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Is the Shootout Really a Crapshoot?

The Flyers have been terrible in shootouts lately. And pretty much forever, really. So every time they lose one, people start venting in the game day thread, and it's almost inevitable that someone will point to an excellent Behind the Net article that argued that the shootout is a crapshoot. But is this really true?

Well, of course it is. As I've outlined before, pretty much everything has both a talent component (how often do you succeed) and a luck component (did this happen to be one of those times). Think about a guy shooting a free throw -- if he misses it, it doesn't necessarily mean he did something wrong or that he's bad at them; they just don't all go in and there isn't always an explanation for it. If he's a bad shooter, he's more likely to miss, but random chance is always a factor.

That's where sample size comes in. The more shots he takes, the more random chance evens out and the more meaningful our observation gets. After ten shots, you might make a tentative guess of whether he's any good. After 100, you'd feel better about it. After 1000, the luck has probably evened out and you know his talent pretty well.

Back to hockey. A shootout is decided after somewhere around three or four shots per team. That's not a very large sample size, and any given team can win any given shootout as a result. The real question isn't whether the shootout is a crapshoot; it's whether we're playing with loaded dice, whether some players or teams are legitimately better at shootouts than others.

Star-divide

The original Behind the Net article concluded "there is not enough evidence to suggest that individual skill levels make a difference in player shootout performance". The wording here is precise and important; it is easy to lose sight of the difference between "all players are the same" and "no player has yet had enough shots to really prove that he's better (or worse) than average."

That article looked at 5711 shootout attempts over five years and saw that Marc Denis was the only goalie who could be said with 99% confidence to be better than average and no goalie could be said with 99% confidence to be worse than average. After accounting for head-to-head matchups, no shooter could be said with 99% confidence to be better than average, and only a few appeared to be worse than average -- and even those players seem to have regressed to the mean since then:

Player '06-10 Last 1.5 yrs
Michael Frolik 1/11 (9.1%) 1/2
Marian Gaborik 2/18 (11.1%) 3/6
Martin Havlat 3/18 (16.7%) 1/4
Dany Heatley 4/25 (16.0%) 1/5
Tomas Plekanec 2/16 (12.5%) 2/5
Alexei Ponikarovsky 1/12 (8.3%) 0/0
Taylor Pyatt 1/13 (7.7%) 0/0
Bobby Ryan 1/11 (9.1%) 4/7
Michael Ryder 4/22 (18.2%) 2/9
Stephen Weiss 4/24 (16.7%) 4/12
Total for this group 23/170 (13.5%) 18/50 (36.0%)

The ten shooters who looked most clearly below average over the first five years after the lockout are collectively better than the league average (32.6%) since then. This makes a pretty compelling argument that even five years' data wasn't enough to tell us who the good shooters are.

But as always, a larger sample is better, so let's update to include data for all shots through February 9, 2012. Much like what schuckers showed in the Behind the Net article, here's a plot of save percentage versus shots faced -- the red line is the league average and we can say with 99% confidence that anyone on the blue line is better/worse than average.

Shootout_goalies_medium

With 91 goalies facing at least 14 shots (the minimum number required to prove you are better than average), we would expect to have one goalie on the blue line by random chance. As it happens, two goalies exceed that threshold and a few others are near it -- we still can't feel very confident that this is anything more than random chance, but the fact that more goalies are moving towards the lines as the dataset grows larger does suggest that there may be a talent here that we just haven't been able to measure yet.

Here's the corresponding plot for shooters:

Shootout_shooters_medium

With 181 shooters taking at least 14 shots, we would expect to have about two at the 99% threshold by random chance. Like with the goalies, we see a little movement towards the significance line with the new, larger data set, which I'd like to believe implies that there is some underlying talent that we just can't measure yet. But like with the goalies, the takeaway is that for the vast majority of players, we still can't even say whether they're better or worse than average, and we certainly can't show that any team has enough above (or below) average players to be significantly better (or worse) than 50/50.

In other words, if the dice are loaded, we can't tell.

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Bibliogrpahy for you

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2009/10/19/1089029/shootouts-does-past-performance
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2009/10/20/1089388/shootouts-goaltender-true-talent

There’s a small amount of talent there – the best (Jokinen, Christensen, Toews) are probably 25% better than the bulk of offensive forwards.

by Hawerchuk on Feb 13, 2012 11:44 AM EST reply actions  

Bibliography

It’s hard to type on the train

by Hawerchuk on Feb 13, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I hadn’t seen those articles; thanks for adding them.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

url victoorrrrry

Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?

by Travis Hughes on Feb 13, 2012 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

Wait....

