Wednesday Morning Fly By: Shut Out, Shoot Out, Shut Up, Sit Down
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 6:00 AM EST
in Morning Fly By
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers-related news and notes...
- Recaps from last night: [BSH] [SB Nation Philly] [Lighthouse Hockey] [CSNPhilly] [Daily News] [Inquirer] [delcotimes.com] [the700level] [Flyers Faithful] [The Checking Line] [Bill Meltzer]
- Kimmo Timonen said he's "happy with the effort" and that "the effort was there" for the full 65 minutes. I'm waiting for the shouts of "doesn't care about losing" to come: [CSNPhilly]
- James van Riemsdyk spoke about his concussion and his recovery: [CSNPhilly] [Daily News] [delcotimes.com]
- Rich Hoffman says Danny Briere looked good last night, but it's how he feels today that matters: [Daily News]
- Ever hear of laces bite? Admittedly, I hadn't. It's apparently a problem for Marc-Andre Bourdon: [Daily News]
- Debating the Flyers' likely moves at the upcoming deadline: [Flyers Faithful]
- A nice story on what Kevin Marshall brings to the Bears: [PennLive.com]
- Looking at the most expensive bluelines and their teams' goals against average. Chris Pronger makes the Flyers look bad: [Puck Daddy]
- Frans Nielsen signed a four year, $11 million extension with the Islanders: [Lighthouse Hockey] [Puck Daddy]
- An interesting idea here: looking at the 80 players who deviated most from their average ice time in last night's games: [NHL Ice Time]
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Lace bite sucks! You can’t even add padding or tape to help. It’s undoubtedly painful but I believe his recent struggles are more between his ears then his feet.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
by MJDII on Feb 8, 2012 6:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Lace bite sucks. Personally, I can’t lace my skates too tight, unlike some players who barely put laces through the eyelets of their skates. I’ve felt that pain far too many times. I just can’t skate strong unless the boot is welded to my foot.
If I remember correctly, Renberg used to get lace bite frequently.
"Ocean: A body of water covering 2/3 of a world MADE for man....who has no gills."
Do you wear socks? I found not wearing socks aides in the weld process as my feet would sweat.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I get this weird sensation like 15 minutes in and it lasts for about 5 of just immense pain in my entire foot and ankles. Then it goes away and I can skate forever. I wonder if it’s at all related or if I just don’t skate enough
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
Fellow goalies
Any of you ever have lace bite? I have not, nor know any goalie who has.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Aren’t goalie skates at or below the ankle?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
yes. ankle height. that must be it.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Are your skates to narrow? Or should I ask if you have wide feet. This used to happen to me every time I laced up, but what I found helped was lacing the lower portion of my skates separately from the upper portion. In other words two sets of laces. I would keep the bottoms snug and tops tight as all hell and it helped tremendously.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
nothing about us sucking hard lately. Is deflection?
by sophiejo on Feb 8, 2012 7:32 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Or a star on how many sticks broke last night
by sophiejo on Feb 8, 2012 7:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
What’s the name of the book-reading club that Pam, Oscar and Toby form during their lunch hour at Dunder Mifflin?
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 7:59 AM EST reply actions
I might re-create that here and have our own exclusive group
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
“did she put up a fight?”
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That was honestly the last place I thought you would go with that, but it made me lol nonetheless.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Grease brightens up everyone’s morning
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
glad I could provide some grease in the morning
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
If I could rec on the Droid app, this would be massively rec’d
Bob.
by The Dark on Feb 8, 2012 12:36 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I think I’m glad that I missed the game last night. When was the last Flyers game last time that ended 0-0 going into the shootout? Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven’t looked through the game threads.
www.southpawcurve.blogspot.com - check out my baseball blog!!
It’s in one of the recaps, something about Calgary and Niittymaki.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
Never Again....
I wonder if Snider utters this to himself when he signs some of the players checks. Lol
And I don’t care if it’s technically a shutout, if you loose the game in a shootout it still sucks.
My teams are the Flyers, Phillies and the Steelers. Deal with it.
