Thursday Morning Fly By: I'm Not Creative
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
in Morning Fly By
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- Chris Pronger doesn't know if he will be playing in the preseason or not: [Philly Sports Daily]
- There is an "Oskars Bartulis for Flyers Captain" Facebook page: [Facebook]
- Niko Hovinen stopped 20 of 21 shots in a 4-1 win: [euroflyers]
- Remembering Kyle Calder and his terribleness: [Flyers Faithful]
- Garrett Klotz (not again!) scored for the Phantoms in their preseason opener. On the Power Play: [PostStar.com]
- Another attempt at correcting common misconceptions, this time showing just how many points should be expected out of your forwards: [Pension Plan Puppets]
- There was a nasty head-shot last night, as Brendan Smith went shoulder to the head of Ben Smith: [SBNation.com] [Puck Daddy]
- I'm not sure how I feel about numbers on the front of players' helmets: [Puck Daddy]
- With the rash of suspensions lately, Brendan Shanahan is telling the NHL to change how they hit other players: [Arctic Ice Hockey]
- Marc-Andre Fleury has a new mask, and it includes puck scuffs: [Puck Daddy]
- Amazing shirtzeys of your favorite hockey movie characters: [Flyers Goal Scored By...]
- Brendan Shanahan isn't the only one to use video explanations, as Colin Campbell used one after Matt Cooke elbowed Marc Savard: [Down Goes Brown]
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I am surprised you did not make a baseball reference in your title, Geoff. What happened last night……..wow. That was about as improbable as sporting outcomes come.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I thought we already agreed upon this one haha
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
We did, and I’m quite pleased. Nice headline.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Now all he has to do is add to his signature.
Chris Pronger: Now the Flyers really do have a Captain Elbows. #Winning
Of the sound mind that Giroux moved out because Briere burnt too many grilled cheeses.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Notwithstanding last night’s chatter about a Hartnell-Kostitsyn trade, I’ll be curious to see how credible Panotch’s club source is, who claims that the likelihood of some type of trade in the near future for the purpose of freeing up cap space is “pretty good”.
Sarauj, Latvija!
I love how Panotch treats LTIR like straight up cap space over and over:
On Oct. 6, when Laperriere goes on LTI, both Rinaldo and Bartulis return to the Flyers. That also then creates more than $267,000 in cap space.
It would be nice if he said that “would leave the Flyers with $267,000 in exemption space” and then something about how it’s space that cannot be banked and too small to add another player.
Isn’t Bartulis eligible for waivers now too?
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions
He was last year, too. If his scenario were to make sense, it would be Rinaldo and Read or Schenn who are briefly left off. Even then, it’s not exactly a big deal. But if his sources are to be believed, whatever trade he’s trying to orchestrate may change the circumstances significantly.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
As long as they don’t try to save $200k by trading Bob and keeping Leighton.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
It technically is this year, because there’s no bonus cushion.
Original member of the Mike Weber bandwagon!
To make up for lost time, the Sabres signed six seasons worth of front-loaded cap skirting contracts in one week.
But you still can’t bank space when you’re using LTIR and give yourself extra money at the end of the season when you might want a little wiggle room. LTIR is more like a credit line for when you exceed the upper limit, where banked space is more like a savings account and you can save it to spend later if you need it.
Is that analogy too vague?
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Not too vague for us.
For the media? Possibly.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
That’s the problem, I kinda like the idea of moving Hartnell, if it keeps us under the cap all year and we can use that banked cap space at the deadline for additional moves.
Or you know, we could have just never signed Shelley and picked up Breezy for the $3M-$4M cap hit he might actually be worth.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Are people forgetting Hartnell has a NMC, and also just had a cardiac scare?
I doubt theres any value there at all between getting him to waive the NMC for a certain team, and the health scare lowering his percieved value.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Yea, I never said it would be easy, but I think it’s a NTC, not NMC, so he could get Gagne’d. I really like Hartnell too, just wish his salary was lower, or that Homer could do better math.
Could always just leave Schenn off the NHL roster for the first five games, too.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Hartnell has an NTC, not an NMC. So if they’ve feeling particularly nasty, they can threaten to waive him if he doesn’t agree to the trade. This is all speculatively speaking, of course. It has been suggested that they made the same threat to Gagne, but I’m not sure I heard that 100% confirmed.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Either way… look at what “value” we got back for Gagne.
I am assuming we would get a similir bag o’ pucks return for Hartnell.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Yea it would have to be good picks (1st or 2nd round) and no salary dumps a la Matt Walker.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, Noebels better turn into something good, just to help ease the pain from that trade.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
If there is any truth to that rumor, they were saying he would waive his NTC to go back to the Preds because he liked it there.
Also, they were saying it was a 4 player deal. Hartnell & Nodl for Sergei Kostitsyn and a D prospect. Two injured (although Hartnell has been cleared to play & Nodl might play this weekend) but decent players for one who produces about as much as Hartnell, has a shitty attitude, and isn’t very good in his own end + a D prospect. It clears about $2.5M in cap space. Personally, if they were going to do that I’d say leave out the D prospect unless itwas somebody they really wanted. It would be nice to shed a contract as well.
Then again, it was all a twitter rumor, so I’m not putting much faith in it anyway.
He’s just the new Hossa. In back-to-back years he’s been with the organization that lost in the finals. This is his year!
I’m always excited to hear about trading Hartnell. Maybe we could get something valuable for him, like one of those blow-up punching dummys that fall over and spring back up. Or maybe the lead actress from the remake of “Annie”. Or even possibly Dan Quayle.
-still thinking of other good Hartnell-esque analogy-people
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 29, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I GET TO WATCH HOCKEY TONIGHT!!!!! That is the only thing to take some of the sting out of losing to York.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
I’m going to the game tonight! Got $155 tickets on Stubhub for $15 and that’s after shipping! Pumped!
Opposing Ilya Bryzgalov as Philadelphia Flyers' goalie since June 23, 2011.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Sep 29, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Shirtzeys
I was hoping to see a -pack for the Hanson Brothers. Fake glasses, a wig and some blood would make a great halloween costume!
This is completely random, and rather pointless:
For some strange reason, I’ve always liked how the number 9 looks on Flyers jerseys. I think it goes back to Mark Greig. Either way, I find it weird and was wondering if I’m alone in having this happen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 9:08 AM EDT reply actions
So true but for me it goes back to Pelle Eklund
"The characters in this picture are all fictitious. Anyone resembling them is better off dead"
Karate' Jerry..... Karate'
Semper Fi...
Agreed it has to be Pelle but Geoff if you are too young to remember Pelle Eklund he was your type of player. A true gentlemen on the ice and an excellent defensive shutdown player and excellent play maker. A often unsung hero. A smaller Handzus / more offensively skilled Nodl.
I definitely don’t remember him well, but I remember when I first started watching the Flyers, it was his last year in the NHL. But he was traded before my first game.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the number 9 looks good in general on jerseys and I can’t explain why.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Yeah, I just don’t feel the same about Dom Brown or Mikko Koivu. So I’m perplexed.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Fernando Torres!
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I like how Pronger’s 20 looks. It seems big and intimidating.
Confirmation bias?
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Sep 29, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps number 9 is in your numerology chart.
You are socially conscious, concerned about the betterment of the world, idealistic, visionary, tolerant, imaginative and creative, compassionate, romantic, selfless, generous, noble and aristocratic.
Career choices: Designer, photographer, politician, lawyer, teacher, healer, statesperson, writer, philosopher, artist.
Weaknesses: You can be aloof, withdrawn, distracted, possessive, moody, timid and uncertain.
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Career choices: Designer, photographer, politician, lawyer, teacher, healer, statesperson, writer, philosopher, artist.
I dunno, maybe there is something to it.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Sep 29, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
We often resist or deny our destiny, our true essence. /s
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I think 8 is a great number on any jersey. Especially when it’s double 8 in orange and black.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Sep 29, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I never enjoyed the look of 8’s on jerseys.
19 will hold a special place with me, but Hartnell kinda ruined that for me.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Scott Mellanby is the first Flyer I remeber wearing 19, and I know its off topic but Geoff bringing up numbers makes me wish that the 80’s and early 90’s Flyers alumni play a big role in the winter classic alumni game. Not that I do not like the two cup teams but that was not my era and now its getting a little old.
"The characters in this picture are all fictitious. Anyone resembling them is better off dead"
Karate' Jerry..... Karate'
Semper Fi...
Legion of Doom is a line or it’s a total failure!
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Sep 29, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m personally going to be seriously disappointed if Rico isn’t in it.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I hear he parted on bad terms, then again it was put out there by Panotch so not sure about accuarcy of that statment. But totally agree he needs to be there with Mark Howe, Kerr, Poulin, Toc,Craven,Podein and the Legion of Doom..
"The characters in this picture are all fictitious. Anyone resembling them is better off dead"
Karate' Jerry..... Karate'
Semper Fi...
