Friday Morning Fly By: Your Mornings Weren't the Same Without My Snark
Today's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news...
- Recaps: [Lighthouse Hockey] [CSNPhilly] [Flyers Faithful] [Inquirer] [The Checking Line] [delcotimes]
- Peter Laviolette had to throw the gum to the floor rather early last night: [Daily News]
- James van Riemsdyk is out with a broken foot. That whole "he's the new Carter" troll is loking preeeetty smart right about now: [Frequent Flyers] [the700level] [CSNPhilly] [The Checking Line] [Daily News]
- Last night complicated matters, but Paul Holmgren had a difficult decision to make on JVR this summer: [CSNPhilly]
- Rob Bordson is going to be helpful for the Phantoms as they try to make the playoffs: [PostStar]
- Looking at how the Phantoms could make the playoffs: [PostStar]
- Johan Backlund stopped 37 of 38 shots in a 4-1 win, earning 2nd star: [euroflyers] He was also named player of the week: [euroflyers]
- European notes, including some on Tomas Divisek: [Flyers Faithful]
- Don't laugh: Saskatoon wants an NHL team. Okay, laugh: [SBNation.com] [TSN]
- Ugh, Erik Karlsson is currently the Norris Trophy favorite. Because "greatest all-around ability" really just means "ZOMGZ points!" [On the Forecheck]
- Given the strength of the Canadian dollar, asking if there's a chance more teams will move north: [Flyers Faithful]
- Kent Wilson pops on over to Puck Daddy to talk about the stats nerds and the Minnesota Wild. It comes out as nice as "We effing told you so!" can: [Puck Daddy]
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JVR
This just makes me really sad. I’m a big fan of the guy and I just can’t believe he’s gone through all this bad luck in the season he was going to (I believe) make the step up to become a real star on the Flyers.
Nothing more to say really. The Flyers have a history of trading players after unproductive seasons in which they suffered through injury and tried to play through it (see Versteeg, Kris; Richards, Mike). JVR may still have good value for a number of teams. I’m not sure he’ll be a Flyer to start the next season. And I completely believe he’ll go into permanent beast mode for a full season at some point on another team. Maybe I’m just being pessimistic, but that’s what I’m fearing will happen at the moment. Hopefully we get a first round pick that turns into a great player or a some really amazing prospect.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 6:48 AM EST reply actions
Look on the bright side – until he gets back in the game, his trade value is too low for Homer to move him.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
While JVR’s injuries have been frustrating, his absence has given players like Jake, Read, Simmonds and Schenn the opportunity to step up. Next season, I see a healthier, rejuvenated JVR replacing Jagr in the lineup and that’s not a bad thing.
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Jagr’s current cap hit is less than JVR’s future cap hit, which is disheartening. It means we lose Jagr and gain nothing.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
Did you think that Jagr would be signing an extension? I was under the impression Jagr would only be here for a season and be lost next year anyway..
"Fuckin' right!" - Mark Recchi on winning the Stanley Cup
I’ve been hoping they can find a way to keep him. I’m not sure why, maybe just cuz he’s fun to have around. Chances are his cap hit could be better spent on defense though.
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
with the current year all 3 of them are having, and Jagr’s allegiance to simply feed Giroux the puck, I think it’d be a mistake to not do everything within reason to bring Jagr back
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
If the cap really does go up to $68M you could conceivably bring Carle back at $5M, Jagr at $3M, Voracek at $2.5M and Grossman at the same hit as this year. If Pronger doesn’t come back, then there is room for another D man as well.
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
I seem to remember Jagr making comments to the effect that he’d like to come back next year, he’s not worried about money, and he’ll worry about working out the details later (i.e. in the off-season).
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
the point i took from the interview is that if he can’t be a regular Top 6 guy he wouldn’t play in the NHL. Presumably this would also be true if the coach didn’t think he could still play Top 6 minutes. Money was irrelevant.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Right, that was a key point I forgot to include. He’d like to come back next year if it looks like he can keep playing at that level, he’s not worried about money, and he’ll worry about working out the details later (i.e. in the off-season), after seeing how the rest of this year goes.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Jagr is technically a RW, JVR a left.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Let's be serious about JVR's Contract
Why did they jump on signing it? If he stayed playing at the level he did when he signed it, they’d have committed to the same contract right now. But it’s not like he would have expected more money or gone on to be the league leader in goals. It’s a lot of money to commit to anyone coming off their rookie contract. It’s another mistake by our Front Office and it’s getting really tiresome.
It's in his wheelhouse!!
Carlos Ruiz, My Nickname is Chooch.
James Neal just scored 30 goals for the first time in his career and was awarded with a 5 million dollar contract through till 2018. That’s from a front office which is widely regarded as more than adept. JVR scored 7 goals in 11 games during last season’s playoffs. Obviously that doesn’t mean we’d expect 52 goals over 82 games, but would it be that much of a stretch to say there was a chance he’d hit 30? Surely more of a chance than Scott Hartnell being on pace for 40 goals?
The FO took a gamble. You could argue the odds were against them. But the gamble was that JVR would break out this season and elevate his value to above 4.2 million. It should be noted that the 4.2 million also includes some UFA years, so that ups the contract value.
There are also ‘intangibles’ which a lot of people will brush off: the Flyers just traded away the faces of their franchise and it was an important strategic move to lock in the ‘future faces’ from the PR perspective. Giroux and JVR were the faces. Giroux grasped it; but unfortunately JVR got the cam impingement early and from then on has gone through a concussion and foot injury.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 7:26 AM EST up reply actions
James Neal signed his deal four and a half months away from free agency. JVR signed his 11 months away from free agency.
James Neal signed his deal after 4 straight 20 goal seasons. JVR signed his after one 20 goal season.
James Neal signed his third contract for 6 years, $30 million. JVR signed his second contract for 6 years, $25.5 million.
The two are not even close to comparable.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
“do you smelllllll la la la la la what the Rock is cookin’?
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:12 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, and James Neal signed a two year deal with a $2.875m cap hit for his second contract, after he put up:
24 goals, 37 points
27 goals, 55 points.
Compare that to JVR’s 6 year deal with a $4.25m cap hit after he put up:
15 goals, 35 points
21 goals, 40 poitns.
You’d almost think JVR should have gotten less than a 2 year, $2,875m deal after two NHL seasons.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:19 AM EST up reply actions
The issue here is that you’re looking at past performance while the Flyers were attempting to project future performance. And I’m sure you’ll admit that the Penguins signed Neal to a 5 million dollar contract while attempting to project future performance too. It’s just the world we live in.
Yeah a 2 year 2.875m deal would’ve been a good idea, but the Flyers obviously wanted to take it longer term. Jakub Voracek is an example of the Flyers constructing such an intermediate deal, so it probably did cross their minds. A problem there might have been that Giroux and JVR’s contracts would both then end in the same season (together with Coots and Schenn and Read…)
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:26 AM EST up reply actions
NHL teams sign UFAs on projected future performance. They sign RFAs to the lowest deal possible since they have nobody bidding them up.
The Flyers got burnt by the JVR contract. It is not even close to what the Penguins did with James Neal.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t Neal an RFA?
