FanPost

How Good Were Timonen and Giroux? (Fun With behindthenet.ca)

So this past weekend I was playing around with behindthenet.ca and came onto something pretty neat. If you click “view more rows” at the bottom of the screen and have the settings to “all teams”, you can view every player in the league in a given year. You can then copy and paste whichever stats you want (I like looking at Corsi Rel QoC, Corsi Rel QoT, OZS%, G+A1, CRel---to get a good look at the situations the player was deployed in and how he performed in those situations in both possession and scoring metrics adjusted for time on ice) to excel. You can then do this for every year since 2007-08 for both forwards and defenders and have a serious database.


Using my “Defensive Database” I wanted to find players deployed in situations similar to Kimmo Timonen and compare how Kimmo was holding up against those players. Below are the seven players who have had seasons with 1.0-1.5 CRel QoC, 1.35+ CRel QoT, and O-Zone Start % of 51.1 or higher (2.5% below Kimmo’s 53.6%):

SEASON NAME TEAM GP ESTOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% G/60 A1/60 Crel G+A1
2011-2012 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 76 13.29 1.22 1.431 53.6 0 0.65 8.2 0.65
2011-2012 Season JASONGARRISON FLA 77 17.74 1.015 2.076 53.7 0.31 0.22 10.8 0.53
2007-2008 Season BRENTSEABROOK CHI 82 15.12 1.014 1.368 52.8 0.19 0.24 0.4 0.43
2009-2010 Season NICKLASLIDSTROM DET 82 17.49 1.075 3.649 51.7 0.13 0.29 10.6 0.42
2011-2012 Season DANBOYLE S.J 81 19.26 1.199 2.717 54.2 0.15 0.23 1.7 0.38
2008-2009 Season BRENTSEABROOK CHI 82 16.65 1.315 1.348 51.7 0.13 0.22 1 0.35
2009-2010 Season ROBYNREGEHR CGY 81 16.61 1.474 1.393 51.1 0.09 0.13 -3 0.22

Below is another guy who has been stealing some headlines with his retirement as of late. The only reason he didn’t fit into the original group is because he played with not only better teammates, but also a substantially higher zone start %:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP ESTOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% G/60 A1/60 Crel G+A1
2011-2012 Season NICKLASLIDSTROM DET 70 17.55 1.441 2.779 57.1 0.34 0.15 8.9 0.49
2007-2008 Season NICKLASLIDSTROM DET 76 16.87 1.209 4.529 56.8 0.19 0.37 4.4 0.56

As you can see, Kimmo’s G+A1/60 was higher than everyone in BOTH tables at .65 (the average of only the top group’s G+A1 is only .43). His Corsi Rel is third behind Jason Garrison’s 2011-12 year (which was very impressive) and Nicklas Lidstrom’s 2009-2010 season. Yes, Kimmo is only playing 13.3 minutes/60, but his numbers are clearly the best of any of the all stars on the list. He’s also playing big PK and PP minutes.

