby and save Steeg for a future deal. Montador can be signed for under 2 mil. and for 3 years.
by musicheretic on May 19, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh and a 2nd or 3rd rounder would be essential
by musicheretic on May 19, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I highly disagree that you get a large increase in goalie quality.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 19, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
And you are left with a 36 year old Pronger, a 36 year old Timonen, Coburn, Meszaros, and…
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 19, 2011 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
What if Nabokov doesn't want to mentor Bob?
Can’t rule that out. Many elite athletes don’t want to groom their replacement (cf. some NFL QBs). Curiously, Boosh would be a better option then, since no one argues that his head isn’t on straight (it is just whether his talent is there).
I have no idea what is in Nabokov’s head, obviously, but it is not clear he knows either.
Set your JVR in 2011.
Then we call him Brett Favre and tell him to enjoy Long Island.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I agree that we can’t know, and they’d need to investigate it.
However, I’m more inclined to believe that Nabby might be willing to mentor Bob as opposed to Bryzgalov, because I have stronger doubts about Bryzgalov’s wilingness or ability to do so.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 19, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If the trading piece is Hartnell? Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
If the trading piece is Versteeg? Probably a yes, but certainly a less emphatic one. Versteeg can play 2 ways, is on a good contract, and has his best years still ahead of him. While trading Versteeg is nowhere near as terrible as trading Carter/Richards to make room for Vokoun/Bryzgalov, I am still not sure how great of a move that would be for a goalie who has not played in the NHL since May 2010.
But for someone like Hartnell? Yes.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
If we could trade Hartnell straight up for Nabokov...
Here’s a lineup I’d love to see. Put Versteeg and Jokinen on Briere’s line as they’re skilled enough to keep up with him but are still somewhat defensively responsible. Bring back Upshall to play with Richards and Nodl to create a checking line that can chip in with some goals. Could also remove Jokinen and get more of a power forward type for 2-3 million.
This would leave us with almost $2 million as a cushion in the event of injuries.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
Kris Versteeg ($3.083m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Jussi Jokinen ($3.000m)
Scottie Upshall ($3.000m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.850m)
Darroll Powe ($0.750m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
/ Phantoms Player ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
/ UFA D-Man ($1.000m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Evgeni Nabokov ($0.570m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,972,488; BONUSES: $1,700,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,727,512
Cheap, yes....but you may get what you pay for
I know last year was a full-on debacle for the guy, but he looked bad in the KHL and (admittedly without playing much this year) not very good ether (again with a disclaimer – behind a so-so Russian team) at the IIHF championships. I think before we fall in love with the reduced price tag we consider that we might only get a 570K goalie rather than a 4-5 million dollar goalie at a greatly reduced rate. If he’s there for mentoring and 30-40% of the starts, it may be OK if our D is healthy and plays up to their skill level, but if he plays at a Turco-esque level (circa this past season), it may be we could find better options than Nabby even at that price.
No game thread?
I guess I’ll just post here that the crowd at St. Pete Times Forum is really pleased with the start of this game.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Ville Leino ($3.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)
Joel Ward ($1.800m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
Darroll Powe ($0.725m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.850m)
Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Steve Montador ($1.900m)
/ Danny Syvret ($0.650m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Yevgeni Nabakov ($0.570m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,959,988; BONUSES: $1,825,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $40,012
In hindsight and perhaps even in foresight, it’s clear that the Bolts won the hell out of that deal
Check back in 2-3 years. Wishart had a strong finish for the Islanders after MacDonald took himself out of the lineup due to injury. That was without him having a partner who might have hidden any weaknesses. His most common pairings were Hamonic (a rookie 20 year old that wasn’t supposed to be in the NHL this year) Jack Hillen (who started the season as a healthy scratch for the Islanders) and Milan Jurcina (whose been given up on by 3 teams so far).
They traded a 41 year old goalie in the last year of his contract who might retire after the season, for a 22 year old former first rounder who was a +5 in 20 games for the Islanders along with 5 points. Who was only bumped out in TB because they drafted Hedman.
If the Isles were going to make the playoffs, then yea, this trade sucks. But even with Rollie they weren’t making the playoffs, so what would have been the point of keeping him on the team? And look at the only other trade in the NHL this year involving Legit #1 goalies, you have Craig Anderson being traded to Ottawa for Elliot. The goalie market just isn’t what it used to be.
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Yeah, I don't agree with the Roloson/Wishart trade evaluation
Roloson was an expiring asset, a UFA at age 41. If the Lightning don’t win two rounds, nobody even thinks of making that kind of eval that the Isles lost, much less lost the hell out of that deal. It was a fair trade then, is a fair trade now.
