Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Relative Deployment Z-Score

Hockey players have roles. Some players are asked to score, some are asked to be physical, some are asked to shut down top competition. With that said, how do you go about comparing players between roles? It’s easy to look at point totals and say “Player A is better than Player B because he has more points,” but that doesn’t mean it’s correct. What if Player A is getting more playing time? What if player A is facing weak competition and aided by strong teammates? What if Player B is facing top competition with weak teammates? Advanced stats like CorsiRel QoC and QoT along with Offensive Zone Start % paint the picture of how the player is being used---but that still doesn’t solve the problem of how to compare players in different situations. I am attempting to solve this problem by creating a stat called RDZ: Relative Deployment Z-Score. It’s simple in theory: How does a player fare against other players who were deployed in similar situations.

Star-divide

To start I’ve compiled data for the past five years (06-07 to 10-11) for every forward who played at least 40 games in a season (If a player played 40 games or more in each of the five years, there will be five different results---one for each season). The total sample size is 1,514 players broken down like so:

Comp Team Players
1 1 83
1 2 100
1 3 94
1 4 87
2 1 103
2 2 116
2 3 101
2 4 59
3 1 114
3 2 122
3 3 109
3 4 81
4 1 58
4 2 35
4 3 93
4 4 159

In order for this to be broken down I copied and pasted every team (individually, 30 teams per season, 5 seasons, 150 teams) and figured out the Comp/Team stats for each player for ever year (Yes, this took a while and the spreadsheets contain tons of data). Once I had it broken down I then separated it into 16 different spreadsheets, one for each deployment situation (1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 2v1, etc). Over the last five years 83 players went up against top competition with top teammates over the course of one full season. The next step was to set up a graph (I am not good enough with the SB Nation Fan Post to copy/paste graphs, if someone can help me with this I think it would be easier to explain) comparing the OZS% to each of G+A1/60 and CRel for every player (Two different graphs). I was looking for some sort of regression line, ideally sloping upward (As OZS% goes up, so should both G+A1 and CRel) and after the data was entered, I found the results I was looking for. When isolating each of the 16 scenarios we could then isolate other stats within each individual scenario looking for correlation and causation. The results were promising, with the G+A1 having a positive slope and an R^2 value of .117 for G+A1 and .0832 for CRel (not great, but when you look at the actual graphs you can see that there is an obvious correlation with OZS% and both G+A1 and CRel).

Once I had the expected G+A1 and CRel for a given OZS%/QoC/QoT combination, we can then enter the individual’s OZS% and find the expected G+A1 and CRel for the player. Once we have that we can find the variance between actual and expected. In the data for the 83 players who were “1v1” the average variance between actual and expected G+A1 was “-7E-04” or “-.000746987…”, either way, it’s basically zero (average variance for CRel was 0). The standard deviation of G+A1 was .3295 and 4.88 for CRel. If you have the actual variance, the expected variance, and the standard deviation of variance, we can then calculate the “Z-Score,” or a formula for explaining how many “standard deviations” each individual result is away from the average. 66.6% of a population falls between the Z-Scores of -1 and 1. 95% between -2 and 2, and 99.7% between -3 and 3. So when looking at a Z score think of it like this: 0 is average (better than 50%). 1 is better than 84.1%, 2 is better than 97.7%, 3 is better than 99.9%. -1 is better than only 15%, -2 is better than only 2.3% and -3 is better than .1%. The whole theory of the stat is that if you know a player’s Z-Score for 1v3, or 2v4, or 1v1 etc... you can then compare it to anyone of any other situation.

We calculate the Z-Score for both GA1 and CRel and call them “GA1Z” and “CRelZ”; we then take a 50/50 average of the two scores to give us our Relative Deployment Z-Score. I use the 50/50 because I want to put equal value on individual scoring and the ability to drive the play forward. Before we look at the players I want to look at the average G+A1/60 and CorsiRel's of each situation given a 50% OZS:

G+A1/60 Corsi Relative
Top Comp
1st line team 1.4608 1st line team 6.6446
2nd line team 1.4549 2nd line team 2.0847
3rd line team 1.3476 3rd line team -0.499
4th line team 1.1651 4th line team -6.993
Any Team 1.3781 Any Team 0.959
2nd Comp
Top Line 1.4978 Top Line 6.5877
Second Line 1.4326 Second Line 3.9334
Third Line 1.2176 Third Line -1.704
Fourth Line 1.1169 Fourth Line -5.779
Any Line 1.3453 Any Line 1.375
3rd Comp
Top Line 1.5766 Top Line 6.9723
Second Line 1.3718 Second Line 2.804
Third Line 1.1924 Third Line -0.8371
Fourth Line 0.9839 Fourth Line -5.223
Any Line 1.2838 Any Line 0.852
4th Comp
Top Line 1.4426 Top Line 6.6281
Second Line 1.2234 Second Line -0.477
Third Line 0.9647 Third Line -2.171
Fourth Line 0.797 Fourth Line -9.194

There have been other attempts at stats similar to this one, but nothing takes into account all three major situational factors: O-Zone Start %, competition AND teammates. You can clearly see in the above table that for each level of competition, as your teammates get better, so do both your individual scoring and your ability to drive the play forward---not to say that wasn't expected. It is important because there is an individual formula for every scenario.

