Just How Bad Were the Flyers Against the Bruins?
by Geoff Detweiler on May 7, 2011 11:34 PM EDT
in 2011 NHL Playoffs
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We all know the Flyers played like absolute shit against the Bruins. They had a good Game 2, but... even then, they played like crap. Travis started with a look at the terrible coaching decisions regarding the goalies, and I've looked at how every single aspect of the team is to blame, but... let's put some numbers to that.
I did the same thing after the Sabres series over at SBN Philly, but this is so depressing that I figure you all are a better audience for this. Don't let me down.
As a refresher, all data is at even-strength. Here are what the columns are: Games Played, Goals For, Goals Against, on-ice shooting percentage, on-ice save percentage, Fenwick percentage, Corsi percentage, percentage of offensive zone faceoffs, and percentage of offensive zone faceoffs not including Flyers icings.
Included at the bottom of each table is the team totals, so there is a baseline to compare to.
All tables are sortable by column.
First, the forwards:
| Player | GP | GF | GA | Sh% | Sv% | Fen% | Corsi% | OZ% | NI OZ% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Versteeg | 4 | 1 | 5 | 2.70% | 0.848 | 0.483 | 0.472 | 0.581 | 0.643 |
| Betts | 4 | 1 | 3 | 8.33% | 0.800 | 0.400 | 0.390 | 0.214 | 0.231 |
| Carcillo | 4 | 1 | 1 | 7.14% | 0.929 | 0.415 | 0.422 | 0.200 | 0.235 |
| Carter | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.818 | 0.514 | 0.563 | 0.636 | 0.667 |
| Richards | 4 | 1 | 6 | 2.70% | 0.800 | 0.506 | 0.483 | 0.512 | 0.583 |
| Hartnell | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.00% | 0.871 | 0.480 | 0.480 | 0.407 | 0.478 |
| van Riemsdyk | 4 | 2 | 6 | 4.88% | 0.850 | 0.491 | 0.517 | 0.676 | 0.735 |
| Leino | 4 | 1 | 3 | 3.33% | 0.897 | 0.507 | 0.490 | 0.500 | 0.588 |
| Giroux | 4 | 2 | 3 | 4.88% | 0.903 | 0.563 | 0.603 | 0.644 | 0.690 |
| Powe | 4 | 1 | 4 | 9.09% | 0.800 | 0.356 | 0.344 | 0.214 | 0.231 |
| Briere | 4 | 1 | 6 | 2.94% | 0.842 | 0.500 | 0.500 | 0.448 | 0.542 |
| Zherdev | 3 | 2 | 3 | 8.00% | 0.833 | 0.545 | 0.581 | 0.813 | 0.867 |
| TEAM | 4 | 5 | 16 | 4.42% | 0.850 | 0.491 | 0.494 | 0.518 | 0.576 |
Good luck making sense of what is there. Only three Flyers were on the ice for more than one Flyers' goal, and Lavy decided to bench one of them for Game 4. Brilliant. Which forwards were most potent on offense? Why, the small sample sized- Fourth line of Darroll Powe, Blair Betts, and Dan Carcillo of course. Which three forwards gave up the most goals? Why, series standout star James van Riemsdyk, defensive-stud Mike Richards, and the clutchiest playoff performer Danny Briere.
How about which top-9 players Peter Laviolette deployed in a defensive role? How about one-way players like Scott Hartnell and Danny Briere. Who had the fourth most defensive zone starts among the top nine? The other third of that line, Ville Leino. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? I mean, those three ranked 12th, 13th, and 14th (or the three least often deployed there) in most often deployed in the defensive zone among forwards with 40 games played during the regular season, why not flip that on its head in the second round of the playoffs?
Yes, Peter Laviolette completely wasted the Briere line. It's mind-boggling that he would do that. It is the exact opposite of what he should have done. Just to pile on Laviolette, look at Nikolay Zherdev. What the hell did he do in that series to warrant sitting him? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Can you find something else worth sharing? I'm sure you can. Go for it.
Defense
| Player | GP | GF | GA | Sh% | Sv% | Fen% | Corsi% | OZ% | NI OZ% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Coburn | 4 | 2 | 7 | 4.76% | 0.848 | 0.482 | 0.483 | 0.500 | 0.564 |
| O`Donnell | 4 | 1 | 3 | 3.85% | 0.897 | 0.474 | 0.500 | 0.563 | 0.643 |
| Carle | 4 | 2 | 6 | 4.35% | 0.860 | 0.458 | 0.438 | 0.467 | 0.500 |
| Syvret | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.917 | 0.561 | 0.574 | 0.714 | 0.833 |
| Meszaros | 4 | 3 | 6 | 5.88% | 0.867 | 0.484 | 0.503 | 0.531 | 0.578 |
| Timonen | 4 | 2 | 7 | 5.13% | 0.794 | 0.538 | 0.542 | 0.553 | 0.619 |
| TEAM | 4 | 5 | 16 | 4.42% | 0.850 | 0.491 | 0.494 | 0.518 | 0.576 |
Oh, this is just beautiful, isn't it? Each of the Flyers' top-4 defensemen gave up 6 even-strength goals in 4 games. Kimmo Timonen had an on-ice save percentage of 0.794. Think about how ridiculous that is for a second. Only two NHL goalies who faced at least 10 shots had save percentages worse than that. While a man down. Brutal.
Only Danny Syvret - who played less than 21 even-strength minutes all series - had a save percentage of 0.900 or higher. And while Travis showed that Matt Carle was having a brutal series, he was the one Kevin McCarthy deployed in the defensive zone most often. A lot of oddities in this table.
Goalies
| Player | GP | GF | GA | Sh% | Sv% | Fen% | Corsi% | OZ% | NI OZ% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bobrovsky | 4 | 3 | 4 | 7.14% | 0.889 | 0.505 | 0.517 | 0.560 | 0.622 |
| Boucher | 3 | 2 | 12 | 2.82% | 0.831 | 0.484 | 0.480 | 0.483 | 0.537 |
| TEAM | 4 | 5 | 16 | 4.42% | 0.850 | 0.491 | 0.494 | 0.518 | 0.576 |
Oof. First, before anybody sees that 0.831 and says that Boucher sucks, let me remind you that he had a 0.936 even-strength save percentage in round one. Second, holy hell is that 0.831 bad. But so is the 2.82% shooting percentage while Boucher was on the ice.
Also, as further evidence of how crappy the team played in front of Boucher, in a series where the Flyers only held a lead for 14 minutes (5.5% of the entire series), they were still out-shot. All evidence available suggests that when teams are trailing, they out-shoot their opposition. It's score effects. And yet, the Flyers got out-shot with Boucher in net. Not to mention starting in their own zone more often than not. That's some bad hockey going on in front of Boucher.