Don’t you think the Penguins might realistically get burnt by the Neal contract? If, say, he goes back to being a 25-goal-scorer?
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
I think the point that’s been made is that Neal has establish consistency. The Pens are rewarding that consistency. If Neal regresses, it was improbable
The Flyers awarded one year. The rewarded that one year. It’s more probable that he won’t replicate that year, compared to Neal’s contract
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
The Flyers rewarded a playoff series, not even a whole season.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Yup. 11 games.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
How good was he in those 11 games though. Gives me chills.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
Not to be a dick, but being a knight in shining armor wading through a pile of shit doesn’t degress from the fact that you’re in a pile of shit
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
Doesn’t degress from the fact that once you’re out of the pile of shit, you’re still a knight in shining armor.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
yes but to this date, it’s only been exemplified while in dire circumstance.
outside of that small circumstance, he really hasn’t done much to. Certainly hasn’t done enough to earn that contract
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
Am I claiming that his two seasons of mediocrity = 4.2 million? No. I’m saying that his curve was projecting upwards to a level which may have deserved 4.2 million or more – particularly if he had hit 30 goals at some point this season.
The reason he didn’t get a chance to show us what his curve was really like was injury. Therefore, we can’t go back and say ‘the Flyers were wrong’, just that ’we’ll never know how JVR would’ve progressed because he got three separate injuries’. If JVR had played a full healthy season and scored 20 goals I would be very annoyed.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yes but when you are investing that much money in the future on an unknown commodity, you have to be cognizant of potential injury, and other unknown variables.
It was a bad investment to wager after 1 solid year and 1 very good playoff series.
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
$25.5 million good!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions
James Neal has only two years of RFA eligibility left. The Penguins paid for 4 UFA years. Flip that around, and that’s what the Flyers paid for: four years of RFA and two years of UFA.
And if James Neal becomes “only” a 25-goal scorer, he’ll still be worth ~$4.5 million in UFA for that. I’m not going to quibble over the Penguins’ overpaying by about $250k a year.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
And if James Neal becomes "only" a 25-goal scorer, he’ll still be worth ~$4.5 million in UFA for that. I’m not going to quibble over the Penguins’ overpaying by about $250k a year.
Hmm maybe my scales aren’t calibrated correctly. Do you mind if you point me to where you correlate 20 goals to ~$4.5 million?
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
First, you said 25 goals, not 20. Second, Scott Hartnell would be the best place to start.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah my bad that was a typo (I meant 25)
I think Hartnell’s overpaid and was all for trading him (still am, as a matter of fact).
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
Good for you. That’s a UFA deal for a 24 goal scorer.
$5 million players:
Bergeron, Ryan, Kesler, Carter, Perry, Getzlaf…
Looks like 25 goal guys signed as RFAs to me.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
Gomez …
:)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
UFA. Nice try.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Was it? I thought there was more drama … huh. My bad.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
See here’s where I’m not getting where you’re coming from. You’ve given a list of guys who were 25 goal guys signed as RFAs and earned $5 million dollar contracts? Isn’t it fairly easily conceivable that if JVR had been healthy he would have hit 25 goals and been demanding a $5 million dollar contract akin to these guys?
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
You’re talking about Bergeron’s last contract, or this one? He signed the 3 year, 15 mil one as a UFA, I think.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
He signed 5 years @ $4.75m as an RFA, then 3 years @ $5m as a UFA.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Mar 2, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Stop it. You are making me angry. And it’s Friday. I’m supposed to be happy.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
What Geoff says is truth. Avoid the truth. “It’s Friday. You ain’t got no job. You aint got shit to do. I’m gonna get you high today”
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
I didn’t think I needed to post a “We were right about JVR” post since I just figured people could understand this is exactly why you don’t sign an RFA to a six year before they’ve done anything in the NHL.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
I know this. You know this. But sometimes, just seeing it still makes it hurt even more.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
Yeah. Apparently there are still people who don’t understand.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
You can refer to me directly, it’s cool, I can take that.
I just figured people could understand this is exactly why you don’t sign an RFA to a six year before they’ve done anything in the NHL.
Again, I don’t think it proves your point simply because your point was proven right by freak unpredictable events (injury) as opposed to something you could’ve predicted (poor performance, lack of progress).
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions
Injury is always possible, thus it’s always able to be factored into predictions. How hard is it to realize “hey, maybe he doesn’t play 82 games and thus can’t impress enough to somehow demand $4.25 million”?
When you’re betting on a vast improvement, you’re also betting on health. It’s not like JVR could put up 70 points, making this contract look good, if he wasn’t healthy.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
How hard is it to realize "hey, maybe he doesn’t play 82 games and thus can’t impress enough to somehow demand $4.25 million"?
You’d probably agree with me that the probability that you get an adequate sample size is greater than the probability that injury reduces the sample size to such a low number that it’s insignificant. The Flyers have been exceptionally unlucky with JVR. Exceptionally.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
Anyway, I’m out for the moment (got a really busy day ahead). Nice talking. Hope someone else raises the banner when I’m gone!
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
sure id say you can account for a small amount of games lost to injury but you cant reall account for damn near half a season lost
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
screw the subjective notion of 'fair'
Embrace true equality in treatment in all aspects, not just ones that benefit you or your cause
Again, I don’t think it proves your point simply because your point was proven right by freak unpredictable events (injury) as opposed to something you could’ve predicted (poor performance, lack of progress).
If you go back to the thread about his extension, you’ll find a very lengthy argument in which Geoff, Don, and I were trying to make two essential points:
1) JvR was under team control for the next five years already, so there was no pressure to make this deal. They were at no real risk of losing him, so there was no great benefit to locking him up for the long term. Doing so transferred all of the risk of underperformance, injury, or CBA change from the player to the team, and should only be done if they get a discount on the contract in return for assuming that risk.
2) RFAs are paid much less than UFAs (about 40% less), so you have to be careful with the salary comparisons (see RFA salaries here). That 40% multiplier makes this deal worth about 3.75M over the four RFA years and 5.25M over the two UFA years, so compare him to 3.75M RFAs or 5.25M UFAs. You’ll find that 3.75M for a RFA or 5.25M for a UFA is a typical cap hit for a player with 30/30 production, not 20/20. (See comparable deals signed by players at that stage.)
And when you combine those two points, you get the following thesis: Signing him to this deal before this season would look like a smart move if he was better than 30/30 this year, neutral if he was around 30/30 (although they still got no discount for the risk they took), and bad if he was at less than 30/30. Looking at this list suggests that 30/30 was an optimistic projection; it was certainly within the range of possibilities, but it’s hard to argue that it was the midpoint of the range, that he was as likely to be 35/35 as 25/25. So they took the rare step of paying for potential instead of current production on a player under RFA control, took an optimistic view of his future production, and got no discount for transferring various risks from the player to the team.
