Paul Holmgren interview yields answers, more questions
by Travis Hughes on May 30, 2011 1:18 PM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Commentary
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Many times this offseason, we've pushed the idea that the acquisition of a top-notch, big-name goaltender by the Philadelphia Flyers will actually result in a net loss for the team, rather than the Cup-winning gain many seem to think it would create.
We believe this for a variety of reasons, but it basically boils down to two things: 1) the added value of an expensive goaltender like Ilya Bryzgalov or Tomas Vokoun is negligible when balanced by the fact that you'd have to rid at least $5 million, likely in the form of Jeff Carter and 2) who knows what you're going to get out of a guy in the postseason.
Look at Bryzgalov last season. All that money, all that stellar regular season play, atrocious postseason. It's a toss-up come playoff time, no matter who's in goal.
One thing, though: if the Flyers can add a goaltender without getting rid of a major piece like Carter, it changes things drastically. In an interview with Chuck Gormley of the Courier-Post (who's been killing it lately), Holmgren indicated that he doesn't want to break up the core at all and that he'll trim from the bottom, not the top, to get a goalie.
Here's Gormley:
In order to add a goalie and keep the Flyers' core intact, Holmgren will need to trim salary from the bottom of his roster and not the top. If he places Ian Laperriere's $1.16 million cap hit onto long-term injury and keeps goaltender Michael Leighton ($1.55 million) and defenseman Matt Walker ($1.7 million) in the minors, he'll pick up a total of $4.4 million of cap space.
Holmgren said the Flyers will make qualifying offers to restricted free agents Dan Carcillo, Darroll Powe and Andreas Nodl and would like to keep all three. But if Powe gets a raise from $725,000 to $1 million and Nodl jumps from $850,000 to $1 million, the club might be forced to trade Carcillo for a draft pick.
Here's the rub: it sounds like Holmgren wants to keep everybody, but still add a goaltender. That just ain't gonna work. If he keeps Carcillo, Powe and Nodl without trading away Carter (or Kris Versteeg or Scott Hartnell or somebody), he's simply not going to have the money to get a big-name goaltender. It doesn't add up.
That's what makes me believe that he's going after Evgeni Nabokov. It's the only option that fits into the puzzle here. Cheap compared to the rest, presumably available, fits the bill well since he won't get a long contract, allowing Bobrovsky to fill in as ready.
Most importantly, he's not going to cost you any big pieces on your roster, so the gain you get from him doesn't wind up hurting you in the end. Is he on the same level as one of the shiny $4 million goalies on the market?
No, he's more like a Hyundai compared to a Lexus. But there's nothing wrong with a Hyundai. It gets you around and doesn't hurt the bank account, and it doesn't look half bad either.
Other news from Homer's interview:
- The Flyers are still about $1 million apart from Ville Leino in contract negotiations. Given that they apparently want to keep the core in tact, it seems like they'd have to get him for the $2.5 million they want to spend, not the $3.5 million Leino wants, but we'll see what happens.
Honestly, he was great in the playoffs last year and all of that, but he's replaceable. He put up 50-something points while playing just about all of his time in easy offensive-minded assignments -- 62 percent of his shifts started in the offensive end of the ice, highest on the team by far. Mike Richards put up 60-something and played all over the place, with just 46.8 percent of his shifts starting in the offensive zone.
Not to mention that world-renowed chemistry with Danny Briere and Scott Hartnell was definitely not at the same level in all of 2010-11. Leino's not worth overpaying.
- Qualifying offers to Nodl, Powe and Carcillo mean they're basically all staying around.
- If they don't sign Leino, Gormley says the team could lean on Matt Read, the kid they signed out of Bemidji State. He was impressive in a short period of time with the Phantoms (we saw his pro debut during our trip to Glens Falls in March), but to think that he can step in that quickly and play a full NHL season seems silly to expect out of him.
He's got the talent to be good, and I'm not saying he can't step in and play in the NHL, but let's see what he does in rookie camp first. If they really expect him to replace Leino, let's hope he's not the only option.
- Gormley also indicated that Matt Carle's contract could be one to go. I haven't really thought too much about that potential move, so I'll just leave it at that and go have a burger.
Enjoy your Memorial Day and remember why we're off today.
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i love the idea of getting nabokov, it would be good for the team and great for bobrovsky in particular. i think leino and carle should go, bring up some phantoms guys
Danny Fist-Pump Strikes Again!!!
by MeszarosKillsPeople on May 30, 2011 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
Leino AND Carle? For Nabokov? What are you doing with that $4 million in cap space then?