While Bobrovsky wasn't very good either - an 88.9% even-strength save percentage would rank in between Robin Lehner and Rick DiPietro from this past season - the team played better in front of him. Still not great, but better.
Conclusion
I already used words to say how everything including coaching, offense, defense, and goaltending went wrong in the Boston series, but here we use numbers. To me, it's even more telling that Laviolette was out-coached, the defense was out-played, the offense was non-existent, and the goaltending was playing a man short.
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Way to make me angry.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 7, 2011 11:39 PM EDT reply actions
Ouch. Salt in wounds, eh?
Anyways, Carcillo was an absolute beast according to most of those stats. Speaking of, what’s the injury report on him? I found nothing so far
Following Dan Carcillo where ever he may go
Giving up isn't an option
by Cillo stache on May 7, 2011 11:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I too am a Carcillo fan;as long as Lavy is here , Dan will never get the ice time or PP time he deserves. His stats would have been even better if Richards and others could finish on his set up passes or get the puck to net while Danny is camped in front.Hope he ends up next year playing a lot wether that is here or elsewhere.
I completely agree with saying that if richards buried his chances, but dan really doesn’t have the skill to play PP. BTW, for the amount of shots richards had and the amount of goals he had, you have to say “come on man.” Dan works hard and that is how he makes his plays…if only others would follow
By the way, Zherdev’s OZ start was 0.813. That’s a bit extreme too.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 7, 2011 11:53 PM EDT reply actions
Absolutely. But it’s probably the one thing in there Lavy did right. Zherdev should be getting those kinds of starts. But for all four games, not just 3.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 12:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You know, I can’t help but think that something happened with this team between the All Star break and the beginning of March. I just feel that there has to be some sort of explanation for the 180 that their performance took.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on May 8, 2011 12:00 AM EDT reply actions
We tried to break up the “party crew” by splitting up Lupul, Upshall, Carts and Richie… so we trade for Versteeg. I just didn’t like any bit of his game. I think if he would taylor his game towards Richie—-uptempo, not flashy, physical, he would be great. He doesn’t need to dangle on this team…
Now that it is the offseason, I can say I expect Versteeg to be much more noticeable next year. A lot of players have trouble adjusting when they get a near-deadline trade, and a lot of times coaches have trouble finding a role for them.
That being said, I would not be surprised at all if Versteeg gets traded/not resigned. He looked… well he didn’t look like anything did he? He was invisible.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I thought that Steeg was going to be a physical player and he just wasn’t. He tried to do too much with the puck, and maybe he had to in Chicago but thats not what we needed from him.
Thanks, Geoff, for quantifying how bad this was.
Another way to look at this is that without JVR and Claude, this would have been really, really, really bad. (Z and DSOD played well according to the stats, but Lavi wouldn’t play them regularly).
And while I know he was hurt, Carter looks great in the stats…except for his 0.00 shooting percentage. Heh.
Set your JVR in 2011.
We’re huge fans of DSOD – could you tell? – but he played so little that all those numbers say is that he should have played more. They don’t say how well he did play, just that everybody was so bad, he wasn’t playing any worse.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 12:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Outcoached
I believe, to be “outcoached”, you need to start out making basic, common sense coaching decisions. Since Lavvy failed to do that, he wasn’t outcoached, he failed as a coach.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Absolutely not! When you’re losing line matchups at home, where you have last change, and believe me there’s plenty more, he blew it and needs to be held accountable. Lavi has totally lost my confidence. Who dresses Rinaldo so you can play him for 3 or 4 shifts? That’s a wasted forward slot. I can keeo going, but everyone knows the deal. Sad…
by 92-74-99-96 on May 8, 2011 3:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Coaches
No one wants to say “Fire Lavvy” because this is the Flyers. We hate blaming the coach because it’s our legacy. But when looking at what went wrong in this Boston series, where else do you start? Where else can you start? It’s hard to blame the players when they were on the ice at the wrong time, with the wrong lines, with the wrong talent.
And it’s not like he made a mistake here, or he made a mistake there. He made nearly every mistake you could. He failed as a coach in every possible aspect.
Is it the Lavvy we know or expect? Not at all, he’s the complete opposite. But what good is a stellar, grade A coach if he complete and utterly fails to perform in an extremely important playoff series?
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
So, since the players failed to show up and play in any way do we ship them all off too? They completely and utter failed to perform in an extremely important playoff series too.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
For sure the players didn’t help themselves or perform to their capabilities. But what the data show are that Lavy failed to deploy them in a way that made the team most likely to succeed. Which is sort of where it begins, and can be looked at as a root cause of the atrociousness.
by Georgia_Flyer on May 8, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s hard to argue against this, save for the fact the entire team looked like shit (with very few exceptions) since February. Given the circumstances with which Lavy was ousted at Carolina, you can’t help but wonder about the correlation between Lavy and their performance down the stretch.
A few players showed up for the playoffs (JVR of course, and G and Z generally played quite well), so there’s definitely some player accountability, but I think at least some of it falls on Lavy.
Carolina
I didn’t start getting into hockey until a few years ago so this is all speculation, but did something along these lines happen in Carolina after he won the cup? I’ve always been curious as to why he was ditched a year after they had won the cup. Last year he was so great for us, and then came up short in the playoffs this year. Just trying to connect some dots, let me know if I’m just completely wrong….
Not according to my roommate, who is a huge Carolina fan. From what he tells me, people there are still pissed the ownership fired Lavy. In fact, at the All Star Game, they cheered more for him than the current Hurricane players on the team.
Eagles next starting QB: "East-West Shrine Game Legend" Mike Kafka
Flyers: Bob
Phillies:Gah enough with the injuries!.
Let's not quit on Lavy just yet..
While I do agree he was out coached in many aspects, and I didn’t agree with many of his goalie decisions (we should have stuck with bobs from game 1 of the buffalo series to let him gain some confidence, he’s our goalie of the future), I really think he started running out of options when NO ONE showed up to play. This is the same coach who took over halfway through last year and lead us to game 6 of the cup finals, and then in his first full season with the club lead a dominating regular season.
He did make mistakes, but there were many other things that lead to our disappointing post season. I’m looking forward to lavy redeeming himself come next season. LETS GO FLYERS
the one that gets me the most is that only three forwards were on the ice for more then one goal for and thats the giroux line….way to break that up in game 4 in favor of shelly? and richards save percentage not much better then timonen along with powe and betts. The team really played like crap this series except game two where even then horrible turnovers led to prime scoring chances for the bruins in OT
Hell, Shelly shouldn’t have even been on the roster, let alone on the ice in Game 4.
I’m looking at you, Homer.
