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Three Philadelphia Flyers goalies? Ah, not so fast

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We wrote a story yesterday based off a rumor from Elliotte Friedman of CBC, who essentially said that the Flyers were interested in potentially adding a third goaltender should Sergei Bobrovsky or Ilya Bryzgalov fail to "grab a stranglehold" on the position. Obviously, this ticked a fair amount of us off, considering it's completely silly.

As it turns out, things weren't quite so straight-forward. Friedman himself sent us a note trying to clarify what he meant in the story -- which he didn't have to do at all. Cool of him to make sure we got the story right. See what he had to say after the jump.

Star-divide

First, a refresher on what was written by Friedman yesterday in his weekly 30 Thoughts column:

It's interesting to hear other teams talk about the Flyers. If there's one thing they really respect, it's Philly's willingness to make bold decisions. That's why there's a suspicion that if Ilya Bryzgalov or Sergei Bobrovsky doesn't grab a stranglehold on the net, Philadelphia may look at someone else (on a short-term contract) to calm the position.

And here's Friedman's clarification to us via email yesterday:

Maybe my explanation was muddled, but I have no direct information that Philly is looking for another goalie. But what has happened, though, is that other organizations believe the Flyers will do anything to win. That's said with a lot of respect, because some GMs would kill for an owner like Ed Snider -- who will spend what it takes in support of that goal.

When the Flyers made last summer's Richards/Carter trades, much of the league was blown away. There are very few teams that would have the willingness to trade two talented young players like that -- especially when they'd been promoted as cornerstones of the franchise. "The Flyers have brass balls," one GM told me, and it was a compliment.

So, it's more conjecture than anything. But it shows you how the Flyers are viewed. You couldn't name another team that would want to go anywhere near such an idea. But others think Philly might -- if they thought it gave them the best chance to win.

That's what I was trying to convey.

So, there you have it. Maybe we read it wrong, maybe his explanation could have been better. Doesn't really matter, one way or the other.

It does matter that the correct story gets out, and this one is that the Flyers aren't completely crazy. They're not necessarily looking for a third goalie, thank God. But other teams respect the balls they have, and that they would do something that crazy if they thought it would help.

Does this make you feel better? Or does it make you feel worse?

Personally, I'm not sure how it makes me feel. I absolutely love that Ed Snider and the Flyers are always willing to do whatever they feel necessary to win a Stanley Cup.

Like Friedman said there, other GMs and other organizations would kill for an owner like Mr. Snider. He's responsible for so much good in this city and so much good in the Flyers organization. Hell, so much good in the sport of hockey, for that matter. And there's no questioning that he wants that Cup again more than any other owner in the game.

On the flip side, is what they think will give the team the best chance to win always what's actually best? It's the same conundrum that gets us into reactionary nine-year, $51 million contracts, for example. The difference between spending money and spending it smartly, right?

It can be both a blessing and a curse, the meddling of a ridiculously wealthy, wants-to-win-it-more-than-anything owner. I'm still undecided on whether it's more a blessing or more a curse, what with the 37 years since a Cup thing and all.

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Love Snider’s passion, hate his recklessness.

by hebrew hammer on Jan 18, 2012 9:28 AM EST reply actions  

Trade for Cam Ward we can have a very expensive carousel.

Nodl 12G 127GP, Talbot 10G 44GP

by chrislanci on Jan 18, 2012 9:29 AM EST reply actions  

We’re like a clearly drunk driver. You have to expect anything and everything.

Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."

by Snevik on Jan 18, 2012 9:45 AM EST reply actions  

He isn't getting any younger

Ed Snyder (and the rest of the leadership of the team) aren’t getting any younger. Not sound macabre, but the clock is ticking for these guys… and they ALL want one more cup. I think that is why they make bold (arguably reckless) moves.

by Bummer161 on Jan 18, 2012 9:48 AM EST reply actions  

The future of this organization will surely be done with an eye towards Snider’s ideals, so I am not worried about that.

And considering they just blew the team up, I can’t say they are making moves for just one more cup, but for the good of the team. It’s hard to tell me they will make it work with what they have when they just got rid of what they have.

