Friday Morning Fly By: Ocean City Night In Venice Sounds Spectacular
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
in Morning Fly By
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- What can the Flyers expect out of Jaromir Jagr? We have a growing consensus: [FlamesNation]
- The Flyers finally announced they signed Tye McGinn to an entry-level contract: [Philadelphia Flyers] [CSNPhilly]
- Thank you, Google News: Ian Laperriere will be the Grand Marshal for Ocean City New Jersey's "Night in Venice Boat Parade". Simply amazing: [Cape May County Herald]
- Worried about Pronger? Here's a trade proposal to help allay your fears: [Philly Reign]
- A nice personal anecdote on why homophobic slurs have no place in society, let alone hockey: [Down Goes Spezza]
- An even better personal tale about being a gay Leafs fan: [PPP]
- Ugh, so who are the "easiest teams to root for"? You won't like the formula: [Puck Daddy]
- Have no fear, the Jets will be unveiling their logo soon. So stop sending them concepts: [Winnipeg Free Press]
- Reasons Steven Stamkos hasn't signed yet: [Down Goes Spezza]
- A great goal from an Israeli is now in the conversation for goal of the year: [Puck Daddy]
- This crazy video from the 1920s NHL is absolutely worth watching: [SBNation.com]
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Really like Yandle
And not a huge fan of Carle, but would not give up that much.
Although Bob’s use might not be too valuable, I’d hang on to him.
"I'd like to be remembered by Flyers fans as a player who played through injuries, and left it all on the ice." -CaptainMRichie18
I might do this trade, but Phoenix never would. They’re not unloading Yandle unless they just have to.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
agreed. i dont think they signed him to just trade him away and i dont think this trade would sit too well with the fanbase or look good on the GM . plus maybe i read it too quickly but isnt it contigent on Pronger being on LTIR? id prefer to hope against that.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 15, 2011 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t imagine them doing it at all. Didn’t they just give him the extension? And he’s on their top pair, isn’t he? The return would have to be insane for them to trade him.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t they just give him the extension?
Let’s askSetoguchiCarter about that.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
Yeah, I guess I just I don’t think SJ saw Setoguchi as being truly central to their core. Carter is probably a better example in all honesty, but at least his extension was signed months ago, rather than a week.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Has anyone seen an interview with Setoguchi? Maybe he knew the deal was in the works and it was essentially a sign and trade. I haven’t looked, so maybe he was blind sided. Just throwing out the possibility.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
You know it’s a business. It’s just tough to leave the guys and the family I know so well. Especially after just signing a new deal. It really hurts and puts a damper on the whole thing.
According to the Mercury News, he found out about the trade when Doug Wilson called him while he was out to dinner with his parents. According to Wilson, the first request for Seto was 24 hours before the trade.
Bob.
Really? I think Phoenix takes that and runs. Maybe even prying another piece just for shits and giggles.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah laughing all the way to the bank. That’s a terrible deal for us.
"I repeat we have normality." She turned her microphone off — then turned it back on, with a slight smile and continued: "Anything you still can’t cope with is therefore your own problem."
If we’re gonna rape Phoenix and leave them howling, how about this:
Hartnell and Timonen for Korpikoski, Boedker, and Ekman-Larsson. That’s $10.5m going their way, and $5.1m coming to the Flyers. The Flyers continue to get younger two-way forwards and a replacement for Timonen (rather than Yandle replacing Pronger), and Phoenix gets an established winger for Turris and a true #1A defenseman. Then the Flyers sign Vinny Prospal to a short deal to play wing with Briere, and voila!!!
I love fantasies, don’t you?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Jul 15, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not really looking at it from the “is it even value on paper” angle, but rather the “do the Yotes want to risk angering their fanbase for trading away somebody they see as a core guy” angle. That’s why I don’t feel like Phoenix will do it.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha, they’re not in a position to risk making their position worse, though.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Oy it’s early, I guess I need more coffee before I can write anything intelligible.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that they’re done after this season, so I don’t think anyone really cares at this point
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
I agree with that, but trading away franchise players doesn’t drive up the sales price for somebody who wants to move them. We just agree to disagree about the trade, that’s all.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, agree to disagree. But where do they go?