I’m still pissed over signing this guy, this guy, and this guy, so we’re over the cap, and piss Gagne away for hmmm… nothing! Just ridiculous…
by 92-74-99-96 on May 8, 2011 3:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Shelley should never have made the team. He should be on the AHL payroll.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I hate to say this now, but Gagne’s trade remains as an event that really hurt his team. We were annoyed enough when that trade happened, but we didn’t anticipate the side effect that hurt us the most: Mike Richards being taken out of his role as the shutdown center in our top defensive line. Richie with Gags on his wing was a formidable force, and perhaps he would have been a formidable force this season too if Lavvy had used him properly, but obviously Lavvy thought that without Gagne Richie shouldn’t have that role.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 8, 2011 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions
When I used to bitch about Gagne being traded people were always saying “Oh we couldn’t afford him, blah blah blah”, He was a huge leader and offensive weapon for us, a we didn’t show him the respect he deserved by letting him go, we screwed him and we screwed ourselves. COME BACK SIMON FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
Danny Fist-Pump Strikes Again!!!
by MeszarosKillsPeople on May 8, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh…I agree and disagree.
Part of me is saying that he would propel the team through the playoffs and lead by example and score and all that good stuff.
But I really don’t think he’d be that much of an asset throughout the season. We took the number two spot in the conference without him and advanced to the second round. I’d love for him to be there, but I don’t think even he could have turned the tide.
"Halak way out of the net! It pinballs to the crease...SCOOORRREEEEE!"
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I’ve stayed away from here for several days. Been depressed as have most of you. I didn’t see the last 2 games because of work although I have gamecenter and could. I won’t. I checked the score in game 4 and saw a 1-1 score and though nice. We will win one. Then I checked again and saw a 5-1 score. It made absolutely no sense. I almost puked. WE are angry and we want answers. As usual, this site is the one thing that keeps many of us fans away from buying a new straight razor and a bottle of whiskey. Ok, well away from the razor anyhow. Thanks to all who work hard to continually keep us informed and maintain a general place or therapy. I still don’t know what happened to Pronger..What the hell happened to us after the all star break? Especially the last couple months. Do you remember we were contemplating wanting the Presidents fuckin trophy? Like it might be a bad idea cause we want the cup more. In the end we got ziltch. We looked bad doing it too. My facebook page is littered with shite from people mocking the Flyers. Even Colorodo fans made fun!! Sigh-it’s gonna be a long goddam summer. I watched Source code last night, really loaded. I imagined someone could go into lavy’s bloody body and redo all his crap. Or go into Booooooosh and make a save here and there. And so on….
So how many weeks into the season does lavvy actually get if these things don’t change in the beginning of the season? This whole scenario reminds me of stevens. They stunk out the ass for the last two months leading up to the playoffs, lost to the pens in the first round essentially looking like shit and then nothing seemed different two months into the next season. This is why stevens had to go. Is that were we are now? I don’t care about saving face over coaches, if he ain’t getting his message throug or making good decisions with personell and game plan, well see ya later.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
been calling for his head the last month, no need for me to stop now
inter arma enim silent leges
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on May 8, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
So when do the calls for Lavy’s head start?
Geoff you are making me so angry. I was over this, I was past it, truthfully, when it ended I had moved on…and now…this.
“Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.”
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
A question for the chart makers and statisticians. How does our shittyness losing in four to Boston compare to say the caps or even the coyotes shittyness in losing there series? “goaltending” wasn’t the essence of their demise as was supposedly the flyers.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
by MJDII on May 8, 2011 12:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Good question. But the Caps scored 10 goals in four games, gave up 16. Everything else would take a lot more work.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Well we didn’t have a lead much more than you guys, but I think we did have it a bit more. We out-shot TBL in all of the first 3 games (as did PIT in all 7 games) but I don’t remember how the fourth game ended. They were poised to out-shoot their opponents for the first time in the third period but maybe we passed them at some point. I doubt it. I can’t really even begin to guess the individual statistics.
[P]urely as a fan, making an emotional investment in the Caps looks more and more over time like a fool’s errand. There is no romance in being a fan of a lovable loser.
The Flyers were absolutely horrendous in every aspect for the entire series, save two periods in Game 2. I don’t think the Capitals got particularly outplayed, just outscored.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
And I am only saying this to make the point, statistically clear, that even if the Flyers had had Bryz or Noyvert in net it would not have mattered.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Oh, absolutely. It’s the point I’ve been trying to make since Game 1. Goaltending would not have done jack in this series.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t read all the comments, and I haven’t read anything since Friday. I will not listen to anything about fire Lavy, trade Richie, Zherdev is great, DSOD is great, goalies are not the issue, goalies are the issue, blah blah. We got our ass kicked.
Next year is the proving ground. One concern is about the D. We have 2 years before we need a major overhaul. Kimmo & Prongs will be gone (Prongs not gone, but probably a second pairing by then), and it is obvious how badly we drop off without Pronger.
I do believe Bob may finally be the answer in net, but we need a quality veteran to take starts. Whether that’s Vokoun or someone else, I do not know. I get worried each off season about overreacting, and yes we need some tweaks, but we do not need chaos.
I don’t have any problem with Bob and Boosh next year again, just as long as it’s all Bob in the playoffs and Lavy doesn’t get trigger happy with him.
"It's not just linebackers. This is Penn State linebackers, man. We're a certain type. We've gotta be aggressive, relentless, focused. Don't talk. Don't talk at all. We don't showboat or anything. We just play hard and get the job done." -Khairi Fortt
just my opinion!!!
the flyers played the season backwards… peaked in october and packed it in in march/april… bob might be better next year… he needs to be driven hard… he’s not asserting himself yet but might learn… he has the potential. a number of players must go… hartnell (just a bonehead)… briere (on the cusp)… carcillo (n skills no brain)… powe (where’s the net?)… noodle (whatever) the biggest elephant in the room is pronger… If he can’t play a full season anymore that’s a problem… carle and coburn are good but not top drawer… timonen is wearing out and mezaros is great 3rd liner but that’s it… here’s what they need… two new right wings… one who can lay a big hit… one who and score… a top d man if pronger is done… and a coach who understands the season starts in feb.
by Elmo the faithful fan on May 8, 2011 2:34 PM EDT reply actions
It was really depressing to watch Laviolette do everything in his power to eliminate any grace period he earned through last year’s playoff run. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more poorly coached series, in any sport, in my entire life. Just horrible. Also, fire the freakin medical staff already. Every year with this rushing guys back shit. I’m sick of it
Assuming Laviolette keeps his job, which I think is likely despite my sentiments, Mullen must be fired; the PP was utterly inept.
Any notable coaches looking for jobs right now? How awesome would it be if we got Scotty Bowman out of the blue?