What it boils down to is – Hockey GMs don’t know as much as we do. That’s how we got a 9 year goalie in net who they shouldn’t have got. I think the Flyers have a smarter Front Office than other teams (on the radio yesterday, they remarked on how the Wild had no first round picks in their lineup from 2004 to today), but there’s some big issues with them that will keep us frustrated. But I think it’s driven from a genuine desire to put the best team they can on the ice, not to ruin the future for a cup today.

It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.

by Dr. Steve on Jan 18, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

What it boils down to is – Hockey GMs don’t know as much as we do.

They’re not perfect and there have been some things that have gone wrong, but this is a pretty bold statement. I’m not sure I agree.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

"When the Flyers win a playoff series, as they did this past year, is when you yell at me for being wrong? Because I said the Flyers won’t win a round'?
Geoff Detweiler.

by Mattx on Jan 18, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I stopped taking the post seriously at that point. Opinions on players and what a team needs can seem obvious to us, but the people who do this for a living and get paid to do it know more than we’d ever hope to. If the job duties were so clear, we’d have a GM job or GM’s would be paid minimum wage.

They still have to be the guys that deal with contract/cap space logistics, assess where to spend their money, and convince other teams that a trade that would benefit us is mutually beneficial, and also within each party’s cap limits.

Jagr shoots, Jagr scores!!!!!!

by Vinny A on Jan 18, 2012 1:43 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I think they know a lot more than we do, but I don’t think they know everything we know, and I think some of what we know that they don’t is more important than they realize.

Which doesn’t mean that I could do a better job by myself, but with a comparable budget for staff…

by Eric T. on Jan 18, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I stopped taking the post seriously at that point.

Me too, even though I really tried.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

They signed Lilja. To two years. Jody Shelley to three. I don’t know what knowledge that we are missing led them to those decisions.

If you are saying they have more resources at their disposal and experience negotiating to do their job better, sure. I, at my computer, am not equipped to run the Flyers.

(I also think that this site could do a great job running the team, collectively.)

It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.

by Dr. Steve on Jan 18, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

But Jody Shelley is a new man, playing on the kids line.

Hyka'n it up a notch.

by Brock on Jan 18, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

We should start saving up for the ’yotes and then Moneyball ’em.

by hebrew hammer on Jan 18, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the Flyers make some decisions based on moves they haven’t made yet.

They signed Lilja thinking he would be in and out of the 6th spot, alternating with Gustafsson. Remember that the pairings were projected to be the ones listed below, and also remember that Lilja was actually playing okay before he got hurt.

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Gustafsson
Lilja

How “the moves they haven’t made yet” fits into this: The plan was to trade Walker after “showing him off” in the pre-season. No one was interested. Pronger got hurt and that changed things for a little while before they realized that Bourdon could be serviceable at the professional level. Walker became expendable yet again; still, no one wanted him. No one wants him now, either; teams have had two opportunities to claim him at half of his cap hit and never did so. Remember that the Flyers took a similar tack before trading Gagne – painting themselves into a corner by trading for Meszaros’ $4 million contract, then signing Zherdev and Shelley, thereby forcing themselves to trade Gagne and take on a bad contract in return.

Shelley was signed to replace Arron Asham’s “locker room presence,” which was dumb because Arron Asham could do things other than fight. He played on a line with Claude Giroux, for God’s sake. Why they did not want to re-sign him is beyond me, though he may have had his own reasons for not wanting to stay here.

This is all to say that I understand the rationale for signing Lilja; for Shelley, not so much. My biggest problem with signing Lilja is that they really should have tried to get rid of Walker this summer first. Lilja still would have been there for them.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 18, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not sure I agree with you not being sure you agree.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jan 18, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm. So either you agree or you think my opinion should be stronger.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. I agree.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jan 18, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

FTFY

Hockey GMs don’t know as much as much more than we do, but much less than they think they do.

Actually, I’m serious that with that change, the rest of your post follows just fine.

GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal

by Bud in TN on Jan 18, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Makes me feel a bit dirty, but I’ll quote W here.

“Stay the course.”

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jan 18, 2012 9:53 AM EST reply actions  

nah. the better comparison Al Davis.

Jerry Jones’s Cowboys were only ever good due to one head coach (Jimmy Johnson) and one badly bumbled trade (Herschel Walker for the Cowboys core Superbowl dynasty foundation).

Snider has overseen far more success as an owner than Jones. Snider and Davis’s teams were both feared and respected in the prime of their ownership. The Flyers under Snider have had far more longterm success than Davis, but both teams have been hurt by the brashness of their owners in the twilight of their ownership.

Snider for the most part has been fine I think, with the exception of Bryz, which I think was clearly his decision.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

the black power ranger sure has let himself go

by mincxubusc66 on Jan 18, 2012 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

conjecture in journalism is stupid

by fitzy first on Jan 18, 2012 10:42 AM EST reply actions  

Broad Street Hockey: covering the Philadelphia Flyers, who are known around the league as having brass balls.

I heart our rookies.

"Who's more crazy? Who's more...weird?"

by LeepinLizardz on Jan 18, 2012 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

Broad Street Hockey: We like our balls held for pleasure?

Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.

- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)

by iJewJitsu on Jan 18, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I love the do whatever it costs ownership...

…yet at the same time it can drive me up a wall at periods. Hockey is so unpredictable because at one moment you are on top your game and the very next you can be on the shelf for the entire season with a freak injury. Also, a month and a half of excellence can skyrocket you to the top of the world, and earn you a giant payday.

For those reasons above, I love Snider, but I also fear that his quick trigger finger may one day be the reason why we can’t get over the hump for one reason or another.

by Vince1129 on Jan 18, 2012 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

His original article would have needed no clarification if it included the brass balls quote.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 11:36 AM EST reply actions  

I prefer it over the opposite.

I am for the gung-hoe go for it all attitude. I mean honestly if any owner/gm came out and said we aren’t going to spend much this year because our profits weren’t at were we would like them to be. Therefore we will put the best team possible with what we have. I as a fan would be turned off. I put my dedication in by watching the games, buying tickets and merchandise and I would want that to be rewarded by an ownership that wants a championship as much as me and losing is not acceptable at any cost.

-bob

by Rrainone on Jan 18, 2012 11:56 AM EST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

/rec’d for use of gung-hoe.

/shrug

Ecstatic to be joing the Florida Panthers Organization!! Awesome day... Truly a dream come true.

- @ScottieUpshall (July 1, 2011 2:15pm EST)

by iJewJitsu on Jan 18, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

this is why i was skeptical and cynical of the phillies for many years until they started spending like the big market team they are.

its also why im pro-Amaro, people can bitch all they want, but he’s aggressive and has balls, and we have halladay, lee, and pence because of it

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

At the expense of Hamels, mayhaps.

There’s being aggressive and then there’s cutting off your nose to spite your face. There’s always a downside to this “white whale” mentality.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

if it’s at the expense of hamels, then i have a bigger problem with the owners than Amaro. If money is an issue or luxury tax is a problem with how much they have been raking in, and Hamels isnt here after next season, then my cynicism of the franchise returns full force.

the flyers would never allow a guy like hamels to just walk away due to money. they would find a way. thats why i didnt freak out when carter or richards was traded. i was willing to be patient to see the results because i trust the franchise implicitly.

the bryz contract was one of the few moves in which i completely disagreed with. and even that was an attempt at improving the team. misguided yes, but the intent to win was there.

there is no way i could excuse the phillies ownership for not doing what’s necessary to keep hamels. none.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

They aren’t the Yankees. There’s still a budget, even without a salary cap. We have no way of knowing how much money the Phillies “have been raking in” these last few years, but last year, they didn’t really increase profits because they’ve been selling out every year while increasing payroll every year—and they lost out on a lot of potential revenues with an early playoff exit. They haven’t really increased ticket prices all that much, either, and their food/bev is actually some of the more affordable in the league.

