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How does Jody Shelley's suspension impact the roster?


It's been a hot topic of debate around here lately: will Jody Shelley's salary count against the salary cap during his suspension? It's an important question -- for a team as close to the salary cap as the Flyers are, $1.1M of wiggle room has a lot of value.

For example, the cap relief would make it easy for the team to fit Sean Couturier's salary in for a five-game stint at the start of the year, but without it, they can't fit him in without making other moves.

The CBA section 50.10.(c) seems to say clearly that the team will get cap relief for Shelley's salary:

For Players that are suspended, either by a Club or by the League, the Player Salary and Bonuses that are not paid to such Players shall not count against a Club's Upper Limit

Capgeek had the same interpretation, explaining it as such in their FAQ and listing Shelley and Daniel Briere as counting against the cap for less than the full year as a result of their suspensions last year. CBA experts across the internet agreed, including our own.

And yet throughout it all, the Flyers were telling Sam Carchidi that the team would not get cap relief.

For those who asked, Shelley's $1.1 M cap hit DOES count against cap during suspension; #Flyers still pay him, but $$ goes to #NHL.
Don't shoot messenger. Just reporting what #Flyers brass says. They said when Briere was suspended, for instance, it COUNTED against cap.

The CBA seemed clear, but the Flyers had a different interpretation. So we went searching for evidence that could settle things.

Star-divide

One idea was to look for other teams that had players suspended when they were right near the cap. If we could find one that would be over the cap if you included the suspended player's salary, that would be compelling evidence that the Flyers were wrong about the CBA.

However, we couldn't find any such examples. Last year, the Devils were so stricken by cap woes and injuries that they had to play with only 15 skaters when Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond got suspended for a game. It wasn't because they didn't have someone who fit in under an exemption for Leblond's cap space, because when the suspension was over they waived Leblond and called up Adam Mair.

Still, this wasn't quite conclusive. CBA section 18.3.(b).(i) says that first-time offenders such as Leblond don't lose their full salary during a suspension, so it was possible that Mair fit in when Leblond's full salary got sent to the AHL but not during a partial exemption via suspension.

We decided to turn to the league for an authoritative answer. It would be hard to imagine a more authoritative voice than Bill Daly, Deputy Commissioner and Chief Legal Officer of the NHL. Here's what he had to say in response to our question:

Yes, the salary of players suspended for on-ice incidents do continue to count against the cap.

That seems pretty straightforward. Yet it also seems to be in clear conflict with the CBA passage quoted above, so I asked him to explain why that section does not apply. His answer:

This section was intended to apply to players who receive no salary as a result of a team or League suspension. Supplementary discipline suspensions for on-ice conduct receive specific (and different) salary treatment as per the CBA, where forfeited salary is paid (albeit to the Emergency Assistance Fund) and by agreement of the NHL and NHLPA the player's full salary continues to count against the team's cap.

So now we're at the heart of it. Section 18.7 of the CBA says that any fines collected or salary forfeited pursuant to any discipline imposed by the League goes into the Emergency Assistance Fund. Section 50.10.(c) says that any salary not paid to players as a result of suspension won't count against the team's salary cap. Although there are separate procedures for imposing discipline for on-ice and off-ice actions, there is no written distinction of the salary cap implications.

However, the NHL and NHLPA decided that this wasn't what either side had intended, and so they agreed separately to count the salary in full against the cap.

Carchidi was right; his Flyers source had more knowledge of the situation than we were privy to. We -- and many others -- were combative about this on Twitter and owe him an apology.

But more importantly, this means that Shelley's suspension really does hurt the team. Because his salary will stay on the books, the team will have limited options for replacing him. Because he can't play, the team won't have a 13th forward should someone get hurt in the first few games.

The team is operating so close to the cap this year that an injury here and a suspension there could leave them following the Devils' example and dressing 16 skaters. With Brendan Shanahan seemingly cracking down on dirty hits, the Flyers -- and especially their repeat offenders -- need to be particularly careful to stay clean this year.

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Question for DG: I have a vague memory in my head that players can’t go on LTIR until the season starts. Did I just make that up?

If that’s true, then the opening-night roster is really a shambles, because Lappy and Shelley will both eat up cap space. The options then are to use Bartulis on the fourth line or to send Schenn down and call up cheaper AHLers for the third and fourth lines. Eww.

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

There is a passage in the CBA that describes LTIR prior to the first day of the season, but I could barely understand it. Experts are needed. Page 228 of the CBA.

by hebrew hammer on Sep 27, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I looked at that and got the impression that I might not have made this up, but I went cross-eyed before I could figure it out for sure.

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that their general examples do not describe the sequence of events with enough specificity. A team can be over the cap until opening day, at which point it must waive or trade enough players to be cap compliant. A player can’t be assigned to LTIR until opening day, but does that mean that another player can also be called up on opening day to take advantage of the exemption? If the team has that all planned out, then normal issues like travel time from the location of the AHL team wouldn’t come up.

by hebrew hammer on Sep 27, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember that the daily calculations happen at a specified time. Everything is calculated based on who is and isn’t on the roster at exactly 5pm NY time. So if the Flyers move Lappy to LTIR at lunchtime, he’s already on LTIR when the first day’s calculation is done. That’s the simple explanation.

Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.

by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 27, 2011 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

So it appears Homer and Hanrahan finally got something right? Amazing!

Sorry guys.