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
by FlyerFan139 on Jul 15, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
No way to know for sure, I guess, but 3 years is long enough. I don’t see them being owned by the league, or still in Phoenix, when the next CBA starts. I know I’m personally ignoring 90% of the realignment proposals the bloggers are suggesting because I’m just not expecting them to be in Phoenix next year. Whether it’s Quebec or Kansas City or Hamilton or some unknown future destination, who knows, but my gut tells me the league isn’t going to be too happy about being a laughing stock if they get more national attention during the other lockout(s).
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think the league will survive another lockout.
"I repeat we have normality." She turned her microphone off — then turned it back on, with a slight smile and continued: "Anything you still can’t cope with is therefore your own problem."
by Mike B on D on Jul 15, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I guess I really wasn’t clear there; by “other lockout(s)” I was referring to the NBA/NFL potential ones.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Houston! Houston!
On the Mike Weber bandwagon!
I hate Christian Ehrhoff because he should have been Tomas Kaberle.
Can Hunter Pence skate?
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 15, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Just to throw a totally crazy idea out there, the largest ice hockey arena in North America that doesn’t have an NHL team is the Rose Garden in Portland, Oregon.
Bob.
Portland
If memory serves me correct (and it rarely does) I think Portland was one of the cities that tried to get the Pens to move to them back when they were talking about moving the team out of Pitts. KC, Portlans, Seattle, and I think one other city were all in the running.
I heard about Kansas City, Las Vegas, and Houston, but those are just the ones I remember. It’s entirely possible there were additional ones on the Pacific coast that I either didn’t hear about or don’t remember.
Bob.
Portland being in the mix has definitely been talked about in the past, I just don’t remember if it was the Pens or if it was a different situation.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 16, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that angle.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think they would jump at it, personally.
Yandle outpaced most of their forwards last year with 59 points, so he’s a big part of their offense. Only one Coyote, Shane Doan, topped him — and that was by a single point. Does Maloney value Bob that much? I guess that’s an unknown factor. But I don’t think they’re looking to move him at all.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
As discussed below, I think Carle is the centerpiece to that, not Bob.
But yes, I should have clarified that I think that is a great deal for Phoenix in terms of talent-for-talent, but maybe not with what they want to do.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Yandle is the future of the Yotes blueline. He is going to be a Norris candidate soon enough. I don’t see them making that deal; especially after they lost their star goalie.
by CSneer on Jul 15, 2011 9:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Though Carle is a valuable defenseman, he works his best magic being paired with Pronger.
I stopped reading after that.
by hebrew hammer on Jul 15, 2011 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t stop reading, but yeah that line stood out like a neon sign. He also assumes Voracek is here for only one year.
There is a possibility of that. We could just be saying, “We’ll give you a chance here, but if you don’t perform, hello draft pick compensation!”
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
True. I was more annoyed with his idea that money from expiring contracts will be used to extend Coburn and JVR, not taking into account that those roster spaces still need to be filled by someone else at God-only-knows what Holmgren will pay.
I’d say JVR’s cap hit next season fills the jump from 64.3 to whatever
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
If it jumps. New CBA and the already ridiculous floor might mean it evens out.
by hebrew hammer on Jul 15, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
That ‘who are the easiest teams to root for’ thing is stupid. You can’t quantify that.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, he will also always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 15, 2011 7:49 AM EDT reply actions
Damn intangibles.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on Jul 15, 2011 8:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, given that players can Grit Factor (g), Likeability (l), Douchebagginess (d), and Star Power (s), it’s possible to calculate individual players’ Root Factor (rf) with the formula rf=(g*l*s)/d. From there, you sum the r factors of each team’s players, and divide by a billion if they’re the Penguins.
/s
Bob.
Good morning all.