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting stuff. I like looking at the delta between the two Ozone start stats. It tells you who is getting caught on icings more often and that suggests getting pinned in their own zone. It’s probably a team effort, getting pinned in your zone, but do you tend to put it more on the D or the F corps?
[P]urely as a fan, making an emotional investment in the Caps looks more and more over time like a fool’s errand. There is no romance in being a fan of a lovable loser.
I haven’t actually studied it. I’d be curious how one could look at the icings to see a trend.
Any ideas?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Laviolette will stay. I mean come on. I don’t care about the shitstorm of a bruins series they just went through. Laviolette deserves to stay. He was great last year and even this year they finished with the number 2 seed in the east. He is a good coach and has not been with the team long enough to tell if he is the right coach for the flyers to hoist a cup. He should stay. I am sure they will fire some other coaches though.
Whether he should go or stay is obviously debatable, but to treat his complete and epic failures this post-season as immaterial is ridiculous.
no one said
to treat his failures in the postseason as immaterial. I just said he deserves to stay, you don’t, that is fine. We can both have our opinions.
by PhilsForever on May 10, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Lavvy
My opinion is Lavvy gets the early part of next year with a fresh refocused team to prove no matter how he matched lines or what he did with the goaltenders the team was cooked and it wasn’t his fault either way. There is still a part of me that believes neither Scotty Bowman nor Fred Shero could have been behind that bench and it wasn’t going to make a hill of beans. The players were just not getting it done. Other side of the coin???
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I agree that Lavy shouldn’t be fired right away. As horrible as his decisions were, we don’t know if there was some flawed logic behind them. For example, did he try to use Briere against Krejci because he knew Richards wasn’t healthy enough to handle it? We’ll never know if there was that type of thought process going on, I’m only speculating. Some of the decisions made lately seemed so un-Lavy that I can’t shake the feeling there were possible reasons behind the scenes. I still think terrible decisions were made, and if they continue into next season then it has to be addressed, but I don’t know he’s personally done enough wrong to be fired on the spot without another chance.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. No one knows the real reasons behind some of the decisions. And also in fairness if you watched Chara against small speedy forwards all year and specifically against Montreal the obvious game plan was to let him chase briere around all night because he isn’t that good at it. Well it didn’t work that way, but in the coaches meetings that was the plan and they stuck to it to long. Also, we don’t know that behind closed doors bob showed something that said he was cooked that led to the Leighton debacle. I can’t imagine it was completely arbitrary. But it didn’t work.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I’m willing to bet Lavy went with Leighton because he chose to, regardless of Bobrovsky.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if Richards wasn’t healthy enough to handle it, you don’t put Briere out in the defensive zone against the Bruins’ top line.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I did say flawed logic, did I not? I’m not saying I agreed with it, I don’t know why he made the decision, I just feel like he had some reason for it that I don’t know about.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I’d love to know what that reason is. Because it will surely make me laugh.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I might too, but as bad as the last few weeks were, and some (not all) of the decisions he made earlier in the year, I’m not ready to can him at this moment. If it continues next year it’s a different story.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I wouldn’t fire him. But I’d definitely love to sit down and show him how he wasted Mike Richards this year. And wasted Danny Briere.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he should be canned, but don’t believe he will be. Lets discuss what we would like to do in the off-season (realistically) under the guise that Laviolette is here (i.e. we all know Z is gone).
There is nothing you can do. Try and sign Leino? The D is here to stay so maybe swap out SOD for another senior defensemen but I am willing to keep him as long as they don’t make the mistake of running him into the ground next year. Try to keep Boynton? There is no wholesale changes that are gong to happen either out of salary restrictions or movement restrictions. They need to better manage the personnel that is in place. Hopefully Versteeg gets with the program and fits in.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Wow that’s seriously depressing. But it feels like the stats match my eyes. They were seriously outplayed. I think the talent was there, but they were just not playing up to their game.
And I’m not in the fire Lavy camp. You don’t win a Stanley Cup, get to another (after coming back from down 3), and then go second in your conference without being a good coach. Sure, he sucked against Boston, but really, its not like the players actually did any better. I really don’t think you can blame either the players or the coaches. But then, I’m never of the opinion that firing a great coach is a good idea.
Eagles next starting QB: "East-West Shrine Game Legend" Mike Kafka
Flyers: Bob
Phillies:Gah enough with the injuries!.
Carle for what? If Pronger plays Carle is fine. Hartnell has a NTC he is going nowhere. I like Hartnell he adds some depth to the team and he works hard and he gets his nose dirty. Versteeg is staying. He needs to find a spot that fits him on the team and gel.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Hartnell is vastly overpaid. He contract is an albatross.
I would offload Carle & Hartnell/Versteeg for prospects/picks & use the cap space to fill those spots (which could be done at a more reasonable cost).
We don;t need a goaltender we have Bob to bring along and Boucher has earned his spot as the veteran back up. The team let him down more then he let the team down.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Because he’s wrong?
(Pst: He’s not.)
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
How? Based on what?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Christ, Geoff, it has been a problem for 20 years. Really, do we actually have to have this conversation? I’m not saying it’s the reason we lost…hell, I’m not even saying it’s our biggest problem….but it IS a problem.
So the current Flyers goaltending is a problem because… it had been one for 20 years?
Yes, we need to have this conversation. What was wrong with the Flyers goaltending? Brian Boucher stopped 93.1% of shots at even-strength against Buffalo.
Boucher stopped 92.5% of shots at even-strength during the regular season, same as Fleury, and more than Miller, Roloson, Crawford, Neuvirth, Quick, Vokoun, Kiprusoff, Howard, Halak…
Bobrovsky stopped 92.3%, which was better Neuvirth, Quick, Vokoun, Kiprusoff, Howard, Halak…
If goaltending is a problem in Philadelphia, it’s a problem in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Chicago, Washington, Los Angeles, Florida, Calgary, Detroit, St. Louis…
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
this is the basis of last summer’s discussion of “goalies don’t seem to matter anymore and therefore the market crashed”
Set your JVR in 2011.
Exactly. Holmgren’s “Build a fantastic defense, put them in front of an adequate goalie” strategy worked.
Until the defense fell apart for 4 straight games, and the “adequate goalie” couldn’t play better than “adequate”.
Saying goaltending is a problem is like saying “Let’s go grab a guy everyone thinks is really good, but their performance varies so much year to year and whose contract prohibits their team from having better skaters.”
