Flyers vs. Jets preview: Rookie-less defense gets a first look
by Travis Hughes on Feb 21, 2012 12:02 PM EST
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PrintThe Winnipeg Jets can SWEEP THE SEASON SERIES with a win tonight against the Flyers at MTS Centre. That is just... absurd. We all remember the first game back in October, the crazy 9-8 loss at the WFC. Then, in the second meeting, the Jets jumped out to a huge lead before the Flyers clawed their way back in and lost 6-4. In the third meeting, the Flyers lost in a shootout.
So, that's progress in each meeting right? We should expect a win tonight!
7 p.m. tonight at MTS Centre in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
TV: CSN Philly, TSN Jets | Radio: 94 WIP [feed]
Natural Rivals Of The Florida Panthers: Arctic Ice Hockey
Ah, if only it were that easy. Tonight's game will certainly be interesting for one big reason: the new-look defense. It's one thing to insert Nicklas Grossman in the mix for a game, but suddenly, the Flyers have two huge defensemen on the blueline in Grossman and Pavel Kubina, and this'll be the first test for these guys.
Marc-Andre Bourdon has been returned to the minors, and with Erik Gustafsson back in Adirondack as well, the Flyers suddenly have zero rookies on the blueline.
Here's what we're expecting the defense to look like tonight:
Timonen - Coburn
Carle - Kubina
Grossman - Meszaros
Lilja
I'm not going to predict what's going to happen, but, well, it's a whole lot different back there than it was a week ago, that's for sure. And it's even more fun that Winnipeg happens to be firing on all cylinders offensively lately. Via Arctic Ice Hockey:
The offensive woes of the Jets seem to be a distant memory as the Jets have put up 4 goals or more in 3 straight wins. I don't think it's a coincidence that the new second line is producing in a good way. In 4 games together they've put up a stat line of 6 goals and 8 assists for 14 points, while mustering 27 shots on goal and posting a +12 rating. Not too shabby for a couple of kids and a guy who makes 700k.
That second line is made up of Evander Kane, Kyle Wellwood and Alex Burmistrov, and the Flyers would be wise to try and stop them tonight. The Jets power play has been struggling for much of the season, so hopefully the recent PK woes that have faced the Flyers will vanish for at least one night.
No idea who'll be in goal tonight, but that'll be an interesting decision. Both goalies have had poor games against Winnipeg this season, but Ilya Bryzgalov wasn't bad in that shootout loss to the Jets.
We all know how much better the Flyers play on the road as opposed to at home, and this game in Winnipeg is the first of a lengthy West Coast trip. Maybe this is what they need more than anything -- time away from home, a long road trip, with their team assembled as it'll be come playoff time. The struggles have gone on long enough. It's time to kick it into gear again, starting tonight in Winnipeg.
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Don’t suck.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
by hintzy64 on Feb 21, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Maybe
They get energize by the right people booing them for once.
-bob
by Rrainone on Feb 21, 2012 12:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Call me optimistic...
…but I’m expecting a very good showing from the boys this evening. There’s too much pride in the room (o, d, and at GT) to come off flat after not being able to hold the lead Saturday. Also think Homer coming out and seeming content will ease the tension for everyone.
Head Writer, Phans With Batteries
I guess if I have to be named after a drunk driver, being named Pelle isn't so bad.
by Pronger? I don't even know her! on Feb 21, 2012 12:45 PM EST reply actions
Hoping for a W tonight. But based on the way our games vs. this franchise have gone over the past season and a half, I’m gonna have a bottle of Clorox on ice before the game starts
by Clutterbuck4MVP on Feb 21, 2012 12:46 PM EST reply actions
Eager to see the new Dmen
And how they integrate. Over the rest of the season, hoping these guys can take serious minutes from Timonen. The warrior is showing sings of the cumulative small dents and dings that happen over the season (and career).
If the D is good enough that Timo can log about 20 minutes and no more each night, that may help his condition in the post-season.
