Grading the 2011 Philadelphia Flyers: Scott Hartnell
by Travis Hughes on Jun 14, 2011 2:38 PM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Season Grades
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PrintWe continue our annual, player-by-player look at the 2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers. In no particular order, we'll analyze one player per day (or so) over the next few weeks. Up next, the man with a six different helmet sizes, Scott Hartnell.
If the stats line on the post looks funny to you, try signing up for a BSH account and opting for the "Wide" view. It'll brighten your day, we promise.
Scott Hartnell
#19 / Left Wing / Philadelphia Flyers
6-2
210
Apr 18, 1982
10/11 Salary: $4.2 million
11/12 Salary: $3.7 million
11/12 Cap Hit: $4.2 million
Linemates: Danny Briere, Ville Leino (66.56%)
Depth Chart Ranking: No. 1 LW
Expectations: I think the overwhelming expectation for Hartnell's season was to just have him build upon his 2010 playoff run. It's not a secret that he played poorly during the 2009-10 regular season, and he even said as much at various points during the year. In last year's grade, we credited him for stepping up in the playoffs, putting his issues in the rear view mirror and becoming a vital player in the Flyers' run to the Eastern Conference Finals.
Building upon that run and keeping up the chemistry with Ville Leino and Danny Briere was key to having success in 2010-11 for Hartnell.
***
Another year has passed, and the chatter about Scott Hartnell's future in Philadelphia continues. If you were to poll Flyers fans right now on which player they'd like to see traded to accommodate goaltender Ilya Bryzgalov, I'm pretty sure Hartnell and Kris Versteeg would come close to the top of that list, if not finish right at the No. 1 spot.
And it's understandable, especially in Hartnell's case. He gets paid a lot of money to do what he does, and he can score to be sure. 25 goal scorers aren't easy to come by, but on this Flyers team, Hartnell seems disposable or replaceable.
Maybe that shouldn't be held against him, as his 25 goal production is about average for his price bracket -- on the upper end would be Milan Lucic, for example. Maybe he just gets lost in the crowd of 20-plus goal scorers on the team and we take him for granted. But it just feels like something is missing with Hartnell's game.
He's not the best defensive forward in the world and takes a million penalties (not to mention the issues with basic skating), but I'm beginning to think that perhaps our expectations were too high for him, probably because they were so raised with the performance of that line in the 2010 playoffs. Fair or not, Hartnell didn't seem to meet those expectations either way this season, but this is admittedly a weird one to grade.
Grading criteria: We assign grades on a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being the best. We base our grades on expectations, execution on those expectations and a player's overall potential. A 10 means that the player had a fantastic, expectation-surpassing season. A 1 means that he was horrible and needs to go. Like, yesterday.
The grade: We're going to leave Hartnell's grade up to you. I don't know where on the scale to put him. I feel as though I could justify a 3 or a 4 for several reasons, and I feel like I could justify a 7 or an 8 for several reasons. Cop out? Perhaps, but we all (myself included) hate my grading anyway.
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I think it was broken. I reset it.
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by Travis Hughes on Jun 14, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone was hacking all the SBN polls at DBTB so it might be that.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
Sabres took the scenic route, but they still MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!1
He falls down, he takes a zillion stupid penalties, and he mostly scores by having pucks hit him and bounce in. That said, that’s what I expected of him. 4.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
4
gave him a 5 to start for his play. He is often awesome as he is often terrible. Any other time he is just somewhere in between. Then i took 1 point away for his cap hit being too high for that kind of play.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 14, 2011 2:58 PM EDT reply actions
5
Though admittedly I am not much of a Hartnell fan at all. Maybe it is because his production gets lost in the shuffle on this team and his skating issues are comical.
Also, I read all SB Nation blogs all the time in wide view. I find it so much better than the standard narrow view.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
He got a 5 from me, since my preseason prediction was:
Hartnell will score 23 goals but fail to reach 50 points
Or when looking at the under-performance of the team in 09-10:
Looking through Hartnell’s previous seasons, he’s a career 40-50 point scorer. Only once did he score more than 48 points in a season and that was (the red line in the chart above) when he scored 60 points. Hopefully Hartnell turns some of those assists into goals, but 45 points is what should be expected from Hartnell.