I made the mistake of attending last night’s game. Wow. That was one of the saddest hockey games I’ve ever been to. Gag.
"Jagr doesn’t have moves. He has grizzled old man power. He bends reality to his will with a scowl alone." - BannedStreetBully
Opposing Ilya Bryzgalov as Philadelphia Flyers' goalie since June 23, 2011.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
Timonen just doesn’t care about losing! He’s just like JvR! We need a leader with more of a competitive edge!
Richards and Carter infected him with cancer!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
I am with Kimmo I don’t care about losing in a shootout. I still consider it a tie.
Nodl 12G 127GP, Talbot 10G 44GP
I don’t care about losing a shootout either, but I do care about other teams getting points from shootouts.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 8, 2012 8:56 AM EST up reply actions
We have 5 shootout losses so far… That’s 5 points we don’t have. We could be first in the East if we had those…
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
with 2 games in hand, mind you
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
No, NYR and BOS have the games-in-hand over us. But we still have games-in-hand over PIT, TOR, OTT, WPG, MTL, and CAR. As always, the schedule is all over the place. You should never end up with a 6-game discrepancy like we currently have, that’s ridiculous.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Has SBNation created an app that serves as a friend’s list and highlights my friend’s comments in blog threads so i can just read a certain color’s comments?
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 8:51 AM EST reply actions
or that reads the comments and deletes those that talk about:
a. how we should trade a guy with a NMC
b. how Holmgren should be able to trade a guy straight up for someone clearly twice his value
c. shootouts
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
well I’m not cool with deleting. but sort of a scanner
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2012 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t forget capgeek rosters (which I love, but most people hate)!
by hebrew hammer on Feb 8, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
So when people accuse us of having cliques, you don’t read the complaint because it didn’t come from a friend? :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
by hintzy64 on Feb 8, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why does the puck daddy article include Pronger when he is not even playing, consider how big a differences there is between Bourdon and Pronger.
The article also says that a team should spend a lot of money on both defense and a goalie even though the chart would indicate the opposite — Vancouver is the only team that has a high payroll for defense, goalie and is in the top 10 in GAA. I must be missing something.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
Had it just said spend high on goalie it would make sense (looking at the best goalies, they are in general paid top money).
by Anders Jensen on Feb 8, 2012 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
And yet spending high on a goalie hasn’t worked out for Carolina, Calgary, Minnesota, Buffalo, Montreal, etc.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure if serious….only reason those teams are even relevant is their goaltending so id say money worth it……..did another joke die by my hands?
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
by reaper1221 on Feb 8, 2012 9:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Actaully talked about…I mean with out those teams goaltenders they would be columbus…instead besides car and montreal(due to no foward ability) they are 2 or 3 spots out of the playoffs…what would all those teams be without ward,kippy, miller, price respectively?
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
by reaper1221 on Feb 8, 2012 10:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
So those teams are spending an above-average amount of goaltending to get barely-average results on this ice…how exactly is that considered, “working out”?
because irrelevancy loses money…look at columbus
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
So the discussion was about the effect of spending on defense and goaltending, and now its apparently about making money?
So long Goal Posts, it was nice seeing you.
I feel like tiny goalie in humongous net.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
by doubleh on Feb 8, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
no his discussion was about spending mine was about relevency you ask why that mattered so i told you
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Yea I’m pretty sure the whole point of the article and subsequent discussion was spending.
Hence why even you said “money worth it”
like i have reading comprehension skills…we all know i go off on my own tangents constantly
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
But barely-average results on the ice is what makes you irrelevant. The monetary value of the roster doesn’t matter so much to the fans, they want a winning product. If you suck, they lose interest in watching it.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
how much more would buffalo carolina montreal suck without their above average/elite goalies
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Depends on whether they’re just slashing their payroll or using that money to bring in a player who will help the team even more than the goalie does.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
bringing in big name players to a shit team doesnt always help again ask columbus
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Now you’re going in circles.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Yup.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
we already were going in circles
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
If you can drop your above-average goalie, and get a decent one plus a decent (15-20 goals a season) winger … I know which way I’d go. Goodbye Cam Ward, hello Kari Lehtonen and Steve Ott.
