Zac Rinaldo hit on Jonathan Ericsson: Clean? Dirty? Somewhere in between?
by Travis Hughes on Feb 13, 2012 11:14 AM EST
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PrintMaybe my first reaction to Zac Rinaldo's hit on Jonathan Ericsson last night was a bit unfair. I called it "embarrassing," and maybe I fell victim to judging Rinaldo on his reputation more than the actual merits of the hit itself.
Reaction in real-time seemed to be about 50-50, with plenty of people believing Rinaldo went high on Ericsson and plenty of people blaming the Wings' defenseman for admiring his hit. Let's go to the tape.
Rinaldo was given a two-minute minor for charging, a punishment Red Wings fans were happy with last night when I joined Winging It In Motown's weekly podcast to talk about the game.
I don't think there's any denying that's a fair call. Rinaldo gives up five inches to Ericsson and basically hits him in the chin, which might just be physically impossible without coming off your skates before the hit. It's definitely a charge, but is it worth anything more than a two-minute minor penalty?
It's definitely high, and it could be seen as a head hit, but it's tough to tell whether or not he makes the head the principal point of contact or if he catches somewhere just below the head. It wasn't a terribly late hit -- after the pass, yeah, but not considerably long after the pass -- but it is a charge. I feel like it sort of falls in some gray area a bit, and that it's completely open to interpretation. Rinaldo has a hearing with Brendan Shanahan this afternoon, so we'll see how he interprets it.
Bottom line, though, is that Rinaldo really just should've stayed on his skates. If he did that, this is one of the best hits of the year. By leaping into it, however, he's leaving suspension on the table as a legitimate option.
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It’s a penalty, but when I saw it last night, it didn’t strike me as dirty, or anything worthy of a suspension.
Jagr shoots, Jagr scores!!!!!!
Agreed, but if there’s contact with the head, it becomes a blindside headshot and gets a different level of scrutiny. I’m not sure there is, but that’s what I’d be nervous about.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
It's only a blindside headshot....
Because Ericsson was playing like a twelve year old. Keep your head up kid! No problem with the charging call, but I do have a problem with suspensions that compensate for careless/reckless play. Ericsson should be expecting traffic and contact back there. It was irresponsible of him to be looking backwards right after making a play.
So you think it’s ok to hit someone in the head from the blindside if your blindside hit came from the place you think he should’ve been looking?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
The charging warranted a penalty, which is the punishment (i.e. it’s not “ok”). But I do not think that an additional suspension is warranted. I think that a player being recklessly out of position forfeits additional protections. Having your head forward going behind the net is pretty fundamental. I’ve seen alot of guys get a hit from behind penalty in the neutral zone where they intentionally show their numbers to the oncoming defender. I don’t like it. I think more guys are getting hurt by trying to draw penalties and not protecting themselves through poor fundamentals.
This is from the language they changed for this year. If they follow this to the letter it doesn’t matter if the player who got hit left himself vulnerable.
“Players will now face a minor penalty for any hit that involves primary contact to the head and shots that target an opponent’s head….This ban, effective immediately, applies to hits anywhere on the ice and from any direction”
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, so the rules say targeted or primary head contact is a minor. I am in no way against that. I still say I think the hit only warranted an in game penalty (and I think a single was fine, not a double minor for charging plus headshot). No suspension is warranted, as the blindside hit to the head happened because Ericsson was looking backwards.
Take what Shanahan said in regards to Ovechkin’s suspension:
"The moment Ovechkin launches himself in the air prior to the hit," Shanahan said, "he becomes responsible for any contact to the head."
The responsibility is not on Ericsson, it’s on Rinaldo.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
But Rinaldo didn’t launch.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
That part is debatable, since there isn’t a good angle proving this true or false.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
So then we assume how we choose???
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
The hitter is responsible for contact with the head, is the point of that quote.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
He didn’t hit in the head or jump into the hit.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Brendan Shanahan disagrees with both points.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
He’s an ex-friggin Red Wing. I call shenanigans on this ruling!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Shanahan may say that’s his responsibility. If you’re just pragmatically saying what will happen, ok, that’s possible. It looks like he left his feet, although I’ve seen similar hops not called. I thought that was borderline and within a referee’s discretion to call that or not, hence no complaint on the penalty.
My argument is what should happen. I disagree that Rinaldo is completely responsible. Ericsson has a responsibility to protect himself. I did not think there was a clear intent to hit the head, I think the severity of the hit was compounded by Ericsson looking backwards, and the leaving his feet is not obvious (certainly not on the same scale as Ovechkin).
Then your argument is with the NHL. There’s this whole “don’t hit a defenseless player” kick going around in professional sports.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
I’m tired of defenseless players playing the victim!
by mattsotheran on Feb 14, 2012 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
You’re right, I didn’t have my eye on the puck there. I was thinking suspensions and it was about on-ice penalties. And i remember there have been rulings this year in which Shanahan has gone to lengths to talk about the responsibility of the guy who got hit. Given that, the only way he would get suspended is if he wants to nail Rinaldo for targeting heads repeatedly.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
or as Geoff says above, if he rules that he left his feet
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a lot of stuff in the rules about letting a guy off the hook if the person being hit put himself in a bad position right as he got hit. That’s not what happened here though; he was in a bad position the whole time.