I don’t think what they got for Roli even enters the equation here, unless it’s: “We want another prospect like we got for the last one” rather than “we’ll settle for a 7th round pick.” Which would be bold, but I guess nothing begged, nothing gained.
Personally I’d be THRILLED to get another Wishart for Nabokov, with the minor exception that it would “help” a division rival (although with his age and past year, it’s uncertain how much help that’d really be…it could end up being the kind of gift you send your ex-wife).
Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A doughnut with no hole is Frans Nielsen.
btw, I think you guys are way overrating the value of Nabokov
Unless you guys just want to dump Versteg/Hartnell because of Cap reasons, it’s more the Islanders MO lately to get either Draft Picks (which notably the Flyers are short on) or Prospects who are on the Cusp of being NHL ready (there’s a lot of openings at Bridgeport)
If I was Snow, I’d take Versteeg or Hartnell in a heart beat. Adding Versteeg who has a cup ring might be an important long term addition.
"Why don't we just move hockey fans from Winnipeg to Atlanta? Sounds easier"
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Thank you. Nabokov’s trade value is nowhere near Hartnell/Versteeg.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 19, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not in a vaccuum
But to the Flyers it might be. You guys are likely going to need to shed salary just to fill a roster and make it under the cap next year as it is.
I’d rather a player who would be a more long term help than I imagine either of those two being, but I don’t think it’s out of hand to see it happening. Getting a top 5 goalie from two season ago for 570K is insanely valuable, especially to a team with serious cap issues.
I don’t think it’s out of hand to see it happening either, but that doesn’t mean it’s a fair trade.
I also disagree that the Flyers need to shed salary just to fill a roster (I have no problem filling one at $62.4 mil), but them wanting to re-sign Leino and get a #1 goalie will require shedding salary.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Well
if you got to resign Leino and got a #1 goalie, then it seems like it would be a fair trade, no?
Sure you can add about 3-5 players with the 3~ mill or so you would have left at 62.4, but that doesn’t seem like an ideal situation.
by afrosupreme on May 20, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t want Leino, especially not for $3 million. I also don’t think Nabokov is a #1 goalie. So, no, I don’t think that’s a fair trade.
Put Nodl, Powe, Read, and Marshall in your starting 18, and you have yourself a team. Is the downgrade from Leino to Read, O`Donnell to Marshall, and Boucher to Leighton steep? Not at all.
Is Leino to Matt Read a severe drop? I’m sure to some people. But it’s better than paying Leino $3 million. And my team would easily get rid of Leighton, saving $600k to go get a $1.5 million winger instead of Read.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes they are over valuing it big time. And people jumping on board with this, without anything else coming back but Nabby is frightening. You have a 1 year mentor to Bob, and some cap relief…not worth Steeg or Harts.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Matt Read making the team
I get the feeling that holmgren thinks Matt Read is making the team next year http://phillysportsdaily.com/flyers/2011/05/17/bright-flyers-could-use-a-revolution-of-toughness/
If he does it seems like he could play with Richards or G. That would make a current forward expendable (hartnell or versteeg).
by pelle on May 19, 2011 10:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
why even mess around with nabakov ? say he doesnt pan out (most likely what will happen) at the end of yet another season without a #1 goalie (since hextall) we will all be talking about how the flyers yet again didnt go out and get a true #1 and. nabakov has been a GREAT regular season goaltender, no one can debate that. but anyone that knows hockey knows that come playoff time he falters. EVERY year. just make the move for a proven #1 stud goalie.
Has Nabokov been a “GREAT” regular season goaltender?
Goalies with 9300 or more ES shots since 1998:
Goalie A: 0.924 ESS%, 0.913 Sv%
Goalie B: 0.921 ESS%, 0.911 Sv%
Goalie C: 0.918 ESS%, 0.909 Sv%
Over a 2000 shot-season, the difference between Goalie A and Goalie C is 12 even-strength goals per year. The difference between Goalie A and Goalie B is 6 even-strength goals per year.
Goalie A is Nabokov. Goalie B is Martin Biron. Goalie C is Jose Theodore.
At $570k per year, Nabokov is a steal. But I wouldn’t say he’s been “GREAT” by any stretch.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Why go back to 1998 Theodore won a Hart Trophy during the span, two time Vezina winner Tim Thomas was bouncing around Europe or whatever, and Bobrovsky was what 9 years old.