Lets take a look at five players of all different situations:

QoC C QoT T OZS G+A1 Crel
-0.907 4 0.557 1 52.2 0.63 -2.6
0.457 2 0.04 3 51.8 1.95 6.7
0.56 2 -0.487 3 38.7 1.14 -17.6
1.175 1 -0.107 3 47.7 2.16 9.1
0.74 1 1.382 2 49.5 1.04 -3

Lets take another look at those same players:

NAME Team Year GP TOI/60 QoC C QoT T OZS G+A1 Crel ExpG+A1 ExpCRel GADif CRDif GA1Z CRelZ RDZ
DARROLLPOWE PHI 2009 60 9.47 -0.907 4 0.557 1 52.2 0.63 -2.6 1.46372 7.24 -0.83 -9.84 -1.74 -1.76 -1.75
ERICSTAAL CAR 2010 70 14.89 0.457 2 0.04 3 51.8 1.95 6.7 1.2293 -1.02 0.72 7.72 1.99 0.00 1.00
CHRISDRURY NYR 2010 77 12.28 0.56 2 -0.487 3 38.7 1.14 -17.6 1.14415 -6.01 0.00 -11.59 -0.01 0.00 0.00
PAVELDATSYUK DET 2011 56 14.94 1.175 1 -0.107 3 47.7 2.16 9.1 1.3 -1.26 0.86 10.36 2.40 1.60 2.00
MATTCOOKE PIT 2011 67 12.02 0.74 1 1.382 2 49.5 1.04 -3 1.45 2.16 -0.41 -5.16 -1.16 -0.81 -0.98

Datsuk is far and away the best player (his +2 rating means he’s in the top 97.5 percentile of his situation) of the above. Top competition with only 3rd line help, he’s expected to have a GA1 of 1.3 and CRel of -1.26 and he’s blowing it away with a 2.16 and 9.1. Staal’s not quite scoring as much, his Corsi is slightly lower, he’s playing similar situations, but playing second line competition opposed to top line and he’s in the offensive zone 4% more. This bumps his RDZ to 1 (85th percentile). Drury is the one performing as expected with his scoring, but he’s a -17.6 opposed to a -6.01 expected, but he’s doing it while only starting in the offensive zone 38% of the time. Cooke’s with second teammates vs. top competition, scoring well below expected and being driven back while he’s expected to go forward, resulting him in a -1 (15th percentile). Powsie’s ’09 campaign was horrible. Top teammates vs. bottom competition aided by a 52% OZS, his GA1 is almost less than half of everyone else on the chart, and his CRel is 10 points lower than expected. Now that we see how the stat works, lets check out the Flyers this current season.


QoC QoT OZS G+A1/60 Crel ExpGA1 ExpCRel GA1Z CRelZ RDZ
SEANCOUTURIER 4 4 44.3 1.96 1.6 0.8 -10.41 3.42 1.65 2.535
MAXIMETALBOT 2 3 43.6 1.81 0.8 1.18 -4.14 1.75 0.77 1.26
CLAUDEGIROUX 1 1 45.9 2.38 1.2 1.37 5.51 3.07 -0.88 1.095
JAKUBVORACEK 3 3 55.2 1.7 6 1.31 -0.14 0.89 1 0.945
MATTREAD 2 3 49.5 1.69 -0.5 1.21 -1.89 1.32 0.29 0.805
JAROMIRJAGR 2 1 59 2.01 9.1 1.58 7.22 1.12 0.3 0.71
HARRYZOLNIERCZYKK 4 4 49.3 0.96 -5 0.8 -9.34 0.48 0.6 0.54
SCOTTHARTNELL 1 1 49.3 1.59 6.8 1.44 6.45 0.44 0.07 0.255
WAYNESIMMONDS 3 3 62.3 1.74 -1.5 1.46 0.82 0.63 -0.38 0.125
ZACRINALDO 4 4 54.4 1.08 -15.3 0.79 -8.26 0.84 -0.97 -0.065
JAMESVANRIEMSDYK 1 2 63 1.52 2.5 1.7 0.74 -0.52 0.28 -0.12
DANIELBRIERE 3 2 55.8 1.32 -4 1.45 4.7 -0.31 -1.35 -0.83
BRAYDENSCHENN 4 2 60.2 0.53 1.7 1.43 4.65 -2.05 -0.42 -1.235
JODYSHELLEY 4 4 48.1 0 -16.7 0.8 -9.6 -2.36 -0.98 -1.67