Basically, which model seems to work in the modern NHL – one superstar and a bunch of scrubs, or a bunch of decent-to-good players and no superstars? I point you to the playoff teams (beyond the first round) over the last decade and posit that balance is better.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Steve Ott? I hear he’s good at faceoffs.
Also, I agree with the philosophy that balance is better. I dislike building a team around one person. Then it’s not a team, and it has no depth. Too much relies on that one person. It’s one of the many reasons I’m glad Duke never won a championship with JJ Redick. The entire playbook of that team for four years was get the ball to Redick. Their failure (and Maryland’s success in 2002 with a balanced team) helps me validate my philosophy.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
He he, Re-dick. That’s funny, even though you seem to propose that this is some athlete of sorts.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
He’s only 7th in the league in FO% at the moment, yes.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
only reason those teams are even relevant is their goaltending so id say money worth it
I think you’re missing a subtlety here.
Yes, spending a lot of money on a goalie can improve a team. But spending that money elsewhere would improve the team more.
This is like responding to a claim that you can go faster by driving than by walking by pointing to someone who’s walking and saying “the only reason he went anywhere at all is because he walked, so I’d say walking was the way to go.”
Yeah, if we took away the goalie and just cut the team’s budget accordingly, the team would be worse, but if we took away the goalie and gave them a $6M skater — a top defenseman like Timonen or a forward in the Toews-Sedin-Parise range — they’d be better.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
We can agree that all of those teams have bigger problems then just goaltending?
My point was also more to the fact that the top teams in GAA was carried by an expensive goalie and not so much expensive blueline
by Anders Jensen on Feb 8, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
We certainly can, but if you are going to say spending high on goaltending makes sense, well, I have numerous examples where it doesn’t.
Further, the top five teams in GAA include St. Louis ($3.75m starter), L.A. ($1.8m starter), and San Jose ($3.8m starter). In the top ten, you have Detroit ($2.25m starter) and Phoenix ($2m starter).
There’s half of the top teams in GAA employing a goale making $3.8 million or less. I don’t see that as an “expensive goalie”, since that’s barely more than Claude Giroux’s steal of a deal.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Seen that makes Bryz deal even worse then it already is :(
and you are right I properly got carried away by seen Boston and NYR in the top and assumed wrong that it made sense.
by Anders Jensen on Feb 8, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah but those examples are of rookies who are gonna demand big bucks after this contract or guys who have found their groove and if sustained will ask big bucks next contract
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
by reaper1221 on Feb 8, 2012 12:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Halak, Niemi, Howard, and Smith aren’t really rookies. Howard’s the closest, but you can bet Detroit isn’t throwing him top dollar when his contract comes around.
Quick’s the only one there that probably stands to make some money in FA, and LA will just turn to Bernier if that happens.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 8, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
And nevermind the fact that the teams who are paying Ward ($6.3m), Hiller ($4.5m), Miller ($6.25m), Bryzgalov ($5.67m), Anderson ($3.18m), Huet ($5.625m) , Mason ($2.9m), and Khabibulin ($3.75m) are in the bottom 10 in GAA in the league.
Imagine what those teams would be if they weren’t spending all that money on goalies who aren’t exactly helping their teams prevent goals.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
or guys who have found their groove and if sustained will ask big bucks next contract
And the smart teams will turn down that request, turning to the next round of mid-level goaltenders who will be just fine for millions less.
The point is that the difference between a .920 goalie (Lundqvist, Rinne) and a .914 goalie (average starter) is only 10 goals a year (and not a particularly consistent 10 goals at that). And for that upgrade, you pay $4M/year. Replacing a 4th line forward with a $5M forward provides more of a boost, as does replacing a #6 defenseman with a #1 defenseman.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
That kind of change in spending philosophy (on a league wide basis) is the kind of thing that gets guys like Ville Leino $4M+ contracts. Paying goalies less doesn’t mean there will be more top tier players in the league.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 8, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree, not least of which because the Buffalo Sabres already were paying their goalie $6.25 million.