I haven’t watched enough of the videos to know whether Shanahan’s giving leeway to guys making hits on players who aren’t doing enough to get themselves out of the vulnerable position, but the rulebook says in several places that the onus is on the guy making the hit in that situation.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I’ve watched a half dozen maybe and my memory backs up what you are saying – Shanahan’s explanations have more to do with what happens immediately before contact.
I think I’ve changed my reasoning on this one four times in the last half hour, so it’s been a good day.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t matter. Haven’t you learned yet? As Travis mentions, it would’ve been a great hit if Rinaldo stays down.
The responsibility is on the player to keep his head up and be aware, yes. But it’s the checking player’s responsibility to not drill the other’s head.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Clean! He doesn’t leave his feet, it’s within 3 seconds and 3 strides. And fuck those guys because Kronwell hunts every game and doesn’t get penalties cause he plays for the Wings.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Feb 13, 2012 11:33 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Three seconds and three strides aren’t rules, you know. The standard is now basically “in the referee’s opinion, was this too violent a hit and/or did he leave his feet?”
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Wow I am showing my age and experience. In my day it was always 3 strides or 3 seconds after a pass or a shot you could check a guy. And if you count it out it is a second or less after he admires his reverse pass El Guano hits him. He doesn’t seem to leave his feet within a stride before the hit like Ovechkin likes to do. I think its a reputation call. If Read did this it would have been nothing.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
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Because Read wouldn’ve stayed on his feet.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I just don’t see the jump? His feet are about 2" off the ice after the hit.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I dont see it either. The hearing can only be about what could look like head contact, but it seems to be he is aiming for the upper torso
by Anders Jensen on Feb 13, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
smarter guys are aloud more leeway with the whole leaving your feet chestnut
by fitzy first on Feb 13, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
His feet definitely leave the ice. I don’t know if it was a “jump” or momentum, but it happened.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I always thought it was a 3 stride rule too.
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by KreiderDesigns on Feb 13, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Nope, not a rule. Just a popular interpretation, but each official is different and sees it differently.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I don’t think this is a “in my day” rule. That may have been the prevailing interpretation, but officials don’t have time to count seconds or strides before every hit, so I doubt that was the actual rule.
These rules are written to be interpreted each time they come up and each hit or infraction will be determined on its own. That’s where the human element comes into the game. The official decided to call it (based on reputation, possibly), but I don’t think it warrants any supplemental discipline.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Rule I am not sure, but I was definitely coached that you had 3 seconds and 3 strides to hit an opponent. And we hit in Pee Wee in my day.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Just think about that though: 3 seconds is a long time to be vulnerable to a check. Especially in this faster, stronger NHL.
We hit in Pee Wee in my day too. Nine years ago.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
No way! They stopped hitting in peewee a long time ago. You were a pee wee 9 years ago. What are you 20?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Around here?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
USA only changed hitting in Peewee this year.
Fall of 2011 went from 12U to 14U.
I think it’s a bad move. We need to get kids used to having concussions as early as possible, otherwise how are they going to hold up in the NHL?
/srcsm
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Really? Because I coached Batam in the early 90’s and guys were learning to hit still. But I have been wrong in the past.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
The link I gave says this:
When I signed my first contract with the NHL in 1973 the distance traveled relative to "charging" was spelled out as anything beyond "3 strides". Since, as you pointed out, the player has to skate to get there (distance traveled) the standard evolved to allow the player to make a solid body check through a reasonable distance traveled so long as he glided the last few feet prior to contact. We permitted players to skate hard for 15-20 feet to deliver a body check as long as they didn’t continue to "run" (stride) those last few feet.
So there was a three stride rule spelled out, which was later changed (by the refs or the rulebook, I’m not sure) to a rule saying your last few feet had to be gliding. And then post-lockout, we had another change:
the referees at the time were encouraged not to restrict or penalize players for what were deemed to be "good hockey hits" (that was the first time I heard it). This included hits with a distance travelled that exceeded previous standards.
So it’s not surprising that there’s confusion, given that the rules have repeatedly changed to replace hard guidelines with discretion (although the bright-line rule about leaving your feet remains) and that these changes haven’t been well-publicized.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I don’t read links! Block quote everything for me from now on!
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I was concerned about fair use, but hopefully I pulled enough to illustrate the changes without crossing the line where there would no longer be a reason to read the original.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Absolutely does not jump into him and even turns to his side for the hit. He will get 3 games cause he is El Guano Patso.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
The TV airheads waxed about Zac being a hunter, etc. What may have magnified things was Ericsson’s glove spinning to the ice. Seeing it fly off, I worried that it may have been the helmet, still strapped to Ericsson’s chin. Occasional missteps aside, Zac sets an invaluable tone for us, and he can actually play hockey.