Let me start off by saying that Sean Couturier’s 2.535 RDZ is the second best of every player I’ve compiled data for, behind only Sidney Crosby’s 2011 season: 2.817. As a matter of fact, only 7 times ever has a player recorded a 2 or better (1500+ players evaluated): Crosby (‘11, ‘10, ‘08), Ovechkin (‘10), D. Sedin (‘10), Datsuk (‘11), and Guillaume Letendress’s fantastic ’09 season in which he, like Scooter, destroyed 4v4 situations with a 48.8 OZS% to the tune of a 1.53 GA1 and 6.2 CorsiRel when only a .8 GA1 and -9.4 CRel expected. So, yeah, Couturier is playing amazing. Talbot is another surprise behind Scooter, but not when you really look at how good he’s playing in his tough situations. Giroux, Voracek, Read, Jagr, and Harry Z all playing significantly better than an average player would given the situations. Before you freak out and say Hartnell is way underrated---don’t forget this is an even strength only stat, but he’s still above average. Simmer is the last one that can say that. A few of the Flyers at the bottom of this list shouldn’t surprise anyone. Shelley is horrible, in the bottom 10th percentile. Schenner is also in the bottom 15th but that’s been moving up quickly. Rinaldo is surprisingly average and so is JVR, but Danny B has had a rough even strength season, in the bottom 20th percentile. His scoring is almost on pace (1.52 actual, 1.7 expected) but his CorsiRel is just not.

And here are all Flyers for the past 5 years:

NAME Team Year GP TOI/60 QoC C QoT T G/60 A1/60 OZS G+A1 Crel ExpG+A1 ExpCRel GADif CRDif GA1Z CRelZ RDZ
ANDREASNODL PHI 2011 67 12.26 0.88 1 1.708 2 0.66 0.51 43.8 1.17 -0.9 1.34 2.16 -0.17 -3.06 -0.47 -0.48 -0.48
ARRONASHAM PHI 2009 78 8.6 -1.004 4 -0.593 4 0.72 0.63 53.5 1.35 0.8 0.79 -8.45 0.56 9.25 1.64 1.27 1.46
ARRONASHAM PHI 2010 72 9.81 -0.028 4 0.279 3 0.85 0.85 51.7 1.7 -0.1 0.98 -1.54 0.72 1.44 1.93 0.23 1.08
BLAIRBETTS PHI 2010 63 9.29 0.371 2 -3.955 4 0.41 0.51 39.2 0.92 -16.1 0.91 -9.92 0.01 -6.18 0.01 -0.82 -0.41
BLAIRBETTS PHI 2011 75 6.73 -0.483 4 -4.643 4 0.48 0.12 26.9 0.6 -18.8 0.82 -14.10 -0.22 -4.70 -0.64 -0.65 -0.64
CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 2009 42 12.53 -0.087 3 0.183 2 0.8 0.91 51 1.71 11.6 1.38 3.13 0.33 8.47 0.00 1.31 0.66
CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 2010 82 12.38 0.204 3 1.789 2 0.47 0.95 50.6 1.42 0 1.38 3.00 0.04 -3.00 0.00 -0.47 -0.23
CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 2011 82 13.61 0.821 2 2.056 1 0.75 1.29 49.2 2.04 14.1 1.49 6.53 0.55 7.57 1.42 1.21 1.31
DANIELBRIERE PHI 2008 79 13.18 0.098 4 -0.112 3 0.92 0.63 56.9 1.55 -4.4 1.01 0.40 0.54 -4.80 1.44 -0.77 0.33
DANIELBRIERE PHI 2010 75 12.94 0.129 4 2.205 1 0.87 0.68 56.5 1.55 10.1 1.51 8.44 0.05 1.66 0.09 0.30 0.20
DANIELBRIERE PHI 2011 77 14.65 0.252 3 0.051 3 1.49 0.8 53.1 2.29 -0.3 1.26 -0.42 1.03 0.12 2.32 0.02 1.17
DANIELCARCILLO PHI 2009 74 10.61 0.269 2 0.166 2 0.08 0.31 55.1 0.39 -2.3 1.51 4.41 -1.12 -6.71 -2.92 -1.10 -2.01
DANIELCARCILLO PHI 2010 76 10.95 0.506 1 -2.026 4 0.79 0.36 47.8 1.15 -6.7 1.12 -7.35 0.03 0.65 0.09 0.10 0.09
DANIELCARCILLO PHI 2011 57 7.68 0.125 4 -3.631 4 0.55 0.14 40.6 0.69 -8.1 0.80 -11.19 -0.11 3.09 -0.34 0.43 0.04
DARROLLPOWE PHI 2009 60 9.47 -0.907 4 0.557 1 0.42 0.21 52.2 0.63 -2.6 1.46 7.24 -0.83 -9.84 -1.74 -1.76 -1.75
DARROLLPOWE PHI 2010 63 10.64 0.166 3 -0.352 3 0.81 0.45 45 1.26 -2.3 1.08 -1.51 0.18 -0.79 0.40 -0.13 0.13
DARROLLPOWE PHI 2011 81 9 0.189 3 -1.302 4 0.33 0.58 37.2 0.91 -9.3 0.83 -9.57 0.08 0.27 0.17 0.04 0.11
IANLAPERRIERE PHI 2010 82 9.54 0.279 3 -2.82 4 0.23 0.54 40.6 0.77 -16.1 0.87 -8.42 -0.10 -7.68 -0.22 -1.12 -0.67
JAMESDOWD PHI 2008 73 6.54 -0.455 4 -2.444 4 0.5 0.25 30.7 0.75 -16.6 0.81 -13.30 -0.06 -3.30 -0.19 -0.45 -0.32
JAMESVANRIEMSDYK PHI 2010 78 11.15 0.188 3 0.629 2 0.69 0.62 58.8 1.31 8.1 1.49 5.68 -0.18 2.42 0.00 0.38 0.19
JAMESVANRIEMSDYK PHI 2011 75 12.79 0.663 2 2.507 1 1 0.56 52.6 1.56 0.5 1.52 6.77 0.04 -6.27 0.10 -1.00 -0.45
JEFFCARTER PHI 2008 82 13.02 0.824 1 1.914 1 0.9 0.28 39.5 1.18 7.3 1.22 3.74 -0.04 3.56 -0.13 0.73 0.30
JEFFCARTER PHI 2009 82 14.14 0.785 2 -0.045 3 1.4 0.72 40.6 2.12 -1.4 1.16 -5.29 0.96 3.89 2.67 0.00 1.33
JEFFCARTER PHI 2010 74 13.53 0.326 2 3.146 1 1.2 0.36 53.3 1.56 4.8 1.53 6.82 0.03 -2.02 0.08 -0.32 -0.12
JEFFCARTER PHI 2011 80 13.93 0.896 1 3.06 1 1.4 0.48 43.8 1.88 7.8 1.32 4.93 0.56 2.87 1.70 0.59 1.14
JODYSHELLEY PHI 2011 58 6.13 -1.217 4 -5.426 4 0.34 0 38.3 0.34 -17.1 0.81 -11.68 -0.47 -5.42 -1.38 -0.75 -1.06
JOFFREYLUPUL PHI 2008 56 12.71 0.305 3 0.544 2 0.84 0.67 46.6 1.51 0.5 1.33 1.69 0.18 -1.19 0.00 -0.19 -0.09
JOFFREYLUPUL PHI 2009 79 12.75 0.193 2 -0.163 3 1.13 0.6 46.9 1.73 -2.9 1.20 -2.89 0.53 -0.01 1.47 0.00 0.74
KRISVERSTEEG PHI 2011 80 13.8 0.86 1 -0.462 3 0.76 0.6 52.8 1.36 1.8 1.41 0.42 -0.05 1.38 -0.14 0.21 0.04
MIKEKNUBLE PHI 2008 82 12.65 0.808 1 1.804 1 0.69 0.41 44.3 1.1 3.1 1.33 5.07 -0.23 -1.97 -0.70 -0.40 -0.55
MIKEKNUBLE PHI 2009 82 12.93 1.216 1 0.284 2 0.91 0.4 47.1 1.31 3.1 1.40 2.16 -0.09 0.94 -0.25 0.15 -0.05
MIKERICHARDS PHI 2008 73 12.62 0.468 2 0.61 2 0.91 0.78 31.5 1.69 4.7 1.19 2.20 0.50 2.50 1.29 0.41 0.85
MIKERICHARDS PHI 2009 79 14.13 0.948 1 0.306 2 0.7 0.97 40.2 1.67 1.1 1.27 2.16 0.40 -1.06 1.15 -0.17 0.49
MIKERICHARDS PHI 2010 82 14.09 0.811 1 1.78 2 0.83 0.26 46.8 1.09 4.6 1.39 2.16 -0.30 2.44 -0.87 0.38 -0.24
MIKERICHARDS PHI 2011 81 13.26 0.752 2 1.513 2 0.78 0.84 46.8 1.62 1.1 1.40 3.63 0.22 -2.53 0.57 -0.42 0.08
NIKOLAIZHERDEV PHI 2011 56 11.61 0.221 3 1.785 2 1.29 0.18 49.9 1.47 17.3 1.37 2.77 0.10 14.53 0.00 2.25 1.13
R.J.UMBERGER PHI 2008 74 12.76 0.553 2 0.038 3 0.57 0.83 44.6 1.4 -2.9 1.18 -3.76 0.22 0.86 0.60 0.00 0.30
RILEYCOTE PHI 2008 70 4.2 -1.091 4 -4.481 4 0.2 0.41 44.8 0.61 -10.8 0.80 -10.30 -0.19 -0.50 -0.57 -0.07 -0.32
RILEYCOTE PHI 2009 63 4.16 -2.28 4 -1.742 4 0 0.46 65.7 0.46 -0.8 0.78 -5.86 -0.32 5.06 -0.96 0.70 -0.13
SAMIKAPANEN PHI 2008 74 10.71 0.218 3 -0.55 3 0.3 0.15 43.1 0.45 -6.2 1.04 -1.77 -0.59 -4.43 -1.34 -0.72 -1.03
SCOTTHARTNELL PHI 2008 80 12.99 0.279 3 0.623 2 0.69 0.63 45.9 1.32 1.5 1.32 1.46 0.00 0.04 0.00 0.01 0.00
SCOTTHARTNELL PHI 2009 82 13.32 0.473 2 -0.417 4 1.26 0.66 43.4 1.92 -2 0.99 -8.31 0.93 6.31 2.29 0.84 1.56
SCOTTHARTNELL PHI 2010 81 12.43 -0.025 4 2.866 1 0.36 0.89 50 1.25 3.7 1.44 6.63 -0.19 -2.93 -0.40 -0.52 -0.46
SCOTTHARTNELL PHI 2011 82 13.55 0.253 3 0.495 3 1.13 0.54 53 1.67 -0.5 1.26 -0.43 0.41 -0.07 0.93 -0.01 0.46
SCOTTIEUPSHALL PHI 2008 61 11.41 0.571 2 0.881 2 0.78 0.6 45.9 1.38 18.3 1.39 3.55 -0.01 14.75 -0.02 2.42 1.20
SIMONGAGNE PHI 2009 79 12.74 1.018 1 0.497 1 1.01 0.6 47.3 1.61 1.7 1.40 5.90 0.21 -4.20 0.64 -0.86 -0.11
SIMONGAGNE PHI 2010 58 13.24 0.741 1 1.835 2 0.86 0.31 52.7 1.17 3 1.51 2.16 -0.34 0.84 -0.96 0.13 -0.41
VACLAVPROSPAL PHI 2008 80 15.54 0.34 3 -0.172 3 1.01 0.97 59 1.98 -1.6 1.39 0.38 0.59 -1.98 1.33 -0.32 0.51
VILLELEINO PHI 2010 55 11.42 0.354 2 0.019 3 0.48 0.19 56.2 0.67 9.5 1.26 0.66 -0.59 8.84 -1.63 0.00 -0.82
VILLELEINO PHI 2011 81 13.42 0.138 4 -0.059 3 0.77 0.77 62.3 1.54 0 1.05 2.41 0.49 -2.41 1.32 -0.39 0.46