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Sigh, the defense was truly horrible, and just looked exhausted. I thought Timonen was going to die on the ice.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly – they coulda had a clone of Tim Thomas in net and they would have still been swept
by SanDiegoScraps on May 9, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not blaming the goalies for this debacle, but I will be furious if we go into next season with the status quo.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
How about Bob/Leighton?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Ew. I don’t want Leighton anywhere near the Flyers’ net. I’d like them to make a push for Vokoun but I’m not sure what kind of money he’ll command. I think it will be a buyers market this year for goalies with Vokoun, Bryzgalov and Giguere all available, which should help, unless some team with cap room and a need in goal decides that Vokoun is clearly the best tof the three. I’m not sure what team fits that mold right now. Tampa Bay, probably. Maybe Dallas but they’ll probably concentrating more on filling the potential void at center.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Just wondering. That isn’t “status quo”, so I wasn’t sure.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I meant for the “status quo” to refer to the three goalies we currently have vying for playing time.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah. I don’t want Leighton. Shocker, I know, right?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Massive about turn. Massive.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 8, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly don’t think we are a reasonable shot at Vokoun or Bryz. I wouldn’t be against welcoming Ray back, assuming his hip checks out.
They should like, totally release next year’s cap number so we have something to do for the rest of the playoffs, which apparently keep going without the Flyers.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that just an estimate right now?
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The estimates are all over the map. I got nothin’ to add.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You aren’t the first person to state this.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m confused as to why he asked for you and not me :(
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Rookie mistake.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s alright. It was just weird, because it’s a running joke that I’m the first one requested. M wants a “Page DG” button put somewhere on the site and Chem finally developed the bat signal gif that they’ve been talking about for a year. Geoff knows the answers some/most of the time.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on 62.4...
And assuming we only deal Carle…
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Curtis Glencross ($2.000m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Kris Versteeg ($3.083m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.500m)
Darroll Powe ($0.800m) / Zenon Konopka ($0.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.950m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Anton Babchuk ($2.100m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Danny Syvret ($0.700m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Ray Emery ($1.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,914,988; BONUSES: $1,700,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $485,012
Thoughts?
Hmm. I don’t hate it, save for the goalie situation. I’d like to see what those other three goalies are commanding before we hypothetically insert Emery.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Understandable. I’d obviously rather have Vokoun, but I don’t see him taking anything under 5…and he’s certainly not take 3.5 or whatever ridiculousness has been floated around here as of late.
You don’t think he’ll take less than 5? I think he might, depending on who’s offering. I don’t think he’d sign with Edmonton for less, but for a team like the Flyers, sure.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
He might, but I would be surprised if he did. For us to grab him, it would have to be around 4, IMHO.
Possibly. Also, not gonna waive Shelley?
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I would do anything to remove him from this team. However, I’m not versed on how waivers impacts our cap hit.
I’d love to dump him & keep blair.
If we waive him and assign him to the AHL (or he’s claimed), he’s off the cap. They have to leave the roster, not just clear waivers. Note that this does not apply to 35+ contracts, when those are waived and assigned they still hurt us.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s a personal thing between Homer & I. He knows I hated that signing & hate it still. He wishes to inflict stress & pain upon me.
What a jerk. And apparently a very irresponsible GM
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I absolutely can’t believe I’m going to say this….
But if you get rid of Betts, we might need Shelley as a locker room guy.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sorry, but if you subtract all 3 of Betts and Boosh and Shelley, you put the locker room in trouble.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
There has been a lot of debate about Shelley this year and wether or not you see his role as valuable but if you think having Shelley is the reason for any of this teams troubles you are nuts.
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Completely debatable. And with him in the line up they had a really damn good year. And when they went into the shitter at the end of the season he was not in the line up.
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See above about non-market for goalies. This will continue UNLESS Tim Thomas makes it into the finals.
Set your JVR in 2011.
Yet another reason to root for the Lightning.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You said you only dealt Carle, but you dealt Betts and Leighton? Or did you just demote Leighton?
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not officially calculated until June 30th. Playoff revenues are a factor in HRR. They’ll usally have an estimate out in June, but any estimates now are speculative in nature.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully the players adopt the 5% inflator. That’d be cool with me.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
They have every year so far, I believe. But the league’s adjusted HRR number is the basis, regardless of the use of the escalator clause.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Hockey Related Revenues, which is practically all the money the league and teams took in during the 2010-11 year. They also get to up the estimate based on the expected influx of new money in 2011-12 for the new TV contract, because they already know how much they’ll be getting. From there they create what they call the Adjusted Midpoint of the salary range based on HRR; and once that number is defined they’ll add 8 million dollars to get the new cap and subtract 8 million dollars to get the floor.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So what exactly does the inflator due if it doesn’t raise the ceiling?
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It does raise the ceiling, but it doesn’t completely invalidate the calculation done by the league’s accountants. It’s not a “this OR that” relationship, where they only get one or the other.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole memorizing the CBA business has kind of turned me into an amateur lawyer and amateur accountant, hasn’t it?
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re kidding Vokoun is a $5mil goalie, where are you finding that cap space without gutting the D or O of this team? Giguere is past his time, he has not played more than 40 games since 2008-09. Bryz is gonna want as much if not more than Vokoun.
Bryz won’t command more than Vokoun. More years, probably, but not cap hit.
by mantis toboggan on May 9, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Why should we make any changes in nets? Given the arguments that have been made on this blog about the save percentages of our goalies, we then should feel perfectly comfortable with Bob & Boosh.
But there’s something that doesn’t sit well with us, isn’t there?
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
Because I think we can upgrade in goal without making us significantly worse in other areas. I agree with the general philosophy of placing more importance on position players, but having a very good goalie would certainly help.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not opposed to discussing what Vokoun and Bryz might want, I’m not sure I’m in their camp yet. I will stay that sticking with Bob & resigning Boosh sits better with me than thoughts of Giguere being one of the three best options on the UFA market or fretting about Emery’s hip for an entire season. And Leighton being in the system gives me nightmares. Yes, I said in the system, we need that AHL spot to have Backlund at the ready and have a chance to develop some of the other goalie prospects.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I think we need to be consistent here. If our goalies’ save percentages were outstanding, and the players in front imploded, and Coach Lavy was inferior in his coaching abilities, then there is no need to consider a new goalie. Am I missing something?
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
Were our goalies’ save percentages that outstanding in the 2nd round?
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a great goalie, or a good goalie on a good night, can steal a game behind a defense that is playing at 75% or 80% of their usual level. I don’t think any goalie can really steal a game behind a defense that’s operating around 25% and the offense can’t score.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair. It’s just that when we’re comparing ESS% over the course of a season, which is what has been used when evaluating our goaltending situation this year, wouldn’t you also have to take into account the inferior defenses of Tampa Bay, Chicago, Montreal, Calgary, and Buffalo. Clearly, a bad defense can effect those numbers (I’m assuming it did in the 2nd round), so someone like Vokoun can end up having a worse ESS% than Boucher.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a difference though between a defense being generally weaker than other teams and that’s their normal level, and a team with a good defense falling apart and not playing anything like normal. I never said Boosh or Bob were great goalies, they’re good goalies. The teams are built differently, Boosh and Bob are designed to be behind a good defense and Miller and Vokoun were architected to make up for a weak one. Buffalo and Florida’s defense, from what I’ve seen, isn’t as bad as how our defense played in this series.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
What I’m getting at is Vokoun has the best ESS% since the lockout, and yet I don’t think there’s any way he puts up ridiculous save percentage numbers behind the defense we put out in this series.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. Goaltending didn’t cost us this series. I’d still like an upgrade, though
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s fine, I was just responding to you asking if our goalie’s save % in the second round was outstanding. An upgrade wouldn’t mean an outstanding save percentage in this series.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope. OK, getting over how horribly this season ended staaaaaaaaaaaaaarts…now.