That’s where the ESS% data goes back to.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
IMO looking at goalies over such a long time span isn’t going to tell you much about future performance. Goalies are dominate one day and sent down the AHL as a salary dump the next, they are winning MVPs, Stanley Cups and Conn Smythes one season then backing up rookies the next. This is way I am hesitant to spend big money on a goalie for long term contract. Only the truly amazing Hall of Fame goaltenders can put together long consistent elite numbers over those time spans. Nabokov isn’t one of those guys but is certainly in the second tier if he can get back to form.
This is why I picked goalies with 9000 even-strength shots or more. Those guys spent a very long time in the NHL.
And I wasn’t trying to predict future performance, I was trying to refute that “nabakov has been a GREAT regular season goaltender, no one can debate that.”
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
GREAT is very subjective term I guess. He has been a top 10 goalie easy since 2008, probably no worse than 8th over that span.
Based on?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
His ESSv% rankings per year:
10: 9th
09: 26th
08: 24th
07: 15th
06: 38th
His total Sv% ranks per year:
10: 6th
09: 25th
08: 20th
07: 12th
06: 43rd
Seems quite average to me.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
totally agree. u cant put a stat or a number on everything. some goalies just make the big save or find ways to win the game and theres no stat for that. nabakov consistently was one of few goalies (brodeur, luongo, kipper) that played 70+ games a season and had better than just “average” numbers. throwing those names around def puts him in elite company. u have to be silly to say that he wasnt great for a few seasons.
totally agree. u cant put a stat or a number on everything.
But you can definitely put a stat or a number on “which goalie stops the most goals”. Or, in other words, “which goalie does his job better than most”, like you claim.
some goalies just make the big save or find ways to win the game and theres no stat for that.
You know why? Because “the big save” is entirely subjective. People who use these claims ignore all the deflating goals they give up, or the times they don’t make the big save. Further, “find ways to win”… gee, I don’t think a goalie is able to find a way to win. He needs his team to score some goals.
Don’t believe me? How about Brian Boucher standing on his head in overtime of Game One in the 2010 Eastern Conference Semifinals. He made the big save, multiple times, but didn’t win.
nabakov consistently was one of few goalies (brodeur, luongo, kipper) that played 70+ games a season and had better than just "average" numbers.
So now we are putting a stat or a number on it? Also, this just isn’t true. Three of the past five years, he had below “average” numbers. Kipprusoff is in the same boat. He’s a name without much success in the last five years.
throwing those names around def puts him in elite company.
Wow. “He’s elite because I put him in a group with elite names.” This basically says “I say he’s elite, therefore he’s elite.”
u have to be silly to say that he wasnt great for a few seasons.
I really don’t. He was great in 09-10. Every other year, he was average at best. And I have objective evidence, whereas you have opinion despite, surely, not watching more than 10 of his games any given year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone needs to write a post titled “Why You Can’t Just Make Stats Say Whatever You Want.” Maybe put a Gabe-esque prize on the board for someone that proves you wrong. Then, it can just be linked every time someone makes that argument.
It would be a lot easier.
Oh I love this idea.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 21, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
But you can definitely put a stat or a number on “which goalie stops the most goals”. Or, in other words, “which goalie does his job better than most”, like you claim.
-yes as in wins. some goalies just win games, no matter which stat you throw out there.
Don’t believe me? How about Brian Boucher standing on his head in overtime of Game One in the 2010 Eastern Conference Semifinals. He made the big save, multiple times, but didn’t win.
-maybe because the goalie he was playing against was the one who in the end made the big save and found a way to win
So now we are putting a stat or a number on it?
-i said, "u cant put a stat on " i feel like you also stuck your tongue out at me when you said that ..
Wow. “He’s elite because I put him in a group with elite names.” This basically says “I say he’s elite, therefore he’s elite.”
-in that certain stat, games played, and the names associated with that stat, would you not agree he was in pretty good company ?
I really don’t. He was great in 09-10. Every other year, he was average at best. And I have objective evidence, whereas you have opinion despite, surely, not watching more than 10 of his games any given year.
ok all my info is opinion, show me the subjective evidence of you being certain i surley have only seen nabakov play 10 or less games a year
maybe because the goalie he was playing against was the one who in the end made the big save and found a way to win
Maybe. Or maybe you’re grasping at straws, ignoring the fact that Thomas didn’t need to make any saves because the Bruins ran over the Flyers. But he got a win because his team destroyed the opposition, while Boucher got a loss – despite standing on his head – because his team played like they were a man down.
i said, "u cant put a stat on " i feel like you also stuck your tongue out at me when you said that ..