How did this get to the top of my page????

Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!

DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 12:37 PM EST reply actions  

Actually Eric that is a lot of honest work right there but I am tired of even hearing the “S” word.

Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!

DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 12:38 PM EST reply actions  

Can we call it the Crapout from now on?

/s, more often than not

by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 12:46 PM EST reply actions  

When you score, a crap-in

by j reed on Feb 14, 2012 2:38 AM EST up reply actions  

in case I needed another reason to hate shootout

Last night in my NHL 12 Be a pro (I’m a defenseman on the Kings) the game went to a shootout that lasted SEVENTEEN ROUNDS and my coach STILL DIDN’T PUT ME IN. Obviously shootouts stink and Terry Murray was a horrible coach who rightly deserved to be fired.

Uh, yeah. Good job Eric.

by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 13, 2012 1:01 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

Sounds like a choking situtaion

Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!

DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Washington finally scored in the 17th round and they put in Slava Voynov over me. Slava friggin’ Voynov. Come on, man!

by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 13, 2012 1:27 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Any longer and it would have been down to you and Bernier.

by Georgia_Flyer on Feb 13, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

"Before & After" for $400

Come seven, come eleven! This nickname for a popular casino dice game, featured in the musical Guys & Dolls, was instituted by the NHL in 2005-06 as a means of declaring a winner in games which were still tied at the end of overtime.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Feb 13, 2012 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

Bah.

Come Seven, come eleven!

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Feb 13, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Before and after for $400 sounds like something completely different. But who am I to judge.

Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!

DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Feb 13, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

You guys are just bitter that the Flyers suck at the shootout!

by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 1:31 PM EST reply actions  

Can’t argue we suck at it.

Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!

DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

By the time there are enough data to show whether teams suck or excel at crapouts, the Flyers will be the team that proves sucking at them exists.

by Georgia_Flyer on Feb 13, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m assuming Simmonds was so far below the line that he didn’t appear on the graph?

Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."

by Snevik on Feb 13, 2012 2:27 PM EST reply actions  

Simmonds is 2 for 8, so he’s on the graph.

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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

he’s not*

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I assumed Snevik was being sarcastic. Everyone’s on the graph, though only a few got named. And obviously 25% isn’t way below the line.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, I thought you only included those with 14 or more shots.

Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor

by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Aha. Sorry for the confusion — everyone’s on the graph, but the lower blue line starts at 14 because there’s a >1% chance that a player who is 0/13 could be an average shooter. So for saying how many people we’d expect to see on the blue line by random chance, I focused on the number of guys with at least 14 shots.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

___

It occurs to me that the graph doesn’t give a great sense of the distribution, because everyone who is 2/8 shows up in that same single dot. Here’s a redone version where the points have been spread slightly apart:

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Dumb question: how do you get someone who’s taken (what appears to be) one or two attempts at 90%? That seems mathematically impossible.

by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 13, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a dumb question at all; I didn’t really explain what this is, I guess.

The plot that’s in the text of the article has the players’ actual shots taken and shooting percentages. Unfortunately, that means that if 16 people are all 2/8, you just see one dot at 2/8 and can’t get a great sense for what the distribution looks like, how many people are in that lower end of the curve.

So for this plot in the comments, instead of showing players’ actual numbers, I show their numbers plus or minus a small random number. It spreads the dots out a little so you can see how many guys there are in each range…but it has the unfortunate side effect of making the plots not be precise data. So while Adam Foote is actually 0/1 for his career, in this plot he’s shown as if he scored 0.12 goals on 1.45 shots. Which isn’t really true, of course, but it makes it so you can see how many guys are in that 0/1 or 0/2 range.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

We may just suck at it. I’m just afraid of becoming a team that encounters it often. Defense is part of why it ends up showing up or going away.

by blimblam on Feb 13, 2012 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Also, some teams play for it. The Flyers certainly don’t.

A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.

by doubleh on Feb 13, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Eric, how much does it change at a 95% confidence interval?

Bob.

by The Dark on Feb 13, 2012 5:06 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

___

Here’s the same plots from the articles, but with the blue lines at 95% confidence instead of 99%, so we expect them to pull out about 5 goalies and 10 shooters:

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Erm, that should say “expect 5 goalies and 10 shooters to be at/beyond the blue lines if there is no talent and this is all a coinflip”.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks. I was curious, because most of my economics work was at 95% confidence intervals (I would guess because that’s what polling is usually done at). The 95% intervals suggest it’s still something to look at for better than average for shooters, but that either there aren’t any bad shootout shooters (somewhat unlikely) or that coaches select out that group and don’t let them shoot (far more likely – after all, we’re not using Shelley in the shootout).