You want a top-5 of: Pronger (36 years old), Timonen (36 years old), Meszaros, Coburn, O`Donnell (39 years old)? With only Gustafsson, Bartulis, and Marshall as the 6, 7, 8? That’s a really thin, fragile defense corps.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on May 30, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
DSOD!
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Hmmm, anybody else notice they didn’t mention if he was going to get a qualifying offer?
But that isn’t really an indicator of anything, since Gormley probably only asked about the guys who were on the NHL roster all year.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 30, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of people like him. I don’t want him, but a lot of people do.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on May 30, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Steve Montador can be gotten for under 2 mil., solid guy more mobile than SOD, he is the guy I believe they should be looking to add to the blue line. And that being said Carle stays. And as far as Leino is concerned would like to see him stay, but if they can’t reach agreement than I won’t be heartbroken to see him go.
Pronger(36) Carle(27)
Kimmo(36) Coburn(26)
Montador(31) Mezz(26)
Bart, Gus, Marshall
This seems pretty damn solid to me. I think Nabby would make a nice bargain basement addition. I wouldn’t mind maybe seeing Asham picked as well.
by musicheretic on May 30, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
So you’re proposing something like this?
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)
Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m)
Andreas Nodl ($0.950m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Darroll Powe ($0.847m) / Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Matt Carle ($3.437m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Steve Montador ($1.550m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m) / Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Evgeni Nabokov ($0.570m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,399,488; BONUSES: $1,825,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $512
by Eric T. on May 30, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I came up with this assuming Carter goes to Toronto, this is only assumption.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m)
Jeff Halpern ($0.600m) / Maxime Talbot ($0.850m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.720m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Darroll Powe ($1.025m)
/ Ryan Craig ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Carl Gunnarsson ($1.350m)
/ Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Johan Hedberg ($1.500m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,824,761; BONUSES: $2,550,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $575,239
Qualifying offers to Nodl, Powe and Carcillo mean they’re basically all staying around.
Of the three, I think Powe is the most important to keep around. His work with Betts as a penalty killer and defensively responsible 4th line guy is an important asset. It would be a shame if Nodl didn’t come back because we saw signs of good stuff from him but wasn’t able to keep his play consistent. Don’t see the point in keeping Carcillo around.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
I see no point in keeping Carcillo around. If Homer was that inclined to have him on the roster than Shelley should have never gotten the contract that he did last year. Can they stash him in the AHL? I’d rather have Carcillo over Shelley any day of the week but one is under contract and the other doesn’t have to be.
I’d be ok with Nabby but I’d prefer they just give Bob the reigns, much like they did this year and see how it plays out.
I hate the idea of trading Carle.
Lastly, I’m cool with letting Leino walk.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I'd rather have Shelley over Carcillo
Shelley was trying his absolute hardest to calm Carcillo down during the game he got his suspension for.
But I agree with the rest of what you said.
Cory Geiger asks Paterno if talk about his future bothers him. "You bother me," Joe tells Geiger.
I think letting Leino walk is a mistake, thanks to the stupidity of the Versteeg deal it’s probably gonna happen, he did nothing for our playoff push and isn’t as talented defensively as Leino. Leino also had his groin/stomach issue this season if I remember.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 3:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and [Versteeg] isn’t as talented defensively as Leino
That’s not how I see things at all. It’s not what my eyes tell me, and it’s certainly not what the coaches seem to think.
Ville Leino was the single most sheltered player on the team — on the rare occasions when Lavvy felt he had to put Hartnell and Briere out for a defensive zone faceoff, he often replaced Leino with someone more defensively responsible. In contrast, he trusted Versteeg to play on Richards line, which was used often matched up against the opponents’ top scorers. Leino’s Corsi Rel QoC was 0.138, while Versteeg’s was 0.860.
I haven’t seen anything that suggests Leino is more defensively talented.
Maybe but two major flaws I see with Versteeg, he had no chemistry with Richards which is partially why Richards had a low point total in the playoffs. And Versteeg disappears at times completely, Leino’s also constantly playing at 110% energy, a players heart needs to be in the game, and I personally don’t see how anyone can justify saying the Flyers are better off with Versteeg on the roster instead of Leino.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 3:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Both Versteeg and Richards were injured. Aside from that, Versteeg is a better all-around player than Leino. I’m not saying we should just dump Leino without trying to resign him but he isn’t worth what he supposedly wants.
Of Philadelphia:
I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.
Someone I would rather have than Leino; Zherdev. But I digress.
Of Philadelphia:
I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.
isn’t as talented defensively as Leino
No.
Of Philadelphia:
I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.
by phinally on May 30, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Leino doesn’t play defense. A parking cone is more talented defensively than Leino.