I wasn’t against the idea of an extension in principle, but I think they set the price a little too high on this one — in their risk/reward gamble, they took on a little too much risk and didn’t have enough potential reward. We can now look back with hindsight and say it didn’t work out, and you’re right — that doesn’t prove that I was right that the price was set too high, but the fact that even before the injury he was never on pace to exceed 30/30 and make the gamble pay off should at least make people think twice about whether they were overly focused on that 11-game flash of potential when they were imagining what he might do this year.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
by Eric T. on Mar 2, 2012 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That conversation still makes me want to put my head through a wall.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
hopefully for the team your cap hit is low. also, don’t go to the team doctors.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
You’re great Eric. Somehow I agree with that 100%, despite it being a rebuttal to me…
The reason for that is I think in the first part of that last paragraph you said what I was trying to say but better:
I wasn’t against the idea of an extension in principle, but I think they set the price a little too high on this one — in their risk/reward gamble, they took on a little too much risk and didn’t have enough potential reward. We can now look back with hindsight and say it didn’t work out, and you’re right — that doesn’t prove that I was right that the price was set too high
That’s all I was really saying. That we won’t really know if the extension was a good idea in JVR’s individual case simply because we didn’t have the chance to let it play out. If JVR played out a full healthy season and hit 25/25, then fair enough the extension was a bad idea. But we really can’t know can we.
the fact that even before the injury he was never on pace to exceed 30/30 and make the gamble pay off should at least make people think twice about whether they were overly focused on that 11-game flash of potential when they were imagining what he might do this year.
Yep I think there’s no doubt that an 11-game flash of potential was what the focus was on. Again, we’ll never know if it was appropriate to focus on that. But I do dispute the point that he was never on pace to exceed 30/30 before the injury simply because we don’t know for a fact when the cam impingement started bothering him.
But yeah that’s the only area I mildly disagree with in your post there.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
But we really can’t know can we.
It was still a bad idea to expose yourself to an additional risk without getting yourself a discount. Which I guess is another thing you disagree with. Frankly Geoff, Eric, and myself were never concerned with what happened this year; are opinions of it were largely independent, if not completely, of his performance this year. You don’t sign that early, expose yourself to additional risk, and pay on potential; it’s just not good business.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
we’ve reached snark factor 5…i have chills
Beets,Bears,Battlestar Galactica.
MICHAEL!
Political Correctness - the belief that one can pick up a turd by the clean end.
screw the subjective notion of 'fair'
Embrace true equality in treatment in all aspects, not just ones that benefit you or your cause
I understand it. It’s a risk, sure. But what happens if he DOES reach his potential and posts several 30+ goal seasons and we have him in his prime at that cap hit?
"Fuckin' right!" - Mark Recchi on winning the Stanley Cup
Future performance doesn’t change the fact the money was left on the table at the time the contract was signed. For that contract to be a “bargain deal” at the time it was signed the Flyers were betting somewhere around 70+ points, a reasonable deal (meaning you could have just as easily signed the same one after the season without taking on any risk) is 60-65 points, a bad deal would be 55 or under. Of that, the only way the Flyers come out winners in this deal was a highly unlikely scenario of 70+ points, unless you are stubborn enough to believe he would play this entire season like he did 11 games of last years playoffs. Personally if I’m betting on last year, I’m better on the large sample to be the better predictor from last year.
With all that said, I did not predict his shots would go up at the rate they have this year.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
but that's the problem...
if you sign a guy to a 6 year, 4.25 mil/year deal the words ‘if’ and ‘potential’ should not be involved at all.
it was a bad deal. you have to judge it on when the deal was done. While it’s good to sign a guy to a cheaper deal while he’s trending upward instead of doing it when he’s peaking, JVR’s trend upwards was all of a brief playoff stint.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Mar 2, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
if you sign a guy to a 6 year, 4.25 mil/year deal the words ‘if’ and ‘potential’ should not be involved at all.
The ‘potential’ and ‘if’ factor was that JVR could outplay 4.25 million this season. Unlikely, yes, but look at Jeff Carter earning a 5 million dollar contract after he scored 29 goals in the third season of his ELC…and that was when the cap was lower.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
In this instance, the truth was that Craig did indeed get fired for being caught stealing boxes. So, Smokey helps him avoid the truth, and smokes him up
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
I’m applying movie ethics
It does wonders sometimes
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
On the first point – yes but that wasn’t my point was it?
On the second point – forgive the Flyers front office for believing that JVR is a perennial 20 goal scorer before he’s proven that to be the case.
On the third point – the Flyers obviously made the decision to skip the intermediate contract. I wouldn’t have had qualms with them if they’d done the intermediate contract which ends while JVR is still an RFA, but JVR’s second deal is essentially the equivalent (in hockey player career terms) to Neal’s second.
Anyway, he comparability doesn’t come from whether a man signed his second or his third contract; or whether he was born in 1987 or 1989. The comparability comes from the fact that a man is being signed to a long expensive contract on the hope that a strong stretch throughout the season is not a fluke; that the player is going to reach their potential. James Neal isn’t worth 5 million per season till 2018 on the basis of four 20 goal seasons, the Penguins are taking a gamble. Similarly, JVR isn’t worth 4.2 million per season on the basis of his first two seasons, but the Flyers took a gamble. That’s the comparison.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:21 AM EST up reply actions
James Neal has proven to be a consistent 20 goal scorer, something he’s done each and every year for four straight years.
The Flyers took an unnecessary and ill-advised gamble on JVR and lost.
The Penguins are paying a proven 20 goal scorer and three-time 24 goal scorer $5 million for two RFA years and four UFA years.
I don’t know how else to tell you that the two contracts are not even close to similar.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions
The Flyers took an unnecessary and ill-advised gamble on JVR and lost.
Here’s the big issue I’ve got. If JVR had simply played poorly then I would agree with you completely. But it hasn’t been that. It’s been injury. No-one can predict that much bad luck for a guy. That’s where I’m ready to give the Flyers a break.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t matter why JVR had a disappointing season. It matters that the Flyers incorrectly felt the likelihood that JVR exploded this year was greater than the likelihood that he stayed the same or got worse.
I don’t care if it’s injury, I don’t care if it’s bad shooting luck, I don’t care if it’s lack of progress, I don’t care if it’s modest progress.
The chances that the Flyers could sign JVR for $4.25m over 6 years or less was substantially larger than the chance that JVR would do something this year to earn more than that.
You’re giving the Flyers a break for something that was completely predictable.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t care if it’s injury, I don’t care if it’s bad shooting luck, I don’t care if it’s lack of progress, I don’t care if it’s modest progress.
Yeah I do. You can’t predict the first two; you can predict the second two. I’m ready to give them a break for getting something wrong that wasn’t predictable.
The odds may not have been on their side. That’s why it was a gamble. But they lost due to an unpredictable freak event, which means it doesn’t now mean they were 100% wrong. Just that we’ll never know.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
So you wouldn’t factor in the likelihood that Jaromir Jagr could get injured because of his age in his UFA deal? You wouldn’t factor in the fact that Simon Gagne may have another concussion when signing him to a UFA deal?
It’s naive to say you can’t factor in health when taking gambles.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
No I would definitely factor those in. But that just reinforces my point. A guy who’s 40 years old or who has a past history of concussions has a high enough probability of injury for you to factor that in. A 22 year old largely healthy guy has such a low probability of injury that you tend not to factor that in.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
But with the 22 year old you don’t know what he’s capable of. At least with the 40 year old I have an idea of his production
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
Also, when betting on a massive increase in production, you should probably stop to think “hey, what can possibly go wrong here? This is hockey? You mean guys get concussions and break their feet and pull groins?”
