Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Why I think I hate Flyers prospect camp, and other Day 2 observations

VOORHEES -- There's one feeling that permeates the air inside the Skate Zone, as you stand along the glass or sit on the cold metal bleachers watching players that you've mostly never heard of or seen slap pucks around in black and white jerseys. 

This is boring. 

Yep, today was honestly my first prospect camp experience, and I have to say that after four hours of standing against a wall watching a bunch of kids run through drills, I haven't exactly come away with any more knowledge or anything poignant to say. And how could I, really?

Anybody who sits there and says that they were impressed with this guy or didn't think much of that guy is lying to you. Well, maybe not lying, but certainly not giving you the entire story. These are judgments made off of line rushes and stickhandling drills. Oh, and maybe five one-on-one or two-on-one attempts at the net per player.

If someone is saying they were impressed with Brayden Schenn, it's because he roofed a beautiful shot on Brad Phillips (Brad f'n Phillips), and then followed it up with a pretty backhander. Whoop de doo, two plays. If someone says they were impressed with Zac Rinaldo, it's because he was able to control the puck through a little wood thing on the ice, and then he got off a nice shot afterwards with no defense on his back.

Did he show he had some hands today? Sure, but it was in a freakin' drill. With the defensemen in the locker room.

I'm not saying prospect camp is meaningless. Far from it, in fact. The scouts know these players better than we all do and can take what they see on the ice and the hard work the players are being put through and actually use that knowledge to their advantage. They wouldn't do it if it were meaningless. Really, this camp is just to acclimate these players in the organization, have them meet people they otherwise wouldn't meet and to give them a taste of what it takes to play at the NHL level. 

For us, though, who have never watched most of these guys play the game, it's almost impossible to come away with anything that resembles an honest opinion. All I'm saying is that as much as we want to make snap judgments on all these players based on their performance in camp, we can't. None of it really matters. 

If Schenn has a horrible camp, does that mean he's horrible? No, it means he looked bad in drills for five days. Same goes for any player, good or bad or mediocre or whatever.

Besides, not one player necessarily stands out anyway. Schenn, maybe, but that's because we're all watching him closely. In reality, he doesn't look much different from Rinaldo or Tom Sestito or Mike Testwuide or Luke Pither or anybody else. These guys can all shoot, pass, stickhandle and skate. Some do it better than others, of course, but those are meaningful differences you notice in games, not drills. 

It's impossible to come away with an honest judgment of a hockey player after watching them play a single game or two games or even five games. How are we supposed to come up with honest judgments about them after five days of drills and scrimmages? 

Some more notes after the jump.

Star-divide

- I have to say that walking into Skate Zone for the first time since the mayhem that this offseason has created is a weird experience. If you walk into the store, you'd think Claude Giroux was the only player left on the hockey team. His jersey lines the walls, mostly because every other jersey that hung on display is now irrelevant. 

- The crowd was impressive. I missed Day 1, but I can't imagine it was too much bigger than today's crowd. The bleachers were mostly full and people lined the glass in the corner near the doors. 

- Tom Sestito is a giant man. Again, I can't make any real judgments on his hands or his speed or whatever, having only watched a day of drills and two AHL games. But he's freakin' huge. 

- On the flip side, I couldn't help but notice Zac Rinaldo skating in circles and playing with the puck while the rest of the forwards were attentively listening to the coach explain what was going on before several of the drills. It looked like he just wanted to get on with it, and couldn't be bothered to listen to what the coach had to say. 

- I noticed Sean Couturier once, and that's because he was standing directly in front of me. Again, this doesn't matter one way or another. They were doing drills. 

- The instructors today included Ian Laperriere, Derien Hatcher, Kjell Samuelsson and some other dude that I have never seen before. Dave Isaac says it was former NHL defenseman Joel Bouchard, who played with every team in the Atlantic except for the Flyers. Hm.

- Dave also says they're going to scrimmage on Saturday, so at least we'll be able to see a bit more then. Seriously, drills suck. 

- I didn't go in the locker room after today's events, mostly because I forgot my camera and recorder (slacking). Apparently Rinaldo said more funny things. I'll make sure I'm in there on Saturday, Sunday and Monday for more. 

- The Trial on the Isle is tomorrow, and we're likely going to completely ignore it for reasons herein.

Comment 77 comments  |  Add comment  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Couldn’t agree with you more Travis. I feel like your general negativity has grown since I first met you…I’m so proud.

I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.

by DLJr on Jul 7, 2011 2:17 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s definitely cold as hell in there.

by dperilli on Jul 7, 2011 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I was impressed with Shane Harper. For whatever that is worth.

by OrangeNblacK on Jul 7, 2011 2:28 PM EDT reply actions  

I love this.