That’s not a reallocation of spending, that’s just bad spending.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I’m agreeing that it would have worked for the Flyers, if they had changed their philosophy prior to this season. If they had chosen not to sign Bryz they could have spent his cap money on a D-man (or Forward) + backup goalie, and they would probably be a better team.
On a larger (league wide) scale, a general devaluation of goaltender salaries will only lead to larger contracts for other players or a return to high goaltender salaries as teams decide that they would in fact rather spend an extra million or two for allowing 10 fewer goals. I think this is mostly a result of the top 10-12 teams who are spending close to the cap year in and year out. Player’s agents will know they have cap space and will pit these teams against each other for the top tier talent in FA.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 8, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
It makes sense that lower goaltender salaries will lead to higher player salaries, but all I’m saying is that it doesn’t mean forwards will then be overpaid or given horrible contracts. Basically, I agree with you that the simple math says money will be spent, and if it’s not spend in goal, it will be spent on skaters.
But where I disagree is in saying that more money to spend on skaters means those skaters will be overpaid. If you spend wisely in goal, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you will spend unwisely elsewhere. It is possible that teams still spend smartly, they just acquire a higher talent.
i.e. if you save in goal, you don’t have to go throw $4.5 million at Ville Leino. Instead, you can take that $4 million and go get a $4 million top-4 defenseman to be your #5, upgrading on the $800k scrub you had back there previously.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yea I understand all that, I was just countering with the idea that there aren’t 60 #4 defensemen in the league.
This season 15/30 teams are within $3M of the salary cap. Of those teams some have cheap goaltending (TOR – Reimer $1.8M), while others have really expensive goaltending (NYR – Lundqvist $6.8M). Toronto already has 4 D-men making close to $4M a season, New York only has two. This proves your point almost exactly.
The only change for me, is that if the Rangers, Flyers, Canucks, Hurricanes, and Wild all decide to ditch their goaltender and sign a big D-man in his place and cheaper goalie, where does he come from? Of this year’s UFAs on D how many are worth a $4M+ paycheck? Suter and Carle. I’m definitely less knowledgeable about the rest of the leauge than some of the other folks here, but I’m sure there are a few other D studs who could be had as an upgraded #5 D-man instead of a goalie. My original point was that if a team read’s this discussion and the high priced goalies all go away at once (from an amnesty buy-out or something), not every team can just go spend $4M on a #5 D-man and get a good player. They will fight over the likes of Barret Jackman, Dennis Wideman and Brad Stuart and their prices will go up.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 8, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
If the Rangers, Flyers, Canucks, Hurricanes, and Wild all ditch their goaltending, they aren’t all going after a big D man. Beyond that, unless they all Huet their goalies, the goalies are still going to be in the League.
I know what you’re saying in theory, but you’re trying to say that if you don’t overpay ~10 goalies, you’ll overpay ~20 skaters. I just don’t think that’s true. Besides, it’s not like no goalie is worth $4 million. If you offered me Lundqvist at $4 million or Coburn at $4 million, I’ll take Lundqvist.
But if you offered me Bryz at $5.67m or Carle at $3.4m + Simmonds at $1.75m, I know where I’m spending my money.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
No fair using RFA-discount players, but agreed nonetheless.
Perhaps the more fair question is Bryz at 5.67M or Richards at 5.75M.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Is this a poll? I vote for Richie.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
The only choices in between $1.75 and $3.3 mil are RFA. How do I work with that? I don’t.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Steve Mason.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, I agree that it won’t all happen at once, so I was being a little verbose there. I guess I’m trying to generalize something that has too many other factors affecting it. Or maybe I’m just remembering all the Gomez, Redden, Leino deals, and forgetting the ones where UFAs are had at reasonable prices.
by hebrew hammer on Feb 8, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a ‘yet to be measured by numbers but certainly measurable by eye test’ difference between Lundqvist and say, Biron. They may only have been separated by .006% ES SV% last season, and .009% this year, but there’s no one around that will tell you the Rangers would be fine if Lundqvist went down because it’s only ~10 more goals.