He stayed on a Player Development Coach for a year or two years after he retired, and he went back to the Montreal area to coach youth hockey. I didn’t think the parting terms were so bad that he wouldn’t be willing to play in an alumni game, but there might be stuff I didn’t hear about.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine…
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
My name is Jean Valjean!
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
24601!
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
655321!
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 29, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
One Hundred and Five, North Tower
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
8675309
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
Follow me @HTJohnMoritz (BSH is doing it, why aren't you)
I actually have a Stahl shirtzey from Mighty Ducks 2.
Also, I like Flower’s new helmet, and I am probably the only one.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Nope, I like it.
No, see, Geoff's a dick, so you hear him saying X. But he means Y, he just is incapable of moving off the argument he's currently in with you to admit the common ground you share. We hate him for it.
I worry how it will look when he’s wearing non-WC jerseys, but I do like it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m assuming he has 2 helmets.
No, see, Geoff's a dick, so you hear him saying X. But he means Y, he just is incapable of moving off the argument he's currently in with you to admit the common ground you share. We hate him for it.
I have to assume.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Also I am rusty have been posting as much and my typing and grammar is returning to my rookie BSH season form of unintelligible.
I prefer to think of it as regression to the mean.
Bob.
by The Dark on Sep 29, 2011 12:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’ve toyed with that shirtzey for awhile. Never pulled the trigger though. Also, that site loses some points because Kenny Wu never wore that jersey. Even on a movie shirtzey it’s still a fail.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Sep 29, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
MAF with new-mask-powers to boot? I predict he breaks Boucher’s shutout record. In the first five games of the season.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 29, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That Smith hit was absolutely textbook what they’re trying to get rid of. However, what does a defenseman do in that situation? You’re coming from an angle, and you want to play the body rather than go after the puck and look silly. The guy dekes, and rather than shoulder to shoulder, you drill him in the head…..
I'm kind of a dick.
It’s far easier to clamor about how terrible hits to the head are, and how everyone who does it is a giant goon, then to actually resolve the problem and admit that it’s usually the dangler’s fault he’s getting concussed.
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 29, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s a tough one, I’m really interested to see how Shanny handles it. I definitely have a lot of sympathy for the D there. I don’t think this is like the blindside hits that inspired this wave of rule changes. The puck carrier knew the D was there, and tried to evade the hit, forgetting to get the most important body part out of the way. He’s hunched over, side-steps, and leaves his melon in the danger zone. It sucks, but I don’t think it’s very fair to hit the D with a suspension, at least not anything that carries into the regular season (though, given he’s fighting for a roster spot, that might be a tough pill to swallow for him).
Obviously, this is all speculation.
You should go for the old fashion hip check and take the forward off his skates at hip and the upper thigh. Why the hit has disappeared from the game is beyond me is a more safer play then Scott Stevens shoulders to the chest which often turns into as we say hits to the head.
A hip check there is asking to be embarrassed. If he went for a hip check, and the puck carrier makes the same move, then the D misses and the puck carrier is in alone. There’s a time and a place for a hip check, and I agree with the Arctic Hockey article on that point, but this wasn’t the time or the place. He didn’t have proper positioning to execute it.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I have to disagree entirely you can’t dodge a hip check with a stick handling move or a head fake what is what Smith did when he drug the puck back. He moved is outside right shoulder and chest which was being targeted for the hit to stickhandle. His hip/inside thigh doesn’t move and he would have got completely knocked on his ass if Smith went low targeting the hip. That is why a hip check is so effective you can’t on skates with forward momentum shift you hips it is really hard to due.
Even while running NFL running backs have a hard time avoiding tackles that wrap up their hips and that is why tackers are taught to target the hips. Tackles up high are the ones that often miss.
You can’t dodge a hip check? The head fake is irrelevant, but the hip slide he pulled is not. That hip slide would have gotten him out of the way of a hip check, no doubt. Unless the D gets a piece of the puck with his feet (tough to do when you aren’t facing it), then the puck carrier is in alone. There’s a reason you see most hip checks executed near the boards, and not in open ice. The puck carrier had too much room to evade, and the angle was all wrong.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Most hip checks are executed when the puck carrier is skating toward the D, and tries to pass them on the side. Both players were racing back to the same point, forming a “V” angle. That’s just not a realistic angle to try to hip check. Too many things can go wrong. Aim for the front side (assuming the carrier continues skating forward) and that cut-back curl beats you. Aim for the back side and the carrier beats you to the inside. Either way it’s a high risk move.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
While the defender was in a bad position regardless of if he when high or low he didn’t have a great angle up high either and hence missed the shoulder check and hit him up high, will get suspended cost salary and a PP against.
If he went low and missed which IMO would have required a more deft stickhandling / skating than what actually occurred worse case scenario he gets beat and gives up a breakaway. The defender still has a chance at the getting a piece of the puck or just pulling down the skater after the miss and take the PP against. Both worst case options are better than what actually happened.
I’m not sure the D would agree that giving up a breakaway is preferable. Obviously he doesn’t want to kill a guy, but getting a piece of the guy is better than not getting a piece of the guy.
I’d say he had a decent angle to go up high. The fact that the puck carrier couldn’t get out of the way speaks to that. It’s an unfortunate result, but there wasn’t another way to actually play defense there.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Are you serious. Your NOT ALLOWED to go up high anymore that is the new rule. That is not the acceptable play go low take your chances if you get beat on a good to great deke pull the guy down take the PP against and next time don’t get out of position in the 1st place. He could have also went for the Kimmo sliding sweep poke check and laid out across the ice taking away the entire cut back to inside. NHL players and yourself have to learn this is not an acceptable way to play D and there are plenty of options that have just as much risk in terms of getting beat on the play that won’t result in career ending injuries suspensions.
You are allowed to go high. You just aren’t allowed to hit the head. He tried to hit the shoulders, and missed. That’s not an inherently illegal check; that’s just a check that went wrong.
It’s easy for you to say “take your chances” when you aren’t battling for a roster spot.
Hindsight is 20/20. He could have done other things. So could the puck carrier.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Hindsight is 20/20. He could have done other things. So could the puck carrier.
However right the new rules put the fault on the checker not the puck carrier. The checker as to make “full body contact” the only way to get full body contact coming from that angle is to attack the forwards hip.
However right the new rules put the fault on the checker not the puck carrier.
Not entirely correct. The rule states:
However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was unavoidable, can be considered.
Something something, something something, something; I don't like you.
And Shanny has emphasized the lack of “putting himself in a vulnerable position” on several hits, so you know he’s looking for it.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
The reason you don’t see that many open ice hip checks is because it is very hard to do. A hip check for the most part is a long the boards. It is most effective when a player comes down the boards or makes a move to the outside (the board side). That is when it is more likely to work. Now granted you can hip check in open ice but it is not an easy thing for a defender to do. An open ice hip check can easily be avoided by the offensive player if he can see it comming. Even if he does not see it comming the timing of the player who is executing the check must be perfect. If the offensive player can see it comming in the open ice he can easily make a move and the defender is screwed. There is a certian skill involved in a hip check but it should primarily be used against the boards.
As a defenseman who has been placed in this situation, you don’t go low ever. Take the body, and if the guy goes inside, so be it. He won’t be doing that again at least in that game.
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
Follow me @HTJohnMoritz (BSH is doing it, why aren't you)
Yeah, I always played D and would NEVER go low. If nothing else, I was always one of the bigger guys, and didnt want to destroy anyone’s knees. Then again, back then, nobody got concussions … or wore helmets. I always aimed for dead center of the trunk. Every coach says to watch the logo on their chest. If they tried to dip or scoot and put their head in that area, that was their problem.
You can’t “NEVER” go low, you just have to be judicious. There’s a reason it’s usually when the skater is along the boards and coming right at you, easier to control the angle. You shouldn’t worry about knees if you do it right, unless you are going REAL low, or are very short.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
OK, maybe not never, but I’m 40 and haven’t had to do it yet. I was always worried about losing an edge or even just losing my balance and sliding into somebody’s knees like a 250lb bowling ball, or worse, their skates coming at my face.
Because I’m a big oaf, I’ve never been the fastest guy out there. As a result, I learned very quickly that good positioning was my only chance. It was very rare that somebody was able to blow by me. I never jumped up in the play, just hung back and worried about my own end. When you do that, you can play the angles and cut down shooting lanes. That also allows you to get in front of guys so you can hit them dead on rather than worrying about head shots from the side.
My hits were always squeaky clean. I played dirty in less obvious ways, like running my stick up the back of my arm when I went near the boards, and lowering it just before getting hit so they would spear themselves. That was always fun, and made people not try to hit me again.
Are you still in a checking league at 40? Insurance for that has to be a nightmare.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I haven’t played in about 2 or 3 years. Got tired of looking for games without kids or douche bags who didn’t realize there were no scouts in the stands. Toward the end, I was playing at an “old timers” open hockey night once a week. That was a blast. Nobody under 35 allowed. It was great for a year or so, and then the kids started sneaking in. We let them at 1st, but they kept winding up for slap shots on a goalie who was 63 years old. When I told them why they shouldn’t do it, one kid said, “F**k him, he shouldn’t put on the pads if he can’t take it.” I debated cross checking him in the head to show him that the equipment isn’t fool proof, but I haven’t been to jail since the 90’s and didn’t want to end my streak.