And, apparently, being a goalie with a name that ends in “qvist” means you will be good at the shootout.

Bob.

by The Dark on Feb 13, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

The selection bias against bad shooters is part of it. But there was something surprising in the original article, that schuckers didn’t call much attention to: nobody was below the blue line on the simple plot like what I drew here, but when he did more advanced modeling to account for head-to-head play and how much of the result comes from the goalie or the shooter, he found several guys who appeared to be below average.

Of course, those are the guys who shot 36% since then, so I dunno, maybe the simple model is better or maybe there just really isn’t a talent.

And I used 99% just to make comparison with schuckers’ charts possible, but I also think it makes sense in a case where you’re looking at about a hundred samples and asking if any are really above average.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Very interesting article, Eric.

This is probably a dumb question, but if there is some unknown skill we have not yet measured, about how long would it take to manifest itself? Seeing as the original article was published December 2010, would publishing another update in a year possibly reveal something we had not yet known?

Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.

by Justin F. on Feb 13, 2012 6:47 PM EST reply actions  

For every player, the extra year adds information, but that information is the most valuable for the guys we know the least about. You can see that from how the blue curves flatten out — an extra 30 shots has a lot more impact on the confidence interval for a young goalie who’s seen 30 shots than for a veteran who’s seen 200.

At this point, if we’re barely seeing anyone who we can confidently say is above average, I doubt that a few more years will reveal a wide spread of talents. But it probably would help identify a few more players who likely are above average.

by Eric T. on Feb 13, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate the shootout. If we start winning them I might like them more but right now I think they suck. Besides, it’s not a team win/loss. We really need to have a 3-2-1-0 points system with a 10 minute OT. I guarantee you with a tie pending and no pts gained teams will play for the regulation win harder instead of killing off the last few minutes with figure skating.

3 pts regulation win
2 pts OT win
1 pt OT loss
0 pts tie

by Kanayd on Feb 13, 2012 9:00 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!

DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.

by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

In other words, get rid of the shootout.
In all seriousness though, it takes more skill than luck to score one on one with a goalie. With a free throw luck has more to do with it going in or not.

Awaiting the return of the G-stache
"There’s more to life than being really, really, really good at hockey."
-DannyMcG
Suck it, Phaneuf

by Philly37 on Feb 13, 2012 10:18 PM EST reply actions  

Well there are more variables when you have and adversarial relationship in which one controls the stimulus and the other responds to it. I’d say that might introduce more luck into the equation as the more variables can introduce more opportunity for random variation.

by j reed on Feb 14, 2012 2:59 AM EST up reply actions  

No amount of luck could help me hit a free throw.

Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced

by hintzy64 on Feb 14, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

2 questions...

wouldn’t our luck increase if we started shootouts with our more skilled players? why giroux 2nd? why shenn and simmonds at all?

also, no one has ever explained to me why you get a point just for making it in to OT. in the old days you got 2 if you won or you got your courtesy 1 after overtime. at least make teams earn that 1 by making it to the shootout: NO POINTS FOR OT LOSS!

also, shootouts suck.

by Nuge in Vermont on Feb 14, 2012 2:45 PM EST reply actions  

wouldn’t our luck increase if we started shootouts with our more skilled players? why giroux 2nd?

It doesn’t matter whether a player goes first, second, or third — at least not mathematically, although maybe taking a lead puts pressure on the other team that causes some players to perform better and others to perform worse.

why shenn and simmonds at all?

Well, because of the small sample size, the Flyers don’t have anyone who we can say with confidence is better or worse than average. But even if we ignore sample size concerns, it’s not clear who they should pick. Briere (43.5% on 46 shots) and Giroux (33.3% on 21 shots) look like clear choices. But who goes third?

Timonen and Simmonds are at 25% on 8 shots.
Voracek is at 23.1% on 13 shots.
Jagr is at 21.7% on 23 shots.
Nobody else on the Flyers has ever scored on a shootout.

Simmonds doesn’t look like a particularly bad choice by the numbers.

also, no one has ever explained to me why you get a point just for making it in to OT. in the old days you got 2 if you won or you got your courtesy 1 after overtime. at least make teams earn that 1 by making it to the shootout: NO POINTS FOR OT LOSS!

There was a perception (though I’m not sure the numbers back it up) that in the old days teams would play lifeless hockey for five minutes because they were afraid of losing a point by pressing to win. The new system was designed to give teams every incentive to play aggressive hockey in the final five minutes to create exciting finishes.

by Eric T. on Feb 14, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  


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