Ben Eager?
How long?
"Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing." -Al Bundy
HaHa! He’ll only see them briefly, before they flatten him. Or was it other way ’round?
by Georgia_Flyer on Feb 21, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Really excited to see our defense tonight, especially given the problems the Jets have given us in the past few games against them. Adding Grossman and Kubina makes our defense literally almost a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than it was a few weeks ago. Hopefully the size and strength added shows on the ice.
Is there anyone else skeptical about the idea that what the Flyers’ team defense needed most was increased size and bulk on the blueline?
Nastiness is good. Quality minutes are good. Porch-clearing is good, but better to keep it from getting crowded in the first place. I haven’t watched these guys enough to know whether they’re good at erasing turnovers and poor positional/transitional play by the forwards, which I think is a key asset for our D.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 21, 2012 1:37 PM EST reply actions
Agreed.
I missed Saturday’s game so I’m curious to see how the new guys look. It’s really hard to tell from the highlights how the plays developed. I think it will take a few games to really have a sense for how these guys play in and out.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
grossman looked good positionally in his first game , he did his job and covered the pass in the 2 on one
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Grossman and Kubina are bigger, stronger, have more experience, play smarter, have better positioning, and play a more physical and defensive game than our defense did before we got them. They also block way more shots and get way more hits than Bourdon and Gus did. Everyone should be excited about this.
And some of our D-rooks acquired invaluable experience while they tended the store. Lots to like about how this unfolded.
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Completely agree. Like that the two got to see some action.
by mattsotheran on Feb 21, 2012 2:19 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
They’re not Sutter/Schenn, but they’re experienced and they happen to be big. We don’t know what to expect, but then neither do the teams on this road trip. I’m still amazed that Homer pulled this off without any dilutions or deletions. As he settles into his chair to watch these games, he’ll be leaning forward (just like us) curious to see how all of this gels on the ice.
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Whenever I’m not pacing in front of the tv I always watch “Sega Style” on the couch.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
"Suck it, Phaneuf. WOOOO!"
Sega Style?
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
by PyropenguinX on Feb 21, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Edge of the couch. Couldn’t find a good picture to explain.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
"Suck it, Phaneuf. WOOOO!"
I know exactly what you mean.
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
by PyropenguinX on Feb 21, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I’m still amazed that Homer pulled this off without any dilutions or deletions.
I don’t know why anyone is amazed Paul Holmgren added pieces at the deadline without removing anything from the roster. His last three years worth of deadline deals:
1st + 3rd for Versteeg; OKT + 5th for Leino; Picard + 2nd for Prospal; Vandermeer for 3rd; 3rd for Modry
Those are a bunch of trades bring in guys who can help immediately while losing draft picks or #7 (a.k.a. really crappy defensemen)
This isn’t surprising or amazing, it’s what Homer does.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inqflyersreport/Bryz-injured-at-practice.html
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
glove hand wasnt used to it
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
by reaper1221 on Feb 21, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully he actually is ok and not going to force it vs Winnipeg tonight.
Thanks a lot Select-A-Seat! Now I'm in 122!
"Some might give head coach Dave Tippett and general manager Don Maloney plenty of credit for guiding the Coyotes to two straight playoff berths amid franchise foibles – and they deserve much of it – but Bryzgalov was far and away the team’s most valuable player." - NBC Sports
by Flyers_Section_121 on Feb 21, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Guess we know who’s staring tonight… I hope.
by mattsotheran on Feb 21, 2012 2:21 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
staring
As in watching the puck go by him?
Uh Oh.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
So Lavi hired someone to “Tonya Harding” his ass to put him on LTIR, huh? If he keeps playing like shit it may be the only way to eat the contract.