People don’t pay over market value on potential without stopping to ask “hey, how many different things can go wrong here?”
When that list out numbers the list of “why do you do this now?”, it’s a horrible gamble. You don’t get an excuse because something on the list of “what can go wrong” did. You should have known that possibility existed, and it was one of many scenarios that would make you look stupid.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 8:55 AM EST up reply actions
more importantly, the actual salary cap doesnt acknowledge injury excuses. Sure, you can go over on the LTIR, but you’re still paying that cap hit
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
You don’t get an excuse because something on the list of "what can go wrong" did. You should have known that possibility existed, and it was one of many scenarios that would make you look stupid.
Yes you should know that the possibility existed but the percentage probability of JVR accumulating three separate injuries this season is surely so low that you wouldn’t want it to dominate your line of thinking.
A concussion somewhere that he recovers fully from – fine
A broken foot for 6 weeks – fine
A cam impingement that they can delay offseason surgery for – fine
All three? That’s just completely unpredictable
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
All three? That’s just completely unpredictable
Interactive multivariate effects, ftw!
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
But if you factor in health then you don’t want to pay guys to play hockey. In that case, you want to pay them to sit in the press box, where they’re safe. The risk of injury is inherent in the sport and inherent in signing people to contracts to play that sport. Anyone can get hurt at any time, and you can’t predict that.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
You are missing the point. If you the team sign a guy 11 months early to an extension, you assume all of the extra risks and take them away from the player. If you wait those injuries are a benefit to the Flyers negotiating power, if you sign early without having to, you take on all that risk.
You are being hyperbolic here. You always factor it in, it doesn’t mean you pay Jagr $500K, it might mean you offer him $500K less because you worry he might break down over the course of a season. Or maybe you offer him one year less than he wants but at the price he wants. That stuff is factored in, but not in some ridiculous way you are implying.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Yeah, I missed the point, I’m off on a tangent. You’re talking about signing him 11 months early, I’m annoyed with people who say they didn’t want to sign him at all back then because now he’s injured. Moving on.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Yeah, the point wasn’t “don’t let a guy get hurt”, it was “you have to account for the likelihood that injuries derail the progress you’re paying for.”
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I know that those who say JvRs contract was a mistake aren’t relying on the injury-filled season as evidence, and I read through this fairly quickly so perhaps I missed this but a way to look at the injury factor is not with JvR’s specific facts (how could Holmgren know he’d have a hip, a concussion and a foot all in the same season) but as if you were pricing insurance for a pool.
I would guess that injuries and particularly recovery time increase with age. But if you’re not pricing the risk of lost time and replacement cost into a 22-year-old hockey player’s contract that’s not good business.
I have no idea if front offices do this. They should.
And relying on JvR’s injury as a “who knew” argument distorts things.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Here’s the problem in a simplified version:
Flyers win if: JVR scores 70+ points this season; then the contract they signed early wouldn’t have been on the table any more, and JVR would have commanded more $$$
No one wins: if JVR has around a 60 point season. If that’s the case, the same contract they signed early is still available at the end of the season. The problem here is they expose themselves to risk unnecessarily.
Flyers lose: if JVR ends up at 55 points or less. They could have likely signed him to a deal for less.
The thing is, put probabilities on those 11 months ago. The only way the Flyers win isn’t a very good %, combine that with the fact they are exposing themselves to unnecessary risk, it is just not the smartest move.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Where’s the flowchart?!
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
If I could have found it I would have posted it instead.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
To clarify, I just never want to go back to that thread, ever; so really I can’t find it because I refuse to look haha.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
When I went back, I was surprised to see that only a very small slice of the thread was about “how likely is he to hit 70+ points this coming year and make us glad we signed him to that deal”; it was almost all about the importance of team control (on the need to sign early and on the expected cap hit of an RFA).
And, of course, bizarre tangents about how the futures market works and the concept of risk premiums.
@BSH_EricT
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By the way, if it isn’t obvious, this is the “what would have happened if the Flyers hadn’t signed the extension” flowchart, emphasizing what outcomes this year would make us glad he was signed to this extension.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
No it isn’t the smartest move, and yes the odds were not on their side. It was a gamble and I think every successful sports franchise needs to take the occassional gamble. The probability of success was definitely less than 50% so I think we’re greed there. I assume you’ll see my comments on the injury effect above so that’s the main crux of my disagreement.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately this is an unnecessary gamble. I can buy in to gambling if the player isn’t under team control.
I’m fine with you disagreeing with Geoff because I think he lost focus on this, but I’ll go back and repeat one thing; our problem with the contract was independent of how he did this year, our problem is the timing, exposing yourself to additional risk, and paying on potential. Those 3 things just should not all go together, it’s bad business.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Agreed. This is what bugs me about the whole thing. Everyone is bitching about JVR being a waste because he’s having a disappointing season. But he’s having a disappointing season because he got a concussion, broke his foot, and his hip is fucked up. Couldn’t have seen that coming. And because it happened, there’s no way to know what his production would have turned out to be if he was healthy. Yeah, the Flyers took a gamble giving him that contract, and maybe the price was a bit high given the risk/reward analysis that Eric quoted above (which I can totally buy), but doesn’t any team take a gamble giving any player a contract? If you’re worried they might get hurt and not be able to play, then you can’t sign anyone. What pisses me off is that now, the day after he’s hurt and will miss 6-8 weeks, people are going to piss all over JVR and say we should have traded him and garnish it with an “I’ve been saying this all along”. It’s hindsight. It’s narrative. It’s bullshit.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
but doesn’t any team take a gamble giving any player a contract?
Simple answer. No, not like this one. The Flyers took on all the risk signing that extension 11 months early. Look at his pace, correct for luck, it still really wasn’t worth that gamble (comes out to be on pace for 60 points if he has a healthy season and gets the same bounces as last year, which means roughly the same contract is available at the end of the season), and that was the point; a team deserves a discount taking on all that risk.
Now if you just want to stick to the whole people shouldn’t rip on JVR just because he is injured, that’s fine. To be fair, Geoff, Eric, and I aren’t ripping on JVR, just the extension and timing of it.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Okay, I think it’s semantics I’m getting hung up on. I’m taking a lot of the griping I’m reading lately to be about signing JVR at all and keeping him on the team. Where you guys are talking about the particular monetary value of the contract. You’re saying good player, want him on the team, not really a good call to sign him for that much dough. And that argument I can see being independent of his injury luck this year. But what I’m upset at is people saying he’s absolute shit, get rid of him. And even more upset because that argument will be amplified now, today, the day after he’s hurt, as if the injury somehow proves that he’s worthless. So I have a beef with the WIP-esque JVR hate, and I think I’ve mistaken what you guys are saying as being part of that, when it’s not.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
That’s fine, that’s just not what PoL’s whole thing was above IMO, so I wanted to clarify. Plus I think you are exaggerating a bit in some of your points; which makes sense if you are responding to people saying he shouldn’t be a Flyer, but not really in regard to anything else.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Right, I’m responding to the wrong JVR argument. Possibly preemptively, because I’m fully expecting some “he’s shit, get rid of him” comments to be posted here today. :-p
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
It was, in a way. You have to factor in that I’ve been a huge JVR fan for completely subjective reasons for a long time so my personal projection of him is higher than what logic and stats says.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, a common refrain from the people who liked the signing was “he’s going to be great and I’m glad we locked him up.”