At that point, I decided to just stop playing.
I agree. I play defense but I can play wing. I like taking the body, but if I can properly aply a hip check along the boards it can give the offensive player something to think about.
I’m 250lbs. (I was 280lbs when I was younger & lifting) Chances are, no matter how I hit somebody it gave them something to think about. Most of the guys I played with were so much smaller than me that I wouldn’t actually hit them, just stiffen up and let them run into me, or just steer them into the wall. When there’s a difference of 70lbs or more, it’s like running into a wall.
I usually didn’t really try to lay out big hits on anyone.(unless they were an asshole who was trying to hurt people) I just liked to make sure we didn’t get scored on.
Question
I caught the some of the “Meet the Flyers” the other night after the game and I heard Lisa Hillary call Mike Richards ‘Public Enemy #1’. When did that happen? Did I miss something?
JIBTA has taken control of the Philly media.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Sep 29, 2011 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Were there lots of ellipses?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
You mean something like
“My boyfriend….Mike……was watching that ESPN show about Renee….Richards….when I asked what music was playing and he said this…..is Public Enemy……and then we ordered Thai take out which is easy because he always gets……….#1…….and we ate dinner while watching a rerun of It’s Always Sunny…….in Philadelphia…..”
Kind of the opposite of Mad Libs.
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You forgot the random caps, references to God, and blatant disregard for reality.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 30, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s easy to hate Avery.
It takes a special kind of rage to hate someone as dispassionate and uncaring as Mike Richards.
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 29, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I was there and that was my exact reaction too. My friend said the same thing. What the hell was she thinking?
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by Mitchell Green on Sep 29, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
From http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2011/9/28/2440239/nhl-general-managers-hot-seat
Paul Holmgren
Eventually, Philadelphia Flyers owner Ed Snider is going to tire of the non-stop excuses and find himself a new General Manager. This might be the year. Holmgren did an amazing job in turning the Flyers around after the 2006-07 season when Philadelphia finished with 56 points. However, part of that turnaround included overpaying Daniel Briere and Kimmo Timonen.
The ascent of Mike Richards, Scott Hartnell and Jeff Carter gave the Flyers exceptional forward depth, but they were light on defense. After losing to the Penguins in the playoffs in 2008-09, Holmgren set about fixing his defense to shut down Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. He did so by signing Chris Pronger to a 35+ contract (possibly unknowingly) and overpaying Scott Hartnell. Those contracts eventually cost the Flyers Simon Gagne when they couldn’t fit him under the salary cap.
Last season’s culprit was beer and goaltending. In response, Holmgren traded Richards and Carter away for Jakub Voracek, Wayne Simmonds and some hope. He once again overpaid for another free agent, Ilyz Bryzgalov. He’s overhauled the roster three times and has no more excuses left. If Philly bombs early in the playoffs, Holmgren is out.
I’m not sure about that analysis:
- Snider called for the goaltender, leaving Holmgren with no choice
- there’s a chance Snider called for the Richards/Carter trades, and I doubt Homer didn’t at least consult Snider before trading the face of the franchise
- the events of the 09 offseason did not cost the Flyers Simon Gagne. Meszaros + Walker = Gagne’s salary…
- if the Flyers fail in the first round, I think Homer’s still got his job. If the Flyers don’t make the playoffs, then maybe he ought to be worried…
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Sep 29, 2011 9:26 AM EDT reply actions
Has whomever wrote this ever followed the Flyers? There is a blood oath between ownership and management personalities like Holmgren and Clarke. Doesn’t he know we only hold coaches responsible around here if not the occasional superstar.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
Despite all that the team has had quite of bit of success under Homer. You can argue the payroll and overpaying but you can’t argue with the results. Unfortunately the contracts that were his worst signings was Randy Jones which cost us Mike Knuble.
The flyers have had a tremendous amount of success under Holmgren. There are only 8 teams in all of hockey that made the playoffs each of the last 4 years (when Holmgren was working full-time instead of coming in after the season started). Out of those teams, only four have made to the conference finals twice. Detroit, Pittsburgh, San Jose, and Philly are those four. Chicago made the conference finals twice too but have only been in the playoffs the last 3 yrs. That’s some good success that I think most people take for granted when discussing Holmgren’s mistakes.
ARGH
Last season’s culprit was beer and goaltending.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
You understand that the writer meant that was last year’s excuse, not last year’s actual problem, right?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Oh. I did not.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I guess it’s not 100% clear, but that’s how I read it. He mentions “non-stop excuses” at the start and then doesn’t exactly sound to me like he thinks Holmgren fixed real problems here:
Last season’s culprit was beer and goaltending. In response, Holmgren traded Richards and Carter away for Jakub Voracek, Wayne Simmonds and some hope. He once again overpaid for another free agent, Ilyz Bryzgalov. He’s overhauled the roster three times and has no more excuses left. If Philly bombs early in the playoffs, Holmgren is out.
Maybe I’m projecting, but that’s how I read it anyway.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Sounds like an excuse for not getting laid at a sorority party, not problems with a hockey team.
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by MaximumTalbot on Sep 29, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I will say that looking at it now would you trade Gagne for Meszaros, Walker, and Noebles.
I know thats not what happened exactly but it kinda was in a way. Looking at it on those terms I do it everytime and twice on Sunday.
if you would not make that trade your off your rocker. I take Meszaros straight up for Gagne. Gagne is ok but very injury prone and not the player he once was.
If Meszaros can prove he can play top pairing minutes, then maybe I’d make the trade straight up. Being saddled with Walker’s terrible contract and worse health just makes a Mez, Walker, Noebels trade for Gagne awful.
Mourning Gagne forever.
Meszaros can and would be a top 4 pairing on any other team. Walker’s contract doesn’t matter cause he can just be put in the AHL and Noebeles contract means less. Gagne never reached full potential, not his fault, but injuries cut into his carrier. Gagne was a very good player but at this point is a shell of his former self.
I’m with Matt on this one. On a team that’s willing to bury his contract in the minors and still spend to the cap, I don’t really care about Walker.
Gagne for Meszaros saves the team NHL cap space, and I think they need a young top-4-caliber defenseman more than a veteran top-6 forward.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I disagree with his assessment of Gagne never reaching full potential (mainly because that is so subjective), but my problem is the premise of the question.
In 2010-11, the Flyers would have greatly benefited from having Simon Gagne on their team – evidenced by them going out and acquiring Kris Versteeg. They did benefit from having Andrej Meszaros on their team, but if they had kept their second round pick and Gagne and signed a cheaper alternative (Toni Lydman, for example, is a guy I mentioned four separate times in the three weeks after the trade as one I would have been good with), who could they have traded for at the deadline instead?
The long-term benefits are so difficult to analyze now that the team has been completely re-vamped, but in 2010-11, it was an unnecessary trade ahead of the FA market that necessitated the dumping of a serviceable (“good 2nd line LW” according to the PPP graph above) forward for nothing.
I still don’t like the trade. I will never like the trade.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I did word it badly but what I meant by “not reaching full potential” was that I feel that Gagne could have been better if he did not have so many injuries in his day. IMO I think Gagne could have been a better player had he not been hit with so many injuries which is not a slight on him, I think Gagne was very good and had the potential to be unbelievable without the injuries.
Now as far as Meszaros goes imangine what position the Flyers would be in without him. We have Carle and Coby up for UFA this year. Where would we be if they walk without him. That gives the team leverage in a way.
I know a lot of people love Gagne, I liked him too but he is not even close to the same player that he was 6 or 7 years ago. I think some people give him a little more than he really is at this point because he was on the team for a long time and he was their favorite player. Gagne was a good soldier and a good player but he is not that same player he was time to let him go.
Yeah, I’m not going to debate Gagne’s potential. A two-time 40 goal scorer, four-time 30 goal scorer, premier two-way player… Even if he could have been better, he was still damn good.
Where would the Flyers be without Meszaros? Who knows. Would the team have traded for a defensemen at the deadline last year instead of Versteeg? Would the team have signed a cheap alternative? With Gagne reaching FA this past summer, that money becomes free to sign someone else. There’s just too many what-if’s at this point.
Anybody who argues against the deal because Gagne was a good player 5 years ago should be mocked. I wanted Gagne to stay because he would have been a fantastic 3 LW last year. It could have been Gagne – Richards – Nodl, behind Hartnell-Briere-Leino and JVR-Giroux-Carter. That team would have been fantastic. The #5 defenseman would have been Milan Jurcina or someone similar, but if Pronger gets hurt, you have $5 million to go replace him with.
