Peter Laviolette: 'I'm unfamiliar with the Corsi and Fenwick statistical powers'
by Travis Hughes on Jan 12, 2012 3:44 PM EST
in Philadelphia Flyers News
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We use advanced stats quite a bit around here. We don't believe it to be gospel, but then again, nothing is gospel. (Except for what Claude Giroux says. That's gospel.)
Everything from save percentage to PDO to scoring chances to goal differential to watching Giroux rip apart an opposing defenseman helps us form our collective knowledge about a game or a player or a team or a season. Our general philosophy is to include all the information we possibly can when trying to frame the full picture.
Corsi and Fenwick numbers -- plus/minus-style stats that track shot differential -- are included in that, because it's proven that they correlate strongly with puck possession, which is obviously good. And over the course of a season, the numbers correlate strongly with scoring chances and goals. And hey, winning!
Most NHL teams don't dabble in these things just yet, and they're really only analyzed consistently in certain corners of the Internet, Broad Street Hockey and several other SB Nation blogs included. But we know that several NHL teams do analyze these things too, or that they contract consultants to do so for them. Fear The Fin interviewed San Jose Sharks general manager Doug Wilson last year, who basically admitted that the Sharks study this stuff without actually saying as much. Other teams dabble, too.
What about the Flyers? Are they ahead of the curve, too? Doesn't seem like it.
Here's Peter Laviolette speaking to Sporting News reporter Jesse Spector in a media scrum this morning at the morning skate at Nassau Coliseum about this very subject. Audio via Anthony SanFilippo of the Delco Times.
SPECTOR: *inaudible* ... stats at all, that might be indicators of what plus/minus is supposed to do, but might do it a little, you know---
LAVI: Do I look at what?
SPECTOR: At other stats? At some of the more advanced stats? Are you into that at all?
LAVI: What are they?
SPECTOR: Stuff like Corsi and Fenwick that tell you about how many shots--
LAVI: Who?
SPECTOR: Corsi and Fenwick? Nevermind then.
*laughter*
SPECTOR: I got my answer.
LAVI: I'm unfamiliar with the Corsi and Fenwick statistical powers.
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He is, however, a leading expert on the statistical powers of jam.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
by DLJr on Jan 12, 2012 3:48 PM EST reply actions 9 recs
recommendation
I’ve got something of an inertia hurdle when it comes to some of the advanced stats routinely discussed in this blog – haven’t bothered to figure out what they mean/how they are calculated and thus tend to skim over those bits of the posts. I was wondering if any of you could recommend a basic primer (in the form of another blog, website, etc.) the would help me feel less inclined to gloss over those parts of the postings? Much appreciated. Dan
Well Dan you must be an idiot then!
You know I am kidding right?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I dunno man. You’re kind of a big meanie in person.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
HAHAHA I am more of a pesty chirper then mean.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Yeah. You’re about the only person who tries to bump me, which definitely puts you in the “Good Guys” pile.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
wouldn’t be the first time i’ve been called that or worse. (insert bemused smile)
by dpalmer94122 on Jan 12, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
That linked post at AIH (the FAQ one)—there are 11 parts or so.
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I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 12, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
So, validation was sought for made-up fan metrics, and none was received. No surprise there.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 3:53 PM EST reply actions
Oh No You Didn't!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
So you don’t know who Jim Corsi is, huh? And you didn’t bother reading the whole thing?
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I’m not sure what “the whole thing” is. I read the posted article, that’s about it.
And no, I don’t know Jim Corsi, though I probably like him more then the metric named after him.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
He’s a coach for the Sabres and he created the metric named after him.
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by Travis Hughes on Jan 12, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Is what why they call it Sabermetrics? Or is that something else?
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
The term sabremetrics (or sabermetrics) is derived the Society for American Baseball Research, or SABR for short.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
There you go. Thanks. I thought it might have started with baseball, but couldn’t figure out why they would name it after the slugs hockey team.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
You are welcome.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
So you missed this (I figured you skipped the links):
Fear The Fin interviewed San Jose Sharks general manager Doug Wilson last year, who basically admitted that the Sharks study this stuff without actually saying as much. Other teams dabble, too.
Jim Corsi is the goal tending coach for the Buffalo Sabres, at least for the past 10 years; meaning to say more than a fan.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Yeah, I saw that.