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 13, 2012 11:56 AM EST reply actions
Yeah that fucking weasel Engbloom said Philadelphia Flowers at least 3 times that punk bitch.
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DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Leaving the feet was a result of turning into the hit, in my opinion. I don’t think he leaves his feet to initiate contact. I still stand by my point of it being a penalty but I don’t think it warrants suspension. Contact with head….well it really comes down to Shanahan’s ruling. I am interested in his take on the matter, as a disciplinary explanation on a hit like this may help distinguish what is allowed to slide and what isn’t.
Jagr shoots, Jagr scores!!!!!!
Frankly, I think the penalty could have been called or not. Borderline call either way. That said, I’m not furious it was called. But I don’t think it warrants a suspension.
by mattsotheran on Feb 13, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
In the angle shown at about ~22 seconds, it looks like he leaves the ice before the hit. But he’s far away, so it’s hard to tell. In the closer shot shown just before that, he enters the frame too late and too fast to tell if he’s on the ice or airborne. So, I have no idea.
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I tried to freeze it on the youtube vid to get a good look, and it looks like when he begins to make contact with Ericsson, Rinaldo’s got one skate on the ice. So I think he clearly went high, and deserved the charging minor. Whether there’s any more punishment will probably hinge on how well he makes his case to Shanny.
Sooo…. Kronwall hit Briere the same exact way, left his feet and all. No penalty. Sup?
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
It wasn’t late, it wasn’t blindside, and he definitely didn’t hit him in the head.
If he left his feet, it probably should have been charging. But it’s nowhere near as bad.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I disagree with just about everything you said, outside of the lateness. He definitely left his feet. Take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_sxJ4Z—Y
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
That hit is not blindside, it’s absolutely not late – Briere was carrying the puck and never passed it – and it’s debatable if he left his feet, as his left foot at minimum appears to stay on the ice at the point of contact.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Freeze it at :53. Both feet clearly off the ice… not even close
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
That angle is nice since you have no way of seeing where contact is made.
If you freeze it at :48, you see his left foot on the ice and his right foot sliding up Briere’s leg.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 13, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree with just about everything you said, outside of the lateness.
So you think Kronwall’s hit was blindside and with his head?
Kronwall must be pretty darn athletic to be able to hit a guy in the head, from behind, with his butt.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
He launched his back right up into Briere’s upper trunk, and Briere never saw him, which I assume makes it “blind-side”
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
Look out of everything I’ve read on these threads I’m probably the Flyers fan that hates Briere the most, so I obviously don’t need to go crazy arguing that that hit was illegal. But if you watch the video Kronwall’s clearly in the air, launching himself into Briere. They shouldn’t let Shanahan call plays involved with the Red Wings, IMO
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
I don't see it
But if you watch the video Kronwall’s clearly in the air, launching himself into Briere.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Both of these are frozen right before he leaves his feet. If you click on the link I provided above, and pause it right at :53, you can see both feet off the ground as he is making contact…not quite sure how to freeze/take a pic/upload it on here though
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
Is “upper trunk” a synonym for head?
Briere not seeing him doesn’t make it the blind side. He was directly in the line Briere was skating.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Head is immediately above upper trunk, etc, it was a blow to Danny’s upper half. How was Rinaldo not directly in the line Ericcson was skating?
If I started playing ice hockey right now, I could be better than Jody Shelley in 2 weeks
Because Rinaldo moved into Ericsson’s line of skating. Kronwall was already there. He’s got as much right to the ice as Briere does.
by mattsotheran on Feb 14, 2012 8:56 AM EST up reply actions
In my NHL, the one I share with Don Cherry and Mike Milbury, neither of these incidents are even penalties. The three of you must be really bored this evening. Screen shots Eric, Really????
//this is all sarcasm//
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Screen shots are way better than “watch the video and try to freeze it at 48 seconds so you can see what I’m seeing.”
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Suspended 2 games. Just saw on Flyers FB feed.
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Thank goodness Shanahan did not decide to punish the Flyers.
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I’m struck by how many times a discussion about a hit ends up with people having opposite versions of what happened. I don’t mean interpretation of whether it was a penalty or suspendable, etc. Just observation. It’s a testament either to how fast and dynamic hockey is or how much people want to see different things.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 13, 2012 8:53 PM EST reply actions
Dirty
He leaves his feet to hit him Shanny has double standard.
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by Fr. Orange and Black on Feb 14, 2012 12:05 AM EST reply actions
Eric posted screen shots showing this isn’t true.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 14, 2012 8:07 AM EST up reply actions
He leaves the ice after the contact is intiated. He doesn’t jump into Briere.
The only reason this can be seen as a high hit is that Briere is 5’6". I had this problem in high school. I was taller than a lot of the other players. I can’t tell you how many “elbowing” infractions I got called for simply because that’s where the opponents head lined up with my body – even when keeping my arms down.
by mattsotheran on Feb 14, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
I had the same problem. I once even had a ref stop me at intermission and thank me for “not killing” a guy who had his head down. Such is life when you’re 8 inches taller than your opposition.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 14, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
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