Last year’s team wouldn’t have been any worse, and this year’s team wouldn’t have had as much shuffling to do.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I just look at what Meszaros brings to the table for the future and I think it was a good move for the Flyers beyond this year and last year. We got a guy who can replace one of our Top 4 if one leaves which probably will happen. I like Gagne I don’t want it to sound like I don’t, and last year’s third line would have been great. My beef is that how much money is a third line last years would have been over 10 million with Gagne. That is crazy for a third line. Not to mention he is going to give you half a season at 5 million. Now we did not know that last year but we had a pretty good idea of it. So yea a the third line looks great but after you consider that you will have it for half a year and that it costs over 10 million that is a bit stiff.
1) Lydman (3M) + Gagne (5.25M) cost more than Meszaros (4M) plus Zherdev (2M) plus post-trade Versteeg (0.9M). I don’t recall the cap numbers exactly, but I know things were tight — are you sure there was room for what you propose?
2) Your evaluation above is based solely on last year. I’m taking more of a team roster lifecycle management view: I’m distinctly concerned about the age of their top defensemen and lack of high-quality prospects in the pipeline, and (especially if we rewind to before the Richards/Carter trades) not at all concerned about the current forward depth. So a 25-year-old defenseman is going to get the benefit of the doubt from me when compared to a 31-year-old forward.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Not only that Gagne had 40 pts last year and was a minus 12
Meszaros had 32 pts. and was a plus 30
Gagne missed 19 games
Meszaros missed 1 game
Meszaros just entering his prime will be 26 on Oct. 13
Gagne is going to turn 32 in Feb. and is injured quite often
I was going to backpedal from this on the grounds that a) neither Geoff nor I puts much stock in plus/minus, and b) Gagne plays top defensive minutes while Meszaros played sheltered minutes.
But Gagne was 8/12 on TB in both defensive zone starts and Corsi Rel QoC. He was first on the team in both Corsi qualteam measures. And yet his Corsi Rel was negative. By all measures, it looks like a bit of a tough year for him.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
He didn’t have a good year, but he did suffer from shitty luck (remember how bad Tampa’s goalies were pre-Roloson?) and still put up 40 points, which makes him an average-to-good second line forward. Add in defensive abilities, and you have a guy similar to Kris Versteeg, who the Flyers went out and got anyway.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
It sounds like you’re arguing my side now.
Meszaros + Zherdev was substantially cheaper than Gagne + whatever #5 D you wanted to add. That difference allowed them to go out and get a forward who you’re saying was similar to Gagne and much younger.
Why would you rather have Gagne Milan Jurcina (who faced the 6th toughest competition on his team and had a Corsi Rel of -8.5) than a forward who you say is similar to Gagne but much younger and Meszaros (who beat bottom-pair competition)?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Because I don’t mind trading Gagne. My position often doesn’t fit what people think I’m arguing, so let me break down my opinions:
- I don’t mind trading Gagne, as he was an injury risk who was no longer worth his cap hit.
- I don’t like trading a second round draft pick for a guy the morning of free agency.
- I don’t like trading a second round draft pick when the team doesn’t have many draft picks.
- I don’t like signing Zherdev before you have the cap space to afford him.
- I don’t like going forward with your plans before you have Gagne waive his NTC.
- I don’t like bullying a guy to waive his NTC.
- I don’t like getting back garbage in a trade for a 40-point, two way forward.
If the trade was actually Gagne for Meszaros + 4th, I don’t think anybody would be crazy enough to complain about it. But it wasn’t. The actual events are being ironed out in the above hypothetical, which is making my objections appear unreasonable. But what actually happened was a lot more wrinkled than is currently being let on.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
This is why I haven’t hopped on to this discussion, because this is basically my opinion, and neither side that was being discussed was necessarily in disagreement with this, both just had small details I disagreed with.
That’s my 2 pennies, not that anyone asked.
Something something, something something, something; I don't like you.
Yeah, it’s tough to get in this discussion when I disagree with what the Flyers did, but largely agree with how people are justifying it (“It was just Gagne for Meszaros, Walker, and Noebels”).
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m okay with it as long as people are willing to admit that they are justifying haha.
Also answer my damn text and email.
Something something, something something, something; I don't like you.
Thank you, now to see if it worked…
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OK. I’m with you on almost all of that. I’m a little more comfortable trading away a second round pick than you are, and I think your first and last bullet points are in a bit of discord (if he’s no longer worth his cap hit, that implies you could get a better player for the same cost as a UFA, so I wouldn’t expect to get any value in return for him in trade). But I agree that the situation was handled poorly on several levels.
I chimed in in response to Todd’s “Being saddled with Walker’s terrible contract and worse health just makes a Mez, Walker, Noebels trade for Gagne awful.” If we’re going to evaluate it as an aggregate deal like that, I don’t think that hypothetical trade is awful at all. I recognize that it wasn’t actually all one trade, but that’s how the discussion was framed.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I agree with your second paragraph. And while an injury prone player no longer worth his cap hit is not going to bring back a lot of value, he certainly should bring back more than a 4th round pick and another injury risk player not worth his cap hit for multiple years.
In other words, Gagne should have brought back more than a negative-value player and a 4th round pick.
But since we’re largely in agreement, I’m now sad that our argument is over.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Here, let me help you out a little.
“Matt Calvert is wildly overrated.”
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I can’t really get into this because I’m on my phone, but the addition of Walker is really what ruins the trade in my opinion. It’s two players worth of cap and an unmoveable contract that has to be hidden in the AHL.
Did Mez prove he could be a top four defender last season given the chance? I don’t recall. His presence means it’s more than likely that one of Coburn or Carle are gone at the end of the season, and I think I’d prefer either of them over Mez (depending on what they end up signing for)
Mourning Gagne forever.
by ToddtheFox on Oct 1, 2011 12:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, to me Walker is almost irrelevant, as long as the team is perfectly willing to bury him in the AHL and still spend to the cap.
Carle had a better Corsi with Mez than with Pronger last year. I wouldn’t say Mez proved anything yet, but I’m pretty comfortable believing he can be a top-4 guy.
I agree that I value Coburn and Carle more than Mez. But I think the team needs to keep all three. With no top-4 candidates in the pipeline and Pronger/Timonen turning 38 next year, they’ll end up breaking the bank for UFA guys if they don’t keep their own.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
But Pronger is still under contract for 5 more years, four more after this season.
Since we all know he’s playing until 42, why do you need to replace him with a guy who will be 31 by then?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 1, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Since we all know he’s playing until 42, why do you need to replace him with a guy who will be 31 by then?
Because Timonen will be out of here much sooner.
But Timonen and Meszaros play completely different styles. Matt Carle is Timonen’s replacement, not Andrej Meszaros.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 2, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
There would have been room to acquire Lydman if the team was:
Hartnell – Briere – Leino ($11.5m)
JVR – Giroux – Carter ($7,475,832)
Gagne – Richards – Nodl ($11.85m)
Powe – Betts – Carcillo ($2.5m)
Kalinski ($875k)
Forwards – $34,200,832
Carle, Pronger, Coburn, Timonen, Lydman, Syvret, Bartulis
Defense – $22,092,262
Bob, Boucher
Goalies – $2,650,000
Total 22 man roster = $58,968,094
Lappy would have to be on LTIR, (over the cap by $734,761 with the 23 man roster) assuming the bonus cushion didn’t cover it, which I think it would have, but even if it didn’t, the Flyers were on LTIR for about 140 days last year anyway.
I was speaking of last year, because with the Flyers trading Carter and Richards this year, who knows what they would have done with their money this summer if they didn’t have Meszaros? Would they have signed Christian Ehroff to a deal he didn’t deserve instead of signing Bryz to one? Would they have realized “hey, we don’t need five defensemen making $4m+, we’re going to keep going with the cheaper, short term guy”?
I get why you like Meszaros on this team – I like having a young core of three guys as well – but I continue to evaluate Gagne for Meszaros, Walker, and Noebels in terms of last year. That’s where we differ.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
but I continue to evaluate Gagne for Meszaros, Walker, and Noebels in terms of last year
Noebels freaking sucked last year.
Evaluating a trade based solely on the year that immediately follows it biases things dramatically towards the guy who’s six years older. And even still, I’m not sure I prefer that roster — I don’t think Gagne outperformed the Zherdev/Versteeg duo, I’m not sure about Lydman vs Meszaros (and don’t know what you’d do if Lydman didn’t want to sign with the Flyers), and you would’ve had Kalinski (or similar) in your lineup for about half the season because of injuries to Gagne or others.
If it’s unclear whether one lineup is better than another, how can you not pick the guy that gives you six more years of production?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
First, it’s not Noebels, it’s a fourth round pick. There was no name to that pick.
Second, I evaluate based on last year as what the Flyers needed at the time. The Flyers were coming off an Eastern Conference Championship, needed to replace Arron Asham, Ian Laperriere, Ryan Parent, and Lukas Krajicek. That’s it. How do you fix that team? I don’t do it by going out and getting a 25 year old, $4 million third-pairing defenseman.
Third, I am not evaluating the trade based on results (“I don’t think Gagne outperformed the Zherdev/Versteeg duo”), I’m evaluating it based on what it was at the time.