I’m not saying the stats themselves are amateur, nor am I saying that no one in the NHL uses them. I just think it’s awesome that my favorite coach on the Flyers since Neilson doesn’t seem to know what they even are, since I personally dislike their abstractedness. Give me Goals, Shooting Percentages, PPP/min.
When a stat needs to be shown on a graph with a bunch of jagged lines with notations all about, it stops being fun for me.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Which is completely different than your original statement. I don’t have any issues with what you said here (except a lot of what you perceive to be abstract isn’t really abstract; it’s basically counting shots and then applying the same math involved in the stuff you brought up). I had issues with your original statement.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
So if
“So, validation was sought for made-up fan metrics, and none was received. No surprise there.”
Became “So, validation was sought From Lavi for made-up fan metrics, and none was received. No surprise there.”
You wouldn’t have an issue? Or am I missing the point, as usual?
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
They aren’t abstract. They are counting stats.
The graphs are just for context and condensing large amounts of data.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
I think the names of them overcomplicate things sometimes — what the fuck is a Corsi? — but once you understand them, they really are pretty damn simple.
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Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?
by Travis Hughes on Jan 12, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
That got from Team A just shot the puck towards the net, +1 Corsi for Team A.
Not really complicated, heck it’s less complicated than counting actual shots because Corsi doesn’t care if it goes wide or gets blocked; you can stop watching after it leaves the damn stick.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Right, I think people just see the word Corsi and are like, what the fuck does that mean? And they don’t try to even think about it because it’s an abstract name. The stat isn’t abstract, but the name certainly is. “I don’t give a shit about Jim Corsi, I give a shit about what the stat means, you know?”
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Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?
by Travis Hughes on Jan 12, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you got a point. I’d probably not care about +/- if it was named Joe instead.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Mezaros’ Joe was through the roof last year, so he was named the Flyers’ best defenseman.
You’re right, I can see why a stat called Corsi or Fenwick would look silly to people. Maybe they should be renamed so as to be more accessible to fans? That might actually go a long way in having them be more widely accepted.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jan 12, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s Travis point, but yeah. I’d certainly more readily accept it, if it didn’t seen to be tied to one dude.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Eric and I were talking about this about a month ago. I’ve been thinking about coming up with new names for them, who knows if they’d actually catch on…
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Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?
by Travis Hughes on Jan 12, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Shots on Goal = Shots, Shots Taken = Corsi, Shots Through = Fenwick.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I’d leave SOG as-is. I like Shots Attempted for Corsi and Shots Taken for Fenwick.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Yeah. I could see S/Tk and S/Th on a line someday.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
I would still keep Fenwick as Shots Through or at least something other than Shots Taken, Shots Taken seems to be the same as Shots Attempted
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Shots Through is better for Fenwick, you’re right. I like Shots Attempted for Corsi since it includes blocked shots.
Or maybe SA and USA – Shot Attempts (Corsi) and Unblocked Shot Attempts (Fenwick).
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I’m good with Shots Attempted. Who do we notify? Haha.
The only thing with SA I worry about is it being confused with Shots Against. But none the less, notify the NHL, or Lukko’s assistant, and lets get this moving.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
You expect hockey fans to approve of a stat called USA?? I believe this is very short-sighted of you, Michael.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Well, like Ozone%. Why make it a percent? Why not keep it with what folks know, +/-. Works the same way, but with hard numbers, instead of derivatives.
Corsi and Fenwick, seem to paint largely the same picture, but with one factor removed or included. Why not just drop the one all together?
Why does Corsi Rel seem to be backwards. If a team is +8 rel, wouldnt that mean that they’re relatively better with him off the ice?
It’s the million little things that make me just disregard them all.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
If you can handle Shooting %, which you listed above, you can handle Ozone %, come on. On the other hand, I can see a person getting frustrated with the concept of “relative to”.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I can handle it well enough, yeah. I just don’t get the need to have it as a percentage, instead of as +/-. You’d then have a hard number. Coburn’s 8 better then average. Awesome.
Shooting percentage is easier to swallow since there already is a seperate, very often measured stat for shots themselves, which means I can track his shots per game, and track his percentage per season. A percentage for Ozone doesn’t feel like a real number when tracked per game, at least, to me.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
The reason it isn’t a solid number is because CorsiRel includes ice time. But if you just look at the Corsi charts Travis used to put in the game recaps, they display as a number, not a percent.
