Monday Morning Fly By: Happy Labor Day
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 5, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- The Flyers site wrote a feature on Maxime Talbot: [Philadelphia Flyers]
- Ryan Lambert wrote a long rant about James van Riemsdyk's new contract: [Puck Daddy]
- A compelling second look at the Jakub Voracek and Rick Nash debate: [Driving Play]
- Jakub Kovar stopped 25 of 26 shots in a 3-1 win, and was named 1st star: [euroflyers]
- Joonas Lehtivuori scored a goal in a losing effort: [euroflyers]
- The Islanders will have a tattoo shop in their arena next year: [Blue Line Station]
- Offering up an academic (if we can call anything DGS does academic) paper on concussions: [Down Goes Spezza]
- Sleek spent his weekend drawing secondary logos for a couple of blogs on the network, including a brilliant one for Japers' Rink: [Battle of California]
- Steven Stamkos plays in a beer league. Not news, just cool: [thestar.com]
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I have little idea with how to deal with overall Corsi. Shouldn’t “neither” be divided by 10 to get the average non-Nash-or-Voracek Bluejacket forward?
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
That’s a good question. I ignored the neither and just compared Nash to Voracek.
I’ll have to read through again.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 5, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I did too, until he noted:
To be honest, that Columbus did best when neither were on the ice according to this measure makes me uneasy.
I’m not entirely sure that was shown—or, at least, the difference was pretty marginal. When you factor in the total time they listed, and give Voracek credit for Both+Voracek alone (and the same with Nash), they do better at defensive- and neutral-zone starts, and are barely off the offensive-zone pace.
Jared probably figured this without connecting the dots for us. Maybe I’m taking the conclusion I quoted too broadly, as it comes at the end of the zone start analysis, but specifically after the offensive-zone chart.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
I wish I could help, but I ask Jared to do this stuff because he’s smarter than me =/. I would, however, like to cautiously say:
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
@chasew12 on Twitter
I think the rate stat is the one we’re supposed to pay attention to; it seems to be Corsi differential per 60.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
My eyes entirely glossed over that column. Glancing at these articles between classes does not give me enough information to comment on them, apparently.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
I think the series is quite great. I also think the author should just relent and accept that being a Flyers fan can’t be all bad.
Besides, they get to hang with us!
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
“I think the series is quite great.”
Thanks!
“I also think the author should just relent and accept that being a Flyers fan can’t be all bad.”
Ugh, this is such a great setup for a sick burn but I can’t find it.
“Besides, they get to hang with us!”
I’d rather have it both ways.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
I’d rather have it both ways.
There’s a ton of sick burns here.
You should recount to us the reasons you have such disdain for the franchise, I am sure it will be entertaining.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Heh, nice.
You should recount to us the reasons you have such disdain for the franchise, I am sure it will be entertaining.
Eh, it’s not very exciting. Wouldn’t be appropriate in any case. I’ll keep my trolling to putting jabs that are neither subtle nor clever into stuff I write.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
The Original
Still makes me laugh.
by BannedStreetBully on Sep 5, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
“I’m not entirely sure that was shown—or, at least, the difference was pretty marginal. When you factor in the total time they listed, and give Voracek credit for Both+Voracek alone (and the same with Nash), they do better at defensive- and neutral-zone starts, and are barely off the offensive-zone pace.
Jared probably figured this without connecting the dots for us. Maybe I’m taking the conclusion I quoted too broadly, as it comes at the end of the zone start analysis, but specifically after the offensive-zone chart."
Sorry this wasn’t clear. I was referring specifically to ice time within a minute of an offensive-zone faceoff, which is the most recent faceoff. In that time, the Jackets had a better rate with neither Nash nor Voracek on than with just Nash on. This makes me wonder if maybe breaking it down like that isn’t as good as I thought.
I think there are a couple possible things. One is just small sample size. It could also have to do with faceoffs. I’m not sure why this would be an issue because Nash mainly played with Vermette, their best faceoff guy. It could also be something weird like Nash having more time where he jumped on 45 seconds after a faceoff after the other team cleared their Dzone, dumped the puck and changed.