And a closer look at the best and worst seasons over the past five years:

NAME Year GP TOI/60 C T OZS G+A1 Crel ExpG+A1 ExpCRel GA1Z CRelZ UtZ
SCOTTHARTNELL 2009 82 13.32 2 4 43.4 1.92 -2 0.99 -8.31 2.29 0.84 1.56
ARRONASHAM 2009 78 8.6 4 4 53.5 1.35 0.8 0.79 -8.45 1.64 1.27 1.46
JEFFCARTER 2009 82 14.14 2 3 40.6 2.12 -1.4 1.16 -5.29 2.67 0.00 1.33
CLAUDEGIROUX 2011 82 13.61 2 1 49.2 2.04 14.1 1.49 6.53 1.42 1.21 1.31
SCOTTIEUPSHALL 2008 61 11.41 2 2 45.9 1.38 18.3 1.39 3.55 -0.02 2.42 1.20
DANIELBRIERE 2011 77 14.65 3 3 53.1 2.29 -0.3 1.26 -0.42 2.32 0.02 1.17
JEFFCARTER 2011 80 13.93 1 1 43.8 1.88 7.8 1.32 4.93 1.70 0.59 1.14
NIKOLAIZHERDEV 2011 56 11.61 3 2 49.9 1.47 17.3 1.37 2.77 0.00 2.25 1.13
ARRONASHAM 2010 72 9.81 4 3 51.7 1.7 -0.1 0.98 -1.54 1.93 0.23 1.08
MIKERICHARDS 2008 73 12.62 2 2 31.5 1.69 4.7 1.19 2.20 1.29 0.41 0.85
JOFFREYLUPUL 2009 79 12.75 2 3 46.9 1.73 -2.9 1.20 -2.89 1.47 0.00 0.74
CLAUDEGIROUX 2009 42 12.53 3 2 51 1.71 11.6 1.38 3.13 0.00 1.31 0.66
BLAIRBETTS 2011 75 6.73 4 4 26.9 0.6 -18.8 0.81548 -14.10 -0.64 -0.64 -0.6431
IANLAPERRIERE 2010 82 9.54 3 4 40.6 0.77 -16.1 0.87016 -8.41524 -0.21 -1.124 -0.6714
VILLELEINO 2010 55 11.42 2 3 56.2 0.67 9.5 1.2579 0.65944 -1.629 -0.0028 -0.8159
SAMIKAPANEN 2008 74 10.71 3 3 43.1 0.45 -6.2 1.04267 -1.7686 -1.335 -0.721 -1.0283
JODYSHELLEY 2011 58 6.13 4 4 38.3 0.34 -17.1 0.80636 -11.68025 -1.381 -0.745 -1.063
DARROLLPOWE 2009 60 9.47 4 1 52.2 0.63 -2.6 1.46372 7.24058 -1.740 -1.762 -1.751
DANIELCARCILLO 2009 74 10.61 2 2 55.1 0.39 -2.3 1.51396 4.41127 -2.922 -1.099 -2.011