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that’s what I’m saying. The teams are built differently, ie a team like Florida relying more on Vokoun, so it isn’t necessarily fair to compare Boucher’s ESS% with Vokoun’s. Weaker defenses give up more quality chances
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not denying that Vokoun would be an upgrade, I said he’s a great goalie and Boosh and Bob are good goalies. But behind our defense, if it shows up, the difference isn’t supposed to matter. The only question is whether the offense was worth the money or if it was necessary, not whether or not he would be an upgrade.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This. I don’t think this point is getting through.
The best goalie in the world stops 93.3% of even-strength shots. Saying that Vokoun will suddenly improve from Boucher’s 92.5% this year to above 93.3% is hoping for the best. he could have a great year (Tim Thomas) and stop 94.7%, but only Tim Thomas stopped more than 93.4%.
In other words: Roberto Luongo – one of the best goalies in the world – played behind a great team defense… and stopped 93.4% of even-strength shots.
Saying that Vokoun will be an improvement from Boucher is fine, but that improvement (say 93.4% from 92.5%) will be about 13 goals a year, or… two wins.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Two wins would have gotten us a #1 seed! Then we get swept by TB instead of Boston! It changes everything!
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Right. And that $3 million you just pulled out of your lineup? Replace Scott Hartnell with Andreas Nodl, and tell me if you are really netting two wins.
Why do I feel like every time I make a great point in this thread, the person I’ve proven wrong doesn’t come back to either a) admit they didn’t think it through; or b) argue with me?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
All I’m saying is that Vokoun is an upgrade in goal. I’ll admit that we’ve had adequate goalies in playoffs past, even above-average. But I’d like a very good goalie at the right price, and I think we might be able to get that in Vokoun. Weren’t you in favor of a Carter/Vokoun trade last year?
by mantis toboggan on May 9, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Last year, yes. Mid-season. Because Emery was hurt, Boucher wasn’t getting any offensive support, and Michael Leighton is terrible.
Now, the team has Bobrovsky. And 5 very good defensemen. They don’t need a Vokoun to stop 92.5% of even-strength shots. Last year, they did (Leighton stopped 91.6%, Boucher 91.1%).
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
You also have to adjust for the fact that the team’s “superior defense” actually wasn’t superior.
People love to have it both ways. Either the team played like shit from February on, or they had a superior defense which inflated their goalies numbers.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s a good question, I don’t have those numbers readily available. A little Googling might help….
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
They weren’t good, you can get them on NHL.com. But I think save percentage is subjective here, because it usually levels out based on the fact that every shot you face is not normally a prime scoring chance where your defense lets you down, and some of the shots are relatively routine saves. I don’t think the balance was very good in this case.
Against Boston only, Boosh was at .846, and Bob was at .878.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
HE can’t be moved! He is a little overpaid, but he adds to the team. Versteeg needs to find his place on the team and Lavvy needs to find it with him. These are unrealistic requests.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
But you can not go into an offseason with a game plan that involves what you can’t be sure of happening.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I understand but you were the one actually thinking there is a chance.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I don’t think we’ll unload Hartnell, I do think it’s 50/50, pick ’em on whether Versteeg & Carle are on the roster next season.
Besides, it’s not like we have anything better to do at the moment.
But you have too much invested in Versteeg without a full season and training camp under his belt to cast him aside. And I recently remember the Carle is a beast conversations.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I was really impressed by Carle in the regular season. And then I watched him get completely owned in the post-season.
Variance? Undisclosed injury? Role change? I dunno, but I’m assuming (hoping) whatever it is can go back to the way it was.
You are only swapping out SOD if you can find his replacement. DSOD is is not an NHL defenseman. Sorry Geoff, but its da truth. Maybe get Gus as the seventh to swap in and out of the line up for SOD. He was fine all year long but he is just to old to log those kind of minutes and stay useful. It was a product of injury and necessity.
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Why is DSOD not an NHL defenseman? Based on what? And how is Gus an NHL defenseman, but DSOD isn’t?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Geoff, you know what angle I come from on this, you are either a player or you are not. DSOD, while having a cool acronym nickname and your envy, was just not good enough to win a spot on this d core. Gus is still an unknown commodity and has yet to have his shot as a young guy. It seems in sports the higher the possibilities a guy has is more valuable then a guy with more experience who has busted through.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Being an NHL defenseman is different from being good enough to win a spot on this d core.
Which is why I ask: what makes DSOD not an NHL defenseman? Because a ton of NHL defensemen are not good enough to win a spot on this d core.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay we are arguing different things I guess. And like DSOD, Ryan Parent is also an NHL defenseman and he has actually gotten over the hump to playing in the league.
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Ryan Parent is an NHL defenseman? He played 4 NHL games thi syear.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
But he has more of a resume then DSOD and usually these things are not coincidental. And that is not me saying it is the league. They both cam into the league in 2005.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Not coincidental? How about: One was a first round pick and one was a third. First round picks are given more opportunities to prove they belong, whether or not they do.
As far as “the league” saying Parent is an NHL player… no, it’s not. Of Parent’s 106 NHL games, 102 of them came in Philadelphia. Of Syvret’s 59 NHL games, 27 came in Philadelphia. So… Philadelphia said Parent was an NHL defenseman until they realized… he’s not. Philadelphia said Danny Syvret was an NHL defenseman until he got hurt. Then Anaheim said he wasn’t, and Philadelphia once again showed he is.
But all of this is missing the point: Danny Syvret has shown that he can succeed in the NHL. Ryan Parent has not. Just counting games doesn’t tell you anything except what organizations think of a player, and after watching Parent play during last year’s playoffs, I think it’s clear that what organizations think isn’t always reality.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew you would be back.
Your not giving Parent the benefit of injury? He has had chronic back problems. Were they ever in the same training camp. If so one earned the spot and one has not. Geoff I hope he turns out to be friggin bobby orr but he hasn’t done enough to impress the powers that even in injury relief he can get minutes.
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He hasn’t?