If Matt Read is on the ice for 10 Corsi for and 8 Corsi against and Zac Rinaldo is on for 4 Corsi for and 2 against, they’d both be +2. But that doesn’t show how much better Zac was at controlling play, since he got 66.7% of all Corsi events to Read’s 55.5%.
In other words, making it a percent more accurately reflects the sample size/contribution. Making it per 60 accounts for the ice time. And making it relative accounts for good players on bad teams, bad players on good teams, etc.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
I probably said this about a year ago, and I’ve seen it done occassionally, but every raw number e.g. Corsi Rel of 8.0, needs to be accompanied by a rank comparing that value to the rest of the team.
Tracking the Flyers scoring chances at Broad Street Hockey
Problem is Corsi doesn’t mean much without context. Unless of course people use my Balanced Corsi formula and then rank players ;-)
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, but saying a player has Corsi ranked 9th on the team, but is 12th at OSZ% against the 4th highest QualComp might help explain the players contribution.
Tracking the Flyers scoring chances at Broad Street Hockey
Yep fair enough. We pretty much do that anyway right? Just that we do it manually
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
I wish BtN would report them all as relative to team average.
E.g. on a team that had a Corsi of 52%, started in the offensive zone 52% of the time, and faced opponents with an average Corsi Rel of 0.4, a player whose numbers were 55% / 48% / 0.7 would be reported as having a Corsi-vs-team of +3%, a OZ-vs-team of -4%, and a CRQoC-vs-team of +0.3.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Annnd my brain just exploded.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
Embrace the Jagr.*
by JerseyDriver on Jan 12, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, though I find myself only doing it in extreme situations, i.e. a 0.200 CRQoC being highest on the team.
I don’t really see the point in ranking CorsiRel – you’re already accounting for his teammates – but the other two I agree, and need to improve upon it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
OZone% also keeps it as a rate stat, rather than BSB’s suggestion to make it a counting stat. Take two defensemen, both a -5 OZone (they start in the defensive zone 5 more times than the offensive zone).
There’s a big difference between my defensive specialist third-pair defenseman who only sees the ice 7 shifts a game and has a 14% OZone (6 D/1 O)and my puck-carrying defenseman who is on the ice for 15 shifts and has a 33% OZone (10 D/ 5 O). Their raw numbers are the same, but their use is different.
Bob.
Corsi and Fenwick, seem to paint largely the same picture, but with one factor removed or included. Why not just drop the one all together?
I think the only reason both are still used is Fenwick was shown to have the greatest correlation with team success (points earned), but people had already done work with Corsi and how it related to individual play? Or Corsi was shown as a more reliable indicator of individual play, I don’t really remember. Regardless, you don’t knew to know anything except what trends in each mean, so you don’t really need to bother with both of them.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Fenwick is the better measure in the long run, but here “long run” means at least 2000ish minutes of play.
So if you’re looking at team data after a fairly large fraction of the season, Fenwick is a little better. If you’re looking at team data early in the season or if you’re looking at individual data, Corsi is better measure.
Most people only use one or the other, but different people have different preferences. Personally, I almost always refer to Corsi, since I do a lot more analysis of individuals than teams.
And for those wondering why Corsi is sometimes better and Fenwick is sometimes better:
Any shot attempt, whether blocked or not, is indicative of puck possession in the offensive zone. So Corsi is a measure of puck possession in the offensive zone, which tracks very closely with scoring chances and goals. However, only the shots that get through without being blocked can actually be scoring chances or goals, so Fenwick is a more direct measure of offensive threats. But since removing blocked shots decreases the sample size, it takes a longer time for random variance to even out, so while Fenwick is the more direct measure in the long run, in the short run the greater sample size of Corsi can be more important.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Jan 12, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well there’s that, and also that there’s been shown to be a small level of skill in blocking shots, so it’s better not to include them when using it as a possession proxy.
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*Statement has not been verified nor regressed
by George E. Ays on Jan 12, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
Is that true? The Flyers have consistently been an above-average possession team in recent years (which would mean fewer shot-blocking opportunities) but have consistently been near the top of the league in shot blocks (even if you limit it to just road stats to remove scorer bias).