That Yotes trade is pretty special
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 15, 2011 9:21 AM EDT reply actions
Yotes Trade
I wouldn’t give up the first, but I’d do it otherwise.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
Would Phoenix do it for Bob and Carle alone?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably no…
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
by FlyerFan139 on Jul 15, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
If I were PHX I’m not even sure I’d do it with the First. No way PHX does it without the First.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I had the same thought, but when the first two comments were that it was a no-brainer for them, I thought maybe I had Yandle pegged wrong.
Has anyone from a PHX perspective said it was a no-brainer? Maybe PHI fans overvalue their guy? I don’t know. I just know that Yandle is young, with a lot of upside still, coming off a great year. Then you factor in the PR aspect and I don’t see how it makes sense. I know you guys think Bob is good, and he definitely does have talent, but I don’t think a young goalie that got worn down when he tried to handle a Number 1 job is going to be the center piece of a trade that brings a Norris-Caliber D back. Unless, of course, you try for something like Bob for Erik Johnson. COL could be interested in something like that…
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I think Bob + Carle + 1st is a great value for Phoenix on paper.
But when you factor in PR, the Smith and LaBarbera contracts, and the presumed value of the Flyers 1st round pick (late first?), it might not happen. To me, on paper, that’s good value for Phoenix.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess it depends on how you value Bob. You know how I feel about the goalie market, there’s no reason to make a G a centerpiece of a trade, especially a young one. PHX has a promising goalie prospect in the organization, so maybe they don’t want to crowd him? I’d say depth is always good, but not at the expense of Yandle.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I think it has more to do with how Geoff values Carle actually.
I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.
Yeah, I know he’s high on Carle. Carle’s a fine player, but he’s got one year left and then UFA. Not exactly a great spot for PHX. They just locked up their guy, no need to go right back into negotiations for a player that isn’t quite as good.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Oh I’m not saying I disagree, I’m just saying I think when Geoff is weighing it out, he is weighing it a lot more on Carle to make up for the gap in value. The others, I think you are right to say they are over weighting Bob.
I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.
Yeah, Don has it right.
I understand where you’re coming from as well. Yandle is clearly a very solid player. I simply put more stock in Carle than most. And while Yandle is their cornerstone at this point, the rest of their D is underwhelming, at least relative to Carle.
So they may not want to move Yandle at all, or they may want to tinker with the pieces to fit their organization a bit more – sadly, I don’t know the weaknesses and strengths of the team – but on a D-corps with Roszival, Klesla, Morris, and Aucoin, I think Carle fits in real nice as a) better than all those guys; b) younger than all those guys; and c) cheaper than Yandle and Roszival.
Bobrovsky may not have a spot with LaBarbera and Smith but… I think at worst, Bob is a 1B, while Smith is at best a 1B. He isn’t the centerpiece, he’s the crown. Again, Phoenix may not want to acquire a goalie, but on paper, for straight up value, I think Bob + a 1st bridges the gap between Carle and Yandle.
I also don’t think your fears of Carle’s UFA years are important, since Carle likely won’t get more than $4.25m, which will still be less than Yandle. Maybe a sign and trade is ordered by Phoenix, but that’s a small hurdle, IMO.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I also don’t think your fears of Carle’s UFA years are important, since Carle likely won’t get more than $4.25m, which will still be less than Yandle.
While I agree, I don’t know if Carle will want to stay with that organization, which would be my bigger concern personally rather than the cap hit.
I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.
That’s also a fair question. Even if Carle’s salary is only 4.25, which I think may be optimistic, it’s likely going to be the result of a bidding war. When was the last time a bidding war worked out in PHX’s favor?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
It doesn’t have to be a bidding war though, if he signs before July 1.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but that gets back to finding out how intent he is on testing the market. Even if he doesn’t go to July 1, if his agent has any skill Carle is still going to end up with a contract around market value (think of Laich). Why would Carle take a hometown discount for a team he spent one year with? Seems unlikely, so PHX is still at the whims of the broader market.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Well that’s a lot of what ifs to get there.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, tons of ifs all around. I guess at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that if I held Yandle on his deal, I wouldn’t trade him away for that package, so it’s easier to see the “Ifs” that make the trade look worse. You are higher on Carle than most, and you don’t seem to think the trade is unfair, so it’s easier for you to see how it works out for PHX.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Right.