Again, you’re using coaches/GMs decisions to prove one has NHL talent and one doesn’t. When both play 4 regular season NHL games this year, isn’t the whole GP argument lost in talking about who is an NHL defenseman? I mean, if we’re going back across 5 years, then Mike Rathje is more of an NHL defenseman than Ryan Parent.
Last year, Danny Syvret severely outplayed Ryan Parent in the NHL. But you dont’ care about this, because Ryan Parent played more. That’s severely flawed logic, since you’re ignoring evidence of talent while making an evaluation of talent.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t even give a rats ass about Parent he was an arbitrary example but the bottom line is that Syvret can’t crack an NHL line up and that means I don’t consider him in the moving forward plans of the team. I am sure a ton of AHL players had good corsi, etc. and never made the NHL but it means nothing if he ain’t going to crack the line up. I don’t make the scouting rules but their are dozens of people who do this for a living that haven’t sung his praises enough or he would have made the team already.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Then why did he play over healthy NHL players Oskars Bartulis, Nick Boynton, and Matt Walker? And prospect Erik Gustafsson?
You’re argument boils down to: “He hasn’t played enough, therefore he isn’t good enough, except for all those NHL players he played over and how well he played in the NHL.”
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
So then I will expect him to fill the empty spot left by SOD next year. You convinced me he is a legitimate NHL defenseman. He is anonymous at best contributing nothing but his zone starts are a killer.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
But then we’re back to: There’s a difference between “not an NHL defenseman” and “not good enough to crack the Flyers’ lineup”.
I’d much rather Kevin Marshall as the #6 defenseman, but that’s me :)
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
What? Really? You git that from what? Besides the statisticians telling you this.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
THIS WAS A TRUE EMBARASSMENT i would love to no what danny brier thinks , i bet the little trader regret leaving buffalo were the fans loved him and the team playes with more heart than iv ever seen,,,its to bad he got greedy because the sabres will be winning the cup soon …..its to bad the sabres got a raw deal with the officiating …because the truth is the hockey world got cheated and had to watch this pittiful display ..buffalo woulda won at least a game on heart alone…philly has nowere to go but down hahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
breathe
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Bob.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this made my day better. Thanks.
Briere is 5-6 years ago man. Do you stalk your ex’s on facebook years later too? Briere is happy where he is.. Ive been to Buffalo, it’s like a big homeless shleter. I guarantee you he has NO regrets, considering he sleeps on a bed of money…
by Gonzotatcics on May 8, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When Briere tied Gretzky’s point total for playoff scoring last season in the midst of one of the most amazing runs hockey has seen, he was definitely pining for a Buffalo first round exit.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 8, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That woody picture is really, really creepy
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoever said having a strong defense and a solid 4 line depth last summer hasn’t seen the 2010-2011 Flyers in action. sigh
Or has may key players injured…
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 9, 2011 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions
.,,in addition to not using the healthy ones correctly.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 9, 2011 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Im having a hell of a time schooling this guy on facebook. He’s trying to say we should trade Carter, then he said that Nash will trade Rinne to us.
Samesis
You would say that, Bud from Tennessee
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Nashville management is cheap. Rinne has about a $2.5 cap hit as I recall. Rinne is one of the 3 finalists for the Vezina (this was announced last week). I am something of a Nashville apologist, but my comment has nothing to do with that.
Set your JVR in 2011.
I’m not a Nashville apologist, and I’ll happily agree that Nashville will probably laugh and hang up the phone if people call about Rinne.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 8, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
$3.4 mil, signed through next year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 8, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Now, Lindback…
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by Travis Hughes on May 9, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Something that occurred to me
06/07: didn’t make playoffs
07/08: lost in ECF
08/09: lost in ECQF
09/10: lost in SCF
10/11: lost in ECSF
There’s only one outcome we haven’t seen in the last 5 years. So I think next year’s the year.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on May 8, 2011 10:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Excellent logic. :) Rec’d.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 9, 2011 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Bye Bye Shelley
No Shelley, jacking Glencross & Babchuk up to 2.5 (just to make it easy) & actually welcoming Ville back into our good graces.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Curtis Glencross ($2.500m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.500m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Ville Leino ($2.500m)
Darroll Powe ($0.800m) / Zenon Konopka ($0.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.950m)
Blair Betts ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Anton Babchuk ($2.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Danny Syvret ($0.700m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Ray Emery ($1.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,831,655; BONUSES: $1,700,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $568,345
And remove Carter from Richards’ line. I don’t like looking at it
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that, much like my losing Versteeg, was inadvertent.
We can keep Versteeg, but that means Ville’s got to go.
Hmm. Can it be my steamed clam instead?
by mantis toboggan on May 8, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Regular Season Stats by Month & Versteeg Factor?
Here’s the Flyers record by month: (w-l-otl)
Oct: 6-4-1
Nov: 9-2-3
Dec: 8-4-1
Jan: 10-2-0
Feb: 7-4-1
Mar: 6-5-4
Apr: 1-2-2
Total: 47-23-12
Flyers record pre-Versteeg: 36-11-4
Flyers record with Versteeg: 11-11-7
Not blaming Kris, considering other factors (injuries, etc), but I am throwing this out for discussion. Was this a good move by management in February? Did it hurt the team for this year? Long run?
I’m completely torn on him.
He’s a very good player, but never seemed to fit in properly during his time here so far. Does that mean he couldn’t end up fitting well here, if he were here from the beginning of the season? I don’t know. I don’t envy the front office in having to figure out which way to go with him – both keeping him and getting rid of him make sense.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 9, 2011 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions
If he changes a lot about his game then i’d keep him, but if he keeps turning the puck over i’m gonna have an aneurism
Danny Fist-Pump Strikes Again!!!
by MeszarosKillsPeople on May 9, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the turnovers weren’t cool.
More broadly, though, was he underwhelming because he moved on from two different teams in less than a season before arriving here, or was Chicago a place where his skill set worked really well and might not work as well anywhere else?
Really difficult to say – like I said, I don’t envy the front office’s decision. There will be blame/credit for either decision.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on May 9, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully there is a time where we start to blame the players instead of always the coach. Some are saying to keep the players, go for a new coach. Alright thats cool. What happens if they dont play for that coach/ dont like him either ect? Fire the new coach and go for another one? Yea, Lavy didnt have the best postseason, but the players played like shit anytime they could. I think its about time we start to have a long hard look at the players on this team and really decide if they are good enough to win it.
Gus Supporter.
One of the points of this article was that the coach did not put the players in the best situations to succeed. If a coach screws up the match ups this badly…something has to be said about it.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Don, do you really think the way the match ups wound up in hind sight were ill conceived? The Bruins fans that have been hanging around even said as much that Chara has trouble with smallish speedy forwards. And any defensive match ups were doomed from the start. Carle was lost, SOD was out of gas in March, Mez was reverted back to his wandering ways and DSOD we hardly new you.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Yes.