Suck it Phaneuf!
by SkookFlyerfan on Feb 21, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No matter how new Grossman and Kubina are they’re still veterans and are better players than Gus and Boudron, they aren’t going to turn the puck over as much, aren’t going to make as many mental errors, and are going to be more of the porch clearing presence we need in front of the net to help the goalies make saves. I can’t see how the additions of Gross and Kubs could be anything less than a big improvement. These aren’t Liljas we’re taking about here.
Definitely. Here’s to clean passes, good positioning and clearing the puck away from the crease instead of dumping it right out in front.
by adlib19 on Feb 21, 2012 2:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I can’t see how the additions of Gross and Kubs could be anything less than a big improvement. These aren’t Liljas we’re taking about here.
Kubina has a -8.4 CorsiRel on a pretty crappy Lightning team. He made them worse. Sure, he was going against second/third line opposition, but he wasn’t pushing the play forwards or outshooting the opposition.
Bourdon has a -5.1 CorsiRel against third line opposition, but he pushed the play forward with a positive zone finish.
Is Kubina better than Andreas Lilja? Probably, but it’s quite easy to see how Pavel Kubina will be a marginal improvement at best upon Erik Gustafsson and Marc-Andre Bourdon if you just look for it.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
who was kubina’s partner, bad player dragging him down?
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Erik Brewer and Brett Clark, the other two worst defensemen on the team. Kubina was no better than them.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
did they drag him down or was it equal suckage….not sure how to interpret stats
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Until there is a with you/without you script that you can see how the player did together and separate, it’s really tough to figure out who was pulling who down. We had one a couple years ago, Eric made one for the Flyers last year, but this year I haven’t found one.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
not willing to do the heavy lifting and make one i see
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Aren’t Kubina’s stats worthy of an asterisk, given his team’s reliance on the trap?
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
In what way? I’d say his blocked shots and hits more likely to be inflated due to his team playing a style of hockey that is dependent upon being in your own zone, and even Corsi would look worse when compared across the league.
But when you’re comparing him to his teammates – as CorsiRel and zone starts do – I’m not sure why he’s worthy of an asterisk when he’s indistinguishable from Tampa’s three worst defensemen.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Three worst isn’t fact. They certainly appear to be the three worst to me, but it’s certainly debatable.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Kubina’s also 6’4" and 258 lbs. He has 13 years NHL experience with 382 points in 953 games. This season in 52 games he has 11 points (0.21 PPG), 95 hits (1.83 hits per game), and 100 blocked shots (1.92 BkPG).
Gus is 5’10" and 180 lbs (how does THAT slow Lucic in front?). He has a total of 21 games NHL experience. This season he has 3 points in 18 games (0.16 PPG), 5 hits (0.27 hits per game), and 20 blocked shots (1.11 BkPG).
MAB is 6’0" and 206 lbs. He has 39 games of NHL experience, all this season. To date he also had, in those 39 games, 4 points (0.10 PPG), 64 hits (1.64 hits per game), and 65 blocks (1.67 BkPG).
Care to point out which one is the improvement, Geoff??? You’re just being contrarian. Kubina is an OBVIOUS upgrade over either of the two kids.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
So you want to play Gus against Lucic? Or you want to play Kubina against Lucic? Either way, the Flyers lose.
You want to compare hits and blocked shots for guys on a trap team who get stuck in their own end without the puck to guys on an aggressive team that isn’t in their own end? Have fun, I’ll focus on things that aren’t inflated due to coaching style.
You want scoring out of your third pairing defenders? I thought Kubina and Grossman were here to play defense, not put points on the board. I don’t care about points.
I’m not being a contrarian at all, Pavel Kubina is a not-good defenseman. And as a #6 dman, even if he was an improvement, you’re talking about the lowest guy on the pecking order. How much of a difference did Lukas Krajicek have over Danny Syvret in 10?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want to play either against Lucic – but if you watched the game with your eyes rather than trying to back out from the CorsiRel numbers, you’d know that when you’re the away team you don’t always get to choose.
