Stop whining about shoot outs.
by RealSantaClaude on Feb 9, 2012 4:54 PM EST
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I've been observing, for quite a while, this blog's jeering the very idea of the shootout for weeks now. I have a lot of respect for the opinions of most people who post here, too. Though it's entertaining to poke holes in this part of the game after every loss it results in for the Flyers, I think it's time this organization changed it's tune.
While I actually enjoy the shootout and welcome it's addition and implementation to the game in recent years, I recognize that my opinion is not a popular one and can see the other side of the argument. I don't believe it matters, though. This "skills competition" that supposedly has no place deciding a game played by 5 men for 65 minutes prior has decided many important games this season and will continue to regardless of your opinion of it; regardless of Peter Laviolette's opinion of it.
Field goal kicking is a part of football. As a hard fought game between big, strong and fast athletes comes to an end, a 170 pound white guy with long sleeves and cool kicks trots out onto the field to decide which team goes home for the winter. That doesn't sound fair. It probably isn't fair to most people. Most people don't even regard kicking as a part of football. It doesn't matter to most coaches, players or fans. Do you know who it does matter to? The NFL, and when that kick sails to the left of the uprights, a "w" is recorded and an "L" is recorded before they turn out the lights and go home.
You may think that the shootout is absurd. You may think it has no place in the game, doesn't properly measure which team played better, etc. I would even bet that the Flyers' organization has agreed with you until recently. But that needs to change. Maybe the shootout is not a part of hockey, but the shootout is definitely a part of the NHL.
So I propose we settle down on the undressing of the shootout, stop turning our noses up at it, dismissing it as a joke because that same attitude in the Flyers organization has directly led to a lower standing in our division; had a DIRECT effect on our W/L record and THAT is everything. It is everything. Let's get better at this part of the game and put more stock into it (just a little more). Peter, have some shootout practices. Find out who's good at it on the team, have a plan. Like it or not, the shootout is a part of the game you play.
I do think we are making strides. Lavy went with the second shot last game so he is at least putting some thought into it. We need to keep this up. Let's take this weakness and make it a strength; let's use it as a weapon to steal some games rather than give them away. What do you say, BSH? Can we and the shootout make amends?
This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
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Field goal kicking is a part of football. As a hard fought game between big, strong and fast athletes comes to an end, a 170 pound white guy with long sleeves and cool kicks trots out onto the field to decide which team goes home for the winter.
I don’t even disagree with the case you’re making, but this is an awful comparison.
I am open to criticism but I honestly think it is a pretty good one. It’s something unlike the rest of the game that decides who wins. Just like a shootout. What analogy would you have used?
by RealSantaClaude on Feb 9, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Not that one. Here’s why:
1. Field goals are often attempted over the course of a football game. They are not explicitly a matter of last resort to determine a winner and a loser (though they can be). In other words, they are very much a part of every football game, and not only a conditional part of some.
2. The 170-pound long-sleeved white guy does plenty of things in the game other than kick field goals to determine who wins or not.
I agree with you that the Flyers should prioritize it more than they do. Two points are always better than one. It seems like they are finally headed in that direction.
That doesn’t mean we can’t hate it, though. The hatred comes from the fact that it has nothing to do with the 65 minutes of hockey played before it. All of the individual skills and coaching systems which affect game results are taken away, and the result is a glorified crapshoot. It’s not like people aren’t realizing that it’s a rule in the NHL; far from it. They just realize how dumb and random the whole thing is.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Feb 9, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Well put, Mike.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
What do you say, BSH? Can we and the shootout make amends?
No. Even if the Flyers become good at it, it’s still a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham of hockey.
Bob.
The Flyers are the worst team in the entire NHL at shootouts, dating back to the year they were instituted.
Source. And don’t click on the next page; it only shows that Winnipeg is 2-3 in shootouts this year. Combine that with Atlanta’s previous win totals and they’re nearly doubly as successful as the Flyers, with 39 wins.
It’s interesting that only Carolina (51 games) and Ottawa (58) have played in fewer shootouts than the Flyers, too. Don’t know if that means anything.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
all things being equal, it’s like saying you don’t like forechecking. I realize it’s not fair, might be out of place in the game, but it IS in the game. It IS going to decide games.
I think you missed Mike’s point.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I’ll reverse my above comment to clarify:
It’s not like people aren’t realizing that (the shootout is) a rule in the NHL; far from it. They just realize how dumb and random the whole thing is. The hatred comes from the fact that it has nothing to do with the 65 minutes of hockey played before it. All of the individual skills and coaching systems which affect game results are taken away, and the result is a glorified crapshoot.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I also said this:
I agree with you that the Flyers should prioritize it more than they do. Two points are always better than one. It seems like they are finally headed in that direction.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
sorry
I don’t know why I didn’t see that first one. I read the comment. Guess I missed it
by RealSantaClaude on Feb 9, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Field goal kicking is a part of football
It’s a part of the game because there are 22 players on the field when it happens. The football equivalent of the shootout would be just having the kickers out there taking 3 attempts from 50 yards.