I was on Steeg pretty vocally since they got him but considering he was hurt I am all for seeing what he can do for the team next year. Given the option of Steeg over Leino, I’d rather Leino but it honestly doesn’t seem like an option, Steeg is here. Leino might not be.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I really don't like the idea of getting rid of Carle
Sure he had a bad post-season, but so did the rest of our defense.
Cory Geiger asks Paterno if talk about his future bothers him. "You bother me," Joe tells Geiger.
Trading him early in the summer would be a bad idea, I would like to see some patience from the front office before trading a d member. Just so they know for sure they will have a younger d man come up and step up. I like the guys they have down there, and I hope they offer svyret a qualifying offer.
-bob
by Rrainone on May 30, 2011 6:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m not entirely sure Carcillo will actually be qualified. Qualifying offers don’t come out until June 25th, so since that’s almost a month away, he wouldn’t want it to get out that he’s not going to qualify Carcillo and he’s planning to let him become a UFA. He’d be showing his hand way too early if he let Carcillo know now that there was no chance of him coming back, Homer needs to keep his options open for the next 4 weeks until the offers actually happen.
Let Leino and Carcillo walk. Waive Walker, Leighton and Shelley. Add in the LTIR from Lappy’s contract
Bring up Reed, Holmstrom, Sestito, Syrvet. Sign a defenseman similar in skill to O’Donnell, but younger
Finally, bring in Nabokov
case solved, lets start next season
do you poop on parties professionally, or do you just do it as a hobby?
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 30, 2011 3:08 PM EDT reply actions
Still other teams could fuck us over by claiming one if those three guys. If Walker, Leighton, or Shelley were to get claimed doesn’t Philadelphia have to pay half that salary for the year?
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sign a defenseman similar in skill to O’Donnell, but younger
ummm so you get a young slow defenseman who can’t make an outlet pass to save their life? Awesome idea there.
http://restorations.bandcamp.com/
wow, you’re going to nitpick, when you get the general idea
do you poop on parties professionally, or do you just do it as a hobby?
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 30, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
O’Donnell and Syvret are not under contract for next season. Why are people talking like either or both of them will be on the team? I expect (and want) neither.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Syvret on a 2 way deal would be ok so we can call him up and send him down as we please.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 3:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He’d still be waiver eligible, since 2 way deals don’t prevent that. He could be re-entry waiver exempt, depending on his salary, so he couldn’t be claimed for half price like the others; but he’d still need to clear waivers the first time he gets sent down.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 30, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah and in that case he’s still not a huge loss if claimed.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 4:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not that I agree with it but I think Carter being traded to Toronto is our best option. I love Carter but if you can add a young d man in Gunnarsson along with Kadri and Aulie or Colborne I dont dee how you can justify not making a trade that revitalizes our horrific farm system.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 3:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Kadri is another Center though. And what could his potential be that Carter doesnt already bring now. Its like delaying for something that may not even be as good. But, I would take Gunnar, Kadri, and a 1st for Carter, and I’m a carter supporter.
Samesis
Agreed I’m a Carter fan as well, but Kadri has upside to be a career 30-30 player and his lower salary would allow us to free up space for a goalie like Bryzgalov or Vokoun. Gunnarsson slog with Colborne or Aulie or a 1st rounder is tough to pass up. Kadri and Gunnarsson make the roster obviously and of we were to land Colborne he could potentially play as well but I doubt Toronto would part with their top two prospects so probably Kadri and s 1st. And that pick helps revitalizes our farm system a little.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 3:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah. Anytime you get 2 “supposed” top 20 prospects and an early 1st rounder, you should always look into it. Carter is a great player, but at best he’s a 45 goal scorer, 80 point guy. Kadri has the potential to be that too, plus a top defensive prospect to complement Gus, and a 1st rounder would be nice.
Samesis
I wouldn’t say it revitalizes it. We’d need to trade like 3 Carters to revitalize it. Plus Kadri would probably jump right to the Flyers and depending on whether the Flyers got a 1st rounder or another prospect your looking at adding one guy to pipeline who will be ready in 1-3 years. Not really restocking the farm there. As much as I would like to see the Flyers restock the farm it would take a change in philosophy rather than a single trade to make that happen.
What can't Giroux do?
Well no but taking one Carter and acquiring a young d man in Gunnarsson along with a 1st round pick which we never have and either Kadri or Colborne is a good start to revitalizing it, I mean right now I can’t exactly say the Flyers have any draft picks or prospects in the system that I can’t wait to see in the NHL, since Matt Read is probably my favorite prospect that just shows how sad our farm system is.