The first thing I want to point out is that in 2009 the Flyers were led by 46 goal scorer Jeff Carter, 30/30 Scott Hartnell, and now All-Star Joffrey Lupul. All 3 are in the top 12 in the past 5 years, all 3 had a negative CorsiRel, however they lit the lamp enough to more than compensate for the very mediocre CorsiRels. Aaron Asham makes the list. twice. Giroux’s rookie year and his 2011 make the top 12. Upshall’s first year as a Flyer and Mike Richard’s breakout 2008 season were all memorable. Nicolay Zherdev and his ridiculous Corsi from last year put him up here, and Briere and Jeff Carter’s 2011 rounds out the memorable seasons. As for the bad ones… Powe’s rookie year, Kapanen’s final year, Leino’s half Det/half Philly season, and Danny Carcillo’s first season’s were all ones to forget. A surprising appearance by a dominant PK duo: Lappy’s 2010 and Bettsy’s 2011. A not surprising appearance by king argument starter (and not-so-good hockey player): Jody Shelley.

Questions?

Poll
What do you think of RDZ?
Love it
2 votes
Like it
3 votes
Jury's still out
5 votes
Don't like
2 votes
Hate it
0 votes

12 votes | Poll has closed

This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.

Comment 25 comments  |  Add comment  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

This is really cool. A ton of work, but really interesting. I ran into the same problem with my data table on Calder candidates — it was too wide. Not sure how to reformat unless I remove columns, reduce the font or scrunch them a little more.

There have recently been a few posts pointing out how amazingly well Cooter is doing! Incredilby incredible! (as Milbury would say)

by Georgia_Flyer on Jan 25, 2012 7:52 PM EST reply actions  

For me it was only too wide when I wasn’t signed into my SBNation account. As long as you’re signed in you should be able to see everything.

There have recently been a few posts pointing out how amazingly well Cooter is doing!

Yeah, it was very cool to see that Scooter is playing so well. I give a lot of credit to the front office—-they took a lot of shit for keeping Scooter and waiving Betts, but it’s really turned out to be the correct move.

by OrangeNblacK on Jan 25, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

This is sounds interesting but honestly I’m having a hard time following it.

by j reed on Jan 26, 2012 1:23 PM EST reply actions  

As I understand it. You take play X and use him in a certain way Y and see how much better he perfom then league avg (Z)

I think somebody did a similar study called balanced corsi rel.

by Anders Jensen on Jan 26, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but the normalization here is a bit confusing. I am assuming he normalized somehow for 1v1, versus 1v2, versus 1v3 etc since he is comparing Couturier to Crosby, Grioux, etc. (or else those comparisons would be incorrect to make) but it’s not obvious how he did it (after going to lengths to explain how he kept them in separate categories). I’m also not sure what competition metric he used, I believe he is using the +/- base QoC and QoT, but I’m not certain. Also, I don’t think I agree with making them 1, 2, 3, and 4’s versus their actual numerical value.