Looks good to me. Met expectations.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 3:58 PM EDT reply actions
Good Rating. I get it now, 5 means “Met Expectations” so a 1 would be “Didn’t Mean Any Expectations”, 10 exceeds expectations greatly. Is the scale logarithmic, meaning if Hartnell doubled his expectations he would get a 6? Doubled again, a 7?
I ask, because I am uncertain of the “grading” and if it had any association to value? Meaning, if Hartnell was paid $1 he would be a 10, and if paid $7 he would get a 1.
by NickFotiu4HOF on Jun 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s what you expected of him regardless of cap hit.
by mantis toboggan on Jun 14, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Cap hit factors in to my expectations…so it’s a matter of perspective.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Really, though? I mean you know what kind of player Hartnell is, I just don’t see how see how the contract he signed 4 years ago factors into what you expected of him this season.
by mantis toboggan on Jun 14, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes really though. It provides me a nice starting point for similarly paid players.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Ok, I just think grading that way takes some of the emphasis away from the player and puts it on the organization. It gives a fairer representation of his actual value but doesn’t reflect my actual expectations for him. Essentially semantics and two different ways to grade. My way – 5, your way – 4
by mantis toboggan on Jun 14, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah…if we had a value for organization grading to go along with this I would separate the 2. Since we don’t I build the contract in to my expectations.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
So you’re saying we need 108 grades, A/A-/B+/B/B-/C+/C/C-/D+/D/D-/F for how his value to the organization and 1-9 for how he performed relative to what you expected coming into the year (with 5 being average, obviously, instead of this 1-10 crap where average is 5.5).
I’m on board with that. I give Hartnell a 4C-. He’s a producer, but not up to his cap value. And I expected a little more out of that line this year.
But just because a guy signs a contract doesn’t mean he should, or could play up to, or down to that level. It’s hardly the fault of the player for getting a big contract when they don’t deserve it. Blame the idiot GM that gave it to them.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
This isn’t about assigning fault, it’s about how I go about grading. You don’t like it…tough cookies. It’s not like Hartnell is the only overpaid guy in that range, and frankly he isn’t even that over paid.
Here’s another way to think about it, say Nodl plays on the 1st line next year, do you expect him to play like a first liner or be solid defensively? Regardless of how you set your expectations, I guarantee some of it is out of that players control…how dare you, that’s not fair to the player.
Teaching Travis how to Dougie since 2011.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Yup, 5 is met expectations, 10 is “I couldn’t have ever expected that” and 1 is “holy crap, he couldn’t have played worse”.
As far as cap hit goes, I think it goes into people’s expectations if anything.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Got it, so the rating is of how he performed to my cap expectations for that player.
by NickFotiu4HOF on Jun 15, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily. Just how he performed relative to your expectations for that player. If you expected more due to his cap hit, playoffs, previous regular season, amount of hair he has, whatever. However you formulate expectations, if he met those expectations, it’s a 5. Adjust accordingly.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I gave him a six only because he rebounded nicely from his lousy 2009-10 season. He met my expectations, as Geoff said, but there were times he was the HBL guy who pissed me off the LEAST. And that’s odd, because he used to piss me off the most often until Ville Leino showed up.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
He got a 7 from me because he does exactly what he’s supposed to. Is he paid to much? yes, but he still performs the role he’s supposed to perfectly.
http://restorations.bandcamp.com/
I’ve been leaving the cap hits out of the equation with my votes, because we know exactly what they are going to be. I think I agree with others that Hartnell did exactly what we expected of him this season. I opted for a 5 instead of a 6 simply because he seemed to fall a little more than usual this season.
That said, I wish we could trade him for a pick or a winger with half the cap hit.
I leave the cap hits out of it because I think we’re grading the player’s performance not the team’s choice of employment of the player. I’ll never penalize a player’s performance grade because he was smart enough to swindle some extra cash out of the team who signed him.
What can't Giroux do?
Yea, I agree completely.
I feel like it came up a lot with the Versteeg votes, but regardless of his salary, I think we all expected more out of him, so it’s easy to understand the difference in grading between the two players.