Its not a good start, though is what I’m saying. It’s a one time thing. A good start would be not trading the next few first and second round picks. Rebuilding the farm system requires a philosophic change in the way Paul Holmgren builds a team, not trading your best goal scorer who is reasonably paid for the next 11 years.
What can't Giroux do?
When we have a rising JVR and 5 other players capable of putting up 20-30 goals I’m ok with trading away Carter, I like Carter but I don’t see how acquiring a guy potentially as good in the long run as Kadri along with a 1st round pick and Gunnarsson or Aulie is a win for both sides, they get the top center they want and we get good solid young talent back.
The problem being the word potential. Generally speaking a known commodity is better than an unknown. Not too mention the fact that the Flyers are trying to win now. If you take away Jeff’s 35 goals you have to replace them. Kadri ain’t doing that this year. Not too mention the Flyers are losing Zherdev’s goals and probably Leino’s goal as well. Next year’s edition of the Flyers probably won’t be able to roll a deep a forward corps as this years trading Carter compounds that problem.
What can't Giroux do?
True but as much as Carter dominates in score sheet, he’s not exactly a clutch player, every time we are down one or need a comeback he doesn’t show up. He scores a lot of his goals in blowouts. I mean don’t get me wrong his shot is fierce and very good and a goal is a still a goal, but WHEN in the game someone scores is important to an extent, and Carter injuries or otherwise has been invisible in the past two playoffs.
I think that the only way I’m okay with a Carter to Toronto trade is if Luke Schenn is coming the other way. Honestly, we still need a winger, which Toronto can’t provide.
I like Nikolai Kulemin but obviously add a prospect and a pick for Carter.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Trade Carle and sign another D-man. Carles nice, but not $3.6 mill nice. You could get better production from a guy at $2 mill. Also, WTF’s with Leino. For what he’s asking for, I might start seeing him at the Kosher Deli by my house.
Samesis
You could get better production from a guy at $2 mill.
First of all, I don’t believe this is remotely true. Second of all, if it is true, then why would anyone give us anything for Carle — wouldn’t they prefer to get a higher-producing $2M player themselves instead of giving something up for the lesser-producing $3.6M player?
he’s worth considerably more than that, though
do you poop on parties professionally, or do you just do it as a hobby?
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 30, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
If a $2M free agent can produce better than a $3.6M player as you suggest, then why would anyone give up a 2nd or a 3rd for the 3.6M player?
Either you believe Carle produces better than the $2M players or you’re going to have to pay someone (in draft picks or prospects or something) to get them to take Carle off your hands.
No one can see keeping Carcillo around?
really? have you looked at the flyers record with him playing vs him out of the lineup? it’s absurd how much better they are with him.
http://restorations.bandcamp.com/
I want to keep Carcillo, but I also want them to get some legit wingers for Richie. Carcillo is only effective in a top line, and is a waste on the 4th line. So unless they completely re-alter the lineups, then I wouldn’t care if he walked. Maybe a Richie, Carcillo, Giroux line; then JVR, Briere, Versteeg; and Hartnell, Carter, Leino. That way all 3 lines are more balanced.
Samesis
Your argument is weak. Have you looked at the Phils record when Jimmy Rollins scores? It’s crazy. There’s no correlation. By your theory, he should be a highly paid player for the Flyers, bc of their record under him!
Nice fail
do you poop on parties professionally, or do you just do it as a hobby?
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 30, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
where did I say Carcillo had to score? Of course the Phils record would be better if players are scoring. Scoring has ZERO to do with my statement and is still perfectly valid. nice try though.
http://restorations.bandcamp.com/
I didn’t say he had to score. You are saying that the Flyers record is pretty good when Carcillo is on the ice. I’m arguing that there is no substance behind that. There is no sound reasoning of why the record is what it is. It’s coincidence
Nice try though, misreading my statement to help your cause
do you poop on parties professionally, or do you just do it as a hobby?
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 30, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
His 8 minutes
Of Average Ice time obviously swung the game in the Flyers direction.
"Milbury said he was at the Winter Classic and he was getting heckled by an Islanders fan. He couldn’t understand why an Islanders fan would show up in an Islanders jersey at a non-Islanders game just to heckle him." My New Hero
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Technically he draws more than he takes. Unless that wasn’t true last year..
Of Philadelphia:
I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.
I’d like to keep Carcillo, but only at Shellley’s expense.
by philiafan14364 on May 30, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
and where in my statement did I say or even hint that Carcillo should be the highest paid player on the team?
http://restorations.bandcamp.com/
well, just look at the Flyers record with Carcillo starting! It must be Carcillo, he’s that good! He should be paid according to the team’s record when he’s on the ice!
do you poop on parties professionally, or do you just do it as a hobby?