The Daily Forehand -- SB Nation's Tennis Destination.
Broad Street Hockey.

by Ben Rothenberg on Jul 7, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think it’s nearly as boring as you do, but we’ll agree to disagree. In some cases it may be the only time we ever see a particular player before the fall off the map; even though we can make better decisions when we see them in a scrimmage than we can just doing drills.

Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.

by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 7, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed myself today, mostly because I enjoy watching hockey of any sort. (And because it’s a billion degrees everywhere but a hockey rink today.) I just hate the “hey we’re gonna learn all about these guys at camp” feeling that everybody has about it.

Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Got goaltending? Searching since 1987.

by Travis Hughes on Jul 7, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I enjoy watching drills, so its always a thrill. And I think you CAN learn something about players there. Definitely not the whole idea, but you get a general knowledge about what a players strengths and weaknesses are.

Samesis

by JpH89 on Jul 7, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trial

I’ll be at the Trial on the Isle, and yes ill be bringing my poncho.

by pmontgo33 on Jul 7, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I’ll be going too. Really hope we luck out and get a nice day.

by OriginJM on Jul 7, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

So

Would it be out of line if I asked you what you thought of a certain player? Lol.

-bob

by Rrainone on Jul 7, 2011 2:49 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Oh god, there’s “superfan” in that picture. I can’t stand that guy.

"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"

by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 7, 2011 2:50 PM EDT reply actions  

The only one in the picture not watching the ice.

by Eric T. on Jul 7, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve been having a good day too. Lot’s to be excited about, then I have to look at that picture.

/whomp whomp

"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"

by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 7, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is on his phone constantly at games too, at least between periods. It amazes me he has anyone but that larger girl and guy to his right in the picture above to talk to.

I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.

by DLJr on Jul 7, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Between periods is fine, during the game is just stupid, unless it is like an emergency.

If I am paying that much money to sit there, I’m gonna watch, not talk on my damn phone.

by jello44 on Jul 7, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

::looking at screen:: ok mom…be…home…after gagne…(backspace) game…stupid t9..please…leave…player (backspace)…platter…in…microwave

"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"

by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 7, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t make it a habit to look up there during the game. But at stoppages or between periods I look up there to see if mikefive or my cousin are at the game since that sit around that section, and I always see him texting, or at least typing on his phone, exactly like in that picture.

I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.

by DLJr on Jul 7, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Center 213 214ish, very last row.

I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.

by DLJr on Jul 7, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m good with it as long as he stays up there.

Thanks a lot Select-A-Seat! Now I'm in 122!
I DO accept Ilya Bryzgalov as my savior!! Truly I do.

by Flyers_Section_121 on Jul 7, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s important. A real celebrity!

What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.

by doubleh on Jul 7, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh, what a tool…

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Jul 7, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glad I’m not the only one who dislikes him and his bunch of misfit fans.

The Flyers are 2011 Atlantic Division Champs, the Phillies just keep winning pennant after pennant. Great time to be a fan of those two teams on Broad Street.

by Iconious13 on Jul 7, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

anyone else watch Rinaldo’s interview on the flyers site? guy seems really hyper almost adhd. and he says he’s scared of the big horse flies. uh oh.

by Jazzy85 on Jul 7, 2011 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

He’s trouble and nothing more than a walking suspension unless he gets his shit together. Praying he doesn’t make the Flyers this season or ever unless he learns to calm down and play hockey.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

FA

Should we be expecting any more Free Agent signings? I thought 3rd line Center PK guy was on the shopping list.

From Parts Unknown.

by Dos Furioso on Jul 7, 2011 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

isn’t talbot pretty good on the PK? and a 3rd line center? i’m just going from what i’ve read which isn’t much. i have no stats to back it up.

by Jazzy85 on Jul 7, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

He lacks the size we are looking for though thats the only thing I think we need in the middle.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

twss

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Jul 7, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s what she said

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Jul 7, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

hahaha sorry hadn’t seen anyone shorten that before.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

twss

It's a hockey, you know. it's only... it's only game. Why you heff to be mad?

by Philly4Cup on Jul 7, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

hahahaa, thats funny

by jaccoo on Jul 7, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

stick around, you’ll see it quite often here :)

I lurk on Twitter as @LusipherPE

by btowl1818 on Jul 8, 2011 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Talbot can play center, but sucks on the draw, he played up and down the lineup in Pitt, but was mostly known for his PK. And being an agitator.

personally
I think the Devils and Kovalchuk should now sue the NHL for age discrimination. They’re essentially saying he CAN’T play until he’s 44.