And I’m sorry you don’t like my stats. But they certainly show how Kubina (and if you want to look at his numbers on other previous teams measure up, knock your socks off … in 2007 with Toronto Kubina had 121 hits and 166 blocks in 72 games) is measureably better – which is what you asked.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Look, if you have a problem with the fact that I watch the game with my nose and not my eyes, that’s discrimination and I don’t need that.
I don’t like your stats, but I can play the game with them at least. In 2007 with Detroit Andreas Lilja had 133 hits and 114 blocks in 79 games. Just as good as Kubina, so why isn’t Lilja good enough?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
lija is older?age takes its toll
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Yeah, the point is that 4 years ago doesn’t mean anything when you’re talking about third pairing guys who are 36 and 34.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
2 years is a big deiiference on d though, kimmo now kimmo 2 years ago,pronger now pronger 2 years agao(i know that one is unfair)
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
haha, just like 4 years is a huge difference. Think about comparing Sean O`Donnell in 2007 to today. Not even close to the same player.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
although kubina had 52 more blocks that season
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Yeah, Toronto was also a much worse team than Detroit. Toronto finished 9th in the league in blocks that year, Detroit was 30th.
Lilja led his team that year by a large margin. Take into account team efffects and the gap is pretty much non existant.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, first fo all changing the subject doesn’t refute my argument. Comparing Kubina to Gus and MAB, and comparing Kubina to Lilja, is two completely different things and not where I was going. But …
Kubina
2008 – 91 hits, 133 blocks with Toronto.
2009 – 94 hits, 111 blocks with Altanta.
2010 – 90 hits, 115 blocks with Tampa.
Lilja
2008 – 95 hits, 92 blocks with Detroit.
2009 – 38 hits, 21 blocks with Detroit.
2010 – 92 hits, 113 blocks with Anaheim.
So they both seem similar, right? (Considering that Lilja only played thirty-odd games in 09). Perhaps this is true. So what other measures do we have … oh, right. Points. So if we agree that the two are equal in hits and blocks, we’ll look at other factors like points that add value to a defenceman.
Lilja – 84 career points in 563 games (0.15 PPG)
Kubina – 382 points in 953 career games (0.40 PPG)
So in terms of experience, Kubie is better than Gus and MAB, as well as hits and blocks. In terms of points (and I’d wager puck-movement) Kubie is better than Lilja. Next comparison you’d like to try to make???
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
isare two completely different things
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
As Wellwood the Large would say, Kubie or not Kubie, that is the question….
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not changing your argument, since I wasn’t comparing Kubina to MAB and Gus only. I was comparing Kubina to the available #6 dmen the Flyers have, which includes Lilja.
Further, the fact that you went as far back as 2007 to show how awesome Kubina is at ridiculous counting stats that are terribly biased by arena scorers and coaching styles, I figured I’d join in on the fun and point out how awesome Andreas Lilja is at ridiculous counting stats that are terribly biased by arena scorers and coaching styles.
Hope you had fun going through and showing how similar the two are at blocking shots and hitting people, and that the reason you’re acquiring Pavel Kubina as a #6 defenseman to score points.
Here I thought the reason you needed to upgrade Gus and Bourdon is that the team needed to prevent goals against, not score them.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Alright, Detweiler. Explain away how Kubina had a CorsiRel of +6.2 in 2010 then, on the same Tampa team.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
STAT WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
He was 6th on the team in CorsiRelQoC and 3rd on the team in zone starts.
He was put on the third pairing in the offensive zone against third/fourth line opposition and managed to play as good as Randy Jones.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
So you’re saying he’s better than Rob Scuderi…
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds to me like Tampa over-used their third paring then, considering he was getting the third-most time-on-ice for the team … how does your #5 or #6 defenceman get third-most ice time???
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
And yes – that holds true for even strength time separated out.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Not in 5-on-5 situations it doesn’t.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Esplain.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
See that URL that says “season=20112012”?