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 30, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Matt Carle
Why on Earth would you want to get rid of him. Get rid of Timonen if you want to move a defensive contract, simple because of his age and his eight million dollars.
I love them both, but Carle is definitely the heir apparent to Timo. Why would you move the similar, younger, cheaper player? In any scenario?
But considering how bad their defense is without Pronger, they may as well blow it up and bring in some better talent. is still extremely bitter over that implosion.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
You’re underrating Kimmo. He shouldn’t be compared to anyone but Pronger.
Of Philadelphia:
I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.
He’s not underrating him. He’s just saying going forward moving Kimmo makes more sense because he’s exiting his prime and Carle is entering his. Then there’s the difference in salary. Kimmo would obviously be way harder to move because of the age, the salary, and what the Flyers would demand in return. Right now obviously Kimmo>Carle, but for how long will that be the case?
What can't Giroux do?
I think Kimmo>Carle will hold true for the remaining two years of Kimmo’s contract, personally. Kimmo’s intelligence and ability to read the play continue to hold weight, for me, and come next year hopefully his injuries from the playoffs this year will be healed. I can only speculate, but in my opinion, if Pronger had been healthy when Kimmo was getting pretty banged up in March, we could have allowed Kimmo to take at least a few days off and rest and be in better shape for the playoffs; but we couldn’t survive without both of them at the time.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 30, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d imagine Kimmo might always be the better player, but he does take up a giant chunk of our salary, and he can’t replace Pronger when it comes to this team scoring. He’s as expendable as anyone on this defense in that sense. Replace him with another 3 mil/year defenseman and you’ve got five million to spend on a legit scoring talent. Our defense will hold.
Oh, and a goalie, I guess we need one of those too. Use Leino’s money on that. How long is Hartnall here for? He should go. I don’t know where Briere ends up, but I really want to make sure we use Richards correctly this year, and not as a seventh defenseman.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I really want to make sure we use Richards correctly this year, and not as a seventh defenseman.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. This year his role was less defensive than in any previous year — weaker competition and more offensive zone starts. Moreover, I believe the defensive role of past years was the correct one for him, since it plays to his strengths as an elite two-way forward.
The only time I want Richards with a d man is on the PP, I have been lobbying for Richards to be with Timonen, Carle and Meszaros as our point men on the PP.
Erm, I don’t think anyone was talking about Richards literally playing a defense position; I think this was more about how much his role as a forward was about scoring and/or defending. But I could be wrong.
As for putting Richards on the point on the PP, I think that’s crazy. He was second on the team in PP points/60 this year and first each of the last two years. In fact, last year he was 10th in the entire NHL in PP points/60 among people who get at least a minute of PP time per game last year and 6th the year before that. Richards may not be an elite 5-on-5 scorer, but he is an elite power play man, and putting him out of the way at the point gives up a lot of what has made him so successful,
That was my point. Richards and the top line were used to shut down the opposing teams top line while our second and third lines were used for scoring. That’s good and fine and all, but Richards is too valuable to use like that.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Neither does Timonen or Carle, there shots don’t exactly strike fear into opposing teams, in fact Timonen rarely takes slappers nowadays which is a shame cuz he was such a good goal score for Nashville.
Timonen is great at the point he has a great slap pass and has a decent point shot.
What can't Giroux do?
His slap pass is terrific, but I disagree in his point shot simply because he doesn’t shoot enough on our PP.
No one shoots enough on our PP. And when they do take shots, they’re horrible passes into the opposing goalie’s pad, which then causes the media to proclaim that goalie as amazing because he stopped five weak shots.
And please no one crucify me because I just said weak shots. They do exist.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Carle actually has a pretty good shot from the point – he just almost never USES it. Nice and low, easily deflectable, consistently accurate. It’s no boomer from Weber, or a toucher from Rafalski, but it’s pretty decent.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on May 31, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Richards is most valuable when he’s being used to shut down the opposing teams’ top line. I don’t see how he’s “too valuable” to do what he’s best at. On a team with Giroux, Carter, and Briere, Richards is too valuable to not use in a defensive, shut down role.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 30, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well then perhaps its his linemates who could use an upgrade. I might be mistaken but I feel we didn’t get enough production out of our top line due to this.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
It’s because of your definition “Top Line”. What’s your “top line” supposed to do? What’s the top line on this team? Is it the one with Claude Giroux and Jeff Carter on it? Is it the one that is put in the best position to score? Is it the one with the Captain on it?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 30, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Richards skill wise is a “top line” player but to me such a versatile talent really can play with most anybody, put him with Betts on the PK he’ll get it done put him out to shut down a tip line opponent he’s my first choice, down goal he’s one of my top 3 guys I look too on this team to turn it around, his value too me can’t be judged because he does so many things well regardless of who he’s playing with or against.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 10:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
His value can’t be judged?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
He does so many things well it’s tough to say his value, it’s through the roof no doubt but to pinpoint it is hard to do.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 3:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess it depends on how you’re measuring it. But a two-way player, who plays in all situations, scores and doesn’t get scored on, while facing top opposition? I’ll still go back to the Heavy Lifter Index, but I see your point.