And I don’t know enough to put myself in Phoenix’s shoes to properly evaluate their needs. But I love me some Matt Carle.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob is obviously better than what PHX has in net, and Carle is better than what they have on D after Yandle, no disagreement.
But it’s disingenuous to say that Carle being cheaper is a major factor. Yeah, he’s cheaper than Yandle, but he’s not as good. Roszival is a bad deal, and PHX didn’t sign it but they have to live with it. Carle is going to get a raise next year, so that cheap factor is going to be decreased. You can say “Carle likely won’t get more than 4.25M” but that’s just a guess. Was Leino likely to get 4.5 × 6? If Carle ends up one of the 3 top D on the FA market, he could end up costing quite a bit. There’s also the matter of needing to know what the next CBA is going to look like. Hard to project how you are going to sign a UFA without knowing the CBA restrictions. Yandle is locked up, will not be subject to a bidding war, and if the CBA restricts the cap he’ll have his salary rolled back commensurately.
A sign and trade would definitely change things. Do you think Carle would sign and trade? Do you think he wants to go to UFA and test the market? These are things we need to know. And I think it’s fair to ask, given the Richards/Carter situation, whether or not Carle would even sign an extension with PHI at this point. You’d think he’d have to be in on the sign-and-trade from day 1 if it’s going to happen.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I think one of the most relevant things about these statements are the rumors that Coburn has an extension deal in place and worked out.
(Misfired Twitters on July 1st)
And that there are 2 top top quality young D-men UFAs coming off the Flyers next year.
1) Is this fueling Carle Trade rumors?
2) If it is percieved that the Flyers seem more intent on keeping Coburn does this lower Carles value as a trade piece? (Not that I want to see Carle or Coburn go)
personally
I think the Devils and Kovalchuk should now sue the NHL for age discrimination. They’re essentially saying he CAN’T play until he’s 44.
Go Devils
by FrankG929 on Aug 9, 2010 5:15 PM PDT
I never said it’s a major factor, I think it’s disingenuous to say something I didn’t say :)
I simply think your fears for Carle’s UFA status is a little much. If anything, I’d say the impact of the CBA helps the Coyotes with Carle as opposed to Yandle. Maybe everyone gets a cut, or the cap falls, or the floor falls, and suddenly, the inflated market we saw this year collapses, and Carle’s value plummets. The only thing in your final sentence to paragraph two that is a fact is that Yandle is signed. Which isn’t necessarily a good thing, especially if you are trying to sell.
Agreed entirely on your third paragraph though.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh, fair enough. I guess I assumed you meant it was an important factor just by bringing it into the discussion.
There’s definitely a lot of speculation about the new CBA and I agree it could go either way. Maybe it changes the landscape enough that Yandle’s deal looks more burdensome, even after a potential rollback. I doubt it though. The relative supply and demand of talent isn’t going to change, just the dollar figures attached to it. A puck moving D that can put up points like Yandle is still going to be highly coveted in the next CBA term so I suspect his deal will still look pretty fair when it’s all said and done.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
There is a lot of speculation, and Yandle is definitely a top-notch defenseman. I’m just saying the gap between him and Carle, talent wise, isn’t much.
All these additional factors go into the trade, of course, but there’s so much speculation I stayed out of it. On paper, I think it’s a good deal for Phoenix, but who knows? That also doesn’t mean if I was Phoenix, I’d take it. But In a purely talent for talent swap, if I’m Phoenix, I take it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Carle is as close to Yandle as you do, clearly. Saying the talent gap “isn’t much” is just not accurate, IMO. And Yandle has more upside, I think.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I’ll give you more upside, but I don’t want to get bogged down in a Yandle v. Carle debate since they play two different styles. But Carle was 3rd in the NHL in Pts/60 last year, Yandle 9th. So if it’s scoring people are looking for, they’re even.