While I appreciate the intent and desire to win, there are limits. The Bryz move was bad, given the volatility of the position, similar to the Papelbon move for the Phils. That money would be better spent elsewhere. On Hamels for one.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, remember the Yanks and Rox have add’l revenue streams from their television stations; the Phillies don’t have that.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

the phillies have had a self imposed budget that’s risen regularly. i believed it until they decided what the hell let’s just sign cliff lee for 24 million a year. they have the money, you cant convince me otherwise.

there is no actual cap in baseball. if the owners of that team want to make it happen. they can and they should

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

without getting into a whole argument, here's my point

forget the phillies’ “budget”, the yankees or red sox…

if Snider owned the Phillies, it wouldnt even be a question about whether or not Hamels is here. Hamels would be here.

and that’s why I love Snider and that’s why i support the Flyers the most and they are my favorite team above all others.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Snider would still have a budget without quotes. Choices would still have to be made.

Remember there are other teams in baseball. Just because there’s no cap doesn’t mean there aren’t parameters in place that punish teams that outspend (or spend too little as it were) everyone else. Ultimately, these GMs are part of an old boy’s network that tries to keep everyone in line (hence issues with collusion as recently as the 90s). Snider, like they are trying to do with Mark Cuban now, would never be allowed to own a baseball team because of his propensity to do “whatever it takes at any cost”.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

George moreso, but yeah, they don’t want any more Yankees.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

and you’re right decisions would be made, but they would be made with hamels staying.

listen if the phillies ownership doesnt value a 28 year old ace with the stuff hamels has and the fact that he’s their homegrown talent who led the way to a WS championship, and they arent willing to do whatever it takes to keep him, i have a serious problem with supporting that ownership.

if that makes me a bad fan, fine, but i just couldnt be incredibly incredibly bitter about it and question how much they really want to win.

ive never. ever. questioned the Flyers organization’s commitment to winning. beating a dead horse i know, but again thats why they’re #1 in my book.

im willing to hold out hope and faith in this new mentality that ownership of the phillies has developed, and that that mentality will result in a deal for hamels, they’ve certainly earned that much, i just hope my faith is right.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, in accordance with that argument, why wouldn’t the Flyers do everything they could to hold on to Richards or Carter then? Homegrown talent, took us (almost) to a SC.

I don’t question the Flyers commitment to winning; I just question the route they take to get there.

I also don’t question the Phillies newfound commitment to winning in this last decade: the issue is that FA changes everything. If Hamels reaches the market, he’s gone.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

not the right comparison

richards and carter never led the flyers to a championship. they were also traded when the flyers believed they wouldnt lead the team to a Cup.

hamels was far more important in the phillies run than richards or carter. and he succeeded in his biggest moments. carter was absent – grant it due to injury but the flyers got it done without him regardless and richards did not play well in the SCF.

before the flyers decided to change it up, when they believed richards and carter were the answer, they took care to make sure neither would hit free agency.

so the only way the cole hamels situation compares is if the phillies decided 1) he wasnt capable of helping a team win a championship (which he’s already proven so that’s out the door) and 2) if richards and carter were both the main 2 reasons why the flyers won a cup – which they werent and the flyers didnt

the best comparison you can make is asking hypothetically if Giroux leads the Flyers to the Cup and is named MVP, would the flyers in any case let Giroux hit free agency?

the answer is no.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

further i can assure you if richards led the team to a Cup in 2010, he would still be in a flyers uniform.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Knee-jerk reactions aren’t good regardless. Leading a team to a cup, which is a lot of times a part of good timing, is not the reason to retain a player. They gave Leighton a deal based on how he played in the playoffs that season. Was that a smart decision?

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

now you’re comparing hamels and leighton?

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

in no way would signing hamels be a knee-jerk reaction.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it wouldn’t. But I’m making an analogy here. Signing a player simply because of postseason production isn’t oftentimes prudent.