Plus, he’s a gritty leader who knows how to win. :)
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I wish he could take it easier physically in the first half of the season some so he wouldn’t be injured going into the playoffs each year but other than that he plays a terrific brand of hockey.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m a huge Richards fan. Part of that is because he won’t take it easy. haha, so partially agreed.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Richards skill wise is a "top line" player
On some teams… but as far as pure offensive “skill” goes he’s behind Giroux, while Briere and Carter (and if JVR keeps up his playoff performance) are arguably as skilled if not more than Richie.
by OrangeNblacK on May 31, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, how’s this Geoff? I think we need more production out of Richards line. Is that enough for you, or are two lines of production what most teams can expect?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Well, what do you mean “more production”? More defense, more points, more what? And is that on Richards, Versteeg, or JVR?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Most people who like to debate have actual things to say when they reply, not this gibberish you spit out.
Obviously I mean more points, unless you have the memory of an ant. And I’ve been trying to identify who it’s on, or who should be on the line, or if a defensive line is even something you want Richards on. But you, instead of discussing that, have purposely been very difficult and avoiding the issue. So what good is even talking to you?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Most people like to say “X isn’t enough, Richards needs to produce Y.” Instead, you throw out platitudes like “more production” and “too valuable” and “I may be mistaken” and “I feel we didn’t get enough production out of our top line”. Because, vague descriptors like “more” and “too” and “may be” and “feel” and “enough” and “top line” are flimsy to most people, gibberish to others.
Rather than say “I think we need more production out of Richards line”, explain to me what you want a third-line in the NHL to produce. Explain why, on a team with Briere, Leino, Hartnell, Zherdev, Carter, and Giroux, the Flyers need their third line wingers to score more.
Then explain a) Why a guy with a hernia needs to be upgraded; b) Why you need 9 forwards who are supposed to score; c) How much you want them to score; d) Who can be brought in to score that much from the third line; e) How much ice time that person would then get; f) How much that person would cost; g) How you afford that person; and h) Who faces the other teams’ top lines next year.
Is that clear enough for you?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you insane? You must be a hit at parties when someone mentions something they noticed in a sport and you respond with this. I’m not going to play your game Geoff. There is no point trying to talk or reason with you.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Love the personal attacks. Sorry for asking you to clarify your gibberish, or explain your emotional reactions with concrete statements.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me try to bring this back on topic. One thing I’m confused about is whether you were arguing that Richards has been misused for his whole career or that something was wrong last year.
As I said above, I don’t think his usage was any tougher or his production was any less last year than in previous years. Take a look at Richie’s stats.
Last year was his second-easiest competition (Corsi Rel QoC of 0.752), his second-best set of linemates (Corsi Rel QoT of 1.513), his second-highest point production (2.07/60), and his most offensive zone starts (46.8%).
Don’t rain on my parade. Carcillo might come back!! (assuming he takes the deal, which I hope he does. Don’t be stupid here, Dan.)
Well, now I’m retreating into the beautiful sunny day in my Carcillo-might-be-resigned happiness before someone can ruin it
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
Giving up isn't an option
Hate to say it, but I could see Carcillo sticking around with a pricey contract. Sad fact-of-the-matter is that hockey is a business, and Carcillo (although I don’t know why) has a LOT of fans in Philly. I can’t tell you the number of people I’ve met who think Carcillo’s the second coming of Christ or something – especially for more casual fans who watch hockey for the fighting. The organization will want to keep him around not for his talent, but because he draws fans (thus revenue) for us.
"I LIKED when the Pens sucked-easier, cheaper tickets" - a penguins fan
People might like Carcillo, but he’s not the reason people watch the Flyers. If the Flyer’s are making roster decisions based on the whims of supposed Carcillo-specific fans then this team is headed for the cellar where it would lose considerably more money then if it disposed of Carcillo.
What can't Giroux do?