Third, Lydman may very well have been worse than Meszaros last year. But just as the argument is every summer, “he’s coming to the Flyers, therefore he will obviously be better”. If Lydman is on the Flyers, doesn’t his PP time go up? Doesn’t he get better goaltending than in ANA? Doesn’t he have a better top-9 than in ANA? Doesn’t the have a better top-4 than in ANA? For all the reasons Meszaros succeeded on the third pairing in Philadelphia, Lydman could have as well.
Fourth, if Lydman didn’t want to sign with the Flyers, I look to Kurtis Foster ($1.8m), Jordan Leopold ($3m), Henrik Tallinder ($3.375m), Mark Eaton ($2.5m), Milan Jurcina ($1m), Brett Clark ($1.5m), or even Niklas Hjalmarsson ($3.5m). There are plenty of options.
Lastly, I would not have had Kalinski in my lineup for about half the season. Kalinski is my 13th forward, the guy who can sit in the press box and step into a game in a pinch. I would have had David Laliberte, Pat Maroon, Eric Wellwood, Ben Holmstrom, Mike Testwuide, and Zac Rinaldo at the start of the year. No, they aren’t Nik Zherdev, But it’s not just Kalinski.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’re going to insist on evaluating Gagne and Meszaros only based on last year, then I’m only evaluating that pick based on last year. That pick contributed nothing last year.
I don’t think it was unforeseeable before the year that Versteeg would be comparable to Gagne. In ‘09-10, Gagne faced top competition with above-average zone starts and had a Corsi Rel of 3 and 40 points. Versteeg faced second pair copetition with below average zone starts and had a Corsi Rel of -1 and 44 points. Zherdev was more unknown, but had a record as a Corsi beast and a goal scorer. I don’t think it’s playing results to say Gagne doesn’t look like a clear win compared to that duo.
needed to replace Arron Asham, Ian Laperriere, Ryan Parent, and Lukas Krajicek. That’s it.
We disagree here. Although I didn’t recognize it at the time, the team also needed to start replacing Pronger and Timonen in their top 4. They didn’t need to add a defenseman specifically for the ‘10-11 season, but they did need to restock their pipeline on defense. I don’t think your list of Foster/Leopold/Tallinder/Eaton/Jurcina/Clark does that.
Lastly, I would not have had Kalinski in my lineup for about half the season. Kalinski is my 13th forward
And Gagne missed 20 games, Briere missed 5, a bunch of other people missed a game here or there. Whether it’s Kalinski or Wellwood or Rinaldo or whoever, the 13th forward would get a fair bit of playing time and wouldn’t be very good.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
If you’re going to insist on evaluating Gagne and Meszaros only based on last year, then I’m only evaluating that pick based on last year. That pick contributed nothing last year.
It may be semantics, but I’m not evaluating Gagne and Meszaros only based on last year. I’m evaluating the trades based on how they appeared at the time, in regards to the Flyers needs for last year.
I don’t think it’s playing results to say Gagne doesn’t look like a clear win compared to that duo.
But you are including Versteeg, who doesn’t come into the picture until February. Gagne v. Zherdev may look good, but the Flyers clearly didn’t know how to use Zherdev. Or how to make it work. It was a risk at the time, and it failed. The results don’t matter, but Gagne v. Zherdev is a slight win for Gagne.
They didn’t need to add a defenseman specifically for the ‘10-11 season, but they did need to restock their pipeline on defense.
I disagree. The team could have had Syvret, Bartulis, Gustafsson, Marshall, Bourdon, Lauridsen, etc. In all, it comes down to: Did the Flyers regroup to take a shot in 2010-11 with a long eye toward the future, or did they take a risk on Meszaros (a guy, lest I remind people, who failed miserably in a top-4 role in Tampa) being able to not only replace Pronger this year, but to be able to afford four defensemen costing $3.2m+.
I was one who thought Pronger, Carle, Timonen, Coburn, Syvret, Bartulis, and a FA short-term fix is good. I don’t think the Flyers needed a third 25 year old defenseman this past year because Pronger and Timonen are old.
Whether it’s Kalinski or Wellwood or Rinaldo or whoever, the 13th forward would get a fair bit of playing time and wouldn’t be very good.
But rather than dressing Shelley for 58 games, the Flyers would dress a guy who can play defense. Rather than only dressing Carcillo for 57 games, they’d dress him as many as he was healthy for.
It isn’t as simple as "Gagne and Zherdev miss time, you replace them with crap." I bench Shelley, and improve the fourth line for 58 games. I play Carcillo more games. The biggest complaint you have is that Wellwood would go from 3 games to ~15 games. That’s a small quibble to me.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
a guy, lest I remind people, who failed miserably in a top-4 role in Tampa
Yeah, well, like I said — last year, I didn’t like the moves because everything I heard about Meszaros sounded bad and I didn’t yet recognize the upcoming need. I now think more highly of Meszaros and see the need.
My argument is definitely predicated on the assumption that the team knew Meszaros would be a top-4-caliber defenseman. And I still don’t know enough about his time in Tampa to say whether they were likely to be right about it, so I have to play results here and say that I now believe they were right.
Your last paragraph confuses me. You quoted a lineup with 12 forwards who in aggregate missed half a season. Doesn’t that mean that your 13th forward (Kalinski or some other AHLer) would have been in the lineup for half the season? How do you look at that lineup and say Wellwood (or whoever) only plays 15 games, when Gagne alone was out for more than that?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
1) Meszaros didn’t prove a top-4 caliber defenseman last year. Mostly because he wasn’t given a chance to prove himself, but he didn’t do it.
2) If Pronger and Timonen remain healthy this season, is the need still there? Just because Pronger missed large chunks of the season with a broken hand, a bum knee, and a bad back doesn’t mean the team needed to replace him last year. There’s a difference between seeing a future need and saying “we need to replace Pronger as he enters his first year of a seven year contract”.
Yeah, need I remind you that you now see the need to replace a guy with six years left on his contract? Sounds kind of ridiculous.
3) Let’s attempt to come up with 984 games played out of 12 NHL forwards from my top-12:
Carcillo – 57
Gagne – 63
Nodl – 67
van Riemsdyk – 75
Betts – 75
Briere – 77
Carter – 80
Richards – 81
Leino – 81
Powe – 81
Hartnell – 82
Giroux – 82
Total = 901
That leaves 83 games needed to be filled in.
- Except Carcillo was a healthy scratch for ~25 games, so he can play those. Down to 60 games.
- Nodl was a healthy scratch for 15 games, so he can play those. Down to 45 games.
- van Riemsdyk was a healthy scratch for 4, 5 games? (one game for Boynton’s claim, one or two for an injury) Down to 40.
Consider that the tradeoff is now 40 games from Wellwood, Rinaldo, Holmstrom, and Kalinski instead of 40 games from Shelley and I’m quite alright with that.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
1) I admit he didn’t prove it, but I’m now convinced he could.
2) Yeah, I think when your top two defensemen are turning 37 this year and you have no top-4-caliber prospects in the system, you have a need. If they just try to restock via the draft, the help won’t come soon enough. It’s not just about a backup plan for this year (though that is part of it).
3) Yeah, like I said, you needed your 13th forward for 40 games. I’m glad you finally agreed with me on that; I’m not sure where you got 15 from before.
I think bringing Shelley into the equation is really conflating arguments. They could have made the Meszaros/Gagne swap discussed above and used a lineup of HBL/JvR-Giroux-Carter/Nodl-Richards-Zherdev/Powe-Betts-Carcillo. Then their 13th forward would’ve gotten something like 8-10 games before the Versteeg trade and none after.
The fact that the team separately chose to sign Shelley and play him ahead of those other guys is immaterial here. Your lineup adds an injury-prone player and removes the cap flexibility to sign a 13th NHL-caliber forward in the off-season, both of which hurt the forward depth. The fact that the Flyers mistakenly used that cap space to add Shelley and mistakenly called him their 12th forward has no bearing.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I am looking at it like this:
Even if Pronger and Timmonen were not looking to be replaced by the team at the time they still knew that at the end of this year they have 2 of their top 4 going into UFA.
They moved a 40pt. guy who is injury prone and who was 30. A guy mind you who has not played 80 games for at the time the last 7 seasons.
They got Meszaros who they thought with pretty good reason because of his play with the Senators where he put up 71 points in his first two seasons in the league. Who was also only 24 when they signed him and played on a not so good Tampa team for the previous 2 seasons.
Now they paid Meszaros good money but still with the upside that he has and what they thought he could be is not that bad. Now take in the fact that we have 2 of our top 4 going into UFA this year and the fact that Gagne was making 5+ million and has not played a full season in 7 years to that point. I think the Flyers planned ahead something I think we all wish they would do more.
I’m not attempting to include Shelley in the argument. Truthfully, I had to cut Shelley in order to get 13 forwards. So it’s not so much a “the Flyers shouldn’t have signed him” as it is a “the Flyers couldn’t have signed him”
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Backing up:
Part of my point is that both the increased cost of Gagne/Lydman (relative to Zherdev/Mez) and Gagne’s injury history reduced the forward depth in your lineup.