Let’s end this convo. We aren’t going to agree or change each other’s minds. It’s also more appropriate for TGP.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I’m comparing good playoff runs. They aren’t the same player and signing Hamels is important, but not at any/all costs.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

all leighton had was a good playoff run.

hamels has had a far better collective career than leighton

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

He was brought up mid-way though 2006. They won the WS in 2008. At the time we had a pretty good idea Hamels would continue to be awesome, but no surefire way of knowing. Could have peaked there.

I agree that Hamels is a better player and worth resigning, but there’s a monetary limit. He also has some injury history. It’s a gamble.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

i think using the term gamble with hamels is a big stretch

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

but you're right let's just end it, good debate.

the problem is we cant even find common ground to debate since you feel richards and carter = hamels and i dont.

so call it a solid discussion and we’ll end it.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said I felt they equaled, but there are similarities when you bring up homegrown talent and groom them for your organization.

Good debate. Let’s go eat.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

we could have avoided this...

if you told me the phillies will sign hamels and everything will be alright. THATS ALL I WANT MAN.

haha.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish I could tell you that, but I can’t. LOL.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

A true Hamels comparison is JVR……

if the Flyers won the cup last season JVR won the Conn Symth and followed it up two years later with a 40 goal season

If that happened and the Flyers didn’t sign JVR to top dollar and let him walk there would be hell to pay.

Nodl 12G 127GP, Talbot 10G 44GP

by chrislanci on Jan 18, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Signing any player to a large contract is a gamble.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

correct, but that doesnt mean you say to hamels we can only give you 3 years and wave goodbye.

the whole long term contract for any player is a separate debate that we dont need to touch.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

They won’t do that. They will offer him fair value, but someone might overpay. That’s the issue with free agency.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

which is why they gotta take Michael Bluth’s advice and lock that down

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s always money in the banana stand.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

careful one more AD quote and ill have to watch 5 episodes at least on dvd tonite.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

And I’ll get fined for copyright violations…

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha!

Proud provider of the PECO Power Play.

by coheedandtbs on Jan 18, 2012 7:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think what you’re potentially forgetting is Richards and Carter had NMC’s kicking in this season. It was now or never for trading them. If the Flyers didn’t trade them we’d be stuck with them forever.

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 18, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

There are worse things than being stuck with Richards and Carter.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 18, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

How the eff did the Flyers know Richards or Carter would not lead them to a cup? Also, why the long term contracts then if they never thought it possible?

Hamels was very good in 2008, but so was the offense. The team all in all was not better than this team in 2011, but it got the right matchups and was firing on all cylinders. Flyers in 2010 got all the right matchups, too, until the SCF. There’s a lot of luck in winning it all.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

How the eff did the Flyers know Richards or Carter would not lead them to a cup?

that was the decision the flyers came to, if it was the other way, they’d still be here.

if the phillies let hamels walk it cant be because they think he isnt capable, they know he is capable because he’s done it. you dont let players that important in a championship run walk away.

even if you want to make the comparison, then the flyers didnt even let richards or carter walk away either like the phillies might do with hamels.

Also, why the long term contracts then if they never thought it possible?

Like i said there was a time when they thought it was possible. thus why they intially made sure they had them longterm. lavy got here. shit went down. the flyers changed their minds.

the flyers felt they had to choose lavy or richards and carter.

if they felt richards and carter were the guys. lavy would have been gone instead.

hamels has proved he can be a huge piece on a championship team, has not given the phillies management reason to think otherwise. even richards and carter were traded they didnt just go for free.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

that was the decision the flyers came to, if it was the other way, they’d still be here.

Or, they needed the cap space to sign a goaltender. If there was no salary cap, they’d probably both still be here. They chose to sign a goaltender.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

it wasnt just about Bryz.

if the flyers considered them that important, as important as Hamels and a 28 year old ace who won a WS is to a baseball team, then they’d still be here.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think so. They were the only pieces they could trade that would fetch them anything of value. Everyone else had NTC/NMCs. Carter’s and Richard’s had not yet kicked in. Time was of the essence.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

we’ll have to disagree there.

if they valued richards and carter as much as Hamels should be valued by the phillies, then richards and carter wouldnt have been moved in my opinion.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Disagree. Richards got us 1 million in salary cap space. We could get that by waiving Shelley.