But he was under team control for the next five years already. Nobody was advocating letting him leave; I was just arguing that the Flyers should make better use of the leverage that team control gave them and make him show that he’ll live up to his potential before he gets paid for it.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Yeah, and I really appreciate you guys going through that analysis, because I had never thought of it that way before and would have fallen into the "he’s going to be great and I’m glad we locked him up" crowd without ever giving it a second thought. I still like him and that he’s on our team, but I can better understand now the shortcomings of how we did it. As I say frequently, I’ve learned a lot around here, it’s made a smarter hockey fan out of me.
Like I said, I still stand by my comment, but it was totally misplaced. I was just being very defensive earlier because of the surge of JVR hate I’m feeling lately that’s again louder today because he got injured. But that’s unrelated to your discussion, so I was being silly.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I think it’s fair to claim that guys like Gagne and Jagr are injury prone because (along with their point production) they’ve demonstrated that tendency. JVR hasn’t shown any real tendencies for either, because he’s only had two years in the league. Homer probably should have waited to sign the contract, but he has done this multiple times with guys that he wants to be the “core” of the team. The Richards, Carter, and Giroux contracts all came down way before the end of the season where the previous contract expired. Ignoring the fact that Homer traded Carter and Richards away, the preemptive signing of JVR’s contract was probably Homer’s way of telling him that the team believes in him. It’s also where Homer lost all of his leverage.
Can someone remind me, as far as the timeline goes, where JVR’s extension fit into the blockbuster trades this offseason?
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Two months after the trades.
The problem isn’t that JVR got injured. The problem is that the Flyers assumed the risk that JVR would get injured, hinder his performance, and lower the cost of resigning him by having less than 45 points for the third straight year.
Rather than wait, rather than sign him to market value for RFA players, rather than sign him to a contract based on past performance, the team jumped the gun and signed him to a deal that can only see value if JVR becomes a consistent 30/30 guy, which he has never shown the ability to do.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Do you think the contract was at least partially based on the fact that Richards and Carter were just traded away after signing lifetime contracts?
I’m thinking Homer felt like he needed to just pick a guy and sign him up for a medium length contract to prove that he was willing to stick with players and that the trades of Richards and Carter had nothing to do with their contract length. If he’s approaching JVR’s agent and saying “Let’s get something done,” then he has no leverage.
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
It’s certainly possible. I really hope it isn’t true, but it’s absolutely a possibility.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah I mentioned that above as an intangible. The Flyers are a business. The fans were agitated. I think a 2-year-contract to JVR and Simmonds and a 1-year-contract to Voracek wouldn’t have been the best PR move.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
The Flyers took an unnecessary and ill-advised gamble on JVR and lost.
You absolutely cannot say that definitively. In fact, you have NO measurement of that whatsoever. The damn contract hasn’t even started yet, so you cannot evaluate his performance under it.
You may THINK it was ill-advised, and we can debate if it was necessary, but it is definitely too soon to say they ‘lost’.
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by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
If the Flyers can sign JVR to a 6 year, $4.25 million contract after two straight 40 or less point seasons, I can’t say they can sign JVR to a 6 year, $4.25 million contract after three straight 40 or less point seasons?
Does the extra year of no growth drive his price up? If not, I don’t see why I can’t say they took a gamble locking him up early and lost, since they could have gotten him for as much, and most certainly less, if they didn’t gamble.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
1) Someone else would have paid him the same after this year on potential alone. See “Leino, Ville”. Then the team loses him entirely.
2) He still isn’t being measured by the terms of his contract – he hasn’t started that contract yet. So you cannot measure his value against it.
3) JVR’s actual salary increases over the length of the contract, just as his performance is expected to increase. His pay next season (in actual dollars-in-wallet) is only $2.5m, which is CHEAP for a 50-point player.
4) His age cohorts AND pay comparables on Capgeek are players like Lucic ($4.08m), Jordan Staal ($4m), and Ladd ($4.4m). Lucic had only 2+ NHL seasons at less than a half-point per game before signing a three-year deal with Boston. Staal is kinda not comparable, as a totally different player, but he had only 3 seasons NHL experience before Pittsburgh inked him. Ladd had 4+ NHL seasons, signed a one-year deal in the mid-two-million range, then signed his big deal the year after. You can argue that the team shoudl have modeled their approach after Ladd, but you can also argue that JVR’s contract is similar ot what the market bears.
5) There are another 6 YEARS for JVR to live up to this contract. You cannot say the team lost until at least half of them have passed, not with any certainty. He may start scoring 50 goals a year next season (not likely, but possible) – and then you’ll look stupid, won’t you?
I agree that the team was perhaps premature in signing him to such a large and long deal – but I also think YOU are premature in writing it off entirely.
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by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
1) When’s the last time someone signed an RFA? Ville Leino is a horrible example since JVR never would have hit the open market.
2) I’m not measuring his value against his current contract. I’m measuring what he’s getting next year, and what he would have gotten if the Flyers offered him a contract today.
3) His performance was expected to increase this year, and it didn’t. Why are you signing a long-term deal with a guy who never put up even 41 points in a season and giving him built in pay raises?
4) Eric went over his comparables before, and his list is much deeper than yours. RFA’s don’t get $4 million contracts after putting up 40 point seasons.
5) Just like #2, nobody is arguing what JVR will do. The point is that the Flyers could have had JVR’s super awesome 50 goal seasons next year for less than $4.25 million if they had waited.
I honestly don’t know how this point keeps getting lost. If JVR becomes super duper amazing 50 goal, 80 point guy every year for the next 6 years, the Flyers still should not have signed him to a 6 year, $25.5 million contract in August of 2011.
The likelihood that the Flyers couldn’t reach that same deal with JVR in August 2012 was very, very slim. If JVR kept on his slow pace of improvement this year, without getting hurt, he still wouldn’t have warranted anything close to $4.25 million per year. Add in the possibility that he regressed, or got hurt, and you have a high probability that the Flyers could have signed JVR for 6 years and $3.5 million per.
This whole notion of “but if he scores 300 goals over the next 6 years, this contract looks awesome” ignores the fact that the Flyers could have signed him to the exact same contract if JVR put up 50 or 55 points this year. Instead, he put up 23, and they could have saved $1 million or more per year over the next 6 years.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
You miss my entire point. I agree that the contract may have been premature. But opportunity cost is a fleeting decision-point. Maybe they bit too much too early. But the maybe not part is my dispute.
You actually aren’t arguing what I said. You’re arguing what you think I said. You even conceded my entire point above –
I’m not measuring his value against his current contract. I’m measuring what he’s getting next year, and what he would have gotten if the Flyers offered him a contract today.