1. I think the Bruins fans were generalizing and trying to come up with a rationale for the Habs success. I don’t think there is any proof to that in general, just something that is easy to say. The Habs were successful because of the PP.
2. Even if he does have problems with small speedy forwards, he didn’t have a problem with Briere. At some point, it’s a coaches job to move Briere away from Chara as much as possible.
3. The biggest loss was Carter. Having carter in the lineup gives the Flyers 2 lines capable of playing shutdown minutes, with one of them also excelling with Corsi. Lavy was exposed without Carter and never adjusted.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
So is that all Lavvy’s fault?? I think we both believe he should be here next season and the team essentially remains the same.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I’m not saying fire Lavy. but yes, it is Lavy’s fault…at the very least, it’s the coaching staff’s fault. It’s their jobs to put the players in the best situations to succeed.
So yes M, yes, for the love of god, yes, it’s the coaching staff’s fault.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
They misplayed the unfortunate hand they were dealt.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I’m not saying the coaching staff is the only thing to blame…I’m saying it was an issue, and a major one if not corrected moving forward. I don’t believe in coaches that don’t believe in matching lines. Lavy get dominate din that department for 2 series doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy feeling about it. It makes me feel like the regular season matchups were more about the Flyers depth and player performance than it was about Lavy’s ability to properly match lines. I’m hoping this is just an over reaction on my part.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
I think those things are always related to coaches success. Tortarella was a genius until he lost Habi. Watch how Mike Babcock becomes over rated without Lidstrom and the old guard of depth and talent.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
It’s one thing if you are matching up to the best of your ability but don’t have the talent to pull it off…it’s another thing to get them wrong. The Flyers didn’t have the depth, nor did their coach put the best match ups out there. I don’t look at things as black and white…I don’t discredit coaches for silly things, but his match up and zone starts make me criticize his choices int his series…not sure what’s unfair about that.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
But isnt this the excuss everyone has for every coach? Sadly nowdays, its not that the players just didnt play well, its the coach not putting the players in positions to play well.
Gus Supporter.
No it’s not an excuse. It’s something that is directly under his control and independent of how his players execute. It’s one thing to get the matchups you want, then to have the players play poorly. It’s a different story when you put the players insituations they don’t play well in…like the HBL line getting the most Dzone starts outside of the 4th line. That should not happen, and is directly under the coaches control.
I’m not saying the team played well. But the matchup issues and zone starts fall squarely ont he coaching staff as they are independent of player results.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
I’m thinking you don’t understand what matchups mean…let me know if I need to clarify further.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Well thats kinda rude. I know what matchups are. Im a regular poster on many other hockey websites. I just disagree on blaming it on matchups MORE than the players. Obviously matchups are important, and the Briere line taking defensive zone faceoffs are a no-no, the other problems on the team, especially, the “super defense” we have not playing super defense.
Gus Supporter.
Yea how is it Lavvy’s poor match up why Mez is chasing Krecji all over the rink. Or Hartnell not going to the net hard and Leino doing nothing which led to Briere getting slapped around by Chara. He made some glaring mistakes but the guys just didn’t even play at an expected NHL level.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Why are these two things mutually exclusive? Why does one get lessened by the other?
The players sucked. And Lavy sucked. Why do both of you have to say “But, but, but, don’t blame the coach!”? We’re blaming BOTH.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No I am not saying don’t blame the coach but from the start just playing devils advocate from the coaches perspective. I think coaches get too much credit when the team is winning and too much blame when they suck.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I agree with this entirely.
But “how is it Lavvy’s [sic] poor match up why Mez is chasing Krecji all over the rink”? Because Mez shouldn’t be facing Krejci! Timonen/Coburn should be.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
In theory getting exactly the right match up on the ice at the perfect times is the goal but your never going to get this 100% and it is probably easier to swap on the fly forwards to go against d then getting d to go against a certain O.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
And nobody is saying he sucks because he didn’t get 100% matchups. Don’t take it to hyperbole, M.
He didn’t even get 50% matchups. He put his worst defensive line out in the defensive zone, and he put them out against the Bruins’ best offensive line. So why are you trying to argue that “he can’t be 100% perfect”, when nobody is arguing that, and it’s blatantly obvious he was terrible?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Did he put them out there as a match up or did they find themselves out there at the time of a goal is what I am saying. Can’t dispute the end result but how they got there is somewhat arbitrary to me.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
That would require going through the play-by-play logs, but the fact that the forwards Briere faced most often that game were Krejci and Lucic (39% of the time) while starting his shifts in the defensive zone more often than the offensive show that Lavy either got outcoached when he dictates the matchups, didn’t pay attention to the matchups on the ice, or purposefully put the Briere line in the toughest of situations.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrongly we know at this point but maybe he thought he would try to out score that line. He figures the kind of offensive zone pressure the HBL creates will diminish the energy of the Bruins line and it didn’t happen. Just grasping here of course.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Yeah, that’s the problem. Any rationale is grasping at straws that aren’t there.
If Briere’s line started in the offensive zone against that line, sure. But they didn’t. He asked guys who can’t play defense to push the play forward against the Bruins’ toughest players.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t find it but wasn’t there a chart saying match up on the ice when goals were scored? Was every goal krecji scored on against Mez?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I didn’t see this chart if there was one…
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 9, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought there was a chart of personnel on the ice at the time of chances or goals or something.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
I was asking because you seemed to miss the point, and I was offering to explain.
It’s okay to criticize the coach for his clear mistakes just like it’s okay to criticize the team for the clear breakdowns. I’m not sure what you problem is with that line of thought.
The criticisms in the article of Lavy are his clear mistakes that are not based on player performance. they aren’t pointed to as the sole reasons they lost.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
And I know that. I guess Im just tired of the “Fire Coach x” Instead of going through coaches like a cheap hooker, I think we should start to look at the core of this team first.
Gus Supporter.
But you have to accept criticisms of things that fall squarely on the coaching, and are independent of player performance. You also have to accept that criticism doesn’t mean fire.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
I wasn’t not accepting criticisms’ of the coach. Like I said in my post, I DIDNT think Lavy had a good postseason. My post was in regards to those, who are present on here, wanted Lavy to be fired. I think the firing of Lavy would have a negative effect on this team. It would almost be like the players controlled the team instead of the coach.
Gus Supporter.
time for a change...
time for an overhaul…. keep: Richards, JVR, Claude, Carter, Mezaoros, Coburn, Bob, Carle, Versteeg, Leino…dump hartnell, shelly, carcillo… biggest problems: worn out parts… pronger, timonen… timonen not so much but if pronger is on a slide that’s a bad thing….
by Elmo the faithful fan on May 9, 2011 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
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