But maybe they’re an outlier; I haven’t looked at it.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
CONCLUSION
Teams appear to have the ability to block shots, beyond what we’d expect from chance alone. While many of us hockey stat nerds have used Corsi (i.e., total shot attempts including blocks), a couple bloggers like Matt Fenwick and Gabe Desjardins often stated an intuitive preference for excluding blocked shots. Though I disagreed in the past, at this point I’m inclined to think that if we are using shot attempts as a proxy for meaningful territorial advantage, we should exclude blocked shots.
http://vhockey.blogspot.com/2010/05/blocked-shots-luck-or-skill.html
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
"Oh, that sensible and sober* Rangers fan guy who is cool, actually" - Dominik, Lighthouse Hockey
*Statement has not been verified nor regressed
by George E. Ays on Jan 12, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, haha, I misread what you were saying — I was interpreting “a small level of skill” to mean “there’s not much skill in it” or “it’s almost random”.
Yeah, I agree that teams have a reproducible ability to block shots, and that’s why Fenwick is a more direct measure of how many threats they face. But the fact remains that over sub-2000ish-minute sample sizes, Corsi is a better predictor of future outcomes, and I’m more interested in finding the thing that’s the best predictor than the thing that makes the most first-principles sense.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Funny thing about Ozone% is that people are starting to move away from that because it’s slightly misleading.
I think it was Zona who used it first – or at least he was the first person I saw use it – but doing OZ/60 and DZ/60 more accurately shows what a coach thinks of a player. The per 60 metric accounts for guys like Giroux, guys who are put on the ice a lot, in all situations, but who’s OZ% would be roughly 50%. The per 60 would show how often he is put in situations rather than looking equal to a guy who is used in the neutral zone almost exclusively.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
“It’s slightly misleading” is slightly misleading.
OZ% is still fine to use for context when adjusting Corsi — what fraction of the time a guy was put in advantageous positions is important there.
But when you want to infer the coach’s opinion of a player, the number of starts per game is meaningful — when a goon gets 0.25 DZ starts and 1 OZ start per game, you might conclude that the team is afraid to put him in the defensive zone, whereas when a Sedin gets 1.5 DZ starts and 4 OZ starts, it’s more that they try to get him in the offensive zone whenever they can.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Neilson was a big advanced stat guy.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
"Oh, that sensible and sober* Rangers fan guy who is cool, actually" - Dominik, Lighthouse Hockey
*Statement has not been verified nor regressed
by George E. Ays on Jan 12, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
That was my favorite part :)
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
So how about a comprehensive advanced stat called the Neilson Rating.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Corsi and Fenwick
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/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 4:07 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
And Vigoda
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Shit how do you get a picture to come up?
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=abe+vigoda&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=807&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=ROxMRfQ1qf9UYM:&imgrefurl=http://www.unclebarrys.com/ficus-tree/&docid=beRf2lEN7SePFM&imgurl=http://www.unclebarrys.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/abe_vigoda_face11.jpg&w=250&h=286&ei=UEwPT8LNPInw0gG_o_SaAw&zoom=1
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Thanks for the assist!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I usually hate small dogs, but that thing is awesome.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
By love of Corgis is directly related to my love for Cowboy Bebop.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
by DLJr on Jan 12, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So you hate them then?
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Favorite scene is when he talks to the cow.
by PyropenguinX on Jan 12, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
So…you love Cowboy Bebop also? Hmmmm. This is a whole new side to you I’m seeing, Don.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Lupin III and Cowboy Bebop are the only two manga/anime shows I ever liked/watched.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Joffrey Lupul the Third and Cowboy Hard Bop.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Could never get into any of it. Husband is into graphic novels a lot. My BFF’s husband loves anime.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
If it weren’t for Adult Swim in college I would have never known they existed.
Totally different genre, but Tin Tin is one of my favorite shows of all time. Loved that show growing up.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
My son did not want to see recent “Tin Tin” movie, said it looked “lame”. Kids these days.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
But how can you not like a snow with a dog that enjoy scotch, honestly.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I guess 5 year olds judge their animation differently than we do, apparently.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Also, my son hates snow as much as I do.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
That does not bode well for Snowy.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Garth Snow probably wishes he were someone else right now.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Toonami during grade school back in the 90s…
Gundam Wing and Outlaw Star are still my favorites.
by PyropenguinX on Jan 12, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
“By [the] love of Corgis” is an interjection phrase, along the lines of “By Lucifer’s Beard!” or “For Crying Out Loud!”
“By the love of Corgis, I don’t believe it!”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
By the love of Corgis, wtf is up with our cap situation?!
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
"Who the heck knows?"