If you want to take into account playing under 14 even strength minutes/60, the numbers are just as impressive, although the names on the list are not as impressive. The below table is including players who play less than 14 ESTOI/60, have above average CRel QoC, and are within 2.5% of Kimmo’s 53.6 OZS% or higher:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP ESTOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% G/60 A1/60 Crel G+A1
2008-2009 Season MARKGIORDANO CGY 58 12.36 0.184 0.033 63.8 0 0.33 0.33 14.6
2007-2008 Season MAGNUSJOHANSSON FLA 45 11.94 0.177 0.559 58 0 0.33 0.33 10.5
2007-2008 Season TOMPREISSING L.A 77 13.74 0.164 1.462 52.8 0.11 0.17 0.28 9.6
2011-2012 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 76 13.29 1.22 1.431 53.6 0 0.65 0.65 8.2
2007-2008 Season MARKSTREIT MTL 81 11.32 0.277 -0.107 51 0.39 0.52 0.91 3.5
2009-2010 Season DAVISDREWISKE L.A 42 13.67 0.069 1.044 52.2 0.1 0.42 0.52 3
2007-2008 Season CRAIGWELLER PHX 59 9.99 0.785 0.154 51.5 0.31 0.31 0.62 -0.1
2008-2009 Season DUSTINBYFUGLIEN CHI 77 11.98 0.256 0.167 57.7 0.72 0.26 0.98 -1.3
2008-2009 Season MARKEATON PIT 68 13.78 0.095 1.61 50.4 0.13 0.06 0.19 -1.4
2007-2008 Season NICKLASGROSSMAN DAL 62 13.19 0.195 1.544 50.6 0 0.15 0.15 -2.1
2009-2010 Season NICLASWALLIN S.J 70 13.82 0.362 0.507 51.2 0 0.25 0.25 -2.9
2008-2009 Season MARKFISTRIC DAL 36 13 0.266 0.002 50.9 0 0.26 0.26 -3
2007-2008 Season MATTGREENE EDM 46 13.59 0.13 0.81 53.2 0 0 0 -4.4
2007-2008 Season PAULMARA NYR 61 13.54 0.026 -1.661 61 0.07 0.29 0.36 -6.8
2007-2008 Season ANDREWWOZNIEWSKI TOR 48 11.21 0.085 0.35 53.1 0.22 0.22 0.44 -7
2008-2009 Season PAULMARA NYR 76 13.7 0.224 0.528 60.2 0.23 0.12 0.35 -7.6
2007-2008 Season SEANO'DONNELL ANA 82 13.18 1.067 -1.663 51.5 0.06 0.17 0.23 -8.6
2007-2008 Season MILANJURCINA WSH 75 13.71 0.154 0.4 51.2 0 0.06 0.06 -10
2010-2011 Season SHAONEMORRISONN BUF 62 13.74 0.276 -0.116 50.6 0 0.21 0.21 -10.4

Of the 19 guys on the list, Kimmo ranks 4th in Corsi Rel at 8.2, well above the average of .37, and 3rd in G+A1 at .65 with the average of .25. Of the three guys with better Corsi scores than Kimmo, he has roughly double all of their G+A1’s, and the two guys who do have better G+A1’s have Corsi scores of 3.5 and -1.3.

Lastly, lets take a look at his past five years:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP ESTOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% G/60 A1/60 Crel G+A1
2011-2012 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 76 13.29 1.22 1.431 0 0.65 8.2 53.6 0.65
2010-2011 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 82 15.04 1.024 1.324 0.15 0.39 3.2 49.3 0.54
2009-2010 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 82 14.76 0.603 1.158 0.1 0.1 3.5 52.8 0.2
2008-2009 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 77 14.74 1.171 -1.106 0.05 0.32 -4.6 47 0.37
2007-2008 Season KIMMOTIMONEN PHI 80 14.49 0.532 1.408 0.26 0 4 47.4 0.26

Over .5 CRQoC every year with OZS% ranging from 47-54%, winning the possession battle four of five years (the only year his Corsi was below 0, his CRQoT was -1.1) and averaging .4 G+A1.

On to the “Offensive Database” to take a look at Claude Giroux’s season and who we can compare his numbers to. Four players had CRQoC of .8-.85, CRQoT above 2.0, and OZS% from 46.6-50.6:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP TOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% ESG/60 ESA1/60 G+A1 Crel
2009-2010 Season MIKERICHARDS PHI 82 14.09 0.811 1.78 46.8 0.83 0.26 1.09 4.6
2010-2011 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 82 13.61 0.821 2.056 49.2 0.75 1.29 2.04 14.1
2011-2012 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 77 14.57 0.805 3.374 48.1 1.02 1.02 2.04 6.9
2009-2010 Season MASONRAYMOND VAN 82 13.33 0.8 3.653 49.1 0.93 0.66 1.59 13.8
2010-2011 Season ANDREWLADD ATL 81 14.4 0.824 3.76 50.6 0.87 0.67 1.54 9.5