If it’s power play scoring (hello, Hockey Wilderness), Yandle is better.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Although Carle was playing with much more offensive talent around him, as well.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
If you want to get into qualifiers, by all means. :)
But that would require me splitting hairs, which is kind of my point. The gap is not that big.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yandle also scored 10 more goals last season. /nitpick
I don’t know. I think Carle is a good player, no question. But in watching the Flyers games, he didn’t strike me as having as the same kind of dynamic impact on a game as Yandle. Of course, that could be due to the great differences between coaches and teams, but that’s my impression.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I wouldn’t disagree with this. As I said above, I think it depends what type of player you need. I think the Flyers need a Carle to balance out Pronger/Coburn/Meszaros, but they have Gus who isn’t yet there.
Yandle is definitely more of a game-changer than Carle, but that’s more of a style of play. Pronger is more dynamic than Timonen, but the gap between them isn’t small. I see the same thing with Yandle/Carle.
Now, down the line, that gap may (probably will) get bigger, but it isn’t too big.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
If we're going to start picking the nits out of the hairs that Geoff split...
Yandle had about 1/3 more shots than Carle at ES, 5.3 per 60 to 3.9 per 60. But he shot 6.3% to Carle’s 1.1%, which is what drove the gap in goals — and probably won’t be sustained.
On the other hand, Carle’s teammates shot 11.3% when he was on the ice. Had he played with Yandle’s 9.0%-shooting-teammates, his assist rate would’ve dropped from 1.34 per 60 to 1.06 per 60, which looks a lot more like Yandle’s 0.90
In other words, their ES scoring looks to be more or less a wash. It’s probably not even as much of a passer-vs-shooter discrepancy as the raw numbers suggest; once they’re cooked a little, they start to look pretty similar.
Don’t make me…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to point out the higher shooting %, since assists matter so much.
What do you prefer to use to look at comp and linemates? Because it looks to me like Yandle had worse linemates against tougher comp, as well.
To my eye test Yandle is actively generating scoring chances (and is encouraged by Tippett to do so) on a worse team, while Carle is benefiting from a better position.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Corsi Rel QoC is my go-to metric for competition, just for empirical reasons. I find that whenever I think I know the answer, CRQoC agrees with me, so I assume that in the cases where I don’t know the answer it’s telling me what I would have concluded if I had watched the player more.
I don’t use numbers for teammate stuff; I just haven’t dug into them yet to figure out whether I trust them. It’s pretty rare that I will mention quality of teammates in an analysis, and when I do, it’s usually based on looking up who the actual linemates were rather than a qualteam metric.
By Corsi Rel QoC, Yandle comes out ahead (.637, 3rd vs. .585 4th).
As far as Qualteam/Qualcomp, this holds true. But in the big picture, Philly had one of the most potent, well-rounded offenses last season, while Phoenix was limping along.
I only have Yahoo up, but Yandle’s shooting % seems well in line with his career average. Carle’s is low, but then it seems like the seasons where he played more than 60 games never yielded a shooting % that was very high to begin with.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
At this point we're splitting the nits' hairs
Here are their even strength shooting percentages from previous years:
09-10: Carle 4.2%, Yandle 7.3%
08-09: Carle 6.9%, Yandle 3.7%
07-08: Carle 0.0%, Yandle 1.9%
For the four-year total, Carle is at 3.1% and Yandle is at 5.2%. But given the variance (remember, we’re talking about under 100 shots most years), I’m not sure there’s a statistically meaningful difference yet.
Which doesn’t mean that they’re the same, just that I wouldn’t use numbers to argue a difference.
Fair enough.
This is one of those times I wish we had stats people who also watch Yandle all year could be able to put it in context.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I would also add that 07-08 is the first year Yandle really got his feet wet, with 43 games played. So four year difference is…well, they’re not the same age.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
OK I did some digging — sorry if this is annoying, I was interested.