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Matt Walker is a beast. Very durable hips on that guy.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Wide birthing hips
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
thank you again for the video link. i don’t know how many times i’ve watched it. can’t think of a way to make it better. it’s so funny.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
I will be using this at least once every time I see you.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
New Site Tagline?
Broad Street Hockey: By the Love of Corgis, The Universh is like so Humangous Big
by PyropenguinX on Jan 12, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I like “Sweet Lebanon Bologna!” as an exclamation.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I like sweet lebanon bologna as a snack. Esp fried like my Grandma used to make it, god rest her Dutchy soul.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
It is an excellent snack. I have not had it fried, however. This may warrant further investigation.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
What about Cowboy Hard Bop? Cowboy Post-Bop? Cowboy Jazz Fusion?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
The only true sequel was Samurai Champloo.
And Cowboy Adult Contemporary.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I still need to watch that, I just picked it up on blu a few weeks ago for a nice price.
This station is non-operational
IT'S TEBOW TIME!
On the twitterverse
…why?
It’s a cartoon. The Fidelity can only go so far.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Good man.
Though I might be partial to those wrinkley dogs too.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. I heard that they’ve been so inbred that the dogs live their lives with constant headaches, which makes me want to punch greedy breeders.
by BannedStreetBully on Jan 12, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Mom wanted a “mini shepherd” so we got a Cardigan. Funniest things in the world with their stubby legs.
by PyropenguinX on Jan 12, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Enough with the shenanigans. This comes as no surprise to me and I have even said as much on numerous occasions. Not saying there shouldn’t be someone in the organization stuffed in a corner looking for his red stapler who’s job is to look at these things, but still not surprised.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
"Hello, Flyers Advanced Stats Speaking"
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
“I’m sorry, you must be looking for something else. I’ll transfer you to the Bryzgalov Philosophy Department”
Bryz has low self esteem
Awaiting the return of the G-stache
Bryz: “Corsi and Fenwick?” “Are they like hot blonde Siberian Husky??”
"Who's more crazy, me? Or defensemen? Who's more weird?"----- Ilya Bryzgalov
"Grow some balls and just do it" ---- Claude Giroux
Semper Fi...
So what. How dumb would he sound if he said the reason he did something was “because Fenwick and Corsi said it would work!”
IDK. I think he’d sound pretty smart.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
by doubleh on Jan 12, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well if the Flyers got burned it would be embarassing, and if they did something good it would be awesome.
by SkookFlyerfan on Jan 12, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty dumb, especially since that would be a pretty good sign he doesn’t know how Fenwick and Corsi work.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
by Snevik on Jan 12, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But we all know he uses scoring chances, eh.
Tracking the Flyers scoring chances at Broad Street Hockey
BSH revenue generator:
Corsi Jam
Fenwick Jam
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Now there’s an arbitrary stat for you haters.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
by Snevik on Jan 12, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Im not so sure about this
I have a feeling NHL teams are looking at more than we think they are (and a few media members have said the same).
Lavi probably doesn’t know what Corsi and Fenwick are. But I bet if you had access to the Flyers’ offices, you’d find things like shot attempt counts, scoring chance counts etc, not to mention all that game tape organized by event type etc.
Im sure some team offices look at this kind of stuff more than others. At the same time, I have a feeling they all look at something (though using Corsi and Fenwick, or at least actually calling it that, is probably uncommon).
by samspade on Jan 12, 2012 4:38 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed, I’m willing to bet they track something very similar. Frankly if they track possession, they are essentially tracking the same thing since Corsi and Fenwick are proxies for zone possession which is no longer tracked by the NHL for whatever reason.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
That’s why stuff like this doesn’t really get me upset, nor does it surprise me. They have staff tracking a lot more stuff, we depend on the NHL tracking it for us. What we are trying to represent with proxies, they may actually track. They also might look at the same things, but just don’t call it by any names.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Yeah, this is the same stuff we noticed with RAJ and the Phils. He and Cholly say, “We don’t do none of those newfangled stats” but then other things Proefrock and others in the FO say seem to negate that stance a bit.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
Hebhebheb Raul’s swingin’abat REEALgoooouid.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
This article talks about that a bit. There’s something to it, for sure. Of course, that was before the Howard contract, which defied any sort of saber-oriented thinking completely, so who knows.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Jan 12, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, I’m willing to bet they track something very similar.
Given what we suspect about their cap management, why should we make this assumption?