It doesn’t justify the serious premium ($875k I think) Lundqvist had over every goalie pre-Rinne contract, but there is a value to those elite guys over the league average guys that GMs are equally awful at identifying (thus Huet, Miller)
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by George E. Ays on Feb 8, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.
I understand when people make a shot quality argument against using save percentage to compare goalies on different teams. But for two goalies on the same team, I don’t get it. Unless you think having Lundqvist on the ice reduces shot totals (perhaps by inspiring the team with confidence), don’t you have to believe that the difference between their contributions is precisely shots per game times the differential of their save percentages?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
1) I think there’s a definite difference in shot distribution between starters and backups. Whether it’s quality of opponent, difference in offensive/defensive gameplanning, or something else, I don’t think they face the shot distribution, with the backup’s generally being easier. That at least can be investigated by looking at scoring chances to SOG ratios. Even then, something is lost as multiple chances from just above the crease area is definitely different that multiple chances from just above the dots, but it’s close enough.
2) I think that given the same distribution of shots, the difference between Lundqvist and Biron (or any backup) is a lot greater than save% says it should be. That’s a lot less provable.
I dunno, it’s gut feeling from having played the position and watching every game (i know, relax). I just don’t think Biron has the skill set to make some of the saves Henrik has made this year. In the imaginary world where Biron was in net instead, I don’t think he’s much higher than .925-.930 at ES, instead of the .935 he’s at now. That’s 15-20 goals already, more by season’s end.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
"Oh, that sensible and sober* Rangers fan guy who is cool, actually" - Dominik, Lighthouse Hockey
*Statement has not been verified nor regressed
by George E. Ays on Feb 8, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
well biron is definitly playing over his talent level and is due for regression then
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
To your first point: if it’s a difference in offensive/defensive gameplanning, then either it affects the shots-per-game rate or it’s already baked into his save percentage. If it’s quality of opponent then maybe, but I’m skeptical that there’s a substantial factor there. Your test is reasonable though — any idea what the results are?
Your second point hinges on your first point. If the two goalies have seen markedly different shot distributions, then their save percentages might not reflect their actual value. If they’ve faced roughly the same shot distributions, then save percentage is interchangeable with goals barring some goalie effect on shot totals.
I have to believe that shot quality effects across teams (playing behind Detroit’s defense instead of Carolina’s) are much larger than shot quality effects within a team based on game-planning or modest SoS differences. And while I recognize that our inability to find shot quality differences between teams may derive more from issues of data quality than shot quality, I still think it’s a lot safer to assume until proven otherwise that goalies on the same team face roughly the same distribution of shots.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
any idea what the results are?
Off hand, no. I’ll see what I can dig up.
Related but somewhat unrelated, I do know Lundqvist has faced a higher percentage of transition scoring chances than Biron this year, and those tend to have a higher conversion rate (esp breakaways and odd man rushes of course), so there’s that.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
"Oh, that sensible and sober* Rangers fan guy who is cool, actually" - Dominik, Lighthouse Hockey
*Statement has not been verified nor regressed
by George E. Ays on Feb 8, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
well with how good lundquist is you cant say there isnt an unquantifiable “in your head” factor
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
I measure it by the “holy shit” factor. I’ve said that more with Lundqvist saves this year than in the 5 previous seasons combined, I think.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
"Oh, that sensible and sober* Rangers fan guy who is cool, actually" - Dominik, Lighthouse Hockey
*Statement has not been verified nor regressed
by George E. Ays on Feb 8, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
This. When Bob is on his game, he’s a “holy shit” goalie for me, has been since his debut appearance. I feel like I’ve seen fewer “holy shit” saves from Bryz, but he certainly does have them. This could also be a result of just which games I get to see and what is chosen in highlights. Unfortunately, neither of them seem to be consistently at that level right now…
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
New stat to track for goalies:
Holy shits/ 60.