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 18, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I still disagree with this.

Richards’ cap hit this year is 5.75M. Schenn’s cap hit this year is about 1.7M, and Voracek’s is 1.75M.

Filling two top-9 spots for $3.45M is a savings of more than $3M over filling one spot for $5.75M.

Even next year, when Schenn’s cap hit goes up to 3.1M, it’s still more like a $2M savings, because of the extra roster space filled.

by Eric T. on Jan 18, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I wrote a full reply and accidentally hit ‘cancel’ instead of ‘post’ that hurts but essentially the gist was:
- in the offseason the trade got us 900k
- I didn’t consider the effect of the roster space. My bad.
- the Versteeg trade got us more cap space than the Richards one
- we could have simply not signed Jagr if we wanted more cap space and signed a cheap third liner instead
- there are a million other ways we could have signed Bryz without trading Richards. Yes I agree that trading Carter was necessary for the Bryz signing, but trading Richards definitely was not.
- hence I disagree that the team traded its captain for cap space to sign an enigmatic goaltender.

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 18, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think my point is more that Richards wasn’t traded for cap space, as opposed to Richards didn’t free up any cap space. I think that was my original point but in the months after the trade I might have confused myself. And the basis for that point is that after trading Carter for Voracek and 2 picks they didn’t have too much more to do and could have signed Bryz with just a minor amount of roster juggling. If cap space was the objective, Richards certaintly wouldn’t be in the discussion.

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 18, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

And the basis for that point is that after trading Carter for Voracek and 2 picks they didn’t have too much more to do and could have signed Bryz with just a minor amount of roster juggling.

The trades were simultaneous though. You could equally say “after trading Richards, they didn’t have too much more to do and could have signed Bryz with just a minor amount of roster juggling.” Why do you label the Carter move as the cap-dump?

by Eric T. on Jan 18, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Because of the 3.1M Schenn salary – see below.

Also:

The trades were simultaneous though

This is wrong. The Carter trade happened half an hour before ;-)

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 18, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

in the offseason the trade got us 900k

This is wrong. Schenn’s on a two-way contract, so in the off-season he counted on the cap in proportion to the number of days he spent on an NHL roster last year. He was on the Kings’ roster through October and November last year, then sent back to juniors on December 3, so his cap hit in the off-season was something in the neighborhood of 1M.

the Versteeg trade got us more cap space than the Richards one

I disagree with this too. If you replace Versteeg’s 3M salary with a rookie, it saves a little over 2M on the cap. The Richards deal saves over 3M this year.

we could have simply not signed Jagr if we wanted more cap space and signed a cheap third liner instead

If you replace Jagr’s 3M salary with a rookie, it saves a little over 2M on the cap. Also, the timing of the moves certainly implies that their wants were: 1) Bryz, 2) Jagr, 3) Versteeg, 4) Richards+Carter — they moved Richards and Carter on the day they signed Bryz, and then on July 1 moved Versteeg to create room for Jagr.

there are a million other ways we could have signed Bryz without trading Richards

Yes, they could have scrimped in other areas — not signing Jagr, not signing Talbot, trading Carle and Coburn, trading Bobrovsky. My argument is not that trading Richards was the only possible way to clear cap space, just that it did clear a lot of cap space and the team needed that space for other acquisitions they wanted to make.

For that matter, I don’t know how you conclude that trading Carter was necessary if you think the Richards deal wasn’t. Voracek + Couturier make 1.645M less than Carter. Simmonds + Schenn make 2.3M less than Richards.

by Eric T. on Jan 18, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

This is wrong. Schenn’s on a two-way contract, so in the off-season he counted on the cap in proportion to the number of days he spent on an NHL roster last year. He was on the Kings’ roster through October and November last year, then sent back to juniors on December 3, so his cap hit in the off-season was something in the neighborhood of 1M.

This I didn’t know and ruins my argument.

Essentially the basis of all my other arguments was the assumption that Schenn’s 3.1 + Simmonds 1.75 = 4.85 and Richards = 5.75 and 900k isn’t that much. Guess I was wrong.