Over the last three years, from age 22-24, Yandle’s ES production steadily increases, with no big fluctuation in on ice shooting percentage:
.99, 1.16, 1.21 P/60
While Carle seems to have made a big leap last season:
.76, .79, 1.37 P/60
You guys watch him all the time — did his game evolve to the next level, or was the shooting percentage of his teammates a big factor? I started to think that maybe I notice Yandle as a threat because Phoenix simply doesn’t have many, whereas Carle would be easier to overlook on a stacked team — like one gunman in an entire battalion. But it does seem to me like Yandle’s ES production over the last three seasons looks good.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
did his game evolve to the next level, or was the shooting percentage of his teammates a big factor?
I don’t think his game evolved, no.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 16, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, what?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, not the first two, but I saw this:
“I might do this trade, but Phoenix never would.”
“Really? I think Phoenix takes that and runs.”
“Yeah laughing all the way to the bank. That’s a terrible deal for us.”
And I thought maybe I was just way wrong on Yandle, who I would’ve thought was worth a good bit more than a #3/4 D, a goalie who had one decent year and is now a backup, and a late first round pick.
Basically: I’ve scarcely seen Yandle play, so I don’t really know what he is. But my impression was that it would’ve taken a lot more than a pile of second-tier values to get him.
I haven’t seen a bunch of Yandle either, but assuming that he’s a young, puck-moving D who is good in his own end – assumption just based on the Norris nom and general rep – he’d command a lot more than that on the trade market.
First pair puck-movers, especially young ones, are the gold standard in hockey. Even with the cap hit, if PHO started asking around, someone would offer them a lot more than Carle, Bob and a first.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
Pretty much where I’m at. He’s an elite asset, and they aren’t getting an elite asset back. Especially with the trouble PHX has keeping talent after the ELC, it’s important that they have him locked up.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
My problem is people making the assumption that Carle isn’t a First pair puck-moving young Defencemen.
personally
I think the Devils and Kovalchuk should now sue the NHL for age discrimination. They’re essentially saying he CAN’T play until he’s 44.
Go Devils
by FrankG929 on Aug 9, 2010 5:15 PM PDT
I don’t honestly care what you designate him as in terms of depth chart. Depth chart is so relative that it’s basically meaningless. Alzner and Carlson took on the tough competition for the Caps. Are they the “first pair?” Does that make Green a “second pair” D? Or does that make our D that played the toughest assignments the “second pair?”
I prefer not to overthink it. Yandle is a much better player and he’s locked up for 5 years. Carle is good, but not as good, and UFA next summer. PHX isn’t going to want to be in a UFA bidding war (see also, all of their damn UFAs).
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I don’t disagree with the logic of it from a trade perspective for PHX.
I’m just chiming in under the camp of people who seem to be 1) Undervaluing Carle, and 2) Making it All About Bob.
personally
I think the Devils and Kovalchuk should now sue the NHL for age discrimination. They’re essentially saying he CAN’T play until he’s 44.
Go Devils
by FrankG929 on Aug 9, 2010 5:15 PM PDT
But my impression was that it would’ve taken a lot more than a pile of second-tier values to get him.
I see Yandle play all the time, and I agree with this. I mean, maybe they need to save money and do something drastic, but otherwise I doubt it. Bob is still to some extent a gamble, a first will take a while to pan out to something (if it ever does), and people already discussed the unknowns around Carle’s future salary.
They know what Yandle brings to the table, he was willing to sign for five years even with all the Phoenix uncertainty, and he’s only 24 years old.
He also helped me win fantasy hockey. Everyone else had him undervalued. Woo.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I valued Yandle really highly in fantasy hockey, but I traded him for forward help.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Because you want Claude Giroux in your division?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, was that still a fantasy hockey comment? I know you weren’t saying put Giroux in your division, hence the italics, but if we are talking fantasy hockey still, I missed the part where I acquired Giroux.
Because that would have been sweet.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought we were talking about fan-created trade proposals and fantasy hockey, then I jumped back to imaginary deals.