by mtitanic on Feb 8, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i think this is the harmonious synthesis between eyes and stats that we’ve been waiting for.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
HSh/60 for short. That way people outside the clique are confused.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
well apparently .920 is elite and doesnt bob have a .919 in his time here…so either he is steve mason or he’s the real deal with still more developing to do
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Bob is .914 for his career. .915 last year, .911 this year.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
really…who the hell was i looking at then
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
He was .919 for this season before last Saturday.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 8, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Or that.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Which brings us back to the topic of how slim the difference is between goaltenders and why they appear to be widely variable.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
That his sv% is affected that much by one game also supports my “too early to tell” conclusion below.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
For what it’s worth, though nothing is perfect, I kind of really like quality start %, if for no other reason because it basically tells you “is the goalie doing his job and keeping his team in the game on a regular basis”, which I feel is something we’d all love to know.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 9, 2012 1:38 AM EST up reply actions
It’s definitely something I like, but I’m not quite ready to say it’s a big improvement.
Also, it’s effing hard to compile yourself.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2012 8:13 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if it’s a big improvement, but it at least addresses the idea that one really bad game can really throw your numbers off.
And is it that hard to calculate? I guess there’s some subjectivity as far as counting relief appearances and such, but using h-r’s game logs it doesn’t seem that hard. If you only count starts and not relief appearances, Bryz is 18/36 = 50% and Bob is 10/17 = 58.8%.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 9, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is that you have to find the league average. Since it isn’t as simple as baseball’s 6+ and </=3, the baseline changes every year.
I calculated Johan Backlund’s quality start percentage a couple of years ago and it took me 3 days. I had to go player by player and get all ~180 goalies’ per game numbers, eliminate their relief appearances, and find what the average AHL starter did.
It was by far the most work I’ve ever done for one post.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 9, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
For the AHL I can imagine it’s a royal pain in the ass. For the NHL, though, it wouldn’t be that bad.
Short version (3 decimal places): go to any goalie’s Yahoo page, under “Goaltender Comparisons” click on SV%, and they have league average right there.
Long version (exact # of decimal places): go to H-R’s play index, use Player Season Finder, filter “2011-12, Goalie, Shots Against >= 1”, then copy the results into an excel table, sum it up, and calculate.
Filtering out relief appearances is annoying, yeah. Yahoo’s game logs tell you if it was a start or not, though, and those copy into an Excel sheet, so that helps.
Again, all of that’s at the NHL level. AHL would be a bitch to calculate without all of that info available.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 9, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't that site full of useless garbage about prospects? (Does anybody else remember that argument?)
I’m afraid to know how many Really Bad Starts we have…
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
By my count
Bryz has 9 in 38 appearances (eight in 36 starts), and the Flyers are 2-7 in those games.
Bob has either 2 or 3 in 19 appearances/17 starts (depending on whether you count his 3-goals-in-20-shots game against Carolina, which comes out to .850 exactly) and the Flyers are 1-2 in those games.
Of course, they share one RBS in that 9-8 game.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 9, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
So depending on whether you use starts or appearances, and whether Bob has 2 or 3 RBS’s, Bryz’s Mean Time Between Really Bad Starts (MTBRBS) is 4.2-4.5 games, and Bob’s is 5.67-9.5. Bob is better. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
ok then my new question is…..if a rookie puts up numbers like that are they likely to get better or do they normally regress/ stay the same
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
This tells me it’s too early to tell. He doesn’t even have 100 starts under his belt, so his past sv% doesn’t have much predictive power yet.
#hopeididthatright
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Damn you for mastering the cool link thingie.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Well ya know, I do what I do when I do what I do.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
anyone shocked a stats guy doesn't know about lace bite? You'd have to play the game not just analyze it...
I feel like even using sarcasm, I have to put in that I’m kidding.
Broad Street Hockey's Reigning Trivia Champion
I recently have learned how to effectively draw in 8 bit. I need Flyers references to make.