After the trade, the team had a lineup that didn’t have any glaring injury fears, had money to spend $1.1M on another forward, and had money to spend $3M more on another forward at the deadline. Before the trade, with none of those things, you produced a lineup that put an AHLer in the lineup for 40 games.
You defended that by saying you removed Shelley from the lineup and so it wasn’t worse, but the Shelley move was separate — my team could have used that 1.1M for a better 4th liner, so I reject that as a defense of keeping Gagne.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Certainly, Gagne costs more. But the Flyers went over the cap by $1.4 million last year, even with their “money to spend”. So, they didn’t actually have it.
Secondly, the Flyers were on LTIR about 85% of the season, while I’m almost positive my team wouldn’t be – thus they too would have had money to acquire a player at the deadline.
So either my team doesn’t endure a $1.4 million penalty this season, or they go out and acquire a Versteeg-type player, reducing the AHLer’s 40 games.
In either scenario, I feel your concerns aren’t applicable.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 1, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to agree that Lydman and Gagne cost more than Meszaros and Zherdev, right?
You’re saying you can still fit a team together with those two. I agree with that. But it requires using AHLers as the 13th forward and 7th defenseman instead of spending $1M+ on a veteran 4th liner and 6th dman.
I just don’t understand how you can put together a roster with Kalinski playing half the season and Syvret playing the whole season and deny that the Flyers’ path allowed them to add depth.
It seems undeniable that Zherdev and Meszaros cost less than Gagne and Lydman. It seems undeniable that the extra cap space allowed them to field a deeper roster. That doesn’t mean you have to think the swap was a good decision, but I don’t understand how you can argue that the move didn’t add the cap flexibility to make the team deeper.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Lemme back up again:
- You said you wanted Lydman
- I asked whether Lydman would fit
- You said yes and quoted a roster with Lydman on it
- I pointed out that that roster lacked depth
I agree with you that the team could have squeezed Lydman in. I wasn’t sure, but you added up the numbers and showed they could.
However, squeezing him in is only possible if the team passes on a few other moves they made. They wouldn’t have been able to add a veteran forward or defenseman.
As a result, Bartulis would’ve been in the lineup from day 1 and Syvret as soon as Bartulis got hurt, and another AHLer when Pronger got hurt. An AHLer would’ve been in the lineup every time Gagne or another forward got hurt.
So I’ll agree that the team could fit Lydman in, but I’m not sure Lydman/Gagne would have been any better than Meszaros/Zherdev, and it would cost the team cap space that they used to add depth. That’s all I’m trying to say, and I don’t see how you can disagree.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Really far off topic and very random
I have recently moved my office to my home and now have the option of television while I’m working. The mornings are pretty slim pickins after the 3rd replay of both sportscenter and sportsrise. I have stumbled on an utterly bizzare but enticing little program called “Charmed”. Now of course there has long been a interest in Alyssa Milano, but I am finding myself paying way too much attention to the characters and plot lines, loosely speaking of course. Am I insane or what?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
You’re TV interests and inability to imbibe alcohol definitely do not match up with your appearance and love for enforcers.
Something something, something something, something; I don't like you.
Fair warning, if your getting addicted to Charmed it is best to avoid the following shows at risk of losing the next year of your life:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Supernatural, Reaper, Moonlight, Firefly.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
No one should avoid Firefly. In fact, I think I might watch it again.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
True, no one should avoid it. But unfortunately there’s a small enough amount of content that it might not take a year off of M’s life if he avoids the rest of the list…
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t avoid any of those shows… except maybe that season of buffy with the military and Adam. That season sucked, save for Spike being funny as hell.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Between Charmed and the Crocs I am starting to wonder if you have a pink Sean Avery jersey hiding in your closet.
My power-lifting champion F-I-L wears Crocs. Forsberg bought the patent rights for Europe. I see nothing unmanly about Crocs.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Most guys who see nothing wrong with crocs also don’t see vaginas unless it is preceded by a financial transaction.
I am a woman.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Therefore it doesn’t apply
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
Follow me @HTJohnMoritz (BSH is doing it, why aren't you)
by FlyerFan139 on Sep 29, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
now I am visualizing a woman in front of a mirror with no pants wearing crocs.
I blame you doubleh.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
What? It’s a personal opinion and one that doesn’t require stats. Jesus, I think some of you people just like to fight for the sake of fucking fighting.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Well, I’m also someone that wouldn’t be caught dead in flip-flops. If I ever caught one of my buddies wearing crocs or uggs, though, they would get punched right in the forehead.
I'm kind of a dick.
Really? No flip-flops? Not even on the beach? To run to the mailbox? I love flops. A life without flops seems unliveable. I don’t wear them with dress clothes, however; unlike some girls I know. $300 dress with $5 flops. Stupid.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
They’re insanely uncomfortable to me. And the sound the make drives me nuts. I would live my life barefoot if I could.
I'm kind of a dick.
I would, too, but there are some places that are so disgusting, you’ve gotta have shoes. Britney, that means public gas station bathrooms.
Also, sometimes the sand is too fricken hot.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
There are times down here that any surface (except grass) is too hot to walk on in bare feet. I grew up only wearing shoes when I was at school or going out somewhere – in the neighborhood, I was always barefoot. As an adult, I can’t walk barefoot on sidewalks, asphalt, or sand for half the year, because I will get burns on my feet.
Bob.
Why in gods name would anyone be even NEAR a gas station bathroom in bare feet??? I prefer high-top boots to go in most of them.
And I agree with Van; flip-flops are appropriate ONLY on the beach. And Crocs are only reasonable on nurses/doctors, because they’re more comfortable than plastic overshoes and easier to clean than CoreFrams.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 30, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
You ever notice how people tend to feel very strongly about the shoes they hate most? People don’t feel that way about shirts or pants.
I know people who loathe Docksiders. Penny loafers. Crocs. Men in sandals. I know European women who screech at the thought of wearing sneakers.
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
oh, and that feeling. I don’t have that for any pair of shoes. But it is the way I feel about Steve Coates whenever I hear him speak. He’s like a pair of Crocs with a microphone.
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I won’t wear em, but I know a lot of guys who do. Comfort is manly*.
*Man Uggs still aren’t.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Yeah, I mean, it’s not like the guys I know wear pink ones. They’re like army green or whatever. Anyway, my husband’s father was an Olympic medalist in Powerlifing (who worked the same circuit as Ferrigno and Schwarzeneggar in their hey days) and wears them—still could kick anyone’s ass even at the ripe old age of 56—I ain’t telling him he’s “unmanly” for wearing them. Dude can lift a fricken CAR.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Yeah but he looks kind of girly lifting that car in his crocs.
Kidding of course, I just couldn’t resist the setup.
Something something, something something, something; I don't like you.
Niiice. Of course, after the taunt, he could say “Here, come hold this for me for a minute while I go smoke my cigarette.” And then you’re dead.
That’s the one thing that kills me about him: he’s this fitness freak, is against eating “bottom feeding” animals, eats all natural foods, etc., and SMOKES like 1/2 pack of cigarettes a day. I told him it’s difficult for me to take you seriously, Dad.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
The last sentence is why I respect you so much.
Something something, something something, something; I don't like you.
Are they ‘natural’ smokes, like American Spirits at least?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 30, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
You joined St. Louis Game Time yesterday? You do have extra time on your hands these days, don’t you.
Yes you are right. But I have been selfishly looking at roster moves in St Louis to see if the statistically dominant DSOD can crack that gaggle fools line up. I am assuming not but you never no when a franchise will see what having a corsi legend on your roster could do.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
by MJDII on Sep 29, 2011 12:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he got waived from St. Lou the other day.
So… not cracking it at least for the start of the season.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Which I told M would happen as soon as Syvret signed with STL. But he’s going to gloat anyway.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
still think we should bank some money so we can grab him at ~200K just in time for the Winter Classic. (When St L tries to call him up because their blueline all ends up hurt)
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
I’d suggest netflix, there’s a lot of content, and it’ll be damn hard to run out of things to watch
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I am really only looking for background noise but it caught more of my attention then expected.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
back ground noise? Pawn Stars? American Pickers?
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Marc-Andre Fleury's Mask
Since he put puck scuffs (which would be a good name for Travis’ article) on his mask, can that be taken as an invite to shoot at his head?
No No No
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20110929_COUTURIER_CAN_DELIVER.html
Man this got me riled up this morning.
Discuss:
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Yea I hate fucking embedded links to articles to it just pisses me off to no friggin end! The damn orange bolded letters and meaningless symbols.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
WTF Frank, suggesting both Betts AND Nodl might be left off the roster? The very thought of that is giving me a headache.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, because if you want to clear cap space, go with the guys who provide immense value for under $850k each.