With four more guys with similar metrics except they had slightly worse teammates:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP TOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% ESG/60 ESA1/60 G+A1 Crel
2011-2012 Season ERICSTAAL CAR 82 15.72 0.826 0.298 50.1 0.61 0.93 1.54 6.6
2009-2010 Season R.J.UMBERGER CBJ 82 13.07 0.79 0.327 46.7 0.78 0.56 1.34 -6.5
2009-2010 Season MILANHEJDUK COL 56 14.5 0.826 1.289 47.5 0.96 0.52 1.48 5.3
2010-2011 Season PASCALDUPUIS PIT 81 13.39 0.828 1.332 48.9 0.72 0.55 1.27 -9.2

Oddly enough, Giroux’s 2010-11 situtaions were nearly identical to his 2011-12’s situations. Richie pops up on that list also. Although his 2011-12 Corsi Rel was slightly below the group’s 9.78 average, his 2.0 G+A1 for both years are substantially the best numbers of either group.

(Side: Those who don’t think CRQoT is important, the average CRel and G+A1 of the group with 2.0+ teammates was 1.66 G+A1 and 9.78 CRel. The group with teammates from 0-2.0: 1.41 G+A1 and a CRel of 9.78.)

His G+A1 numbers were so impressive I decided to see how they ranked against everyone who played competition greater than +.5 and had an OZS% less than 50%. Claude, yet again, stood out:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP TOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% ESG/60 ESA1/60 G+A1 Crel
2010-2011 Season STEVENSTAMKOS T.B 82 14.6 0.599 0.716 49.8 1.35 0.95 2.3 0.8
2007-2008 Season JASONPOMINVILLE BUF 82 13.06 1.306 -0.911 49.2 1.29 0.95 2.24 0.6
2010-2011 Season PAVELDATSYUK DET 56 14.94 1.175 -0.107 47.7 1.08 1.08 2.16 9.1
2008-2009 Season TIMCONNOLLY BUF 48 12.29 0.847 -0.688 46.3 1.12 1.02 2.14 -1
2008-2009 Season JEFFCARTER PHI 82 14.14 0.785 -0.045 40.6 1.4 0.72 2.12 -1.4
2010-2011 Season MARTINST.LOUIS T.B 82 15.24 0.622 1.117 48.6 1.25 0.86 2.11 -2.2
2009-2010 Season JOEPAVELSKI S.J 67 13.43 0.767 1.265 48.1 1.4 0.67 2.07 5.5
2011-2012 Season PATRICEBERGERON BOS 81 13.72 0.52 7.116 47.6 0.81 1.24 2.05 18.5
2011-2012 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 77 14.57 0.805 3.374 48.1 1.02 1.02 2.04 6.9
2010-2011 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 82 13.61 0.821 2.056 49.2 0.75 1.29 2.04 14.1

Only eight players since the 2007-08 season generated more offence than Claude Giroux. He was number 9 and 10, the only player to show up twice in the top-10. Yes his CRQoT is better than the majority of the rest of the top-10, his CRQoC score’s are 2nd and 3rd highest. Claude’s Corsi scores also stand out. The average Corsi Rel of players ranking 1-8 was 3.74, Claude was 14.1 last year and 6.9 this year, good for 2nd and 4th respectively among the top-10.

Here are his career numbers:

SEASON NAME TEAM GP TOI/60 CRQoC CRQoT OZS% ESG/60 ESA1/60 G+A1 Crel
2011-2012 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 77 14.57 0.805 3.374 48.1 1.02 1.02 2.04 6.9
2010-2011 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 82 13.61 0.821 2.056 49.2 0.75 1.29 2.04 14.1
2009-2010 Playoffs CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 23 12.82 0.612 4.335 60.1 1.22 1.02 2.24 16.1
2009-2010 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 82 12.38 0.204 1.789 50.6 0.47 0.95 1.42 0
2008-2009 Season CLAUDEGIROUX PHI 42 12.53 -0.087 0.183 51 0.8 0.91 1.71 11.6

Ever since his 2009-10 post season, Claude Giroux has been simply fantastic in any metric you can find. He’s dominating top competition and is showing no signs of stopping.

What do you guys think?

This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by <em>Broad Street Hockey</em>.

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