I’m working on an improved version now.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
I’m working on an improved version now.
Just convince someone from each of the 30 teams to track zone entries and it all falls into place, as then we can pull out stuff like how many shot attempts came between faceoff and clear.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Yeah, that would be great. I’d also love to see something like they have had on video games going back to at least NHL ‘94 – puck time in each zone. I think Corsi would be better overall but it would be insightful. I’d love to know Corsi shots per zone entry and a rate based on time spent in the offensive zone. Similarly, are low event guys spending more time in the neutral zone or dominating possession but being selective with shots or what?
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
So did you just volunteer to do the Pens games? I think that’s what I heard.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Heh, sorry. I’m gone for two weeks at a time for work so I probably won’t have time to catch every game, much less watch closely enough to record anything.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
By the way, the high/low event classification is interesting, but I’m nervous about scorer bias.
I’d like to see that there isn’t a big home/road split for those guys before giving them a label — it seems suspicious that Buffalo has three forwards (who scarcely played as a trio at all) and a defensive pairing (who didn’t play more than their share with those three forwards) on the high-event list, and it seems insane that New Jersey had five of the lowest-event forwards.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Have you written anything using this data? I’d like to take a look if so.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
Yeah, that chart came from this article.
Also, if you want to dig stuff up from the zone entry series in the future, this index might be helpful.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
“I have little idea with how to deal with overall Corsi. Shouldn’t "neither" be divided by 10 to get the average non-Nash-or-Voracek Bluejacket forward?”
I wonder if I’d be better off just leaving that and time off. The rate is the key, I’ve been providing the overall Corsi and time as a little more information. Time is especially informative for some of them because the sample sizes are quite small. I also give Corsi QoC for similar reasons.
Vic said we have some brutal charts, guess he’s right :(
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
No reason to :(
Your putting out some great ideas and stepping out of the box to look for conclusions on them. Alot of us appreciate it. (As you said above, the idea of what happens within a minute of a faceoff is an interesting take on things. Personally I still suck at examining stats at all, but I’m good with concepts, and I got what you were trying to say on the readthrough without the explanation here.)
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
Yeah, I think most of my problems consist of glossing the information quickly and not catching all the information you included.
The goal of the minute-after Corsi is to see how well players control on-going play independent of face-offs, right?
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
The goal of the minute-after Corsi is to see how well players control on-going play independent of face-offs, right?
Roughly. It’s to compare how they play in different situations. Think of it like the teammate stuff. An explanation is that Voracek got better zone starts, so we can examine that by looking at how they did in each situation.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
It’s definitely not obvious at first glance what the reader is supposed to take away.
I’d suggest leaving the total TOI, because when you’re dicing the data like this, there should always be a sample size check. But the cumulative Corsi probably isn’t something the reader needs, and can be left out to avoid misleading them.
I’d suggest drawing the reader’s eye to the key stat. Put the rate stat in bold font and/or change the background color of those cells.
And I like charts — bar charts could’ve made the with Nash/with Voracek comparison from some of the tables graphically compelling.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Thanks, that’s all great advice. For some reason I think to do line graphs on occasion but never bars.
All joking aside, you guys obviously do great work and have a good commenting community here. I’m a Pens fan but have enjoyed participating.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
I kind of hate bar graphs as a general rule, but for something like this where the point is “look, over and over the red bar is shorter than the blue one”, they’re pretty good.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I like circles. Big and little ones.
I also like the Ven diagram we made in a game I was playing.
(Murdered Girls) (Boys) coincidentally there was no crossover… (you probably had to be there, but we all decided it was the best diagram ever.) Then again this is the same game with quotes like “We are going to need way more little old ladies.”
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
That article kinda makes Stammer sound like another Tom Glavine; an “I could have been in the majors in either hockey or baseball” type, at least if he’d kept going with baseball. It was a nice read, though.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
I can’t help but wonder how many people they actually expect to get a tattoo there.
"We didn't do it the easy way. We took the hard way to do it. But we are part of history now."
Although Cleverbot day is over, I have a true story to relate:
I have introduced my son to Cleverbot. My son Bob’d it today. Bob replied “Alright, back to the topic at hand, then.”