Cap space!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I have a somewhat horrifying vision of having too many rookies on our PK units, and them getting picked apart by teams with good PP units (my initial vision was something like the Bolts PP last year when it was clicking). I’m not opposed to rookies joining the PK ranks, but they’ve gotta be phased in since they haven’t really seen NHL level competition before.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Giroux Talbot Betts and Nodl should be our top 4 PKers with Simmonds next in line that puts rookies with little experience at the NHL level in the #5 and #6 spots.
Jordan Stall was PITTS top PKer his rookie season over 3 minutes of his 14 minutes TOI per game was on the PK. He scored 7 SH Goals 9 pts.
Richards played over 2:30 on the PK his rookie season as well.
It is not unheard for Rookies to play on the PK especially if they come out of Juniors playing PK and are taughted as two way smart players like Richards, Stall, Coutier and Schenn.
With Giroux Betts Talbot and Nodl there shouldn’t be a pressing need to over use the rookies.
With Giroux Betts Talbot and Nodl there shouldn’t be a pressing need to over use the rookies.
Right, but Seravalli’s article suggested both Nodl and Betts wouldn’t make the team. That leaves us with Giroux and Talbot, to be rounded out by Schenn, Read, Couturier, JVR, and Simmonds on his theoretical roster. I’d like to keep Betts and Nodl on the team, thank you very much.
As of yesterday, Matt Read appears to be a lock, perhaps even taking Andreas Nodl’s roster spot away in the process.That’s where I started to want to hit my head on my desk.
…
With Chris Pronger’s uncertainty – though he has steadily increased his practice participation and the Flyers are “very optimistic” about his Opening-Night status – do they need to carry an extra defenseman like Oskars Bartulis?
If so, that means one forward must go. With a surplus of available penalty killers, that could mean Blair Betts, even with his ridiculous shorthanded-time to even-strength-time ratio, could be the odd man out.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
and to top it all off lets take out Nodl and Betts, oh and only carry 6 D-Men.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
This is so insane I don’t even no where to begin. I do agree Read is going to take Nodl’s spot but not his roster spot his spot as the “3rd line winger” and he will be playing with Schenn and Simmonds but Nodl will be on the PKer line / 4th line of Talbot-Betts-Nodl like I said all summer.
After that Servalli goes nut and is trying to sell papers or get on the air on sports talk radio because trading Nodl and Betts is a horrendous idea if you want to free up cap space. Shelly is sitting there on the bench most like makes more on the cap or as much as Nodl and Betts combined. If push really came to shove Shelly will be waived before Betts and Nodl got traded.
Just to emphasize something you said; I agree that both Betts and Nodl would need to be traded rather than waived. They’re too valuable as role players and too cheap. If Betts hypothetically cleared waivers on the way down (a big if, for me), I don’t see any way in hell he makes it back through re-entry without getting scooped up for 350K. Similar deal with Nodl, on re-entry somebody might be thrilled to have him for 2 years at 422K. My opinion, at least.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, not to mention we probably wouldn’t get back much for either of them (late round picks). Betts comes off the books next year so we should really take advantage of having a veteran PK/defensive specialist incase Schenn needs some help early in the season.
by youtastelikeaburger on Sep 29, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Putting them on waivers would be Glen Metropolit and [insert name of the other player who was claimed that year here.] (Dowd, maybe?) all over again.
Randy Jones is who I think you’re thinking of. If I’m not mistaken, Metropolit got taken on the way down to Adirondack; while the Jones miscalculation left us paying half his salary because it was re-entry.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he’s thinking of Vaananen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, good call. I forgot that was the same year for some reason.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Having Couturier and Schenn on the roster is more interesting from a reporter’s agenda because it keeps the summer’s controversy alive. If they perform well stories can be written about how Richards and Carter were overrated and with the new leadership in place the team is in harmony, so see there was a cancer in the room. If they perform poorly they can talk about the pressure on management, the goalie, Pronger, whomever…because the team traded away its best shot at winning (never mind the age differences).
Why would you want to write about Betts and Nodl when you could write about all that?
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
As much as I love the idea of Schenn and Couturier on the roster to start the season, it’s purely based on curiousity. Honestly, I don’t think either of them should start the season with the Flyers.
by mantis toboggan on Sep 29, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
If Couturier is sent back to Drummondville, he would be wiped off the cap and the 3-year contract he signed last week won’t begin until next season. Unless the Flyers call him up again.
That makes keeping him up make even less sense
by mantis toboggan on Sep 29, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
From the comments
Couturier should be here, just like JVR should have been here a year earlier. Let him learn while there is zero pressure on him.
Flyers are one of the best organizations in sports. They are always going for it, we are better then we were last year. We have a goalie and a PP. Yea bob is so great, man your dumb. He could be good maybe in the future, but Bryz is a stud.
Pure genius.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
My only problem with no Betts or Nodl is who the heck is gonna play on the 4th line? I mean, Rinaldo, Talbot, Shelley would make me squeamish(even though I do love Talbot). And who would PK? Simmonds, Talbot, Giroux, ???.
Obviously its a good problem to have. Despite my concerns for long term success from Read, he has done everything to earn the roster spot. Couturier will grow more in the NHKL then he will in Jrs., and I really think that the Flyers want him here. Scheen Has been doing everything right so far. Not on the scoresheet, but his positions is very strong. Its not like all 3 haven’t proven their worth(or in Sean’s case, proven that the QMJHL is beneath his skill set).
After this summer, I’m pretty much in a “go with the flow” mentality for this season. If the Flyers want bread, let them eat cake.
The Betts suggestion … simply reinforces why I don’t read any of Frannie’s articles.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Sep 29, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yesterday ASF suggested that we might try to trade Hartnell to Nashville what do you guys think of that?
Well, I’m moving to Knoxville at some point next year, it’d be fun to have a flyer to watch while I’m there.
Who the hell would we get back?
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 29, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The words NO TRADE CLAUSE mean anything to you or ASF if they wanted to trade Hartnell they would have done so in the offseason and used his cap space to sign another less paid free agent forward possibly Gagne or Handzus both of whom they were rumored to be interested but couldn’t afford as the signed for 3.5 and 2.5 million respectively. Trading Hartnell now is a waste.
Yes I know about Hartnell’s no trade clause, ASF said Nashville would be one of the places he would waive it for. If we trade Hartnell we could keep Schenn, Couturier, & Read on the roster if that’s what Homer wants to do
That would be great, but what do you think we could actually get back for Hartnell?
by youtastelikeaburger on Sep 29, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Um, I had the OTF folks weigh in on this in June They weren’t sold.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
The other thing that comes to mind is how much that much suck for Harty. Finally gets rid of Carter and his boy Richards, the bad history gone, and then he gets traded away.
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 29, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
the bad history gone
Huh?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Depending on who you ask, Carter was nailing Hartnell’s wife.
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 29, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, that. Personally, I don’t buy it. Stupid rumor.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Im not so sure. I personally think it was the members of the local media (including the folks here at BSH) displaying some class by not covering it.
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 29, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Far as I remember, the rumor didn’t come from a credible source. Everyone seemed to base it on that one blog (that if I remember correct, hadn’t even been up very long) that nobody even knew about. I don’t personally think there was a good reason to take it seriously.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention, if you found out that a coworker was banging your wife, wouldn’t you kick the crap out of them. I don’t ever remember seeing Carter with any bruises. That is not something you work out with a conversation. Cheating spouses usually lead to violence in the regular world. What do you think would happen with people in a profession that is predisposed to violence.
I guess people would handle it differently; but they played on a line together for a while after the rumor started and I’m sure that would have been rough if the rumor was true (which I don’t believe it was).
The bigger picture to me is that the source of the rumor seemed to be the prototypical “faceless blogger in the basement”, which is a stereotype good bloggers, including Travis, have to fight against everyday. It’s not like we cite the made up stuff on Bleacher Report either.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly why do we need space again, if this is LTIR / suspensions issue then you can just start Courtier for the 1st 4-5 games leave Schenn in AHL and wait for the LTIR to clear Shelly to return and then send Courtier back to his junior team.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.250m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.845m)
/ Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $1,402,500
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,858,095; BONUSES: $3,815,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $441,905
Bonuses, etc. that were paid out last year that were carryover’s from last years cap salary.
(Apparently we had the largest carryover in the league, suprise suprise!)
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Yeah.
Maybe others too,but those 2 def. bonused.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
I think this roster is a bit more realistic then trying to add in Courtier, I would love to see him develop against tougher talent than the Q, but I just don’t see how we could move the necessary cap space to fit him in.
by youtastelikeaburger on Sep 29, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Waive Shelley and stop wasting spots in the lineup on enforcers.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Whoops, that roster has Nodl, not Rinaldo.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea, if I were homer, I would waive Shelley and leave Couturier as the 13th forward. Let him practice with the NHL team, and fill in for days people are hurt.
by hebrew hammer on Sep 29, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Capgeek rosters are back it seems. Well, it’s time to go back to the purging
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 11:38 AM EDT reply actions
You know what really grinds my gears?
People who still can’t spell “Couturier” right. His name is everywhere and yet I see things like “Couther” and “Couture”.