I was thinking of doing something Briere’s fist pump and underneath it the move combo for RYU/KEN’s Uppercut….but I don’t know if there are that many fans of Briere that would want that t-shirt.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Nothing? Anybody? Bueller? Bueller? Honda C-RV?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Feb 8, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if there are that many fans of Brierethat would want that t-shirt
Fixed.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
O/T…Ralph Nader sent a letter to bettman to ban fighting all together in hockey to try and reduce concussions. I forget who said it on here I think Eric T was the one who explained it was the sudden stopping of the head and brain still moving that is causing concussions. I seriously don’t think fighting is the cause. in the long run maybe but jody Shelley type guys are “irrelevant” and not many exist today. seems like a weak argument to stop fighting in hockey. thoughts?
by profoundnotions on Feb 8, 2012 1:22 PM EST via Android app reply actions
He also said that players should have to wear seat belts on the bench.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Snark aside (good one, faninchicago!), I think it would have only a very limited effect. Concussions certainly can occur as a result of too many fights, or even a given fight. But all in all the stops and hits and falls are where most hockey concussions arise, I suspect.
(didn’t read Nader’s letter, so if he has numbers to back up his assertions, I may stand corrected and not yet know it)
by Georgia_Flyer on Feb 8, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
He refers to the growing body of evidence and cites one stat, but mostly it’s a synthesis and an appeal. He says “fighting and all blows to the head” at the beginning and end of the letter but focuses on fighting throughout the body. And most of the headlines focus only on the fighting.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. Fights in hockey aren’t like boxing where you’re going at it for multiple rounds. Most fights don’t last that long and there is a lot of grappling involved so many hits aren’t landed.
Most concussions I’ve seen tend to be the result of hits.
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
Hits, elbows, pucks to the face…don’t see how ending fighting is going to stop these.
"I wouldn’t run if there was a fire. I wouldn’t run anywhere. I hate running." - O. Munn
I’d be surprised if Nader watches that much hockey, so he probably wouldn’t know the difference. He’s just trying to make people remember he still exists with the election coming up.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I doubt Nader is politically motivated to “help write” this letter.
He’s the founder of the website League of Fans. From their site, I gather that the power behind the throne is Dr. Ken Reed, their Sports Policy Director. On the website’s “About Us” page is really just all about him and no one else, and no mention of his title being that of a medical doctor.
Reed: Mr. Nader, could you please sign this?
Nader: What is it, Ken?
Reed: It’s a letter to a sports league commissioner asking him to get individuals to stop punching each other.
Nader: Oh, you mean like a boxing commissioner?
Reed: Yeah, like that.
Nader: OK, sounds good. scribble scribble
But…I thought fighting was supposed to stop dirty hits and elbows?!?
/mind asplode
I heart our rookies.
by LeepinLizardz on Feb 8, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
And pucks to the face. If you could just punch a ref, nobody would’ve ever suggested slapshotting one.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
well bettman gives those guys instigator penalties now
by profoundnotions on Feb 8, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Who decides JVR's fate?
I’m not sure who elected to send Pronger to the Albert Schweitzer of concussions — but the evaluation was quickly handed down: out for the season, out for the playoffs. So, here’s JVR still wandering around in a fog. If I’m the player, I want the best diagnosis possible. But if I’m the FO, I’m not sure I want to close the door on any potential trades by eliciting a blackball report from a head doc. I’m not hearing a shred of optimism from JVR on his progress (other than a positive attitude, which is invaluable). The bottom line is there seems to be a conflict of interest in selecting which doctors are selected to review a player.
JVR resumed skating though, so that’s already light-years better than Pronger’s condition. It sounded like Pronger was having all the headache/vertigo/disorientation problems just in normal living, not including any working out at all.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
has he gone to any1 besides the crosby crackpots?
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
Captain
I think the team needs a captain. Not completely sure who it should be, but I think it’s time to move forward.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
kimmo..even jagr since his work ethic is something they all should emulate and he wants to teach our chillins
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
NOOOOO!!!!!! Jagr is NOT a captain. Trust me on this one …
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
lol ok i thought maybe he had matured in his grizzled old age
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
No and an more NO.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
You gotta get rid of the “and” mister writer.
by blimblam on Feb 8, 2012 6:54 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Damn!