The thing learns a heck of a lot faster than some of our readers, I’ll give it that.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I missed Cleverbot day.
:(
I remember using a program (not online) with a similir algorythm someone was passing around at Drexel in like 99-00. I went through the entire run of Johnny the Homicidal Maniac and taught it all the inner ID conversations presented by Psycho Doughboy, and Mr. Eff. Having a conversation with it once it was pretty well trained was…. interesting.
My son was born in Ottawa (Go Senators!) to a Father (Go Flyers!) and a Mother (Go Canucks!) who's families root for two different hockey teams (Go Habs!)(Go Bruins!) Little Maxwell is going to have such a confusing life.
And a S/T to Puckfather for spreading the word of Jesse Boulerice’s retirement and with it using the most appropriate fight video of his career. What’s not to like there?
Might be one of the only times I’ll ever say PD did anything ‘appropriate’, but in this case, I definitely approve. +1
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 5, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to admit that I wrote a really angry comment on that Puck Daddy JVR article.
Say hi to the bad guy.
Yankees/Flyers/Gunners
It’s Lambert. I’m not surprised he’s being douche-tastic.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
What’s most surprising is that he’s not all wrong, he just wrote it in his own special way.
Mourning Gagne forever.
No, you’re not wrong. You’re not wrong, Lambert. You’re just an asshole.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
by Snevik on Sep 5, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I only discount most of what he writes because while mostly spot-on, he has the inability to not sound like a douche.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
I do not even give him that credit. Then again, I cannot always tell when he is being serious or when he is joking. Suffice to say, he is not a good writer and I have never found him particularly funny.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Though if he was being serious in that article, I did agree with him up until the point where he tied the value of JVR’s contract with the future performances of the Flyers as a whole in future playoffs.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Special like this?
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
Right. He’s not wrong, he’s just… Lambert.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 5, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
http://puckthemedia.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/versus-to-air-four-nhl-pre-season-games/
Woooooo, out-of-market preseason games. Woo.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
I found out some incredible news recently that will affect all your lives drastically. Get excited.
In related news, mikefive needs to read his emails.
SB Nation Tennis -- Fuzzy yellow balls.
Broad Street Hockey.
Does this have anything to do with:
Danny Syvret Offensive Dynamo
Eurovision
The Latvian Wolf
Danny Syvret and the Latvian Wolf doing a Eurovision duet
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
One of those four, yes.
SB Nation Tennis -- Fuzzy yellow balls.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Sep 5, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And put more broadly, elements of a second one of them as well.
SB Nation Tennis -- Fuzzy yellow balls.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Sep 5, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re so predictable, Ben.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
I prefer “consistent.”
SB Nation Tennis -- Fuzzy yellow balls.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Sep 5, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I draw a comic and not know it?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Sep 5, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Eek.
CSNPhilly.com is reporting #flyer GM Paul Holmgren hospitalized after serious bike accident
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
^The above via Panotch on Twitter.
Assistant Masthead Power Person on Down Goes Spezza as ItsAFez66
I'm the Pronger. DUH, WINNING.
Chem and Gus to the restaurant.
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun
Definition: Bad-assery on skates
I want Paul Holmgren fired. I do not want Paul Holmgren in a hospital. Get well soon, Paul.
Writer at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
Is my computer screwed up, or did Dobber Hockey make their line combo tool a for-pay service?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
That they did. At least it’s only 10 bucks a year. Maybe y’all can share a single BSH log in for writing recaps & grades?
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 5, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a hard time imagining they’re going to sell many subscriptions.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I do understand their rationale that it’s been kind of a labor of love for a lot of years, but if it’s a necessary tool for some bloggers I’d expect them to shell out for it. But those are the serious types, like us, who would use it enough to justify the small cost.
Casual users, I’m not so sure they’ll have many. So their subscription base could be seriously limited.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 5, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I stay away from the “how dare they” response, because they have every right to try to maximize their revenue.
But I’m skeptical that the revenue will earn enough to compensate for the losses in ad revenue and goodwill.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
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