Are we going to grade Leighton’s 2.5 games? I can’t wait to see that.
by hebrew hammer on Jun 14, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Leighton can be graded. I’d give him a 5, though. I expected him to be stuck in the AHL when he got back from his injury. So he met my expectations.
What can't Giroux do?
Yea, I would do the same, although before camp I expected we would see him in at least 30 games.
by hebrew hammer on Jun 14, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the salary goes into a lot of people’s expectations though.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I kind of depends on how you want to grade. Are you grading the player based on what you thought he was capable of or are you grading on the role he should fill based upon how the team is paying him. I’d rather grade the player based upon the player’s capabilities. I’m not one to blame a player for being overpaid (provided there isn’t a noticeable drop in effort) I’ll blame management for giving him that money.
What can't Giroux do?
Absolutely. But sometimes, the expectations go up or down depending on the money. Mostly, this applies to new acquisitions or new contracts as opposed to older contracts, but I think it’s fair to take that into consideration.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it just shows the problems with an “expectations” grading system. Its the same reason I hate that my job bases my raises on expectations- if my boss has unreasonable ones, I’m SOL.
Its a subjective measurement when we should use objective measurements.
Eagles next starting QB: "East-West Shrine Game Legend" Mike Kafka
Flyers: Sigh
Phillies:Gah enough with the injuries!.
Its a subjective measurement when we should use objective measurements.
What is that objective measurement?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a union guy – looking for time-in-grade to be the primary cause for promotion, not skill, or motivation, or anything else. That annoys me – I’m held up by the system, even though I’m doing the work equivalent to someone three grades (and $20k) above me. Makes me irritated enough to spend time posting during the day, and sometimes even daydreaming about standard deviation analysis of hockey players.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Jun 15, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
3
We made a drinking game out his real life game. Fall down… drink. Blind pass…drink. Blind cross ice pass…..drink twice.
I was hardly ever sober by the second period.
Any questions?
I gave him an 8 (I like the guy). Sure he has a heck of a contract, but hate homer for that. Hartnell produced well this season and missed only 2 or 3 games all season. He works perfect with Briere and whoever else you put on the line and plus he is usually the first to protect his line or whoever else is on the ice with him. He’s our only true PWF we have and parks his butt in front of the net. Don’t know what more people want from him, heck people even can make a drinking game from him falling down.
He exceeded your expectations this year?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
After the crappy season he had last year yes. 49 pts ain’t too shabby. Plus the unmeasureables i mentioned above.
by SkookFlyerfan on Jun 14, 2011 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
He had 44 points last year.
Not arguing, just surprised he exceeded expectations.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Eww… there’s a difference (in my mind at least) between a power forward and a big-body player. Hartnell has no power moves, and he falls down after passing too hard to no one in particular. That ain’t ‘power forward’ in my book. Timmy Kerr, yes. Scott Hartnell, no.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Jun 15, 2011 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Hit expectations on the head. He gets a five instead of a six because he did it with fairly easy minutes.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Because he doesn’t want us to say no?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2011 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
5D. Sure, he’s meeting expectations, but what was the organization thinking when they brought him on?
Bob.
by The Dark on Jun 15, 2011 12:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, every school I went to, B+ was average.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Damn kids with your inflated grades …
/grumbling as I pull up my socks
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Jun 15, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I gave him a 9…based on the fact that Hartnell has helped make my blog famous and was one of 3 Flyers to give me an autograph this season. (Nodl and Shelley the other 2)
Ever wondered how a Flyers fan relaxes and tells jokes... www.DownGoesSpezza.com shows you the funny side of Flyerdom
by Down Goes Spezza on Jun 15, 2011 12:40 AM EDT reply actions
6
I’m by no means a Hartnell fan, but he slightly improved his points totals and slightly reduced his PIMs. What really boosts him to 6 is that I was not expecting him to cut his hair.
Mourning Gagne forever.
hahaha nice.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2011 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Hartnell’s time in Philadelphia is over.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
I hear he really likes the people and the weather in Winnipeg …
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by MaximumTalbot on Jun 15, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
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