You’re going back and forth between “you can’t put a stat on it” and putting stats to it. Surely, you see the confusion.
in that certain stat, games played, and the names associated with that stat, would you not agree he was in pretty good company ?
In terms of total shots faced? Sure. But all that tells me is that his coaches continually thought he was better than the other guy on their team. I don’t need stats to tell me Evgeni Nabokov was a better option than Brian Boucher, or Vesa Toskala, or Thomas Greiss. None of that tells me he’s elite. It tells me he’s better than “average-to-below-average NHL backup.”
ok all my info is opinion, show me the subjective evidence of you being certain i surley have only seen nabakov play 10 or less games a year
I don’t have evidence to prove that, no. But I have evidence to prove your opinion wrong – and so does Eric. It doesn’t matter how many games you actually watched.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 23, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
some goalies just make the big save or find ways to win the game and theres no stat for that.
Isn’t won-loss record the stat for that? Not that I’m a fan of won-loss record, but isn’t that exactly what it purports to measure?
In his five post-lockout years, Nabokov was 172-121 (58.7% wins). The backup goalies for the Sharks in those years were 76-41 (65.0% wins). Are you sure he really found ways to win the game, and didn’t just play average behind some very good teams that found ways to win the game for him?
u have to be silly to say that he wasnt great for a few seasons.
He was, but those seasons were 2001-2004, when he had a .928 even strength save percentage. He’s been no better than average since the lockout, when his even strength save percentage has been .920.
Isn’t won-loss record the stat for that? Not that I’m a fan of won-loss record, but isn’t that exactly what it purports to measure?
In his five post-lockout years, Nabokov was 172-121 (58.7% wins). The backup goalies for the Sharks in those years were 76-41 (65.0% wins). Are you sure he really found ways to win the game, and didn’t just play average behind some very good teams that found ways to win the game for him?
-no, but are you sure that the team didnt play better when the backup was in because they werent as confident with him in net ? like i said, you cant put a stat on everything, theres no way to know that.
He was, but those seasons were 2001-2004, when he had a .928 even strength save percentage. He’s been no better than average since the lockout, when his even strength save percentage has been .920.
-well then there you go, he was great a few seasons and you just proved it. i didnt say when, but thanks for looking up the numbers for me.
I don’t think Geoff would dispute that Nabokov was at one time a great goalie. But if you have to look back to 2001-2004 to find a time when he was better than average, I don’t see how that argues in his favor.
And if your argument is all about the guy who does what he needs to do to get wins, wouldn’t you rather have the scrubby backup goalie whose mere presence makes the skaters play better and win more? I just don’t see how you can create a self-consistent argument that has you preferring a goalie who has a mediocre save percentage and wins fewer games than his backups.
I think it’s time to re-evaluate your position when your reason for signing a guy comes down to “well he was good seven years ago” and “he’s just a winner, but his team plays worse in front of him than they do with the backups and therefore the team doesn’t win.”
by Eric T. on May 21, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think Geoff would dispute that Nabokov was at one time a great goalie.
I, in fact, do not. And I said as much:
He was great in 09-10. Every other year, he was average at best.
.
.
.
But if you have to look back to 2001-2004 to find a time when he was better than average,
And I didn’t look that far back. Is that a fault of mine? Maybe, but pre-lockout, pre-salary cap hockey doesn’t enter into my thought processes as it a) was seven years ago; and b) was a completely different game back then.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 23, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i actually was 100% against signing him -
“why even mess around with nabakov ? say he doesnt pan out (most likely what will happen) at the end of yet another season without a #1 goalie (since hextall) we will all be talking about how the flyers yet again didnt go out and get a true #1 "
but i was just trying to prove a point that at one time in his career he was a very good regular season goalie that never had success in the playoffs
No way should the Flyers even consider trading Carle for Nabokov. Pronger isn’t getting any younger and is coming off back surgery and Kimmo is right up there with him as far as age. They need to hang onto their young D core and despite not having a good playoffs, Carle had a good season and is a solid defenseman.
Hartnell is a valuable piece of this team and should be kept around. And anyway, I don’t see him waiving his NTC to be sent to the Islanders. I’ll admit I was less than thrilled with what we saw out of Versteeg after he got here. But after hearing about the sports hernia and factoring in the switch to a new team and new style, I’m willing to reserve judgment on him until seeing him play more. Yeah, giving up either Hartnell or Steeg for Nabokov would bring in the supposed “#1 goalie” everyone is clamoring for but like others have said, it leaves us with less on-ice talent.
If Snow trades Nabokov it would have to be for a roster player. So I’m not sure who the Flyers could part with in return that would be a “win”. Nodl? Powe? Shelley absolutely but I think the world will end Saturday before that trade would really happen.