Go Devils
by FrankG929 on Aug 9, 2010 5:15 PM PDT

by 02h32m01s on Jul 7, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

“sucks” is a bit strong – he won 48% of his draws last year. Dominant, not by a long shot. But ‘sucks’ is a bit extreme.

Talbot CAN play center, and refers to himself as a center, but really with the way Philly plays he’s a wing.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jul 7, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sucks is kind of fair if you look at his career averages if you want to deploy him in tough situations as your 3rd line center.

I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.

by DLJr on Jul 7, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Big set of ‘ifs’ there – especially since I agree he projects as a winger in our roster.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jul 7, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically one real if. The other if refers to how much work you want to put in to seeing how bad he is on faceoffs at NHL.com.

I HAVE to be mad because you keep saying, "why you heff to be mad?" in every other post.

by DLJr on Jul 11, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe Homer can sign him.

by mtitanic on Jul 7, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would normally disagree strongly, but then I remembered the only drills I watched last year were goalie drills. Those are a lot different.

90% of my scouting from last year came from scrimmages, so I understand Travis’ disappointment.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 7, 2011 3:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Evaluating talent is tough when you’re watching a development camp, but that doesn’t mean you’re wasting your time watching the players while you’re there. You can still get some pretty good insight. Check Silver Seven for examples.

Still, you’ve got to take everything you see and hear with a grain of salt. It’s probably not uncommon to be most impressed with some of the team’s middling prospects during development camp, for two reasons: First, they need to work their butts off in order to catch the eyes of the coaches and hopefully earn an invitation to the next camp; and second, the top prospects are typically just taking it easy because they already know they’re going to the main training camp, so they’re just getting back in shape and trying not to tire themselves out.

by Peter Raaymakers on Jul 7, 2011 3:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Alright Geoff you seem to know a lot about contracts with the organization, now why is Brandon Manning listed as an invitee? I thought he was on an entry-level contract but I could be wrong.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 3:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I thought he was too. CapGeek says he is under contract.

But most damning, Paul Holmgren said the Flyers signed him.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 7, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I’ll check that out! what you think about this? So is Tyler Brown, Jason Akeson, Tye McGinn all going to be in the AHL this year? Any chance Brendan Ranford plays with the Phantoms this season?

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brown will probably be on the ECHL/AHL bus, mostly in the ECHL.
Akeson will almost certainly be on the Phantoms due to his age.
McGinn will also almost certainly be on the Phantoms due to his age.
Ranford will probably go back to Juniors as he’s only 19.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 7, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I see what your saying about Ranford but three full seasons there already, he doesn’t exactly have much left to prove in the WHL so I could see him going both ways.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he can’t be in the AHL because of the transfer agreement. Unless he somehow qualifies as a 20 year old for WHL purposes (5/3/92 birthday), he has to either be in the NHL or CHL.

Further, I think he has a lot to prove in Juniors. He got hot for 26 games, then reverted back to his former ppg self. He has to prove those 26 games weren’t a fluke, because they certainly look like one.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 7, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

ohhh I see, yeah he isn’t ready for the NHL thats for sure.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot the #1 reason why anyone follows Prospect Camp …

THERE’S NOTHING ELSE GOING ON. You act like your average Flyers fan will follow Drummondville in the Q this year now that they drafted Couturier. Uh … NO. They’ll be watching the big club. Heck, now that the Phantoms are in Adirondack (or Allentown, or Trenton even) that’s out-of-sight-and-out-of-mind for most Flyers fans. But if the AHL played as a summer league (ignoring the physics of keeping ice cold in summer) there’d be a lot more interest. Right now, since FA basically is spent, Prospect Camp is all we have. So we obsess, and imagine that because Schenn tripped he won’t be a smooth-skating forward. Or that because Lauridsen stopped Schenn on ONE drill, he’s the next Bundy. (Making fun of myself there, actually.) But hey – when all you have is this, you take what you get.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jul 7, 2011 3:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree. I enjoyed camp today. It was nice just being in the rink and watching hockey.

But that doesn’t mean I have to take anything meaningful away from the experience.

Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Got goaltending? Searching since 1987.

by Travis Hughes on Jul 7, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Puck Daddy already linked this here article of yours, Travis:
 "Travis Hughes on the cruel reality of Philadelphia Flyers prospects camp: “This is boring. Yep, today was honestly my first prospect camp experience, and I have to say that after four hours of standing against a wall watching a bunch of kids run through drills, I haven’t exactly come away with any more knowledge or anything poignant to say.” [Broad Street Hockey]"

by mtitanic on Jul 7, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was it Wysh or Lambert?