Kubina was 4th in 10-11, a mere 9 seconds per game ahead of 5th.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Ah – you’re right. But ok, that still means they used him almost like a second-pairing defenceman. I’ll fix the link.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
But there isn’t much variance in TOI at all among their defenders in 2010. Their top guy only got 22 minutes per game (Brewer), and then Kubina is 4th at a shade over 19 minutes. That’s pretty balanced. So either a) the coach figured they all sucked, so play ‘em equally or b) they’re all pretty good, so play ’em all equally. No?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Fourth most. Thank you Mr. Detweiler. Because that really changes my point …
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
And I would also like for you to explain how Corsi is so devoid of ‘counting’, when it’s really just shot differentials. The only true way of telling if a shot is on net is when it scores or not (Fenwick, right?) … but if it misses the net it isn’t a shot? Or is it? Was it a pass or a dump-in? And if it gets blocked by a player (like Kubina, who seems to do that a lot) doesn’t that affect their Corsi numbers?
Your stats are not better than my stats, sir. And when using flawed stats to compare two players – but using the same equally flawed measurement for both – the comparison is still valid.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Corsi doesn’t matter if a shot is on net when it scores or not, misses the net or not, or blocked or not. Any shot attempt is a Corsi event. So that whole paragraph resulted in one truely difficult scenario in determining which one was a shot attempt: A pass or a dump-in.
But for the non-snarky answer, the answer is sample size. You’re determining Kubina’s skill off of 133 shot attempts. Corsi numbers include roughly 2,200 per player per season. It’s a lot less noise in Corsi for that very obvious reason.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Kubina’s CorsiRel is bad this year right? It’s not like he’s got a historically bad CorsiRel…It’s the same deal with Grossman (I wrote a fanpost on Grossman’s CorsiRel in 2010-11)
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Alright. But how DO you determine what’s a shot, what’s a dump, and what’s a pass? Sorry – if you have that uncertainty, I won;t accept your stats because they’re ‘subjective’.
But seriously, on some level you do have to admit they’re all ‘flawed’ in that they rely on human observation. Multiplying that error by 2200 doesn’t remove it.
I am not advocating that we stop using Corsi … but I am saying that if we look at a normalized career that included multiple seasons and multiple teams (as both Kubina and Lilja had in my list) you can still compare the ‘less fancy’ counting stats. The errors are normalized just as they are in Corsi.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Multiplying that error by 2200 doesn’t remove it.
If it’s random error, not systematic error, it will remove the error.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Why would I ever say people watching games with their eyes are flawed? Everything they see is perfect until they try to put it into a number. It’s not the human observation that’s flawed, it’s the translation to numbers.
But most importantly, what PoL said. You aren’t multiplying an error, you’re adding data to remove the noise of the few, removing the error. Individual seasons are what compounds the error, since you are just continuing to count the same errors.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
it’s the translation to numbers
.
So then the counting stats are best and most accurate, rather than going through multiple permutations to get a Relative Corsi number?
Hoist upon thy own petard, Detweiler.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
That’s not how translations work. Once you mess up the dinner, you can’t make it worse by continuing to try and fix it. You can only make it better or leave it as bad as it already was doomed to be.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
If I overcook the burgers, and try to fix them by adding dogshit, I absolutely have made them ‘worse’ (in my own subjective assessment, but anytime you want dogshit burgers, you come on over.)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
This is an excellent metaphor for the entire thread.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Feb 21, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
hahah rec’d
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Even I’ll vote for that.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
And I singularly disagree. Every permutation of ‘massaging’ the stats when there’s not clear-cut causality makes them less and less verifiable, and therefore ‘worse’.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
uhhhh yeah that analogy doesnt really work……. there are alot of things people do when they mess up a dinner to try to fix it when they make it worse..coming from a practicing cook
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
And lastly – sure, the team needed to upgrade the defence. Considering that I have shown that Kubina is an upgrade in some typical defensive measures than MAB and Gus, he should play above them in the depht chart. Then, considering that Kubina has more offense to offer compared to Lilja (who may equal him in physicality, the arguable property the team was lacking), he should start above Lilja.