That was my entire point. If you spend the extra money on a Mercedes this year, not knowing what next year’s model may be like or what it will cost, have you really ‘lost out’ when your Mercedes drives nicely for the next 6 years? Or have you simply missed some opportunity-cost-savings? One can write those off if the overall investment is positive.
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by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
This is a horrendous example IMO.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
One that Eric already corrected in August.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Your analogy is terrible — you say you overpay for a Mercedes because you have confidence in its value and productiveness, and in the very same paragraph say that JvR’s future productiveness is unknown and could be Alexander Daigle. This is like paying the Mercedes blue book value to get a car from a guy who you think owns a Mercedes or two, but you’re not sure what other cars he has or which one he’s going to give you. When you have the option to wait until he pulls the car out of his garage and then pay fair market value for it.</blockquote>
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I even previewed that comment…
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
This site has been buggy for me all day.
Also I don’t want to rehash this whole thing. I’m disappointed I even posted at this point.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I just want to post the flowchart and move on.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
There are two separate things going on here.
Question 1: Will JvR give more than $25.5M’s worth of production over the next six years? I think almost everyone here thinks the answer to that is yes, and I think that’s the point penguinsfan was trying to reiterate with his Mercedes analogy.
Question 2: Could JvR have been signed for less than $25.5M, making him an even bigger bargain? Based on comparison to everyone who ever signed an RFA contract except for Milan Lucic, the answer seems to be yes. Based on what actually happened this year, the answer is probably yes. That’s the point that Geoff is trying to drive home.
So if pf agrees with Geoff that JvR could have been signed for less money and Geoff agrees with pf that JvR should outproduce this contract, then I’m not even sure what they’re arguing about. I guess all that’s left then is “I like every contract an RFA signs, because even if it’s more than any other RFA gets, it’s still a discount” versus “I only like the RFA contracts that pay the player something comparable to or less than what other RFAs get.”
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
THANK YOU ERIC
Geoff agrees with pf that JvR should outproduce this contract
Haven’t seen that statement here yet.
That’s all really – and that was a very succinct summary. As usual, kudos.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
This was all over the original article and we had been over it before. That’s the whole point of being under team control; as Eric shows in the two different quotes at the bottom of his response. You stirring the pot IMO more so than anything else. Which is fine, I just feel like pointing it out because I’m sick of this damn discussion after we’ve already lived it once.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
The problem is that the objection is never put in terms of “but he’ll still provide value on the 6 year, $4.25mil deal”, and if it is, it’s never left at that.
Maybe it’s the fact that none of us can articulate ourselves like Eric, but I feel like this discussion always goes in circles around things that are tangentially related to “He’ll still provide value” v. “yeah, but he’s going to provide value anyway, and he would have provided much more value”.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
No I get it, and I know PF is smart enough to get it because he has certainly read it before. I think he was just trying to stir up shit with you so I’m calling shenanigans. If I’m wrong, my bad, but that’s how it seemed to me.
Maybe I’m just over protective of you
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Drat – foiled again :)
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I just don’t like such singular and definitive statements as the one I wanted to clarify first –
The Flyers took an unnecessary and ill-advised gamble on JVR and lost.
That’s WA-A-A-AY too judgmental and dismissive. Even if I understand the thinking behind it, I felt compelled to argue the actual statement.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
The Flyers did not need to sign JVR to that contract in August of 2011. They gambled that JVR would somehow do something in 11-12 to drive up his cost from 6 years, $4.25 million, which means he would have had to score about 30 goals and 70 points.
That’s an ill-advised gamble an on unnecessary contract, and they lost.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
All you need to do is add one word, and we’re kosher -
That’s an ill-advised gamble an on unnecessary contract, and they likely lost.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 5, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, even that was more snarky than it needed to be. I do think Eric has both encapsulated and subsequently reconciled the entire gist of the argument. I am duly impressed, and willing to sign off right there.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
“That” being my first response, not Eric’s post, of course.
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
JVR is going to be an excellent player for someone. Hopefully it’s the Flyers.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Mar 2, 2012 7:25 AM EST via mobile reply actions
John Leclair is going to be an excellent player for someone. Hopefully it’s the Canadiens.
/imagining the words of a Montreal fan from 93-94.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 7:39 AM EST up reply actions
ehhhhh
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 7:49 AM EST up reply actions
?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Mar 2, 2012 8:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t agree with you that he’ll be an excellent player.
Very good possibly, but not excellent
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Fair enough.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Mar 2, 2012 9:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
and I’d prefer him to stay rather than go, especially this offseason. He wouldn’t have his best trade value
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
I hope he stays here, but I think the loudest fans will always have a problem with him.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
The Bryzantine Empire did not just end.
Simply lost in woods
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 7:56 AM EST reply actions
I figure if I had to read all of this bullshit hate on Bryz shoved into my face, well I think I’ll return the favor
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
Honestly I didn’t see the 2nd and 3rd goal against him, I mean, I saw the 2nd, or heard it but didn’t actually see it. The first was absolutely not his fault.
Ed Snider is a crotchety old fuck.
That is all.
2nd goal was a feed to a Islander that was right on Bryz’s doorstep. I believe Hartnell forgot he was there
3rd goal was a farside shot through a screen. 2 people in between Bryz and the shooter. Bryz played where the screen was, Okposo went far post
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions
3rd was a well-placed shot.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Gotta stop reading comments on philly.com.
"I will not risk answering your question" Why we love Bob
And yes, I am a female redhead.
I saw Dr. Steve’s name and I thought I’d brandish my love for Bryz like a claymore adorned with blood on a field of battle where bodies decorate the fog-laden battlefield like stars in the clear night sky
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
Skye Boat Song?
"I will not risk answering your question" Why we love Bob
And yes, I am a female redhead.
Hell I didn’t even know what that was
but I can see why you thought so
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Hoping I could have a little input from you guys
I was at the game last night and I was sitting right behind the Bryz for most of the game. In my opinion, I thought he looked great last night. The first two goals appeared to be the defenses fault, as Bryz made the initial save on the first goal and was left out to dry on the second goal. The 3rd one appeared to be an impossible shot, still clueless as to how that went in.
What was the general consensus of his play from a tv perspective? I feel like I’ve been a big Bryz supporter recently, so I don’t know if I’ve been looking at his play from a biased standpoint of only wanting to see the good.
Jagr shoots, Jagr scores!!!!!!
From watching it at admittedly 1:30 am to 4 am, I’m liking what I’m seeing. He’s in position, challenging the opposition and being inventive.
Definitely the addition of new personnel helps as I’m hearing a lot more references to blocking than in previous games. Unfortunately we paid a big price in losing JVR to a broken foot last night.
Now if they only could tighten the defense up at the beginning of periods like a panda in spandex.
"I will not risk answering your question" Why we love Bob
And yes, I am a female redhead.
I thought he continued the positive trend of the second half of the season. He was early more often than not, covered more of the net when he went down, and “played desperate” as they say when he made an initial mistake, persevering through the entire play.
I’m looking for tells between whistles but it’s hard on TV. I have a hunch that when he’s calm and confident he sort of stands around and doesn’t do much, almost like Dryden except without leaning on his stick. He fidgets when he’s in trouble. But it’s barely a hunch.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
The stats say you are wrong. 0.875 Sv% and 3.00 GAA isn’t great.