Upshall>Carcillo
This nonsense must end. And for that record, why did we get rid of Fedatenko all those years ago!?? And Patrick Sharp!! Oh the horrors of Flyers Hockey
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Patrick Sharp was one of my favorite players and I was pissed when they traded him, now he’s making them regret it, and hey he’s got a cup, who’s laughing now…
the Sharp trade was the worst trade in recent memory for me, followed by the Upshall trade.
I always felt the Sharp trade was okay because it got rid of the guy who made it and THEN we got Upshall in an equally unfair trade.
And then we traded Upshall and my world crumbled.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I don’t see how you can say it was ok, we got Matt Ellison who did literally nothing for us while Sharp has become a threat in Chicago, he’s on the PK and PP and he’s good at even strength, he plays the wing as well and brings it all every time he’s on the ice.
At the time sharp had failed to impress as a Flyers player. A move to Chicago might have been just what he needed to take it to the next level.
What can't Giroux do?
He didn’t have much playing time. Shortly after he was traded the team had a serious need for centres as well, making the trade even more moronic. He was a star player on our Phantoms Championship team, and he gets traded instantly WITH ANOTHER PLAYER for someone who is literally a nobody.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
He had about a full seasons worth of games and Richie and Carter ahead of him in the pipeline. And to be honest that Phantoms team was stacked.
What can't Giroux do?
Look, even if you are okay with trading him, do you know the actual trade? We basically gave him away PLUS someone else for a bag of used pucks.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Midway through the 2005–06 season, Sharp was traded by the Flyers, along with Éric Meloche, to the Chicago Blackhawks on December 5, 2005, for Matt Ellison and a 3rd-round pick in the 2006 NHL Entry Draft.
Matt Ellison who, for the record, was traded away for a player to be named later. I assume he was never named. I don’t know who the third round pick was but it looks like it was Matsumoto.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I do know the actual trade it was Sharp and Meloche for Ellison and a 3rd. My point is at the time if you predicted sharp was going to become the player he is now someone probably would have laughed at you. Sharp wouldn’t have gotten the playing time he needed to develop in Philadelphia that he got in Chicago with Richards and Carter ahead of him. He was an unfortunate depth chart casualty but nothing to dwell on.
What can't Giroux do?
But he would have. A month after we traded him, we had to add centres because the team was short on them. He’d have gotten his playing time there.
Of course, without trading Sharp, Clarke would still be in charge, and our team would be full of Derrick Colemans.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Bottom line is we are saying that even then it may have been the “right” move but it was still stupid, there’s s reason he was a second round pick so to predict he would do what he did is not out of the question. And to be honest I’d trade any forward on our team other than Richie or JVR to get him back.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 10:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bottom line what I am saying is a) he was never going to get the same crack here as he did in Chicago and b) even if he did there’s a good chance he’d have suffered the same fate as Umberger. And I wouldn’t trade Giroux, Richie, JVR or Carter for him.
What can't Giroux do?
Forgot about Giroux I wouldn’t send him either, too much potential but Carter I would.
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 10:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Man you sure do seem to forget some the Flyers’ best players pretty easily, lol. If Carter wasn’t locked up to a long term deal I would flip him for Sharp but Sharp’s impending free agency scares me away.
What can't Giroux do?
Sharp’s a better all around player than Carter and cheaper and personally there isn’t anyone in the league I’d give an 11 year deal to. In 6 years when Carters production slows we’ll be stuck with 4 more overpaid years of him.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sharp’s a better all around player than Carter
Compare Carter’s stats to Sharp’s.
Carter played substantially tougher competition (0.896 Corsi Rel QoC vs Sharp’s -0.028). Carter started in the offensive zone 43.8% of the time, while Sharp did it 67% of the time. Carter had a better Corsi Rel (7.8 to 5.7). Carter had more goals per 60 (1.40 to 1.07) and more points (2.48 to 2.31). The only edge Sharp had was in assists, which hardly makes him a better all-around player.