Flyers, Phillies, Union, Eagles, Phantoms, Wings.
by Pelti on Feb 9, 2012 11:08 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
nice
"Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing." -Al Bundy
Imagine if they instituted that for overtime games….
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 10, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
I hate hockey shootouts and soccer penalties as a means to settle games after playing OT. I also chuckle at those who call it a coin flip or glorified crap shoot.
While it’s possible that some teams are slightly better at it than others, to deny that it’s something that has a lot—a LOT—of luck and variation involved is also laughable.
Ask Wojtek Wolski. I wonder if he went from going 10-of-12 in the shootout one year to 1-of-15 the next year because he decided to stop practicing it.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 10, 2012 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
You called it a glorified coin flip. That means you think shootouts are ALL ABOUT LUCK. That’s not the same as implying that luck and variation are a part of it but not all of it. That’s a lot more tame, isn’t it? I didn’t misrepresent you. It’s more like now you’re changing your tune to sound less radical.
And who denied that there’s luck and variation involved? Did I? Sure sounds like you’re trying to peg me as that guy.
Being good at hockey shootouts, whether you’re the shooter or the goalie, is not a skill like shooting free-throws. Shootouts involve the skill that the other person brings to the game, so your success still hinges on the skill of the other player involved.
by fiveredapples on Feb 11, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
You called it a glorified coin flip.
If we’re getting technical here, I’ve never actually said that, Mr. Stop-Pegging-Me-As-That-Guy. But whatever works for you.
That means you think shootouts are ALL ABOUT LUCK. That’s not the same as implying that luck and variation are a part of it but not all of it. That’s a lot more tame, isn’t it?
A lot more tame? Eh, not really. If there are talent differences, they’re slim at best. I’ll defer to Eric on this one, as he words it a lot better than I could. Though he’s referring to PDO and shooting/goaltending luck, I think it applies here too—probably even moreso given how much smaller the sample sizes we’re dealing with are.
Being good at hockey shootouts, whether you’re the shooter or the goalie, is not a skill like shooting free-throws. Shootouts involve the skill that the other person brings to the game, so your success still hinges on the skill of the other player involved.
I’m honest to god not sure what you’re trying to say here. You’re saying that shootouts aren’t about your skill, they’re about the other guy’s skill. What if you’re the other guy? Is it suddenly not about your skill but the first guy’s skill? So then if you’re the first guy and it’s about the other guy’s skill, and then…(head explodes)
To clarify: what I’ve said before (or, if not, what I mean to say, and it may or may not be something you agree with, I’m still not sure what you’re trying to say above) is that converting on shootouts isn’t a skill that’s sustainable and repeatable over the course of multiple games or multiple seasons. This isn’t even debatable. Go open up any skater’s page on NHL.com and look through their shootout conversion rates from year to year. It’s a fucking roller coaster.
And thus it’s wildly variable and more or less a coin flip. There MAY be some sort of skill involved, but it’s (a) not one that we can really identify as of right now, and (b) one that would probably need many, many more shots to manifest itself over.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Feb 11, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Most soccer leagues only use penalty kicks in elimination games in tournaments. Unlike in hockey where you have line changes every minute, you have 10 guys and a goalkeeper on the field for two 45-minutes halves (and in matches where a penalty kick shootout applies), 30-minutes of extra time with only three substitutions allowed for the entire game. While obviously penalties are a frustrating way to settle some matches, the human body can only run so much and the game must end at some point. Goals in soccer are much harder to come by and much rarer than goals in hockey.
Editor at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter.
I agree that it’s part of the NHL, and something that should be taken seriously by the organization. I won’t agree not to hate it.
And since it disappears in the playoffs, and shootout results have never been the difference between the Flyers making the playoffs and staying home, I’m not convinced I need to embrace them. Hell, even if shootout failures do cause the Flyers to miss the playoffs, I’ll be far more pissed about points dropped because of poor play at 5v5 and 4v4 than at 1v1.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
Sorry – no. I just think a tie is a tie, and playing under some weird non-game situation to determine who ‘won’ the game is simply cheapening the effort already made. What was wrong with having ties anyway???
While the NHl has the policy of determining adding a Bettman point for a shootout win, the team should do their very best to gain said point. However, I can still mock the philosophy under which that point has been created by the league.
If I was to work very hard and very well at my job, and a coworker also did the same, so in determining which of us got a year-end bonus they asked us to play Tetris and the winner got the money … that would be just as absurd as awarding a bonus point for a shootout.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
I love your analogy.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Poor analogy. Tetris is a legitimate sport. Far more discriminatory than a shootout.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 11, 2012 4:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was tempted to use ‘SimCity’ as it’s more appropriate to my job, but figured Tetris was more widely accessible. :)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Feb 13, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
NFL kickers aren’t that great of an analogy. They are part of the “special teams” and usually have plenty of opportunities throughout the game to do their specific job.
How many NHL teams do you know that employ “shootout specialists” and only use them in the shootout. Zero.
I get that you’re referring to games being decided by a kick when the other 95% is decided by offense/defensive plays but I just disagree with your comparison.
Jagr shoots, Jagr scores!!!!!!
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