/baiting the statheads
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 2, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, I was ready to come here and bask in the glow of a pretty nice win and somewhat commiserate over JVR but after reading the JVR discussion above I think I’m just gonna do some work today.
You guys could take the fun out of an orgy.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
"Suck it, Phaneuf. WOOOO!"
by boknows71 on Mar 2, 2012 9:05 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
You realize that you can just go have your victory orgy over here and still have fun, right?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
you’re mistaking JVR pragmatism with JVR hate
I like the guy and am happy for the win. I just don’t think he’s the bee’s knees
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
I commented on that stuff and I like JVR. I definitely didn’t think he’d improve his shot rate from last year to this year by the amount he did. If anything I think I’m a bigger fan of JVR now than I was last year. I stand by the bad value adn unnecessary risk when the Flyers extended him.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
Agreed entirely.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
“even my worst orgy was right on the money”
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
I was told it was the wrong kind.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
"Suck it, Phaneuf. WOOOO!"
thank you
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Canadian dollar and teams moving
The strength of the CAD shouldn’t have an overbearing sway on the decision to move a team north. Right now, the CAD is value is high because canada’s currency is tied to the price of petroleum. The CAD has fluctuated ~25% within the past 3 years. So how come there wasn’t a push to move teams south 3 years go when the CAD was weaker? All I’m saying is basing the decision to move a team on present day currency value is short sighted.
it generates story content. it helps keep the north vs. south controversy going, which is especially interesting given the Bettman role.
i agree, given the work in turning a huge ship like a hockey franchise (not to mention the buildings they play in) you’d want strong evidence that it was a 10-20 year trend with low risk of considerable reversal.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
OT To anyone that has any connection to the University of Illinois
Happy Unofficial!
Nothing better than being hammered at 8:30 AM.
I miss college…
And all I've done for want of wit, To mem'ry now I can't recall.
So fill to me the parting glass, Good night and joy be with you all.
JEN BAT CALL
This whole story is based on Chris Kreider leaving Boston College, signing an ELC, and then joining the Rangers this season. Pretty sure you can’t sign a college guy to an ELC for the current season, right?
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?
You sure can! It’s just not usually very smart.
OPERATION TANK IS A GO.
In an unprecedented move 9 teams in the Eastern Conference have decided to officially "pass" on the playoffs
the Rangers remind me of that boy with low self-esteem who asks out the very cute girl to prom, and she says yes. The low self-esteem haunts the boy, and causes him to make very dumb, over-compensating decisions. Decisions that will ruin his night, but at this point in time, seem like very good decisions.
I am equating the act of signing this Kreider fellow to an ELC to the boy paying for a hotel for the night
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
You can. When contracts are signed between March 1 and June 1 you get to pick whether it takes effect this season or next season; choosing to have it take effect now uses up the first year of the ELC just like it says in the article. They own his rights, he’s one of their Unsigned Draft Choices.
I’m with Ubi though, I’m dubious about the wisdom behind making the move.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 2, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Eurovision Update!
The UK will be sending Engelbert Humperdinck. Details to follow.
Bob.
by The Dark on Mar 2, 2012 9:49 AM EST via Android app reply actions
Vinny A might wanna watch this.
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - Covering the Philadelphia Flyers. Have you accepted Ilya Bryzgalov as your savior?
I dont know much about ice skating, except that it’s an incredible feeling, but isn’t that what he gets for swinging wide into the area that wasn’t refinished and then trying to cut in right where the two areas meet?
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
You know, I wonder if the resurfacing the middle hurts more than it helps. The Flyers have, on numerous occasions lost all control of the puck. This certainly isn’t that much of a rarity. The fall is but that’s only because he lost the puck so badly that he fell trying to recover.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 2, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Again my experience with ice skating is really limited (was always too poor to play ice hockey growing up), but I would think that the two surfaces play very differently and it always seems to be the same sort of area where guys are coughing up the puck on shootouts.
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, can people that actually play hockey stop arguing above about JVR’s contract and help us non-skaters out with some insight?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 2, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
When the ice gets choppy the puck bounces more. So taking it to part of the ice that has more snow will increase the chance of the puck not doing what you want. In general these guys have enough skill where that won’t really effect them that much. Seto lost the puck before he lost his edge.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
He loses the puck right where the ice transitions though, and then also falls at the transition. Maybe that is just coincidence, but I’ve always wondered if that could explain some of these fluky situations.
My guess is that the puck moves a little faster on the refinished part, and it throws off his internal timing just enough that he loses it, as he transitions from one to the other. Then as he tries to stop and recover, he also hits a slicker part of the ice, which is why he wipes out.
by hebrew hammer on Mar 2, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
It rolls on him on the “choppy” part of the ice, then he loses is it over the transition as a coincidence IMO. But yes the puck travels better over the resurfaced area. However in this instance I believe the puck rolling on him was the problem.
As far as him falling, it looked like his ankle gave out on him a bit.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
But if there’s excess water on the par that was just resurfaced it would be worse than choppy ice, no?
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 2, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
They don’t have puddles at that point (4th shot?), plus I don’t believe they do a full cut just a resurface. And if there is excess water, they have an ice crew with the squeegees to take care of it. So in general, yes puddles are horrendous, but no, that isn’t the problem here. The puck rolled on him, then he lost control of it.
being obnoxious and self righteous while ignoring the point since 9/29/11
I know that’s Devon Setoguchi without even clicking. That was so sad in so many ways.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 2, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Also: Carey Price is such a G. I love his reaction.
Keeping alive the old Vaudeville joke, "I'd rather be dead than play Philadelphia."
It’s lame that he just touched the puck for his save though. He should’ve taken a slapshot at the empty net at the other end.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
More nit-picking negativity. Last night was probably not good for my fantasy team although the Flyers got me 4G, 4As and tons of shots, it means that I’ll probably keep Matt Read on my roster even though I should probably drop him. I just can’t let him go! He’s my Nodl!
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
I just dropped Couturier and felt really sad about it.
I heart our rookies.
by LeepinLizardz on Mar 2, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Presenting your newest NHL team, the Saskatoon Ssssssshit-It’s-Cold-Up-Here!
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
As Travis mentions Saskatoon is ranked 17th in metropolitan population. The TSN article says that they’re arguing the entire province will be a draw, and it’s true that Saskatoon’s metro area is only 1/4 of the provincial population whereas Winnipeg is 60% of Manitoba’s. Saskatchewan has 1m people in it and Manitoba 1.2m.
Saskatoon’s population has grown 9.8% in the last five years, probably because of the oil boom. It has the world’s largest potash reserve and its largest publicly traded uranium company with 25-30% of the world’s production. Prices of potash have skyrocketed in the last several years and the long-term trend is upward but I only did surface research. Uranium spiked a few years ago.
Regina, the second largest city in the province, is 150 miles away. Edmonton is 300 and Calgary about 350. If they’re expecting to draw fans from great distances they’d better pray that petrol prices don’t go through the roof and that the winters are mild..
It would seem to make more sense to stuff at least one more team each in Quebec and Ontario.