This was fairly difficult to follow. I understand the intent, it’s just not obvious that it was done correctly.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 26, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I didnt read trough all of it, because im not that good with statistics (most of kinda maths is no problem, just statistic make no sense from a logic point of view)

by Anders Jensen on Jan 26, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I skimmed parts as well so I could have clearly missed something.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 26, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I used CRelQoC and CRelQoT as comp/team levels. I used 1,2,3,4 to be able to give me 16 different populations. There are 16 ‘formulas’, one for each situation (1/1,3/4,4/4 etc), and all you need to do to calculate the RDZ is have 5 stats: CrelQoC and CrelQoT (the integer 1,2,3,4; not the raw #), OZS% (The independent variable—- the OZS% affects each situation differently (I have data/graphs/tables showing the slopes of the regression lines (and r^2 values) of how the OZS% affects each of the 16 situations differently), G+A1/60 (Once you pick one of the 16 situations (one of 16 independent data sets with their own linear regressions) you plug the OZS into the “x” value in the formula. Your result is the Expected G+A1 given QoC, QoT, and now OZS. Take that number (which is now actual GA1 minus expected GA1. Each of the 16 situations has it’s own ‘average varience’ and it’s own ‘standard deviation of varience’. Actual variance of GA1 minus expected variance over standard deviation of variance = Z-Score of said variance—- where the ‘variance’ in question is the difference between the player in question and the average player in the same exact deployment) and CorsiRel (Same as GA1 but using the CorsiRel numbers instead). Add the GA1z with the Crelz and divide by two for your final Relative Deployment Z-Score.

by OrangeNblacK on Jan 26, 2012 3:09 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

When I get home I can post formulas for regression lines, average variances, and standard deviations of variances for each of the 16 situations. Or I can email you the data if you want to check my work? Or if someone could teach me how to upload an excel document to the post…

by OrangeNblacK on Jan 26, 2012 3:14 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

If you could use mediafire or some website and just provide a link to your Excel document? (linking to mediafire is not against the rules is it masthead?)

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 26, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the one thing I would really like to check with this is whether the sample is actually normally distributed. Because if not then I believe using the Z distribution wouldn’t be accurate. There are tests which check for normality; the D’Agostino-Pearson test is one of them (null hypothesis = normal distribution, therefore p>0.05 on this test indicates it’s a normal distribution). If I get time I might run the test for you at some point if I get my hands on the Excel document.

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 26, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

So basically it should only be used to compare players within the same category of deployment correct? Comparing Couturier to Giroux, or Crosby, etc. would be incorrect to do as they would fall in to a different grouping? Or do I have it wrong still, because the way it reads to me is that the comparisons only work within each deployment category, Player X was deployed in Situation 2, and Player Y was deployed in Situation 2. Player X had an RDZ of 1.2, and Player Y had an RDZ of 2.3, Player Y outperformed Player X in Situation 2. That’ what it is telling you correct?

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 26, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, what are the p-values or t-stats for you independent variables, or your F-stat of your model as a whole?

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 26, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s using the Z distribution – by which I mean he is normalizing all of his 16 cohorts into a normal distribution with mean of 0 and standard deviation of 1. So he’s saying that within his cohort, this is how much Crosby’s performance is better than his peers, and within his cohort, this is how much Couturier’s performance is better than his peers. By normalizing it he can seek to make comparisons between categories. He cannot say that Couturier outperformed Crobsy because they had situations, but he could say that Couturier’s performance in his situation is at a level above his peers that is greater than Crosby’s performance in his situation.

I think – but as I said, you can’t chuck a Z distribution on just any sample. You need to establish normality, and you do so using the D’Agostino-Pearson test which will give you p>0.05 if it is normally distributed. At least that’s what I’ve used in the past (although I don’t know too much about stats, just enough to work on some medical research analysis).

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 26, 2012 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

He cannot say that Couturier outperformed Crobsy because they had situations, but he could say that Couturier’s performance in his situation is at a level above his peers that is greater than Crosby’s performance in his situation.

Ok got it. Regardless, I just don’t think that’s enough to make the comparison as you pointed out, especially since it seems like first line guys are getting shortchanged on the scoring using the eyeball test in general. I think what it tells you is, Couturier at 18/19 is far better than 4th line guys, which we knew; but we truly don’t know how he’d perform in the situations Crosby, Datsyuk, Giroux, whoever are put in. So if he is trying to do that, which it still seems like he is to me the way some of the post reads, I think he has come up short.

Also, I really, really don’t like the categorization; 1, 2, 3, and 4.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 27, 2012 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

If I didn’t categorize by ‘1,2,3,4’ how would I be able to include O-Zone Starts at all? Doing it this way creates a way to compare situations as well as players. Being able to know which is tougher :1v2 w/ 65% or 4v4 w/ 45%? If we know that player A is outperforming player B in their individual situations AND that A is playing is playing in a tougher actual situation than player B, then we can make a conclusion.

by OrangeNblacK on Jan 27, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Here’s my thing, and yes this is cherry picking, but:

Ollie Jokinen has a CorsiRelQoC of 2.108, second on his team. This puts him as “1” opposition.
Jim Slater has a CorsiRelQoC of 0.606, first on his team. This puts him as “1” opposition.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 29, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

If we know that player A is outperforming player B in their individual situations AND that A is playing is playing in a tougher actual situation than player B, then we can make a conclusion.