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Because they’re a professional hockey club that’s been playing pretty good hockey for a lot of years? Because their coach was a Stanley Cup winning coach in Carolina? Because their former coach was a Calder Cup winning coach with the Phantoms?
Cap management is a very internal thing – particularly because GM turnover is low. Coaches, however, are always trying to gain an edge and even if Ken Hitchcock didn’t track shots attempted or possession, doesn’t mean John Stevens didn’t think about tracking it in his time with the Phantoms, doesn’t mean Peter Laviolette didn’t used to track them in Carolina. In over 40 years of watching tape, I’m pretty sure the Flyers have tried to meddle with a variety of stats.
I also reckon if you gave the Flyers 40 years to manage the cap they’d eventually get the hang of it.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Why do you assume the cap management of the front office (which is largely influenced by the whims of Snider) has anything to do with what Lavi has his coaching and video staff track? This is a horrible assumption IMO.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
The use and application of advanced numbers is extremely uneven in the NHL. A few teams are elbow deep, a few dabble, and the same amount on the other side aren’t involved with them at all.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
So basically, Lavi is our Philip Seymour Hoffman, Lilja is our Pena, and Gus is our Hatteberg.
/imperfect Moneyball metaphor’d
I heart our rookies.
"Who's more crazy? Who's more...weird?"
Yeah, LL, and as a fellow TGPer, I’m NOT impressed with the fact that Lavi seems ignorant of these. If he was 60 years old or more, like Charlie Manuel, I’d give him a pass. He should at least be able to tell you why he doesn’t use them.
This fits in with everything else we have been speculating on about Flyers management. And it also might be another (not so positive) complementary point between Homer and Amaro.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Fenwick and Corsi are just fancy names for some basic stats. That’s what we tell everyone. I’m not worried at all as I think Lavy does track these sort of things but just doesn’t know the name. Perhaps if the reporter had elaborated on how it works we would’ve seen some recognition from Lavy.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the Phils clearly do NOT track advanced stats and say as much in public events, even though many advanced stats in that sport have gone “mainstream”, which is not true in the NHL yet. So I don’t necessarily think this is true.
Note that the lack of advanced tracking of stats has led to what TGPers believe is an slightly-higher-than-necessary payroll.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Yep but baseball advanced stats are a little more advanced than hockey ones as far as I know.
As Don said above: Corsi is Shots Taken, Fenwick is Shots Through. I reckon a hockey club can keep track of those things without necessarily even viewing them as particularly advanced.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
So very right you are.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Point taken. Hockey advanced stats are “less advanced” than other sports (see below).
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
I like advance metrics
I think fenwick and corsi stats shouldn’t fall by the wayside. They are useful source of information. They are a hell of a lot more useful than the +/- stat. I like how it can tell how a player pushes the play forward, if they play well againist certain competition, there zone starts. I like the whole shabang. But I don’t think it should be the end all to be all. I think you should trust your eyes also.
-bob
by Rrainone on Jan 12, 2012 6:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Overall, there are serious more serious advanced stats coming that use video. Business Week a few months ago had a piece describing how some baseball teams are in hush-hush mode creating some of these. They will revolutionize baseball defense stats, and could have similar impacts in hockey.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
They’ve been talking about that for years.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
True, but full digital video is starting to make this more and more possible.
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Also true.
And in case it wasn’t obvious, I anxiously await the results of those video analyses.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
If only Danny Syvret was still on the team. He’d probably tell Lavy all about Corsi/Fenwick from his time reading this blog and enjoying stats.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 6:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
hahaha!
Another reason to bring Danny back!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Haha! Fully agree here (whether or not Corsi/Fenwick was worthwhile!)
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Sean Couturier now has 6 points in his last 9 games. That’s our 19 year old fourth line defensive stud elite PKer guys.
I hope no-one mentions him in any trade rumors whatsoever. Actually I doubt the Flyers would trade him for anything.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 9:43 PM EST reply actions
i’m with you on the whole trade thing. We’ve had half the team for half a season. Some deep breathing please.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong thread haha.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 12, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
yeah just trying to support you
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
we all get lost in the woods
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 12, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
How the hell did this guy win a Stanley Cup anyhow? Oh right, he already answered that question.
"All the experts come out, all the pundits come out with their opinions...the truth of the matter is if they knew anything about the game, they'd be in it" - George McPhee, General Manager, Washington Capitals.
by Nico97 on Jan 12, 2012 11:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
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