But yep that was the basis of my comment on Versteeg (2M > 900k), my comment on Jagr (2M > 900k), and my comment on Carter.

Think back to the offseason, you didn’t know that Schenn was going to be any less than 3.1M on the cap this season as bonuses can take a whole year to evaluate. I don’t know if the Flyers were privy to the structure of Schenn’s bonuses before they made the trade. Hence I think you know exactly how I have developed the conclusion that trading Carter was necessary if I think the Richards deal wasn’t. Everything’s got to do with Schenn being listed as 3.1M on the cap. And I think you know as well as I do that the Flyers had zero intention of Schenn playing out the the year in the AHL – whereas with the #8 pick in the Carter deal they probably had more intention of sending him down to juniors than they did keeping him up (but Couturier went and earned his spot on the team).

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 18, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I completely understand — the October revelation about the Schenn contract really changed things, and haven’t (or at least have tried not to) dwell on the moves too much since then.

by Eric T. on Jan 18, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

the flyers felt they had to choose lavy or richards and carter.

if they felt richards and carter were the guys. lavy would have been gone instead.

CCB, where are you?!?

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel like I was listening to a WIP call.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 19, 2012 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I felt like I was going insane.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 19, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I would have jumped in, but I would have gone off the deep end.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 19, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks alot, man. ;-)

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 19, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball...

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I miss it. I admit.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Scrubs, or baseball? :-p

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Both.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see now that my gif is vague, the context (and audio) are important here. :-p

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, sorry. I didn’t bring up baseball, but am always willing to discuss it.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I know.

But I don’t really follow baseball (sorry), so I was making a joke referencing Carla and Elliot using the phrase “shoe shopping” to make the guys tune out of their conversation.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Jan 18, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh good – I was afraid I misread that. Baseball bores me too.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jan 18, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball reminds me of sitting on my deck (or in the room adjacent with the deck door open), watching something really slow but entertaining, my feet up, a drink nearby, and friends to talk to.

It’s really nice. And at the same time, you couldn’t have baseball in winter. Summer is hot, and the slow, relaxed pace of the sport helps you feel cool and relaxed yourself when it’s hot out. Hockey is fast paced and active, keeps you at the edge of your seat, just what you need with the cold temperatures outside to get you active and warm.

They are a nice balance.

It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.

by Dr. Steve on Jan 18, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed. Doesn’t mean I don’t miss it. Also, I hate the winter. The only good thing about winter is hockey.

"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn

by doubleh on Jan 18, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Evidently you either didn’t enjoy your bacchanalian winter solstice feast, or Santa only brought you coal.

Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!

by MaximumTalbot on Jan 18, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

its also why the flyers are my favorite team. they might be aggressive and brash to a fault, but they always want to be the best regardless of the money. growing up it was great to see a team so dedicated to winning as fan.

by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jan 18, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll take Mr. Snider. Sport is theater, and our team is as far from boring as any franchise in the league (Montreal would play the diva). I’m not sure how you can make the argument that a different personality would have won a Cup since ’75 without ignoring the consistent high quality that has made challenging for Cups such a regular feature here.

Also, Bryzgalov not being worth his money isn’t the same thing as saying “Bryzgalov contract = no Cup for 9 years.”

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Jan 18, 2012 1:02 PM EST reply actions  

Reading between the lines practice

What’s funny about this whole thread to me is that I originally interpreted his statement as he re-interpreted it today. That is, other teams suspected the Flyers might go for another goalie. We reacted because, like Friedman, we also know (and have recent evidence) that the Flyers FO is capable of making bold moves in both positive and negative directions.

FYI, this is why I posted my joke about Couturier being asked to play goal (which would of course be another negative bold move, but thankfully not a real option). Had I actually thought that Friedman seriously meant the Flyers would be looking for another goalie, I’d have suggested it would only be as a stopgap, and that Leighton would be option #1 (yuck).

GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal

by Bud in TN on Jan 18, 2012 1:14 PM EST reply actions  


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