No offense Eric but I have never looked at Corsi nor do I know what it is about but other factors have to be put in, Sharp can play wing as well is an above average defensive forward, he’s tougher, and he’s a better penalty killer, and for a guy like Carter he just simply isn’t a clutch scorer, he scores a lot but when he scores matters and to me Briere and Giroux are more clutch than him and JVR is becoming a force as well, while I like Carter a lot he’s probay the most expendable forward of our top 9 other than Hartnell/Versteeg.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He also would fetch perhaps the best return other than JVR.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Carter played wing all year. Carter is a damn good penalty killer. And Carter is a “clutch”, “consistent” goal scorer.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the article and all good points and I mist admit I was wrong on some of it, but if you noticed Sharp is neck and neck on those lists with him and in fact is higher up on the go ahead goal list so I dont see how clutch goals goes to Carter over Sharp
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 6:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But that’s not what your argument was. Simply saying his contract is too long is fine, but Sharp isn’t a better all around player. Sharp is a goal scorer, Carter is a two-way goal scorer.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Skill wise Carter is a better player yes but I guess what I’m saying is I feel if we had Sharp I the lineup instead of Carter we would be just as well off. Sharp a better playoff player also. I was pissed when they sent him away for nothing and I feel Sharp is underrated in the league. Either way I’m a Carter supporter.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 8:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I share you opinion on Sharp, I do not share your opinion on Carter. And that’s fine.
But what will be interesting is your reaction to a link in tomorrow’s Fly By about Sharp :)
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh oh lol, I didn’t spark this Fly By article did I?
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 9:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
haha, no.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 31, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Sharp can play wing as well
That’s what Carter did this year, no?
is an above average defensive forward
You keep saying this, but if his coaches are using him exclusively in the offensive zone against middling opposition, that suggests they don’t agree.
he’s tougher
Carter played on two broken feet in the playoffs last year.
Dang, I was going to go through the rest, but Jeff got his comment up first so I’ll stop.
He played on two broken feet and was a non factor, I never said he wasn’t a good penalty killer so your putting words in my mouth there I just stated that Sharp is also a damn good one, and the reason he plays against lesser players is because Toews is there man not because he can’t handle it. And personally I don’t like Carter as a winger I wish he was at center were he belongs with that awesome shot of his. I’m not saying I’m right or your wrong so I hope we are just debating and not arguing here cuz I love Carter just like Sharp better.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 6:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, debate’s all in good fun. It’s about all we have these days, sadly.
I don’t have a problem with “I like Sharp more”. But I’m skeptical of the claim that Sharp is a better all-around player, since I think Carter has taken on more roles (center and wing, offensive and defensive) and has had at least equal success (Corsi Rel, goals, points).
On a side note, you mentioned that you didn’t really know what Corsi was. It’s kind of like +/-, except instead of comparing how many goals the teams scored while the player was on the ice, you compare how many shot attempts each team got (including missed and blocked shots). It’s a good surrogate for puck possession and zone time, and a good predictor of future goal scoring.
Sharp’s a better all around player than Carter and cheaper and personally there isn’t anyone in the league I’d give an 11 year deal to. In 6 years when Carters production slows we’ll be stuck with 4 more overpaid years of him.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you forgot
adam oates for two hundred draft choices… rj umberger for zippo…
by Elmo the faithful fan on May 31, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure thats what the Red Wings have been saying about Lieno for a while.
You win some, you lose some.
by philiafan14364 on May 30, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Detroit only traded him because they needed cap space to maneuver guys between the NHL and AHL?
by ryanitus on May 30, 2011 10:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t want Carter to leave.
I don’t have numbers, cap hits, score sheets or anything to back this up. just my eyes. I love my team for who’s on it, not just because of where i’m from. and honestly, seeing (just about) any of these guys go will break my heart a little.
now i’m what you’d call a newer fan. And i’m probably a lot younger than most of you. i’m not a hockey expert or anything, but from what i see, Jeff Carter is one of our better players whether he has an attitude problem or not. He’s not here to be nice to you. He’s here to play hockey, and he does just that.
by the way, i’m a first time poster (but have been a member/reader for a long time) so be nice to me and excuse my stupidity.
by ForTheLoveOfBob on May 30, 2011 9:17 PM EDT reply actions
Glad to see you jump into the conversation :) I like your username.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 30, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, thank you! it took me forever to make something up.
by ForTheLoveOfBob on May 30, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
let em go!!!
carcillo… powe… nodl… hartnell… replace holmgren with pronger… he’s ten times smarter and might even play a little down the road!!!!
by Elmo the faithful fan on May 31, 2011 1:22 PM EDT reply actions
Hartnell is still under contract and overpaid he’s not going anywheres.
by ryanitus on May 31, 2011 4:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
holmgren is a fool...
pronger is clearly much smarter and would make a great GM…If he winds upm coming back from his surgery he could easily play d and run the team at the same time!!!!!
by Elmo the faithful fan on May 31, 2011 1:28 PM EDT reply actions
don't give up on bob
all he needs is some tougening up mentally…. spending a fortune on some old guy is just the kind of dumb ass move you can expect from holmgren…
by Elmo the faithful fan on May 31, 2011 1:31 PM EDT reply actions
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