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Jul 7, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I wouldn’t be surprised either way.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Jul 7, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

That super fan is a real douche. Never met him, but if there was a parade i’d probably throw a beer bottle at his face and proclaim that it was a rogue Pens fan.

Philadelphia – the only place that during a theoretical championship parade you’d wish ill will upon the fan of the same team you cheer for

I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks

by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 7, 2011 4:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Philadelphia – the only place that during a theoretical championship parade you’d wish ill will upon the fan of the same team you cheer for

…and be cheered for it because we all knew he had it coming

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!

by hintzy64 on Jul 7, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

/acting roguish …

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jul 7, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

In other news, I am pumped for when the flea markets start coming out with the Jagr orange and white 68. That shit is getting celebrated in every Pens fan’s face I know

I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks

by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 7, 2011 4:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m at least buying a tshirt.

Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Got goaltending? Searching since 1987.

by Travis Hughes on Jul 7, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m gonna do the RVD thing at the bar, then give them a wink and buy them a “Jagr Bomb”

I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks

by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 7, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

About time

NHLFlyersPhiladelphia Flyers

Per GM Paul Holmgren, #Flyers have signed RW Wayne Simmonds to a multi-year contract extension.

by techwiz21 on Jul 7, 2011 4:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I haven’t seen any details come up yet. Just posted on twitter about 10 mins ago

by techwiz21 on Jul 7, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I see the same thing, no details yet, hopefully it’s reasonable, I hope it’s also not over 2 million but we all know how Holmgren rolls his money.

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not bad

tpanotchCSN Tim Panaccio
Simmonds: 2 yrs, – $1,750,000 AAV. (vs cap)

by techwiz21 on Jul 7, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow, thats great, less than I thought actually!

by ryanitus on Jul 7, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually that is a pretty fun drinking game

“every time Jagr gets a point, Jager bomb”

I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks

by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 7, 2011 4:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I hate how excited I am for this!

"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"

by PraiseMartyMoose on Jul 7, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still jealous

The Sharks don’t let us watch. Maybe it would all be more interesting if the public and the media were not allowed in?

by petshark on Jul 7, 2011 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I think this is my favorite Hughes piece. It’s so disgusted and honest. And about as bored as I get with minor league baseball….oh so they just got to Single Lowercase “A” Boxcar Charley Grape Drink League. Cool that means 6 years before Single A and then if another 8 years of astronaut training before reaching AAA.

by j reed on Jul 8, 2011 12:50 AM EDT reply actions  

I love minor league baseball :-(

I'm a left-hander in a right-hander's body.

by LeepinLizardz on Jul 8, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I love going to minor league baseball games. Everything is cheaper, closer, and more relaxed.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Give it up for hipster Travis! /s

Thanks for a back-to-reality look at prospect camp :)

I lurk on Twitter as @LusipherPE

by btowl1818 on Jul 8, 2011 7:10 AM EDT reply actions  

I went to boarding school with Petr Placek

He’s a good guy. Big dude, uses his size well. Or at least he did for us. Do tell if he is noteworthy

The first Drauschak.

by birds'n'raiders on Jul 8, 2011 11:42 PM EDT reply actions  


User Tools

All the Philadelphia Flyers news and commentary that's fit to print.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Flyers-orange-crush_small
NHL Draft 2012: Options on defense in the first round

Recent FanPosts

Patal_small
Andrew Johnston Scouting Report: A first-hand look at the Flyers newest prospect
Small
What being a Hockey fan means to me.
Small
Could Parise and Weber be in Flyers' future?
Mick_jagr_2_small
SB Nation app
Small
Hockey Stick Help
Copy_of_137494800_slide_small
The 2011-12 Philadelphia Flyers season in GIFs
37938_10150235117290484_539355483_13709206_6888144_n_small
Ilya Bryzgalov has chance to take shot at Flyers fans, does
Small
Can the Flyers win the Cup with Bryz?
Carcillo_small
Flyers in the Off-Season

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managing Editor

Screen_shot_2012-01-09_at_12 Travis Hughes

Associate Editors

67865_878600804923_14200876_46395212_2220_n_small Geoff Detweiler

Headshot2_film_grain_small Ben Rothenberg

Soccer_face_small Eric T.

Contributors

163830_478172269164_824914164_5517468_4313370_n_small ToddtheFox

Clarke-tee_small KreiderDesigns

D150_small Teemu H