The essence of your question is: do I feel Lilja should have started before Gus or MAB, because he is more ‘defensive’. I actually don;t have an answer for that; maybe he should have, considering the goals being allowed lately. But once you decide to start a more defensive defenceman, why not get one that is better than the one you already have???
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Lilja is an old defenseman who used to be good but went crap this year (after an injury). That doesn’t mean that all old defensemen who used to be good will have to go crap once the Flyers acquire them.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
are going to be more of the porch clearing presence we need in front of the net to help the goalies make saves.
Ignoring for a second that nobody knows whether or not skaters can drive on-ice save percentages, Lightning goalies had the hardest time making stops with Kubina on the ice than with any other Lightning player. They only managed to stop 0.897 percent of all shots while Kubina was on the ice.
So either skaters can’t help goalies make saves often enough that it appears in a 50 game sample of the goalies’ save percentages or Pavel Kubina actually prevents his goalies from making saves.
One or the other.
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Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Ignoring for a second that nobody knows whether or not skaters can drive on-ice save percentages
Then why is someone quoting those exact same stats?
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Because the person above said “he will help his goalies make saves”.
If you had finished reading the comment, you’d see that I went through the two possibilities. Either skaters CAN drive on-ice save percentages but Kubina isn’t one of them, or skaters CAN’T drive on-ice save percentages and Kubina isn’t one of them.
Thus, Kubina won’t help his goalies make saves, as was suggested.
Clear?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Overheard from Kubina at practice: “Hey, Grossman, how come YOU weren’t geoffed after your trade??”
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha, this is a fair point.
The reason is that it’s a lot easier to defend acquiring a defenseman when you have to play two of Bourdon/Gustafsson/Lilja. I have no problem with saying that’s not a good enough 5/6/7 on this team. I wouldn’t have made that trade, but that’s my general aversion to deadline acquisitions.
It’s a lot harder to defend acquiring a defenseman when you get to pick which one of Bourdon/Gustafsson/Lilja you want to shelter each night. It’s a lot harder to defend spending the assets you did on the 6th defenseman on your team, when you’ve consistently shown that you have multiple #6 dmen in house (Walker and Bartulis on top of the other three) and have gotten #6 defensemen on waivers just last year (Boynton).
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Just chasing after a morsel of good news. Please tell me the data support keeping Lilja over MAB or Gus. Or is it like your comment about TB: the three D men are fungible and equally “challenged.”
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
walker and bartulis both need to clear waivers...right now i didnt see that happening
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Walker has done it numerous times the last year. Bartulis not so much.
Again, I don’t advocate bringing them up through re-entry, but the Flyers continue to do it. So it’s clearly an option, even if it’s a bad option. Like trading a 2nd, 4th, and Kalinski for a #6 defenseman.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
walker did it early, teams might pounce on a free 6 dman right now
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Eh, he’s not free. He costs $850k against the cap next year, $1 mil in salary. And he did clear re-entry post-deadline last year too.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
850K FOR A SERVICABLE 6 dman isnt to bad
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
I only hope someone running an NHL team thinks the same.
But I disagree that Matt Walker is serviceable.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
lol well, we thought lilja was servicable, holmgren cant be the only idiot
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Careful who you include with “we”.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
No. The reason we can’t determine if Kubina helps his goalie makes saves, is that there is no direct causal relationship between the two that you can easily measure. If (hypothetically) his goalie could only make saves on guys shooting from more than 10 feet away, Kubina would be a great defenceman. That means not only is shot quality an issue, but goalie ‘tendencies’ as well as competition quality and defender ‘preferences’ … simply put, there’s no way to determine one way or the other.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
You agree with me that there’s no basis in fact for saying Kubina will “help the goalies make saves.” Cool. So what’s the issue?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 21, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
There’s also no basis for saying he won’t. It is – almost by definition – subjective. That’s my problem.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Grossman and Kubina @ Law
Your Injury Specialists
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
"Suck it, Phaneuf. WOOOO!"
by boknows71 on Feb 21, 2012 2:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Anyone else out there think that acquiring both of these D-men is a sort of tryout for next year, because Homer has already decided not to resign Carle?