Ok well I’d give myself a grade of 85 in procrastination with this one.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
But it's still cold there, right?
Good points about the population. I have trouble imagining people would/could travel that far for it and, as you say, Saskatoon accounts for a much lower percentage of the province’s population than Winnipeg does, respectively, so that kinda shoots down the “entire province” claim.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
The “entire province” claim would be better if there were a ring of cities outside but close to the metropolitan area. That said, I think Canadians would drive a considerable distance for an NHL game if the local economy is flush, the roads are clear and gas doesn’t equal half a mortgage payment.
It’s just that comparatively there are more than 20 million people in Ontario and Quebec and only three teams. They could easily absorb two more.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
I think the “entire province” claim would be an easier sell for a more compact province than it is for Saskatchewan…. I mean, someplace like Halifax could probably get away with an argument like that, but Saskatoon is certainly reaching pretty far. The NHL still needs gate receipts, so watching on TV and buying merchandise aren’t really the team’s bread and butter.
Warning: Arguing the NHL CBA with me could be hazardous to your mental health. Proceed at your own risk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 2, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
How sad and lonely do you have to be to take a pic on your cell phone of an ice girl?
"Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?"
by PraiseMartyMoose on Mar 2, 2012 10:43 AM EST reply actions
eh, you’d be surprised
"Start playing with some jam in here"
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 2, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Spank bank material. Saw 12 year olds doing it at a Sixers game of the dancers.
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
Can you please refrain from using “spank bank” and “12 year olds” in the same comment?
K. Thanks. Bye.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Truth.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 2, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
they grow up so fast.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
In the good news dept
Canes have taken Boosh off IR and sent their other reserve goalie back down.
"I will not risk answering your question" Why we love Bob
And yes, I am a female redhead.
Yessssssssssssssssss!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 2, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
They were just hiding him from Homer until after the trade deadline!
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Sigh, so now I have to find somebody to replace JVR on my fantasy roster again… Perhaps Bryan Little? Andy McDonald? Sykora? Hmm.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I replaced him with Carl Hagelin. Lolz.
I heart our rookies.
by LeepinLizardz on Mar 2, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Went with Sykora just because he has two games this weekend and Little has none, and I’m behind in my matchup. Come Monday, I might swap him for Little.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
Come Monday, it’ll be all right.
Bob.
by The Dark on Mar 2, 2012 12:43 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Bettman
Admits he’s made a few mistakes.
Care to add to his list here?
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
thanks for the link.
I wish Costas had cornered him better a few times, mostly on the matter of regular season fighting as a draw for the fanbase. Bettman seemed to be going there once when he said, in contrast to the relative absence of fighting in playoffs, “but over the course of an 82-game season” and then veered off. A bit later Costas suggested it was a marketing decision and Bettman responded with suppositions – “Some people say that taking fighting out will make others become fans” Costas should have asked what he thought, whether there is a consensus among owners and whether they had gathered any market research on the issue.
It was fun when Costas cited the NYT and Bettman started “The New York Times seems to have a fascination with this issue….which is great.” Nice recovery.
Bettman parried a lot which I think he sees as his job while the owners figure out how much they want to change things and the medical evidence develops/becomes more one-sided. I found myself less annoyed here than other times I’ve listened to him.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
I found myself less annoyed here than other times I’ve listened to him.
Guessing that wasn’t a large stretch?
G, the second coming of Foppa.
Embrace the Jagr.*
true enough. i think he’s lost weight in his face so he looks less oval/cartoonish. His voice is the same though. Eeesh.
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
This is a milestone! This is the first time I recall that FFIC and I absolutely, positively and completely disagree!
Congratulations!
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
I’ve been waiting for this moment for some time.
Actually, my first thought when I saw him was “Is he sick?”
Oh, and if you completely disagree I guess that means you think Bettman’s voice is pleasing. Sexy even. :-)
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 3, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, good comeback. Or maybe our sonic interpretations are just different (Bettman’s voice is more than half an octave above Costas’s, fyi).
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
Imagine if your Dad sounded like that, growing up……
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 3, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
I’m so pumped for going to Sunday’s game. I can’t focus at work today because that’s all I can think about. Well, I probably couldn’t focus anyway, but let’s just say it’s because I’m excited for the game.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I’m going to the Sixers game tonight. I can barely contain myself.
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
Getting a piece of the Wilt court, though. That’s fun.
by everybodyhitswoohoo on Mar 2, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think there’s any day that can’t be made just a little bit better with Regina Spektor.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
Broad Street Hockey: 582 comments on the waiving of Andreas Nodl. We aren't for the faint of heart.
Anyone hear this quote from Jagr?
“I’ve got an idea: Let’s put (G Sergei Bobrovsky) in for the first shot, then (G Ilya Bryzgalov) for the rest of the game.”
I'm kind of a dick.
HAHAHAHAHAHA, did he really say that?
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
"I think there is virtue in pissing off idiots." - Fehr and Balanced
I mentioned something about it in third period thread last night. I heard it live in postgame. He was really having fun with the reporters.
A tie may be like kissing your sister, but it's better than getting screwed by a skills competition.
I love Jagr. He really seems to have fun with the game. Unfortunately, (and I’m basing this only on my eyes) it seems like he’s turning the puck over a ton, trying to do too much by himself. I’d still love to see him in orange and black next year, though. There’s just something about having Jagr as a Flyer that I love…..
I'm kind of a dick.
He does turn it over a bit, I think it’s the same sort of thing as Carle, since he’s out there a lot and in key situations, so he’s going to turn it over and you will notice/remember more. Also, since he has the ability to do such great things, you are more disappointed when he doesn’t get an assist to G every time down the ice.
G, the second coming of Foppa.
Embrace the Jagr.*
Nhl.com had an unintentionally funny double-meaning headline earlier tonight
“Wilson Relieved”
/s, more often than not
by flyersfaninchicago on Mar 2, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
A Must Read
From PPP, just absolutely hilarious:
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2012/3/1/2838205/this-was-a-journal-entry-completed-by-one-of-my-grade-five-english#comments
There’s a link to a better view a couple of comments down, and a transcript down under that. Even though the Leafs-Sens rivalry doesn’t much matter to me, this is priceless coming from a 5th grader…..
I'm kind of a dick.
Hahahah that’s amazing
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Why Claude Giroux isn’t as good as he is made out to me
If you’re in the mood for a laugh
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 9:50 PM EST reply actions
*be
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Mar 2, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Speechless. What the government should be doing is shutting down websites like Bleacher Report that allow stories like this to reach the public.
I'm kind of a dick.
Where is that SOPA legislation now that we need it?
GMAT verbal section question, Philadelphia sports version.
In 2015, which one of the following will prove to be a better investment?
(a) Ilya Bryzgalov's contract (b) Ryan Howard's extension (c) Mike Vick's extension (d) Greek bonds from 2009 (e) Papelbon's bloat deal
One could easily extend that to so many possible things … Rush Limbaugh, Rachel Maddow, Fox News, any weather report not originating with the National Weather Service …
Maxime Talbot - in the Orange and Black ... better than chocolate and peanut butter!
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 5, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions

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