But now that I think of it, Phoenix probably would want a good young forward signed to a contract.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
That’s kind of my point. haha
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
From the 1920’s video:
HOLY CRAP THAT ZAMBONI TECHNIQUE.
Sorry Travis, but that was certainly the best part of that video.
this.
that is the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen aaaaahaha
Proud provider of the PECO Power Play.
by coheedandtbs on Jul 15, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
From the Jagr article ...
He still positions himself well, hard to get knocked off the puck and sees the ice terrifically.
So … it’s a proven version of what everyone hoped Leino would be. And for only slightly more than we all agreed Leino was worth (I don’t think adding $0.3m to get an obvious HOF candidate is a bad deal).
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
So, Jagr’s games-played has gone down three straight years in the KHL. 55, 52, 49 I think were the numbers. According to Wikipedia, it’s a 56-game season, so that’s pretty decent durability, even if the numbers are trending down.
The last number equates to 87.5% of the total games.
If I set the GP over-under at 70 (~85%) for 2011-2012, what are you taking?
Patron saint of quality footwear.
Under, only because I think 70 is real close to the ceiling. I could see him doing it, but it’s more likely he does less than more.
Also, Alexei Morozov out-scored Jagr each of the last three years in the KHL, FWIW.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I have seen zero KHL games, so I have no idea how the games are usually paced or if the games are as brutal as the NHL. But the bit about “he can’t keep up when the pace quickens” bodes poorly.
Patron saint of quality footwear.
Right, I think he’ll be a PP specialist with soft minutes. Maybe a good fit for Briere’s line. I don’t think he’ll play much D and I’m sure he’ll have regular season games that he coasts through.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
So … pretty much the same as he did on the Caps and Rangers?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Jul 15, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Troof.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Jul 15, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is that by all accounts, that also describes Voracek. And if you put a Jagr-Briere-Voracek line on the ice, you’d better get them the hell off the second the other team touches the puck.
If that line ends up in their own end, you probably just want to send a couple guys out to help them, because the too many men penalty is probably less dangerous than a shift with those called upon to defend — at least on the PK you get two forwards who play defense instead of zero.
Ha. That’s great. What an interesting strategy.
So do you just try to tack one of them onto a line with a 2-way C and an opposite wing that can play some D?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I’m thinking Voracek goes with G just on the basis of age alone. If you can get chemistry there, you can set yourself up for several years. Jagr, not so much.
And the second part is just funny.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Jul 15, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Morozov also had more TOI for two of the last three years:
Morozov: 18:42 (49), 19:24 (50), 18:05 (53)
Jagr: 17:52 (55), 17:59 (51), 18:38 (49)
That second year, Jagr was on a low-scoring (for the KHL) Omsk team, where he led the team with 42 points in 51 games. This most recent year, Morozov was the #1 guy on Ak Bars, while Jagr was second fiddle to Roman Cervenka for Omsk – Cervenka had 31-30-61 in 51 games to Jagr’s 19-31-50 in 49 games.
His goal-scoring has slowly declined (.45 to .43 to .39 per game), while his assists have been all over (.51, .39, .63 respectively). Frankly, if we put him on a line with Briere and Hartnell, I’d expect his A rate to be high, since both of those guys are opportunistic scorers. I’d expect him to be somewhere around .3 goals per game in the NHL, based on another decline to between .33 and .35 at the KHL level, plus Gabe’s .9 conversion factor (which may or may not still be valid, but it’s the best guesstimate I have). I’d expect his assist rate to be down slightly, but probably still in the .55-.6 range, so my WAG is around .85 PPG for Jagr, or right at 70 points. I’m taking the under, but it’s based on:
1. assuming Jagr declines slightly in goal scoring, and has the usual KHL-NHL conversion factor
2. assuming his assists drop to .55/game
3. assuming he won’t play all 82 games
Bob.