Capgeek’s twitter also had something about a temporary cap for next season at something like 68M or 69M, which seems outrageous, but if it’s anything like that, I guess Carle definitely gets signed along with one of these new guys or another UFA or maybe even an RFA.
I cant remember what article, but I think I remember reading Homer was making sounds as if he wanted to sign either one or both of Grossman/Kubina, depending on how things go the rest of this season.
Also, I think Kubina isnt interested in moving around much, with his family. This article seems to indicate he might be willing to stay on the cheap, just to avoid testing the waters.
So I definitely think Homer is considering those possibilities. If he can manage to keep Carl and either Grossman or Kubina, I’d be happy.
Hyka'n it up a notch.
In a way it’s smart, as we already know what we have in Bourdon and Gustafsson, and are probably stuck with Lilja as the #6/#7 for next year. This is a good way to see how the new guys adapt to Lavy’s system and their new teammates. My only concern is that neither work out and we end up going with Bourdon and Gus anyway, while shedding a few draft picks to gauge our own interest.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
If the cap goes up by 4-5 mill the Flyers and Homer will be saved once again and learn nothing, but as a fan would be nice because it would mean we wouldnt have to worry about Homer blowing the team up once again.
by Anders Jensen on Feb 21, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, it’s tough. He’s been burned before by the cap, and doesn’t seem to learn. I really don’t want to lose Carle though.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
not unless we get a get return…if for some reason we moved him at the deadline, he’d command alot
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
And if that’s the final Homer move before the playoffs, what’s the wish list? “Draft picks” just doesn’t sound sexy. I’d rather stay with Carle, the devil we know, and he’s better than the devil we don’t know. (Devil offered in a non-team-specific context.)
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I’d trade him for a 1st with the understanding that he would resign with the Flyers anyway as a FA. He’d be doing us a big favor.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
As Wellwood (the larger one) would say, that’s cake and eating it.
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Haha.
And probably some kind of illegal collusion that the NHL would almost certainly not be ok with.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
didnt prospal do that? we traded for him then he resigned with the team he left for a year right?
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Yea, I think you’re right. Guess it’s doable then.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Wellwood the Larger. I like that.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 21, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
well with carle being damn close to suter stats wise (corsi whatever) we could ask for a similar package which includes a 1st round pick and at least a prospect/young talent. now the most obvious thing would be not to trade with already in temas, we need to trade with bordeline teams as to get a higher spot. like for example winnapeg, anaheim etc. does any1 really see carle staying is the issue
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Isaac said earlier that Wellwood was skating with the scratches, meaning we probably won’t get to see him face off with his older, fatter, less talented (but mostly fatter) brother over on the Winnipeg side.
Rinaldo is back, then! WOOOOOO. So, then…
19-28-93
24-28-68
17-10-21
36-14-27
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 2:54 PM EST reply actions
*24-48-68
Sadly, Claude Giroux is not so awesome to the point where we can double-shift him an entire game.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
You mean we havent found a way to clone him yet? Drat, and I thought we were on to something.
Hyka'n it up a notch.
I think faketpanotch proposed that idea a while back. Not sure why no one has got on it yet.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t able to watch all of last Saturday’s Pens game. Any reason for Voracek on the top line over Jagr? Just curious if anyone knows.
by adlib19 on Feb 21, 2012 3:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that line had been clicking with voracek and jags was clicking with briere
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Sweet, thanks. Looking forward to seeing these slight tweaks in action tonight.
by adlib19 on Feb 21, 2012 4:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fowards only. Given the scale of our new D men, neither slight nor tweak apply.