Mini-vent over
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
I don’t think most people know how to say it, either. Speaking of names getting mangled, does it bother you as much as the people who mix up Laperriere and Lapierre? That one drove me bonkers.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, that too. I heard someone say that once and almost punched him in the face. About a minute before he said that, he tried to call me out for being a “bandwagon fan”.
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
by FlyerFan139 on Sep 29, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Yay! Leighton is on waivers
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
Follow me @HTJohnMoritz (BSH is doing it, why aren't you)
Haha, Bobby Sanguinetti too; the Rangers grabbing him right before us looks better and better for the Flyers every year.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Imagine if the Rangers had Giroux though…we’d be screwed
OMB!
Flyers writer at hockeytracker.net
Follow me @HTJohnMoritz (BSH is doing it, why aren't you)
by FlyerFan139 on Sep 29, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
True. But it’s more fun to laugh at the Rangers and know what they could have had, even knowing we would have been stupid enough to overlook him too.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What a terrible contract that was.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Always to the wrong guys, it would seem.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
It’s just to send him home to Glen Falls…highly doubt he’d be claimed at this point.
Chris Pronger: Now the Flyers really do have a Captain Elbows. #Winning
Of the sound mind that Giroux moved out because Briere burnt too many grilled cheeses.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Numbers on the helmets
I really like this idea. I hate waiting until the player turns around to see who they are. Sure, I can recognize some by their stature or the fact that their jersey is always tucked in, but for the others it’d be really helpful…assuming I can read the numbers on my TV. It’s not like their helmets look really cool like if they were required for goalies.
Hey Geoff… Looking at twitter this morning, I think we need to put a priority on starting the Blair Betts appreciation campaign. With the way the media’s talking, it seems to me that even if he stays on the team (like he should) people will be griping about the rookie who ended up getting cut. It’s probably time to start an offensive to combat those silly people who are anti-role players.
Should I start a brainstorming fanpost?
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 12:41 PM EDT reply actions
I do believe you shall.
Remember to know your audience.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, that sounds a lot worse than I meant.
What I meant by that last sentence was: Remember that you aren’t talking to people who care about defense. Or stats. So I think we need to play up how he was Lappy’s other half. How he played with a separated shoulder two years ago. How he went from tryout to three years of contract. And so forth.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
What icd said.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey defense is awesome, people are ignorant to that fact… Nothing like seeing the 4th line pin a team in its own end and get a scoring chance.
"The characters in this picture are all fictitious. Anyone resembling them is better off dead"
Karate' Jerry..... Karate'
Semper Fi...
by lcd24 on Sep 29, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
pin a team in its own end and get a scoring chance.
I think you have defense confused with offense.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I think the line is often very blurry in hockey, and that’s a difficult issue. Does defense have to be on your own end of the ice? If you pick-pocket a guy in the offensive zone on the forecheck, is that defense, or offense? If you make a sick breakout pass from your own corner to the blueline, defense or offense? Is the distinction territory-based, skill-based, or something even more complicated?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I’m going to go with the simple “play without the puck” idea.
I like really simple, black and white definitions, that have lots of exceptions. It might be the lawyer in me. :)
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I agree on that, I just like agresive forchecking and guys who can do the little things no one else wants to do. Guys who can shutdown the scoring lines of other teams.
"The characters in this picture are all fictitious. Anyone resembling them is better off dead"
Karate' Jerry..... Karate'
Semper Fi...
To be fair, two years ago Betts/Lappy/Carbomb was capable of doing that once in while. The synergy with Lappy may have made Betts better; but I think having Shelley with him so often dragged him downa lot last year. If we lose Betts, now we’re pinning the job of carrying Shelley on somebody else. Although the best case scenario is to lose Shelley, but for some reason that doesn’t seem like its on the table.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You are making me very, very, sad with this keeping Shelley and not Betts talk…..
"The characters in this picture are all fictitious. Anyone resembling them is better off dead"
Karate' Jerry..... Karate'
Semper Fi...
Sorry, I’m trying to support keeping Betts, but I’m venting a bit. I’ll work on the FanPost tonight around game time.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 29, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I used to love watching teams go crazy trying to get the puck away from Manderville & Hull in the corners. They could play keep away forever, but everyone was more concerned with the fact that they couldn’t buy a goal to save their lives.
End to end, high scoring games bore me. It’s why I never liked basketball. Well, that and all the showboating. I love defensive games. I loved all the 1-0 games in the 90’s. The best game I’ve ever seen was the 5OT game. Sitting there for hours, glued to the tv, waiting to see who was going to finally make a mistake that cost them the game.
Thats because that game was amazing.
And also because we won.
And also because screw you Penguins.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
I didn’t know they were going to win until they did, yet I was glued to the tv for hours prior to that. What made it an amazing game was the fact that it went so long without a goal. It was a nail biter. They sold you the whole seat, but you only needed the edge. (greatest awesomely bad radio ad EVER!)
heh, they quote that in the show Reaper.
Also thats what my sig stands for, the total time of that game on ice.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Shiny new toy syndrome. Then if the rookie makes it and stinks, these same fans will want to trade him for a bag of pucks. See Brown, Dom.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Hey, the fans didn’t give up on Dom Brown.
/re-hashing old arguments for fun.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 29, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think what bothers me most about it is that RAJ seems to be a tad too motivated by the fans’ opinion (or he shares similar viewpoints). I think he’s been really mismanaged. He might end up not being what we had hoped for, but he should be given a fair shot to get there.
What kind of plane is it? Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big ol' Tylenol.
Hit me with tee suggestions as well.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Sep 29, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
it feels weird being off. That being said, tomorrow I think I’m going to catch as many matinees as possible
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 1:28 PM EDT reply actions
Go see Moneyball, I thought it was quite good.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
That’s definitely happening tomorrow. Today was get oil change, ship amazon trade ins, get prescription renewed so on and so forth. Tomorrow is check deposit, fitted hat purchases, matinee movies, prescription pick up and that’s all I can really think about. Moneyball, Take Shelter, Reel Steel, Red State, Drive and Red State. I’ll also be able to catch some of these during a matinee on Columbus day, too
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Red State, gotcha
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You forgot to add a couple of naps to the check list.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
naps are sooooo clutch
but I’ll be honest, after a day of not working, I think I’ll be skipping the nap. A nap after work is hard to turn down, though
I eat sentimentality for breakfast, but stats stop me dead in my tracks
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Sep 29, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Apropos of nothing:
I want a legit Lindros jersey. I’ve been toying with that for awhile and I’ve decided it for sure.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
L or XL
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Sep 29, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Devils bus broke down getting off 95 near Wells Fargo Center and the team had to walk from Broad and Pattison.
Opposing Ilya Bryzgalov as Philadelphia Flyers' goalie since June 23, 2011.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
It got hit by the ghost of Montreal reporter Pat Hickey’s car.
by flyersfaninchicago on Sep 29, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Bringing it down here.
They wouldn’t have been able to add a veteran forward or defenseman.
Yes, they would have. Instead of Shelley/Carcillo, I give you Carcillo/Kalinski. I don’t honestly hear you complaining about the “downgrade” from Shelley to Kalinski, do I? If you don’t want Kalinski, make it Bill Guerin. Make it Adam Hall. Make it anybody. Kalinski was just a guy I picked who was in the system already, but Bill Guerin was on a tryout. Adam Hall was a tryout (If I’m remembering correctly).
And all I did on defense is swap Sean O`Donnell out for Danny Syvret. Again, if you want to say that’s a downgrade, go right ahead.
But I highly doubt anybody would be worried about downgrading from Shelley/O`Donnell to Guerin/Syvret.
As a result, Bartulis would’ve been in the lineup from day 1 and Syvret as soon as Bartulis got hurt, and another AHLer when Pronger got hurt.
This is all pure speculation. Bartulis was healthy and capable from day 1. Who knows when he would have gotten hurt? Syvret, need I remind you, played quite well last year in limited time. After playing quite well in slightly less limited time the year before.
And when Pronger got hurt, the team could have acquired a defenseman instead of acquiring Kris Versteeg.
Needs change. History changes. It’s all speculation. Maybe the Flyers trade for Dennis Wideman. Or Tomas Kaberle. Or Bryan McCabe. Or Matt Niskanen. Or Brent Sopel.
It doesn’t have to be an “AHLer”, as you continue to call it.
I’m not sure Lydman/Gagne would have been any better than Meszaros/Zherdev
I’m not either. Nobody is. I’m simply pointing out that it wasn’t necessary, and I would have done things differently.
it would cost the team cap space that they used to add depth
I disagree with this, since my team doesn’t require the use of LTIR from the beginning of the season (I waive Leighton right away). I’m banking cap space all the way through, allowing me the same amount of money (if not more) to use to make a Kris Versteeg-type acquisition.
And lest you forget, the Flyers, even with their cost-savings move of getting rid of Gagne, still went over the cap last year.
That’s all I’m saying. You don’t have to agree my way is more prudent, but my way isn’t full of AHLers with no money to add depth as you keep saying.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
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