What about trading the Rights to Ville Leino for Nabokov? They get the exclusive negotiating rights Leino can get tons of ice time up there and his playmaking abilities would pair nicely with Tavares. They might have to over pay for him like we did with Hartnell but they can probably get him. They need to do something bold like that to get out of the basement.
I can’t see NYI doing this. They have a valuable bargaining chip in Nabokov at a dirt-cheap salary. I’m sure the Flyers won’t be the only team inquiring about him. I can’t see the Islanders just giving Nabokov up for a potential to sign someone. If I’m them, I want something much more concrete and guaranteed.
by FooFighter1124 on May 20, 2011 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Snow might be over valuing Nabokov here. Nabokov didn’t get a lot of offers last offseason. He hasn’t played in the NHL in a full season and was horrible in the KHL. I am also assuming they wanted to deal him at the deadline and didn’t get any offers for him then either. A lot more has been given up for the rights to negotiate with players Homer pretty much invented this move.
Nabokov didn’t get a lot of offers last offseason.
I thought this was mostly because Nabokov was overvaluing himself too much and asking for too much money. You may be right, but I just have a hard time believing that Nabby at such a low price isn’t going to draw enough interest and that the best NYI could do is just get negotiation rights in return for him. I think we’d have to give up something else too.
by FooFighter1124 on May 20, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The rights to Leino is the closest thing in value I’ve seen presented. Good job thinking outside the box Chris. I’m assuming since it’s within division it would take a pick/middling prospect too.
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Thanks for the complement. Probably something conditional based on how well the team goes, how many starts Nabokov gets or if Leino is able to be signed or not. I don’t think the Islanders are in a position to worry about trading in the division. They need to do whatever it takes to improve their team’s talent and more importantly the organizations loser image. Bringing in Leino would be a nice addition a guy who has been to the playoffs etc.
I would have said Carcillo’s rights instead, buy yeah, this sorta thing. Sign Kanopka, then trade Shelley back to the Rangers or waive him to ADK and make him Rinaldo’s roommate for the next two years. If the Flyers hope to ever get something useful out of Rinaldo they need Shelley to mentor him. It clears some cap space, gives us a better 4th liner/ faceoff man, and a backup for Bob.
It would be awesome if they did this and had a verbal agreement with Ville so he refused to sign with the Isles and then signed back with the flyers. Extremely shady, but hillarious.
by KornontheKobb on May 20, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of Versteeg...
Did anyone catch Homer’s convo with Lisa Hilary on CSN where he said the Flyers forwards started playing too “Meadowlark Lemon”-like after around the 60-game mark? I wanted to yell at the TV, “Well you were the one that traded for Versteeg, weren’t you?” To me, Versteeg was probably the biggest offender of trying to do too much with the puck and not just dumping it in and forechecking. It seemed like all of Homer’s complaints about the forwards in general could be applied directly to Versteeg, which made it all the more interesting that Homer gave up so much to get him…
Leighton for Nabokov?
Is it just me, or is offering Leighton for Nabokov a no-brainer – and a win-win for both organizations?
I don’t see why NYI would want Leighton.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 20, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Why wouldn’t Snow have just claimed Leighton off Waivers last year? It’s not as though he has to worry about the Cap, or if anyone would have held it against him to claim another goalie.
I don’t think Snow is interested in Leighton, and probably thinks that if he wants him he might be able to claim him this season off waivers.
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But you can definitely put a stat or a number on "which goalie stops the most goals". Or, in other words, "which goalie does his job better than most", like you claim.
-yes as in wins. some goalies just win games, no matter which stat you throw out there.
Don’t believe me? How about Brian Boucher standing on his head in overtime of Game One in the 2010 Eastern Conference Semifinals. He made the big save, multiple times, but didn’t win.
-maybe because the goalie he was playing against was the one who in the end made the big save and found a way to win
So now we are putting a stat or a number on it?
-i said, “u cant put a stat on ” i feel like you also stuck your tongue out at me when you said that ..
Wow. "He’s elite because I put him in a group with elite names." This basically says "I say he’s elite, therefore he’s elite."
-in that certain stat, games played, and the names associated with that stat, would you not agree he was in pretty good company ?
I really don’t. He was great in 09-10. Every other year, he was average at best. And I have objective evidence, whereas you have opinion despite, surely, not watching more than 10 of his games any given year.
ok all my info is opinion, show me the subjective evidence of you being certain i surley have only seen nabakov play 10 or less games a year
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