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the horse touted in The Sting.
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Also, dang. I was hoping to see a Wellwood v Wellwood battle. We’ve been spoiled with all the Schenn v Schenn.
Hyka'n it up a notch.
Can’t wait for Leafs-Flyers in 2 or 3 years when we (hopefully) have Schenn and Kessel vs. Schenn and Kessel.
I agree, though. He seems like he’s been doing well in his limited action this year. But if you’re not gonna play him, send him to Adirondack. He needs playing time and lord only knows they could use him.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
The internet, ladies and gentlemen
Third suggested result when looking up a guy who weighs 181 pounds.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
In what world is 181 lbs fat? I long for the days when my man weighed that little.
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
I dont know how tall her husband is, but 181 isnt that much for the avg male
by Anders Jensen on Feb 21, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
When I was in college, I was between 175-180, and I’m barely taller than Briere and was doing a good amount of exercise. Certainly not pro-level, but more than the average person.
Bob.
by The Dark on Feb 21, 2012 3:39 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
He’s 5’10". He weighs 217 and recently lost 27lbs.
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
Lucky bastard has a bit of height on me, but we’re the same weight.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently a few years ago he was actually fat and now even though he isn’t fat people make fat jokes about him.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Oh. That happens to lots of kids who are formerly fat as well. Like the dude on “New Girl”.
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
Funniest show on Television right now
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
by PyropenguinX on Feb 21, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
NHL Catalogue Just Arrived
And on my page 12, there’s a woman in a NYR long-sleeve tee cuddling with a dude in a Flyers long-sleeve tee.
UNCLEAN!
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
Come on, ya don’t date in division
G, the second coming of Foppa.
Embrace the Jagr.*
by JerseyDriver on Feb 21, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
McKenzie:
TB has traded Steve Downie to Colorado.
Well that’s interesting.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 3:59 PM EST reply actions
Downie to Colorado
Kyle Quincey to Detroit
Detroit’s 1st round pick to Tampa
A three-way trade. Those are always fun.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Ewww … TB lost that one big time. Does Yzerman have a daughter or something???
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
…you think? Downie for a first isn’t that bad a deal, is it?
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 21, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah – it’s a bottom of the round first. And Downie is a pretty damn good player these days, not the guy who accumulated suspensions like fridge magnets in his earlier years.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 21, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Good trade for the wings IMO
by Clutterbuck4MVP on Feb 21, 2012 5:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Warning: HUGE FRIGGIN PICTURE
From PD article
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
"Suck it, Phaneuf. WOOOO!"
Next time...
If you want to shrink it, do this:
<img src="URL GOES HERE" height=NUMBERGOESHERE/>
And for the height number, you can choose anything (but usually somewhere around 250-300’s a good ballpark to make something readable but not huge.
Madly in love with Jaromir Jagr's brilliant smile and epic goal salute.
Sean Couturier and Matt Read for joint Calder Trophy winners!
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun. Definition: Bad-assery on skates
But… Hawking says the universe is expanding??
by Lesion of Doom on Feb 21, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
You can also use percentage instead of an actual number in pixels
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Looks like it's Bryz in net, according to Facebook.
Flyers head coach Peter Laviolette announced that Ilya Bryzgalov will start in net at Winnipeg.
Madly in love with Jaromir Jagr's brilliant smile and epic goal salute.
Sean Couturier and Matt Read for joint Calder Trophy winners!
Ian Laperriere (EE-an luh-PAIR-ee-YAIR), proper noun. Definition: Bad-assery on skates
The hand injury must’ve been considered inconsequential, as it’s not like he needs to use it anyway.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
It’s all part of a plan to reignite the fanbase’s trust in him:
1. Announce minor/non-existent injury
2. Start him anyway
3. If he succeeds ?
4. Everyone loves Bryz again (Profit)
by hebrew hammer on Feb 21, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
At least he stopped something!
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Feb 21, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
wrong website?
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 21, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
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