Jagr was second fiddle to Roman Cervenka for Omsk
That doesn’t raise an eyebrow?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I definitely bet the under. He’s damn near 40, and wasn’t ever really known for his off-ice work ethic.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Jul 15, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I usually don’t enjoy those types of lists but the Stamkos one was tolerable. Picturing him one-timing astronauts made me chuckle and the Roloson line as well.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 15, 2011 10:35 AM EDT reply actions
And duh – he should obviously fear Downie the most. Pronger may hurt him, Cooke may injure him, but Downie being jilted may equate to some really nasty shit.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Jul 15, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
He once threw at his own son during a father-son game.
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 15, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's been up there long enough now
Travis, can you please remove
47 – 23 – 12
Streak: Lost 4
from the sidebar on the right side of the screen?
While you’re at it, can you fix the draft pick tracker and organizational depth chart
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
by FlyerFan139 on Jul 15, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m getting there. On the list of things to get done.
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by Travis Hughes on Jul 15, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You could’ve done that yourself this whole time, actually. :)
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Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Got goaltending? Searching since 1987.
by Travis Hughes on Jul 15, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nhl/story/15319211/kings-gm-fuming-at-oilers-over-smyth-trade-for-unfit-player
Another entry in the ’it’s a small world’ competition – at the end of the article, it’s all about Gagne, and in talking about LA he says that the best reference he got about the place was from Ian Laperriere.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
There’s a surprise on the masthead. Happy Friday.
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Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Got goaltending? Searching since 1987.
by Travis Hughes on Jul 15, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Awesome.
She is more than deserving of her own category on the Masthead.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Broad Street Hockey
So awesome, we even have our very own CBA Master.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Damnit, why do I have to write for a site with only two masthead columns…
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 15, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s what you get for being a Devils fan.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
actually cirrhosis is what I get for being a Devils fan.
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 15, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
So awesome, we even have our very own CBA Master.
Which is one more than the Flyers have, apparently.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
by doubleh on Jul 15, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Ouch
That’s a burn.
Rec’d as soon as I turn my laptop on again.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
by Chemistry66 on Jul 15, 2011 4:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Truly well deserved. This way, when other SBN sites link back to her CBA work, they won’t say, “Hey, why isn’t this person writing for a hockey site?” and snatch up the talent from under your noses, boys. She’s got a full NMC as I understand it.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
So what’s funnier; the fact that Travis gave me my own category or that I was the last to know about it? ;)
Thanks, everybody (esp. those that made it happen).
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 15, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Bryz it October nyet?
/Pun credits go to What The Pucking Puck
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Leaf's Fan Story
Wow. That was really poignant in light of recent developments within sports. The comments were also pretty enlightening (even flyerrob!) and some even posted their own stories about being gay and a hockey fan.
Of course, some asshole had to chime in and throw an insult toward Philly fans. /sigh
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
I am disappointed with the “anti-homophobia” articles. I feel, as a society, we are encouraging hyper-sensitivity and punishing though crimes. The unintended consequences is that people will start to foster double think and otherwise undermine the ability to express ourselves. Of course, insulting people, regardless of the term used is immoral and should be avoided.
I guess what I want to say is I sympathize with the authors, but at the same time let’s not kid ourselves that avoiding “homophobic” “misogynistic” “racist” or other “chauvinist” terms makes insulting or trash talking ok, it’s not and you should feel ashamed you need make words replace skill.
Seconded.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
re: your 2nd paragraph and trash talking
I think the Down Goes Spezza article Geoff linked to said it best.
Being polite and a civilized human being doesn’t have to be boring, it get just stretches the creative juices a little further, or hell, go by other cliche’d stereotypes. For instance, if you want to call an opposing player “soft” or a “not-tough” do what I’ve started doing, use original lines like “air puts up more resistance than you.” Seriously, it works just as well and you don’t have to worry about getting yourself in trouble. That last line, actually worked too well, the player I used it on, told me after the game that he didn’t get it at first and because of that, it was a slight distraction to him that he claimed caused him to make a bad pass and turn the puck over. If you want to insult a goalie, call him/her “worse than Toskala” or “you were ‘Leighton’ getting to that one.” Bad puns work wonders.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
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