That’s a very specific case, and not the problem I’m referring to. I can already do that just looking at numbers on BtN.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 30, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Here’s a better example:
Player A: 1.3 GA1, 0 Crel
Player B: 1.5GA1, 5 Crel
Who’s better? B, obviously.

Player A: 2C3T 45% OZS, 1.3 GA1, 0Crel
Player B: 3C1T 57% OZS, 1.5 GA1, 5Crel
Who’s better? Tough one…

Expectation for player with 2C3T @ 45% OZS: 1.19GA1, -3.61 Crel
Expectation for player with 3C1T @ 57% OZS: 1.66GA1, 7.71 Crel

Okay, now that we know “A” is scoring at +.11 expected, and his Crel is +3.61, we can conclude he is playing better than the average player in that situation. Player “B” is scoring at -.16 what an average player would and his Crel is -7.71 what it should be. The actual stat “RDZ” may not be there yet, but the data is very useful. Knowing what a player should get in the situation he’s playing in is just as important as the situation itself.

by OrangeNblacK on Jan 30, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I get the how you want to apply, I disagree that it’s useful in comparing those two players against each other, or that it’s even appropriate. The only use it has, IMO, is comparing a player in a given situation to other players in the same type of situation.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 30, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

And that’s not a negative, I just think it’s use is limited to that. And I don’t disagree at all as to the usefulness of knowing an expected performance given a certain situation.

Though I do have a question for you in the Talbot thread I’d like you to address.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 30, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah pretty much agree with you.

I do appreciate the effort OrangeNblacK so don’t take it the wrong way but as always when you pioneer anything new it faces skepticism; I just don’t think this RDZ stat – in its current form – can be clearly interpreted. Another thing that really bugged me was averaging the GA1/60-Z score and the CRel-Z score. I just think there’s really no need to do that and it detracts from the final stat. Because what you’re implying is GA1 and Crel are both equally relevant to evaluating a player – which may well not be true.

Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.

One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.

by PursuitOfLappyness on Jan 28, 2012 3:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I don’t want to discourage work, I just want to point out the problems I see with it so people that may not be able to pick them out can see what I view as issues. I’m not trying to take shots at O&B at all. You don’t get anywhere by not making an effort.

And I agree with your other issue.

being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11

by DLJr on Jan 30, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It set off my Occam’s Razor alarm. But quantifying a game like hockey is a difficult and complicated task so it maybe certainly justified.
One thing became evident to me though, I think hockey metrics really needs to take a page from baseball and develop better initialism methods. Visually it’s an utter mess once you start floating around enough terms.

by j reed on Jan 31, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Giroux vs. Malkin analysis (top MVP candidates)
Giroux:
1C1T 45.9OZS: Expected GA1- 1.37, Expected CRel: 5.51
-—————————-Actual G+A1: 2.31, Actual CRel: 2.2
-—————————-Variance GA1: .94, Variance CRel: 3.31
Malkin:
3C1T 65.1OZS: Expected GA1
1.76, Expected CRel: 8.56
-—————————Actual GA1: 3.1 , Actual CRel: 13.1
-—————————Variance GA1: 1.34, Variance CRel: 4.54

by OrangeNblacK on Feb 1, 2012 1:18 PM EST reply actions  


User Tools

All the Philadelphia Flyers news and commentary that's fit to print.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Flyers-orange-crush_small
NHL Draft 2012: Options on defense in the first round

Recent FanPosts

Patal_small
Andrew Johnston Scouting Report: A first-hand look at the Flyers newest prospect
Small
What being a Hockey fan means to me.
Small
Could Parise and Weber be in Flyers' future?
Mick_jagr_2_small
SB Nation app
Small
Hockey Stick Help
Copy_of_137494800_slide_small
The 2011-12 Philadelphia Flyers season in GIFs
37938_10150235117290484_539355483_13709206_6888144_n_small
Ilya Bryzgalov has chance to take shot at Flyers fans, does
Small
Can the Flyers win the Cup with Bryz?
Carcillo_small
Flyers in the Off-Season

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managing Editor

Screen_shot_2012-01-09_at_12 Travis Hughes

Associate Editors

67865_878600804923_14200876_46395212_2220_n_small Geoff Detweiler

Headshot2_film_grain_small Ben Rothenberg

Soccer_face_small Eric T.

Contributors

163830_478172269164_824914164_5517468_4313370_n_small ToddtheFox

Clarke-tee_small KreiderDesigns

D150_small Teemu H