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
why no 2 timo?
he’s never hurt im pretty sure he did it in nashville..he’s superb talent , hes a veteran…wh else would you put
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
You’re getting dangerously close to jibta territory there, bud. That lone comma is what saves you.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
lol woops
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
"I got a crosscheck to the face and lost a bunch of teeth. You battle through it. That’s the way hockey players are made." - Claude Giroux
I say we never ever name another Captain of this team before we win a Stanley cup. Been captain of the Flyers have been a curse thing since Clarke
by Anders Jensen on Feb 8, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Hartnell! :-D
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
LOL
Oddly enough, he probably wouldn’t be such a bad choice. He leads by example, he takes his licks (from Lavi) like a man, he admits his flaws, and he loves the game. Just because he can’t stay on his goddamn skates for a full shift is no reason to disparage the man’s character, I’ll admit.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
You had me at “leads by example”. My thoughts exactly.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Generally speaking, when I was coaching I ensured that the team’s captain was NOT one of the most talented players on the team, but someone who played with heart instead. In some rare instances that can be combined into one person (Richie or SuperMario come to mind) but my ideal captain is more in the Poulin/Primeau/Brind’Amour mold than the Ovechkin/Crosby/Nash mold.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. As much as I usually shy away from debates about “heart”, this is where it’s important. I don’t know stats that help you choose a good captain. It depends so much on intangibles, and you have to be in the room to really be a good judge of that.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
It’s also good to spread responsibilities among a wider leadership pool. You can get more of a buy-in this way. Beware the cliques, though, I guess.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Even though this was in jest and created fodder for humor, I believe it would not be the worst move for the team. I wanted him to wear an “A” earlier in the season.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
I fully expected some people to laugh, or possibly even scoff at the idea, but there was a good deal of sincerity to my suggestion. If I just wanted laughs, I would have said something like Lilja. Hartnell is somewhat of an unconventional choice, which is why it’s funny, but I think it actually has merits.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Rinaldo … THAT would have been funny.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 8, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
i hear jody shelley is a real locker room guy?
by profoundnotions on Feb 8, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
If anyone cares, the Phantoms will practice tomorrow at the SkateZone in Vorhees @ 11:00 AM. Other notes:
Phantoms entering a stretch with 9 of next 11 games on road. 5 of those 9 against current playoff teams.
Newly acquired forward Matt Ford isn’t with the team and may not play this weekend. Ford has been given some time off to deal with a family situation.
That paves the way for forward Garrett Klotz to return to the lineup. Klotz has been out since Dec. 18.
Scrabble headed to adirondack for a bit it looks like
http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landing_flyerstalk?blockID=647590
OT: This is why I hate twitter. Some ass-hat “journalist” tweeted that Maryland’s QB was transferring. Cue panic by the fanbase (what’s left of it). Then the QB himself tweeted that this was false and he’s staying. Jackass reporter was too busy trying to be first to give a damn about being accurate.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Psh, you clearly mean “blogger”. Journalists don’t do that, duh.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Even more OT, my wife and a somewhat-infamous ex-girlfriend of mine from high school both just commented on my best friend’s facebook status. This is scary and weird, I’m just gonna lay low and hope they don’t notice each other.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Facebook – Where You Can’t Escape Your Past, and Your Present Can Ruin Your Future
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Feb 8, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
As long as she can’t see where you have been posting stuff on the ex-girlfriends facebook you should be fine.
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
Speaking from experience, M?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Which should come at no surprise I am not even sure how facebook works. I have an account because of family pictures I was trying to find but haven’t ever used it since. Who has the time for that bullshit?
Commenter formerly known as M from Pdaddy, but still just Call Me "M"!
DISCLAIMER: Information written above may not be entirely factual nor provable with the use of complex statistics. But it may induce thought, humor and possibly laughter.
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