Justin F.
XOXO

Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Sep 27, 2011 4:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Good work, Eric.

Rec’d.

Also (and sorry, but), I’m glad to see that salary does count against the cap. It’s just another reason for teams to make their players behave.

Not followin' @JPNikota on Twitter? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'.

by JP Nikota on Sep 27, 2011 5:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed. The idea that Jody Shelley could really help the team out by doing idiotic things and trying to get suspended doesn’t sit real well.

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Jody, just remember, as far as the team is concerned, there is no instigator rule in the last five minutes of the game.”

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. It’s one of those things we talked about before, actually.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 27, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Win.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 27, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love it. Gentleman’s agreement my ass.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Sep 27, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Section 18.7 of the CBA says that any fines collected or salary forfeited pursuant to any discipline imposed by the League goes into the Emergency Assistance Fund.

If the preseason is any indication, this fund could triple this season.

"I repeat we have normality." She turned her microphone off — then turned it back on, with a slight smile and continued: "Anything you still can’t cope with is therefore your own problem."

by Mike B on D on Sep 27, 2011 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Shanahan’s going to go into the record books as the greatest philanthropist the NHL has ever known.

Bob.

by The Dark on Sep 27, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s gotta get rid of the instigator—-or at least modify. Case in point Sestito getting jumped and the Ranger getting an instigator.

by OrangeNblacK on Sep 27, 2011 7:13 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

then he really will be the best thing since sliced bread

by OrangeNblacK on Sep 27, 2011 7:14 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

This is what happens when they make gentleman’s agreements nobody knows about, I guess. Those of us paying attention know about things like the Avery rule and the Kovalchuk rule; but if they make an agreement and don’t tell the public, there isn’t any way for us to figure it out. That one’s pretty crazy though, because the language in the document is surprisingly clear; only to find out later that they didn’t intend it to be that clear.

I’m adding the note to the margins of my PDF now.

Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.

by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 27, 2011 7:28 PM EDT reply actions  

P.S. – Eric, did you forward the response to the people at CapGeek?

Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.

by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 27, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tweeted the article at them.

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Daly's interpretation is completely bizarro
However, the NHL and NHLPA decided that this wasn’t what either side had intended, and so they agreed separately to count the salary in full against the cap.

So we won’t follow the contract? I completely agree with NYFlyersfan above (and rec’d his post). This is a little ridiculous.

NOTE TO DG DOUBTERS: What Bill Daly actually said is “DG is technically correct about what the CBA says, but we decided to make it not say that.”

NOTE TO NON-LAWYERS: A contract is made to be broken, as long as all sides agree.

Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.

by Bud in TN on Sep 27, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly. They’re saying that forfeited salary is still paid to the player – thus 50.10© is wrong – even though it’s collected by the League and goes to the NHLPA.

I’m pretty sure if the IRS said “That salary you forfeited, and were never paid, still counts as income paid to you, so we’re going to tax you on it” people would laugh.

That’s what the NHL is saying.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 27, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t tell my boss…they’ll try to get in on this hilarity and raid my bank account. :-((

Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.

by Bud in TN on Sep 27, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

so we’re going to tax you on it

This is a good point — they didn’t address this directly, but if they waived the part about it not counting against the cap, then I would presume they also waived the part about it not counting towards the players’ share. Which means it’s increasing the escrow payment.

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 27, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, what?
Which means it’s increasing the escrow payment.

Does this mean “the escrow payment the players have to make is increasing” or “this is going toward the escrow payment the players would have to make”.

I understand the 2nd interpretation, not the first.

Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.

by Bud in TN on Sep 27, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

With the caveat that I don’t necessarily know exactly what the escrow payment is…

What I meant was that the amount of money paid to players should be reduced by the amount that they didn’t pay the player during the suspension, which would reduce the escrow payment that the players have to make.

And that if the NHL/NHLPA decided to pretend that money is paid to players, then the players end up giving up more in escrow later as a result.

by Eric T. on Sep 27, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is my first scenario, which makes no sense.

Thus, Daly would be pulling a fast one on the NHLPA. Could the NHLPA leadership be that stupid
/tries to forget the last 3 or 4 execs prior to Fehr

Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.

by Bud in TN on Sep 27, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT Note to bloglords

Some folks are having trouble with the site….HH has been trying to post all day and can’t (she is currently posting on TGP). A number of us are having trouble reccing (both here and TGP). Might want to give IT a heads-up.

Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.

by Bud in TN on Sep 27, 2011 8:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks Bud. Yeah, doubleh sent me an email too about it. Forwarded it to support and hopefully it’ll be quickly fixed.

Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?

by Travis Hughes on Sep 27, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can we fans order a printed copy of the CBA? I want to put Jody Shelley’s salary/suspension to use and make them print a copy, ship it to me in Ohio and get versed on that mother like DG.

by flyerboom_6 on Sep 28, 2011 9:11 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Well, the CBA is available for download as a PDF, and while Sestito forfeits his salary, it goes to the NHL players (the Emergency Assistance Fund) and not the NHL in general.

But, I like the idea. :)

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 28, 2011 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve honestly considered sending the PDF off to Staples or something to get printed and hole-punched so I could have it in a binder; but I ended up deciding I didnt want to kill that many trees or spend that much money. 472 pages is a lot of paper.

Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.

by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 28, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two per page, double-sided…bam, 118 pages. Still a lot.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Sep 29, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  


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